Progesterone, premenopause and LC

[CestMoiMJ]

A recent rash of old symptoms have cropped up and the topic of progesterone cream as a possible course of action has come up. Because it has been determined that I have estrogen dominance...the dose will be a little higher in the beginning and I was told I can expect to see some weight gain as my body wakes up and realizes that it's receptors have been sleeping in.

I was also told that morbidly obese women who lose alot of weight will often find themselves in this position when the fat is turned to fuel and releases the stored estrogen into the body. Suddenly, there's all this unopposed estrogen with no progesterone to balance it all out. So if you're experiencing hair loss, heart palpitations, mood swings, hot flashes, night sweats, cold hands and feet, insomnia, increased cycles, painful cycles, fibrocystic masses in breasts and/or other symptoms....you may want to consider speaking with your dr about the possiblity of a hormone imbalance.

Now...has anyone here experienced anything like this or is using progesterone cream? How is it affecting your weight loss? How are you feeling? Did the symptoms subside?

TIA!

[Lucky4]

Hi,
I have PCOS--and consequently estrogen dominance. I've been using natural progesterone cream for years (Walmart menapausal formula) without all the side affects you listed. If anything, the cream has helped me-although I still have bad PMS problems-like cravings.
I found I also was not using enough. I have upped my dosage to a good glob starting day 7 of my cycle. Last month for the first time, I had a regualar cycle. And, I believe I'm ovulating again.
My own personal experience is that the estrogen dumping will not happen that fast. NP is mild--not like the synthetic junk which tore my body apart every time I took in in the past. I have been losing weight slowly as well--so I haven't noticed the estrogen problems that some some women do. In fact, on Kimmer's fast and Stillmans I tend to lose about a lb every 2 days--first week on Kimmer's I lost 10-11lbs--so NP slowing weight loss was not an issue for me at all.
I did have hair loss as well--Dr. told me to give it 6 months. I have noticed now that the hair loss has stopped--and if it's not my imagination, it's even getting better--I can hardly notice it now unless my hair is oily. So keeping it clean is a plus--as well, I heard that the male androgens that cause the hair loss in the first place also accululate in the oils of the scalp--so keeping the hair clean helps to keep it from penetrating again.
Hope this helps. I'm not an expert and I'm still on a never-ending search for this hormonal balance thing. But, NP is something I will use forever and I recommend it to friends and my daughter as well.
There are a few good articles I posted once in the health section--but you can go to www.drlam.com and get these articles--look for the ones on estrogen dominance, PCOS and progesterone. Ironcially, I may start my DH on NP as well--men can get into estrogen dominance as well due to our environment--and Dh has prostate problems in his family so Dr. told him to be careful. The dose for men is half that for women.
BTW, symptoms of estrogen dominance also are almost identical to hypothyroidism--might want to check that out.
Lucky4

[nonstickpam107]

I've said this at least a thousand times, lol. I had ALL the symptoms of estrogen dominance (yep, the whole LIST). But....guess what? The same list is the list for thyroid disease, and part of the list is the same for low ferritin and LOW estrogen, and unbalanced testosterone. Hmmm.

So...I don't know what your LABS look like to have 'estrogen dominance' but after working with over 2 THOUSAND peri and post meno women...I have NEVER seen estrogen dominance....unless the patient had something 'else' going on (usually a hormone IMbalance, OR thyroid disease that went unor under treated).

So...I took a book 'to heart', went out and bought some progesterone cream (extra awful, as it was derived partly from SOY which slowed my thyroid even MORE..it was a rather inferior brand though). I put just a little, teensy dab on every night and in a week or so....at first I felt good, slept like a log.

Well, then...about a month into it....I blew up like a balloon. I bloated, packed on ten pounds, etc. That's when I went to the doctor and FINALLY had blood tests. I wasn't estrogen DOMINANT...I had NO estrogen! And when your estrogen goes belly up (and your progesterone) the thyroid decides to take over all the work for those two hormones. Well, then the thyroid goes belly up.

Instead of using a symptom list, patients should go get a simple blood (or salivary if your doc does that, although it hasn't been as accurate for me and several thousand other women) test for estradiol, estriol, estrone, testosterone, progesterone, TSH, FT4, FT3, TPO antibodes. This covers your hormones and thyroid hormones.

Then, try and find a doc who rx's bio identical HRT. The compounded progesterone is a JOY to use (is you need it)...much better than anything you can get OTC. You can call around to your local pharmacies and find one that does compounding of bio identical HRT, and they will tell you which doc's in area rx. it.

Pam

[Queeny]

Wow I am on my third year of menopause............I get hot flashes, night sweats, cold hands and feet, I don't feel I get the mood swings.............I hate my gyno and need to find a new one.

Last time I was in for a pap test as she was doing the pap test she complained it was hard for to do because I was so overweight...........I could have died............

I don't take prempro or premarin but I use to. I guess I am scared to take that stuff from all that I have heard. I have some cream but have never used it.

I lose very slowly. I lost fast the first 6 months then nothing...........maybe 2 pounds a month


I did have my thyroid checked and it was normal. I wish I new more of what to do for my body. I have heard of bio identical hormone replacement........but don't know much or how to go about finding someone who does it.

[CestMoiMJ]

Originally posted by nonstickpam107
I've said this at least a thousand times, lol. I had ALL the symptoms of estrogen dominance (yep, the whole LIST). But....guess what? The same list is the list for thyroid disease, and part of the list is the same for low ferritin and LOW estrogen, and unbalanced testosterone. Hmmm.

So...I don't know what your LABS look like to have 'estrogen dominance' but after working with over 2 THOUSAND peri and post meno women...I have NEVER seen estrogen dominance....unless the patient had something 'else' going on (usually a hormone IMbalance, OR thyroid disease that went unor under treated).

So...I took a book 'to heart', went out and bought some progesterone cream (extra awful, as it was derived partly from SOY which slowed my thyroid even MORE..it was a rather inferior brand though). I put just a little, teensy dab on every night and in a week or so....at first I felt good, slept like a log.

Well, then...about a month into it....I blew up like a balloon. I bloated, packed on ten pounds, etc. That's when I went to the doctor and FINALLY had blood tests. I wasn't estrogen DOMINANT...I had NO estrogen! And when your estrogen goes belly up (and your progesterone) the thyroid decides to take over all the work for those two hormones. Well, then the thyroid goes belly up.

Instead of using a symptom list, patients should go get a simple blood (or salivary if your doc does that, although it hasn't been as accurate for me and several thousand other women) test for estradiol, estriol, estrone, testosterone, progesterone, TSH, FT4, FT3, TPO antibodes. This covers your hormones and thyroid hormones.

Then, try and find a doc who rx's bio identical HRT. The compounded progesterone is a JOY to use (is you need it)...much better than anything you can get OTC. You can call around to your local pharmacies and find one that does compounding of bio identical HRT, and they will tell you which doc's in area rx. it.

Pam

I've had bloodwork done and it's clear that I have unopposed estrogen (nd markedly low progesterone). Thyroid tests came back smack dab in the center of the normal range. I was given progesterone pills last year when I was first tested. I noticed a slight ebb in my symptoms for a couple of months - and then they came back. I THEN started Atkins and felt better.

Over the past few months, however, my periods went haywire and I've developed fibro-cysts. The symptoms I listed are what I'm presently experiencing and hoping the cream will make the difference.

I am 2 years into Atkins and have been on maintenance since September. My hair loss continues although my carbs are back up to 60-80 (net) per day.

I haven't had the salivary test done but would like to. I hear it's far more accurate than the blood tests.

Thanks for the input, ladies. Much appreciated. I may simply get a referral to see an endo...but still thinking of going cream instead of the progesterone pills.

[nonstickpam107]

MJ,

Than, you are saying that BOTH your FreeT4 and FreeT3 are in the MIDDLE of their respective ranges? Or are you saying that your TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone, which is really a pituitary test) was "in the middle" and was that the "new" range (which is ..35-3.0)??

If your doc did NOT do FT tests than you don't know if your thyroid is "normal". And a lack of progesterone is usually what shoves the thyroid into full arrest.

I did NOT have 'estrogen dominance'....I had unbalanced hormones. When the progesterone starts to fail (this is what happens in menopause), then your thyroid can't work without it. If your progesterone is low, than of course your estrogen will be high...the thyroid is trying to work FOR the progesterone. It happens about 90% of the time in post-peri meno women, that's why it is SO important to see your FT4 and FT3 levels. You can get a copy from the doc (if he/she even did them).

I only got through about 8 months of those symptoms before (after testing my cortisol, all my sex hormones, my FT's, etc. ) my endo realized that half the symptoms (yes, even the hot flashes and especially any heart palpitations) were thyroid related, not menopause related.

Pam

[CestMoiMJ]

Originally posted by nonstickpam107
MJ,

Than, you are saying that BOTH your FreeT4 and FreeT3 are in the MIDDLE of their respective ranges? Or are you saying that your TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone, which is really a pituitary test) was "in the middle" and was that the "new" range (which is ..35-3.0)??

If your doc did NOT do FT tests than you don't know if your thyroid is "normal". And a lack of progesterone is usually what shoves the thyroid into full arrest.

Man...I really don't know. He just said that the thyroid tests placed me right in the middle of 'normal' range. More proof that I need to see an endo, eh?

Hmmm....now I definitely don't want to start anything without seeing one. Crap, Pam....not what I *wanted* to hear...but really glad to have the info and some of the right questions to ask . Thank you.

:::warning - totally childish, 40-something rant ahead:::

Oh WAH! <and stomping feet> I'm having visions of endless appointments with this Dr and that one, a freaking bottle line-up on my bathroom counter necessitating a revision of my algebra skills and mortgaging the house in order to be able to take them all (and knowing that somewhere, there's a pregnant horse named Nellie supplying her inhuman hormones to screw up my body even more). Then there'll be the 3 years of endless experimentation to get the right balance of 'pills'...finally. I'll have to get a bigger purse to carry one of those butt-ugly, plastic SMTWTHS pill boxes (like my MIL's). Next thing you know, I'll be wearing yellow foam curlers and wake up with a 'shroud-of-Calcutta-looking' pillowcase from all the different moisturizers I'll have to wear to keep my face from doing the raisin thang. I'll have to become reasonable and dye my hair some un-fun color or risk becoming a carricature of myself. Oh...and dying my upper lip. I can see it coming.

I gave up nicotine and caffeine and UV rays and sugars and most starches, you know. I no longer use tampons and avoid perfumed lotions,'for my own good'. I make healthy (ier) food choices and stay active. Crap - I even wear Birkenstocks around the property to be good to my arches and lower back. :::sigh::: I deserve to have everything fixed with just a dab of cream!!!!!!

Okay...I don't mind telling you that was kinda fun!

[nonstickpam107]

Oh, I know....I'm going through it too...all of us eventually do. And just finding "any endo" won't do it up for ya either. But...I can help get ya closer to finding THE doctor (who would do all bio identical hormones AND thyroid). Here is a patient recommended list. This doesn't mean YOU would be satisfied with the same doctor as the poster of the rec.....but look for 'clues'...like "doctor Rx's Armour Thyroid and gets my TSH down to UNDER a 1 (that's NORMAL!!) and does Free T4 and Free T3 testing).

http://www.thyroid-info.com/topdrs/missouri.htm and if I mispelled missouri, than change it, lol.

I take: Bi-est (this is bio identical compounded estradiol and estriol, two out of the three estrogens that the human body makes. It is from plant bases, NOT horse pizz.

I take: progesterone compounded transdermal cream (because most of the PILLS aren't PROGESTERONE, they are progesTINS, a synthetic product that shouldn't be in YOUR body (please feed it to the nearest HORSE). Horses have over 17 estrogens, none of which are found in OUR bodies.

I take: Armour Thyroid (I have mine compounded...to be time released).

Um, that's all for my post meno/thyroid medication. VOILA. Not a TON of pills. And I, too, quit smoking after 30 years, 2 pks. a day...I'm three years quit on April Fool's Day.

You CAN call your doctor and request YOUR (yes, they belong to YOU) med lab tests for thyroid and sex hormones, and NO, I'm sorry, salivary labs for estradiol and progesterone are NOT better and more accurate than blood tests. I get overdosed EVERY time if they do salivary (because of my THYROID disease). Salivary adrenal testing IS more accurate.

The poster saying she wants bio identicals? Do a search for your State for bio identical HRT, and call around to your pharmacies, find out who does compounding, they have a LIST of docs. Also, any "Medicine Shoppe" franchise does wonderful compounding of bio identicals.

And...I hope you know...if you eat soy on a regular basis (that would be more than a teaspoon three times a WEEK), it will skew your estrogen.....will make it look very high on a salivary test, and will slow your thyroid down. You can't have soy if you have thyroid disease. AND...last but not least (I JUST gave a lecture on all of this, lol)....EATING SOY will ALWAYS raise your estrogen....and will always bind the thyroid hormones. ALWAYS. Especially AMERICAN soy. It has every bit as much estrogen (phytoestrogens) in it as birth control pills do.

I hope this helps. If I can help you in any way to obtain bio identical HRT, or thyroid help (and keep in mind that ONE out of TEN women in the US have Hashimoto's disease...that's autoimmune hypothyroid....the antibodies attack and destroy the thyroid...but that can take five, ten years or more, all the while doctors will tell you it's menopause and to "tough it out". I have yet to see a male in andropause with declining testosterone levels "tough it out" until they are on "empty"

[CestMoiMJ]

More great advice. Thanks, Pam.

Also forgot to mention that my 'normal' body temp runs 97, give or take a 1/10th. This week, I've been fighting a cold and feeling like total crap.

[nonstickpam107]

Oh, that nasty ol' bug is going around. I JUST got over an anaphylactic reaction this past week (I ate a peach, after not having had any for over two years...I shoulda KNOWN!) and NOW, I have strep. I've been really halfway 'well' (for me anyway) this winter so I guess it's gonna catch up with me.

Yes, my doctors (pulmonologist and internist) know that if I have a 'fever'...that's anything over 98 degrees for me. Yeah, that low temp can also be low ferritin, and I forgot to mention THAT. Low ferritin (that would be anything under 70 for a female, and that is stored iron...the test is called "ferritin" and it's amazing how many docs think that any number in any lab range means "normal") mimics hypothyroidism, right down to the temp of the body.

Are you missing the outer third of your eyebrows?

Pam

[CestMoiMJ]

Originally posted by nonstickpam107
Oh, that nasty ol' bug is going around. I JUST got over an anaphylactic reaction this past week (I ate a peach, after not having had any for over two years...I shoulda KNOWN!) and NOW, I have strep. I've been really halfway 'well' (for me anyway) this winter so I guess it's gonna catch up with me.

Yes, my doctors (pulmonologist and internist) know that if I have a 'fever'...that's anything over 98 degrees for me. Yeah, that low temp can also be low ferritin, and I forgot to mention THAT. Low ferritin (that would be anything under 70 for a female, and that is stored iron...the test is called "ferritin" and it's amazing how many docs think that any number in any lab range means "normal") mimics hypothyroidism, right down to the temp of the body.

Are you missing the outer third of your eyebrows?

Pam

Well....they're thinner but I'm just a victim of the 70's. They grow sparse in outer third. Leg hair is doing JUST find, however. Noticed more growth on inside of upper thighs. Shhh...don't tell.

[Karinala]

The 'peri' caught my eye, which is probably where I lie. I have not had a period since I got into eating LC, over a year ago-had some light spotting several times, but nothing dramatic. My gyno says not to worry about it. I have absolutely no symptoms of menopause, except the absence of periods-I am disgustingly healthy and have been for a long while-take no medicines for anything (including bc) Did losing weight quickly on a lc plan (this is my second go-period did not return during my 'hiatus' of approximately 6 months) possibly cause my periods to stop prematurely?

[smileybrunette]

I agree totally with nonstickpam about soy. I got pounding migraines on hrt, until my general practitioner told me I might be getting so many and such severe ones from the estrogen in the hrt. So he recommended I quit, which I did, and the headaches ceased. But he then recommended I take soy supplements. Well, guess what? I got headaches again from those. So I stopped that as well. Evidently they do raise your estrogen level, and I felt awful when I was on them. I now take just 2/3 of a capsule daily of Wild Mexican Yam which is a natural plant progesterone. I feel fantastic on it and no more headaches.

[Lucky4]

Hey nonstickPam--since you're here, I'll just ask it now. You had asked a while back for my thyroid tests--had to have DH send them to me. But, I don't see a Free T3 here.
These results were about 3 years ago--I hope to get to a specialized Dr. soon to re-do these.

T3 uptake 31.7 (you said this wasn't needed right)?
T3 114
TSH .43
T4 Free (non-dialysis --whatever that means) 1.2

Are you saying that without the free T3, I still don't know if I have a problem or not? If you recall, Dr.s have always told me I'm borderline high--and wonder why I'm fat

I think these were the only ones related to the thyroid that she took. She took the sex hormones--progest. was almost non-existent--but has been since I was probably 12. Everything else--she said I was normal. Paid a louzy $100 for her to examine my under-the-chin facial hair. Something I already knew--and I was unofficially diagnosed by my OB/GYN with PCOS a few years earlier. Life is sweet huh?
If I don't have estrogen dominance--I still have low to no progesterone--so the NP works great for me. I haven't ever been regular in my life except once when I was in a village overseas. I lost 75 lbs without trying and my periods came like clockwork. 3 Dr.s told me to get out of America--too many chemicals
Anyway, I appreciate your feedback.
Lucky4

[Blondyi40]

This is all so interesting although a little confusing. Pam I am going to have the testing done in the next few weeks just waiting for some money to come in and I am sure once the tests are done it won't be so confusing. My best friend has been a vegetarian for over 30 yrs and has always eaten soy stuff prob everyday. She is now taking the natural hormones for menopause but still eats soy (although she is 5'7 and weighs 112 lbs) I am going to show her this today because it seems to me if she keeps eating soy she is just destroying the progress she is getting from the natural hormones although she said she hasnt felt better in her life as she does now.. Anyway thanks for all of the info Pam and I saved all of the info u sent me in the PM.
Linda

[nonstickpam107]

I need each lab range for each of those lab results. ALL labs are different in the ranges. Otherwise, who knows? The T3 Uptake denotes hypothyroidism. Hypothyroidism and PCOS go hand in hand, unfortunately. So does adrenal hyperplasia (LOCAH). So does Hashimoto's.

I know a LOT of vegetarians that have hyPERthyroidism, too (because that can be caused by Graves' disease, which is the autoimmune form of hyPERthyroid). I've seen just a few vegans and vegetarians who were unaffected by the soy once they reached peri and post menopause (like, 2 in about 40). I also know vegetarians who don't consume ANY soy.

Pam