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Old 04-21-2014, 01:31 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Madmarsha View Post
Yeah, I'm digging this thread. I guess I think of this "concept" as more a maintenance thing; however, it's a delicate balance between being in weight loss mode without being on a "diet" and just eating for hunger. I mean, at some point, you can't keep losing weight. But if I continue to eat the same and I am not at goal, I am going to have to figure something out.
Hey MadM, your thoughts are interesting. It'd be fascinating to rank our values, wouldn't it?
Would an ideal number on the scale be the most important thing? Or would freedom be first?
Could I be happy restraining for the rest of my life for a number? Could I be happy if I never reached the number?

I totally understand combining dieting measures with HDE, hoping for a good result. (I think Green is doing this too, with Juddd. I was too, initially.)

My sense is that this won't work for me. In one of the books it mentioned that this won't work as long as we're looking at it as a diet and keeping other diet options on deck in case this doesn't yield the weight loss goals we have in mind. Maybe I shouldn't have read that. And I know that there are a thousand books that say a thousand things. But this concept is ringing so loudly for me that I suspect it's my path. I truly believe that my head needs to leave the diet think behind. I also truly believe that I'll be effortlessly lean in the end.

I'll look forward to watching your trip through this. So much to learn. Or unlearn, for me.
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Old 04-21-2014, 01:32 PM   #92
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The Tahari

So I just had that amazing lunch and all of a sudden I'm in a panic again. I'm thinking there's no way in this world I can eat like this every day and not gain weight. There's absolutely no way I'll ever lose those 5 pounds having sausage biscuits, cool ranch Doritos, blueberry biscuits, and carrot cake. No way!

My first instinct was to weigh, and my second instinct was to fast tomorrow. But since I've made a pact with myself, for now those aren't options. So I weighed my options. It's the middle of the day, just after I've eaten, but I decided to measure my waist, abdomen, and hips anyway. Ok. No problem. They're still where they were early in the morning the last time I measured a couple of weeks ago. But, that's not helping. I'm still afraid I've gotten fat in the past two hours. Then I thought, "The Tahari, I'll try on the Tahari."

Now, the Tahari is the holy grail outfit I wore on December 1st when I crashed headlong into a 4-month binge of self sabotage. It's the one that always tells the gut-wrenching truth. So I decided if I'm going to torment myself, why not go for the jugular. And guess what?

It looks great! As a matter of fact, it fits just like it did on December 1st! How is this possible? This has to be one of the strangest things I've ever seen. It is very unnerving. It just shouldn't be working like this.

I have this fear that somehow the Tahari stretched over the winter and it's really not a reliable gauge. I fear I'll step onto the scales May 1st and be greeted with a 5-pound gain. I'm afraid it's all just another hoax. After all, can it really be possible to have your carrot cake and your Tahari, too?
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Old 04-21-2014, 01:37 PM   #93
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So I just had that amazing lunch and all of a sudden I'm in a panic again. I'm thinking there's no way in this world I can eat like this every day and not gain weight. There's absolutely no way I'll ever lose those 5 pounds having sausage biscuits, cool ranch Doritos, blueberry biscuits, and carrot cake. No way!

My first instinct was to weigh, and my second instinct was to fast tomorrow. But since I've made a pact with myself, for now those aren't options. So I weighed my options. It's the middle of the day, just after I've eaten, but I decided to measure my waist, abdomen, and hips anyway. Ok. No problem. They're still where they were early in the morning the last time I measured a couple of weeks ago. But, that's not helping. I'm still afraid I've gotten fat in the past two hours. Then I thought, "The Tahari, I'll try on the Tahari."

Now, the Tahari is the holy grail outfit I wore on December 1st when I crashed headlong into a 4-month binge of self sabotage. It's the one that always tells the gut-wrenching truth. So I decided if I'm going to torment myself, why not go for the jugular. And guess what?

It looks great! As a matter of fact, it fits just like it did on December 1st! How is this possible? This has to be one of the strangest things I've ever seen. It is very unnerving. It just shouldn't be working like this.

I have this fear that somehow the Tahari stretched over the winter and it's really not a reliable gauge. I fear I'll step onto the scales May 1st and be greeted with a 5-pound gain. I'm afraid it's all just another hoax. After all, can it really be possible to have your carrot cake and your Tahari, too?
Yeah, the Tahari stretched over the winter.
Tell me dieting hasn't made us insane.
Good on you, CC. I'm thrilled for you!
(I feel some part of me saying, trust, grasshopper, trust.)
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Old 04-21-2014, 06:19 PM   #94
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Y'all.. I Love it all.

Joy joy, your freedom, peace, and certainty blow me away. I'm convinced this is the path for you. I'm so excited for ya!

And CC! The tahari and carrot cake are a winning duo. Beautiful!!!
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Old 04-21-2014, 07:00 PM   #95
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I'm enjoying reading "The Overfed Head." It has the same basic information as Josie Spinardi's book, but from another perspective.

It's a strange place to be, moving away from diets after so many years and just listening to my body's hunger and satiety signals. I find I'm spending alot of thought checking in with myself this morning. "I'm hungry." "No, I just want something to eat, because I can still feel my breakfast in my stomach." "What will I want for lunch?" "Just wait til you're hungry and then you'll know." "Why do I want to eat right now since I'm not hungry?" "What am I anxious about?" "Am I sure I'm not hungry?"

He asks in the book if dieting and weight loss weren't a problem anymore, what would you talk about? Isn't that true? How much of our time is invested in talking, reading, and thinking about diets, nutrition, and weight loss? I have to say that, especially over the past 3 years, it has been all-consuming for me. Now that things are more simplified it's almost like I'm clinging to the habit, afraid to let it go. It actually feels a little sad. Like breaking up, like losing an old friend, like moving away from your hometown. And like starting a new life, it's more than a little unsettling.
Oh, I just saw this! I understand the ongoing hunger check. It's so interesting, isn't it? And wild to imagine that it'll become automatic.
And yes, I wonder what will go on in my head when this identity is dropped for good.
In one of the books they mentioned mourning the loss of the identity. I can understand that.
Fabulous discussion. Thanks.
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Old 04-22-2014, 03:16 AM   #96
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This is all just so fascinating! I hope you guys don't mind me 'eavesdropping'. I think I'm going to get Overfed Head since it's such a bargain. I would love to give this a good try. Scary...
I finished "Overfed Head" yesterday. But, I don't think it would have helped me as much if I had read it first. The thing I like about "Have Your Cake And Your Skinny Jeans, Too" is that Josie Spinardi addresses the types of non-hunger eating dieters seem to practice. She explains more of the "how-to's." She also describes particular bingeing behaviors. I really saw myself in her writings.
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Old 04-22-2014, 04:18 AM   #97
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More and more, I get that their are two halves to this. One is to eat when hungry, eat exactly what I want, and stop when satisfied. This is huge enough.
The other is to drop decades of diet think. Restriction think.
Thoughts that resist being dropped from my head:
- eating less is better than eating more even when I'm hungry for more.
- hunger means I'm losing weight. Prolong it.
- being satisfied can feel like failure when I'm not centred. Years of eating = caving
- I may be getting this with pasta, but how can it work with pie? Hard to trust the next step.

Love this process. I love honouring my hunger - my body's language - instead of resisting, fighting, managing, dealing, dominating, and then insanely overeating in response to all that resisting.

Last thing. Last night I had a first piece of gorgeous looking blueberry cheesecake on the way to my mouth. I smelled the blueberry and thought, hang on, that is not a ten out of ten, not what I imagined this would be. I can do better than that. I put it down, gave the whole thing to my lovely man, and hadn't thought about it again till just now.
This is total, absolute, freaking shrieking miraculous in my books.
I know that both relaxed, instinctive eating and a lean body are possible together for me now. Please, please let me remember this when the road gets bumpy.
Happy day.
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Old 04-22-2014, 04:25 AM   #98
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I finished "Overfed Head" yesterday. But, I don't think it would have helped me as much if I had read it first. The thing I like about "Have Your Cake And Your Skinny Jeans, Too" is that Josie Spinardi addresses the types of non-hunger eating dieters seem to practice. She explains more of the "how-to's." She also describes particular bingeing behaviors. I really saw myself in her writings.
Although there was a lot of overlap, I really enjoyed Skinny Jeans, Intuitive Eating, and Overfed Head. There were points in each that are excellent every day for me. I appreciate every point I get to counter the 350 diet books I've read over the years.
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Old 04-22-2014, 04:46 AM   #99
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Yesterday I downloaded "Diets Don't Work" by Bob Schwartz. I had to deliberate about it for a long time since the kindle version was about $10. But then something occurred to me.

A few weeks back when I was still in the throes of my winter binge, I read a book that suggested amino acids were the cure. It maintained that a deficiency of the various aminos led to feelings such as anxiety, which I had identified as a precursor to many of my binges. GABA was supposed to alleviate these feelings of anxiety and stop the bingeing in its tracks. Guess what I did? I went straight out to GNC and bought a bottle of GABA, gladly shelling out $20 to stop the binges. Needless to say, it didn't work. This morning I was thinking about how I had been spending about $14 a week for two boxes of Atkins bars, which I considered "legal," to help to control the snacking. I spent $10 for two cartons of plain nonfat Greek yogurt which would make me lose weight. They're still in the frig because I just don't like the taste.

Here I've been spending who knows how much money on various diet foods and weight control methods that just aren't working, so why not go ahead and spend the $10 on something that might. Worst case scenario, I'll be in the same place I've been and not lose any weight. But my calculations tell me I'm actually eating less and spending less money on groceries even considering my trips to the bakery for sweet rolls and carrot cake.
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Old 04-22-2014, 04:56 AM   #100
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CC, yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy! for those thoughts! So true, all of it..
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Old 04-22-2014, 05:43 AM   #101
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I'm off this morning. I want to digest this thread and the last posts better; but as I go, after my fast yesterday, I want to see how I do today with only letting my body dictate what I am going to do food wise.
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Old 04-22-2014, 07:02 AM   #102
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Cake Break

In Josie's book is the scenario of a binge that comes on the heels of turning down the offer to share half of your friend's peanut butter cookie with chocolate chunks because you're being 'good' on your diet. Three hours later you keep thinking about the cookie, try to stave off the craving with some carrot sticks, and end up 3,000 calories later polishing off a king size twix bar in the mini-mart parking lot. All of that could have been avoided if you'd just eaten the 200 calorie cookie back when you really wanted it.

This morning I woke up feeling pretty righteous. I was thinking this will be the day when only healthy (translate that "low calorie") foods will appeal to me. Today is the day that pure hunger directed eating leads me to scrambled eggs and salads instead of carrot cake and cookies. And, sure enough, I wanted scrambled eggs for breakfast.

The plan started to unravel a bit, however, when about two hours later I wanted some of that cake I had picked up from the bakery yesterday. Now, yesterday the sausage biscuit held me six and a half hours, so I'm thinking there's no way I can actually be hungry yet. But the desire persisted. Then the cookie scenario came to mind. So guess what I did? I gave myself full permission to have the cake.

First, I started a pot of coffee. Then I put the gigantic slab of cake (I'm becoming friendly with the girl at the bakery) on my beautiful blue plate. I set the table with my plate, fork, and napkin, poured myself a cup of fresh coffee with cream, said a prayer, and started eating the cake. This time that first bite was a full-blown 15 on a scale of 1 to 10!!! Each bite was a pleasure, and after I'd had a few I was satisfied. So I put the rest of the cake back away in it's little container, put it up on top of the frig in the treat basket, and washed the dishes. Then I took the rest of my delicious coffee into the living room to my favorite chair, sat down, and finished it. It was a delightful experience!
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Old 04-22-2014, 08:19 AM   #103
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Fat Head Torture

There are things we do to ourselves in our pursuit of thinness that we'd never tolerate from a friend. Friends are supposed to treat us well. We don't hang around them hoping they'll make us feel like a fat slob, but we do it to ourselves.

This morning I had this dieter's strategy that I've used before which is supposed to make me naturally desire to eat less. I decided to wear the test jeans. I mentioned that they've improved some since I first started using them as a yardstick, but they're far from presentable. Nevertheless, I decided I should wear them today.

Rob Swartz, in "Diets Don't Work," suggests treating yourself as you would like to be treated by the best friend you could imagine during this journey away from dieting. How would they treat you? Well, it isn't likely I'd appreciate my best friend encouraging me to walk around in jeans that feel uncomfortable and make me look fat. That would just be cruel.

After this sunk in, I took off the jeans and put them away. Instead I put on my favorite bohemian skirt with my fitted Willi Smith t-shirt. Now I feel pretty and thin. And feeling this way, I think it's far more likely I'll avoid abusing myself with food than if had I continued feeling like I did just a few minutes ago.
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Old 04-22-2014, 08:40 AM   #104
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You guys seriously blow me away! All these revelations and really understanding yourselves and your motivations. All wonderful stuff.

Okay, today is my UD, and the last of the Easter leftovers (no candy, just good, homemade food and dessert), and I'm going to attempt to follow my hunger and appetites, and really experience it. I want to feel what you guys are describing. Wish me luck!
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Old 04-22-2014, 08:54 AM   #105
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You guys seriously blow me away! All these revelations and really understanding yourselves and your motivations. All wonderful stuff.

Okay, today is my UD, and the last of the Easter leftovers (no candy, just good, homemade food and dessert), and I'm going to attempt to follow my hunger and appetites, and really experience it. I want to feel what you guys are describing. Wish me luck!
You're going to love it! On another thread Joanna used it along with JUDDD on her UDs and made incredible progress in just a few short months. She's the one that got me interested in the book. Let us know how it goes.
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Old 04-22-2014, 10:52 AM   #106
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CC, I just want to subscribe to this thread so I can come back later to read all of it. I appreciate your insights & book suggestions.
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Old 04-22-2014, 11:05 AM   #107
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CC, I just want to subscribe to this thread so I can come back later to read all of it. I appreciate your insights & book suggestions.
Hi! Glad you're here.
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Old 04-22-2014, 11:22 AM   #108
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Hey CC, does that mean the book was worth it?
Today I worked like a maniac at a soup kitchen in town. I volunteer once a month. I got tremendously hungry during the shift, and all kinds of okay stuff came out on our break: homemade cookies (I can do better, I thought), lemon cranberry muffins (same), and then wonderful looking homemade rolls that I wasn't interested in.
I stopped on the way home to increase my stores of chocolate and chips, and here I am, mid- afternoon, beautifully hungry and ready to choose something perfect.
An idea that sank in yesterday was that I've thought about food more than I've experienced food in my life. And that I haven't enjoyed it enough. I have overindulged and I have restrained, neither of which is enjoyable.
I feel gooooooood.
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Old 04-22-2014, 11:32 AM   #109
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I am intrigued. I am envious! I am scared to death to attempt HDE...
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Old 04-22-2014, 11:35 AM   #110
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I've thought about food more than I've experienced food in my life. And that I haven't enjoyed it enough. I have overindulged and I have restrained, neither of which is enjoyable.
You've hit the nail square on the head and put into words something I could never find the words to describe.
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Old 04-22-2014, 11:42 AM   #111
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Hey CC, does that mean the book was worth it?
Today I worked like a maniac at a soup kitchen in town. I volunteer once a month. I got tremendously hungry during the shift, and all kinds of okay stuff came out on our break: homemade cookies (I can do better, I thought), lemon cranberry muffins (same), and then wonderful looking homemade rolls that I wasn't interested in.
I stopped on the way home to increase my stores of chocolate and chips, and here I am, mid- afternoon, beautifully hungry and ready to choose something perfect.
An idea that sank in yesterday was that I've thought about food more than I've experienced food in my life. And that I haven't enjoyed it enough. I have overindulged and I have restrained, neither of which is enjoyable.
I feel gooooooood.
So far I really like the book. Lots of thought provoking exercises.

I'm jealous you seem to be able to delay hunger, or at least it doesn't seem to strike you as often as it does me. I'm still really hoping my body wants to be 120. So in the back of my mind (honestly, in the front) I'm always considering what all of this will mean for my waistline. The idea of being naturally thin is my dream. But, today I was thinking back on how I looked before I got into the overeating/dieting cycle and back then I really was naturally thin and I never gave it a second thought, so I'm realistically hopeful.
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Old 04-22-2014, 11:56 AM   #112
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So far I really like the book. Lots of thought provoking exercises.

I'm jealous you seem to be able to delay hunger, or at least it doesn't seem to strike you as often as it does me. I'm still really hoping my body wants to be 120. So in the back of my mind (honestly, in the front) I'm always considering what all of this will mean for my waistline. The idea of being naturally thin is my dream. But, today I was thinking back on how I looked before I got into the overeating/dieting cycle and back then I really was naturally thin and I never gave it a second thought, so I'm realistically hopeful.
CC, I'm not sure delaying hunger is a good thing. The thintuition guy said that eating when you're hungry is the way to increase a whacked metabolic rate. I want that. So I'm trying to eat every time I get hungry.
This morning was an exception because there was nothing delicious enough at hand.
I've just had pasta (please god let this phase end soon) and cheesecake, followed by two slices of apple. I feel like the queen.
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Old 04-22-2014, 12:06 PM   #113
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And re: 120, waistlines, etc., I dunno. I want all the slim stuff too, but my pact is to put that second or third or fourth on the list after committing 100% to this process. This is easier to do than I'd imagined because of the pleasure involved.

I feel lucky that my pants are getting looser, because I hope I'd keep at this even if that weren't the case. Who knows whether a body needs to get bigger for a bit before it gets smaller, or whether it needs to pause at a certain weight for a while. I figure that isn't my business, really, and I watch that drive a lot of people crazy. My job is to trust and do the three simple things.
I am so. so. happy that I don't use a scale. I'd be on that thing like an addict on crack.
I feel like we're learning to fly.
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Old 04-22-2014, 12:16 PM   #114
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Hey CC, does that mean the book was worth it?
This book is like the most gut-wrenching therapy you've ever experienced. Talk about getting to the bottom of all this junk! It uncovers it all! And I've barely gotten underway.
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Old 04-22-2014, 12:58 PM   #115
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This book is like the most gut-wrenching therapy you've ever experienced. Talk about getting to the bottom of all this junk! It uncovers it all! And I've barely gotten underway.
Uh oh. I'll get it.
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Old 04-22-2014, 03:00 PM   #116
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If not, I have tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. Anything I want. (I have to keep telling myself this or a scarcity thing rears its head.)
Love this for reminding myself that there will come another day to eat that cookie.
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One, CC, you mentioned that you don't know what you want until you're hungry and then you KNOW. I love this.
I almost never know what I'm hungry for anymore. I just eat what I have when I'm hungry.
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I don't make myself do it, I don't think about it, I don't plan it, I don't agonize about whether I've done enough, what science says about it, why I like snowshoeing more than skiing this year, what worked for me four years ago, whether or not menopause is affecting it, blah, blah, blah
Okay, this is what I aspire to be like.
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In one of the books, it said that needing willpower is just another way of saying you don't trust yourself
Interesting. I have always regarded "willpower" as a four letter word because it's not a very reliable way to go about eating less and the trust thing goes right along with that. I keep denying it but let's face it, as different as I am, as far as I come, I'm still in a diet mind set frequently.



I didn't eat till I got home today so about a 12 hour fast. Was out of milk for coffee and was hungry for cream cheese so got both. I fear that these are inhibiting me right now; but then, if I don't eat or drink what I want, then what am I doing here?
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Last edited by Madmarsha; 04-22-2014 at 03:12 PM..
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Old 04-22-2014, 03:05 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Joyjoy View Post
Would an ideal number on the scale be the most important thing? Or would freedom be first?
Could I be happy restraining for the rest of my life for a number? Could I be happy if I never reached the number?
Well, the number I'm going for is waist size. Since that is a question of health and not vanity, it's not really up for compromise. So it's still an "evil" number thing, BUT it's very important and not really arbitrary as saying, I want to be 125 pounds, or, I want to fit in a size 8.
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My sense is that this won't work for me. In one of the books it mentioned that this won't work as long as we're looking at it as a diet and keeping other diet options on deck in case this doesn't yield the weight loss goals we have in mind. Maybe I shouldn't have read that. And I know that there are a thousand books that say a thousand things. But this concept is ringing so loudly for me that I suspect it's my path. I truly believe that my head needs to leave the diet think behind. I also truly believe that I'll be effortlessly lean in the end
I have a sense as well about these things that that's what's tripping me up. I hate to over think things but under thinking things is how I allow myself to overeat.
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Old 04-22-2014, 03:08 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by CarolinaCoast View Post
Now, the Tahari is the holy grail outfit I wore on December 1st when I crashed headlong into a 4-month binge of self sabotage. It's the one that always tells the gut-wrenching truth. So I decided if I'm going to torment myself, why not go for the jugular. And guess what?

It looks great! As a matter of fact, it fits just like it did on December 1st! How is this possible? This has to be one of the strangest things I've ever seen. It is very unnerving. It just shouldn't be working like this.

I have this fear that somehow the Tahari stretched over the winter and it's really not a reliable gauge. I fear I'll step onto the scales May 1st and be greeted with a 5-pound gain. I'm afraid it's all just another hoax. After all, can it really be possible to have your carrot cake and your Tahari, too?
Um, it's not my experience that clothes stretch while in the closet (unless you've hung it weirdly on the hanger and then it's stretched OUT of shape, not just bigger). This is pretty cool and I've sort of felt like this but not feeling it now AND my scale is not budging. One day I hope to have a Holy Grail outfit.
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Old 04-22-2014, 03:24 PM   #119
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Last thing. Last night I had a first piece of gorgeous looking blueberry cheesecake on the way to my mouth. I smelled the blueberry and thought, hang on, that is not a ten out of ten, not what I imagined this would be. I can do better than that. I put it down, gave the whole thing to my lovely man, and hadn't thought about it again till just now.
This is total, absolute, freaking shrieking miraculous in my books.
Yes! Yes! I am not totally THERE yet with this intuitive thing, but I am totally at this stage. I don't eat bread anymore just cos it's there. I eat it if I've deemed it worthy but only one piece (however, Sunday night I came across some truly wonderful bread and had more than 1. Got to talk myself out of the notion that that was failure and just accept that IT WAS REALLY GOOD BREAD THAT DOESN'T SHOW ITSELF EVERY DAY!).
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:48 AM   #120
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Just wanted to say that I really dig this thread.
I feel like I'm at my wits end sometimes. I read Skinny Jeans, and everything made perfect sense. But then when I tried to go back to my DD on Monday...it didn't work out. I feel like I'm constantly bouncing between LC and JUDDD, only to end up COE and feeling horrid. I'm tired of obsessing about food. I'm tired of the scale running my life. I tried moving it to the guest room with the battery removed, only for me to die knowing the number and reinstating it in the bathroom. Maybe I should move it to the attic?

I've taken a "mental health day" from work...only to be cooking up whatever I have in the house. I *know* I'm not hungry.
I'm just so frustrated that I've gained this weight in 2011, and it isn't going away. No, that's a lie, I have gotten down to 127ish, only to binge and gain it all back. My 5 year anniversary is coming up, and I'm consistently 15lbs heavier now than on our wedding day. I stayed slim for the first 2 years of our marriage, and it's all gone downhill.

I just feel anxious, out of control. Maybe I'll spend the rest of the day sitting down and reading that book again. Or, for $1.99 I'll get the Overfed Head. Maybe if I read them both day and night, it'll sink in and I'll stay on track. I'm just tired of this running my life and feeling out of control with it. Somehow I feel like I should be way heavier than I am, given how much I eat.

Part of me wonders if I can do intuitive eating.
Anyway, sorry for the rant. I like this thread though. It gives hope. I'm off to go read.
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