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Old 08-06-2013, 08:40 AM   #1
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Managing Diabetes with Nutritional Ketosis

Hello, Fellow NKers!

I am not new here, but the last time I posted to an NK thread was back in November 2012. I was doing really well with NK at the time, but then the holidays started, and then vacation started and I left ketosis, gained back some body fat and lost some lean mass. I started NK in July 2012 and carefully tracked everything from July through November. If you would like to see my results from back then, my blog link is in my signature.

After my gain-back, I decided to start again in July 2013.

I am doing things a little differently this time. Last year, I was eating like this:

1555 calories
135g fat (78%)
57g protein (15%)
28g carbs (7%)

I think that the reason I started to slip last November was that I was getting tired of eating such a small amount of protein each day. I really believed that it had to be that low in order to stay in ketosis, which I was tracking with a blood ketone meter.

After finding out that my blood glucose goes up too much even from eating vegetables, and soars when I eat sugar at all, I was diagnosed with Type 2 Diabetes on July 20, 2013. My doctor suggested that I do what he does and just eat meat. So that is what I have been doing. I am eating meat (including beef, beef liver, chicken, pork, fish), eggs, a very small amount of dairy only every four days (due to an intolerance I found out I have) and healthy fats. The only thing I drink is water and very occasional unsweetened, decaf tea.

I have also been influenced by a couple of "gurus" to eat more protein, and so I am trying that. According to my blood glucose and blood ketone readings, this is safe for me to do as long as I am eating no vegetables. I am hoping that eating more protein will help my body figure out that I am not in a famine and that it is okay to let go of some body fat. And, I hope that eating more protein will help with the sustainability of this way of eating, too.

I have cut down fat, but only by 12 grams. I am hoping that my body will burn my own fat instead of that 12 grams that I was eating before.

Here is the way I am eating now:

1440 calories
120g fat (75%)
90g protein (25%)
0g carbs (0%)

Of course, there are a few carbs in some meats, cheese and eggs, so I always end up with a few carbs each day, but that's okay. It is never more than 7g or so.

I'm glad to be back on the forum and hope to find help that I need here and be able to lend encouragement however I can.
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Old 08-06-2013, 10:10 AM   #2
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Good to 'see' you again Rebecca! I will be very interested to see how your experiment goes. Hope you keep us posted.

I have been trying to do one of my own with separating my protein consumption with several hours in order to have it fully digested before adding in more. This is from Dr. Bernsteins' recommendation to spread daily intake over 3 meals.

It is a bit of refining the daily limit idea into a 'digestion limit' - in my case will be 30g per meal. If it takes around 4 hours to fully digest a meal, it should therefore be reasonable to think that the danger of excess protein should be over once that meal has been fully digested. I find it pretty easy to go 6 or 7 hours and only 2 meals.

With life being what it is, I have not gotten a solid week in doing this but just days here and there. This is the week!!!
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Old 08-06-2013, 05:43 PM   #3
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Hi, Cathy!

Thanks for the welcome! I'll be looking forward to seeing how your experiment goes, too!

I am trying to get no LESS than 30 grams per meal, but my limit is 90 per day, and sometimes I have more at breakfast and dinner than at lunch.
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:37 AM   #4
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It is funny how people seem to advocate eating a lot of protein, like it is the "right" thing to do. I recently tried to up my protein while in ketosis and it kicked me out of ketosis. Then it took, almost 2 weeks to get back in. It was frusterating because when I was in ketosis I could tolerate more carbs and protein. I had to eat mostly fat to get back in. I am still very low protein and carbs but hopefully I will get back to the place I used to be where my eating looked a bit more normal. Well good luck with your experiment, hopefully you won't experience what I did.
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Old 08-07-2013, 04:11 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Punkin View Post
It is funny how people seem to advocate eating a lot of protein, like it is the "right" thing to do. I recently tried to up my protein while in ketosis and it kicked me out of ketosis. Then it took, almost 2 weeks to get back in. It was frusterating because when I was in ketosis I could tolerate more carbs and protein. I had to eat mostly fat to get back in. I am still very low protein and carbs but hopefully I will get back to the place I used to be where my eating looked a bit more normal. Well good luck with your experiment, hopefully you won't experience what I did.
Thanks! And just for the record, eating 90g of protein for a woman my size is not "a lot of protein". It is on the low side of what is recommended by Atkins, Protein Power and many other low carb WOES. If it turns out that I need to reduce it to maintain ketosis, I will. I am hoping I will not have to reduce it.

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Old 08-07-2013, 06:02 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham View Post
Thanks! And just for the record, eating 90g of protein for a woman my size is not "a lot of protein". It is on the low side of what is recommended by Atkins, Protein Power and many other low carb WOES. If it turns out that I need to reduce it to maintain ketosis, I will. I am hoping I will not have to reduce it.

I go by Bernstein's (Diabetes Solution) 1-1.5gm per kilo of ideal weight and I consider my ideal weight to be 160 (since I'm carrying around 20 pounds of excess skin) so I eat anywhere from 72-108gm per day. I also eat under 25gm of carbs per day and following this was able to get off all insulins and control my diabetes with diet alone. Since you're a diabetic, I'd suggest picking up Dr. Bernstein's book. Lots of helpful info in there.
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Old 08-08-2013, 06:28 AM   #7
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back!

I just want to thank you for all your input for the NK'ers "back when".


Did you try to increasing protein when testing ketones, or just dropping it? Back then?
Are you blood testing now?
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Old 08-08-2013, 08:46 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Aomiel View Post
I go by Bernstein's (Diabetes Solution) 1-1.5gm per kilo of ideal weight and I consider my ideal weight to be 160 (since I'm carrying around 20 pounds of excess skin) so I eat anywhere from 72-108gm per day. I also eat under 25gm of carbs per day and following this was able to get off all insulins and control my diabetes with diet alone. Since you're a diabetic, I'd suggest picking up Dr. Bernstein's book. Lots of helpful info in there.
It was so nice to see this years old post. I, too, am having to consider excess skin when calculating my protein need. Dr. Bernstein's book is, to me, the single most helpful book for diabetics. Congratulations on all your success.
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Old 08-08-2013, 09:44 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aomiel View Post
I go by Bernstein's (Diabetes Solution) 1-1.5gm per kilo of ideal weight and I consider my ideal weight to be 160 (since I'm carrying around 20 pounds of excess skin) so I eat anywhere from 72-108gm per day. I also eat under 25gm of carbs per day and following this was able to get off all insulins and control my diabetes with diet alone. Since you're a diabetic, I'd suggest picking up Dr. Bernstein's book. Lots of helpful info in there.
Thanks for the suggestion. I have read the book. It's great!
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Old 08-08-2013, 10:23 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drjlocarb View Post
back!

I just want to thank you for all your input for the NK'ers "back when".


Did you try to increasing protein when testing ketones, or just dropping it? Back then?
Are you blood testing now?
I remember you! Thanks for the welcome back!

Last summer, I did not try increasing protein and then testing blood ketones and glucose. This summer, I decreased carbs, and increased protein and my blood ketones and glucose have stayed in the target zone.

Take a look at my blog in my signature to see more details.

Last edited by RebeccaLatham; 08-08-2013 at 10:30 AM..
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Old 08-08-2013, 07:38 PM   #11
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I remember you! Thanks for the welcome back!

Last summer, I did not try increasing protein and then testing blood ketones and glucose. This summer, I decreased carbs, and increased protein and my blood ketones and glucose have stayed in the target zone.

Take a look at my blog in my signature to see more details.
I was just thinking about the protein issue. Our cells cannot exist without protein. It's our nutritional building block. Since I am having so much trouble going into ketosis, I'm going to re-calculate the amount needed for me and target at least the medium range while increasing exercise because my metabolism is all but shot and I think my pancreas is worn down after so many diabetic years with in and out low carbing. Thanks for starting this thread.
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Old 08-08-2013, 07:49 PM   #12
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questions

When you say zero carbs, does that mean that you eat meats and fats only? Do you allow even the slight amount of carbs in an ounce of hard cheese?
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:36 AM   #13
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When you say zero carbs, does that mean that you eat meats and fats only? Do you allow even the slight amount of carbs in an ounce of hard cheese?
The term "zero carb" is a general term that differentiates an all-animal diet with a diet that includes plants. Since there are some carbs even in animal sources, like cheese, organ meats, eggs and shellfish, it is not technically zero carbs. It is extremely low carb, with the only carbs coming from animal sources.
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:55 AM   #14
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The term "zero carb" is a general term that differentiates an all-animal diet with a diet that includes plants. Since there are some carbs even in animal sources, like cheese, organ meats, eggs and shellfish, it is not technically zero carbs. It is extremely low carb, with the only carbs coming from animal sources.
Thank you. Giving up avocados sounds so painful, but I may have to do just that.
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Old 08-09-2013, 08:04 AM   #15
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Thank you. Giving up avocados sounds so painful, but I may have to do just that.
I am hoping that avocados will still be in my future! I miss 'em something terrible!
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Old 08-10-2013, 06:51 AM   #16
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I am hoping that avocados will still be in my future! I miss 'em something terrible!
I was going to start zero carbs today, but still have 3 of those little green wonders in my fridge. In fact, I have lots of great veggies that are going to go to waste. Maybe the neighbors will want them. I hate to waste produce, but I so want to live free of obesity and cancer.
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Old 08-10-2013, 01:26 PM   #17
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I had veggies in the fridge, too, and I'm having my husband eat them.
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Old 08-11-2013, 06:49 AM   #18
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JUST EAT MEAT

That is what I have been doing for three weeks now. Well, mostly meat, anyway. As you can see by my food logs below, I have also been eating Fat Bombs, which contain almond butter, cocoa power and Stevia.

Here are my food logs.



These was my average macronutrient intake during Week 3:



This past week, I lowered the fat grams just a little, in the hope that it would encourage my body to burn some of its own fat instead of the fat I am eating. It seems like that is working, because I lost body fat in this past week.


BLOOD GLUCOSE AND KETONES

Because I am eating the way I am every day, I am not checking blood glucose or ketones on a daily basis. Before breakfast on August 10, I checked them both. My blood glucose was 79 and my blood ketones were 2.6. My average ketone reading is only 1.7, so I am happy about that.

MY EXCESS BODY FAT

My main concern is that I regulate my blood sugar, but I still have too much body fat and I'm hoping this way of eating will help me in that regard.

I held true to my decision not to weigh every day, but I did weigh this morning, and I will continue to weigh just once per week. I also decided to post my average charts, which show what the average of all my numbers are for the past week as one weekly number. Here are my charts:



Since I started ZC three weeks ago, I have:

Lost 1/8" around my neck
Lost 3/4" around my waist
Lost 1/2" around my belly
Lost 1/4" around my hips
Lost 1/8" around my calf
Lost 1.1 percentage points off of my body fat
Gained 1.1 percentage points onto my lean mass
Lost 2.9 pounds of body fat
Lost 0.7 pounds of lean mass


MY GOAL

I have a goal weight and body composition:

11.75" neck
28.5" waist
38.5" hips
136 pounds on the scale
30% body fat
70% lean body mass

To reach that goal, I need to:

Lose 0.125" around my neck
Lose 2.75" around my waist
Lose 1.75" around my hips
Lose 9.4 pounds of body fat
Gain 3.6 pounds of lean body mass


COMING SOON...

I'm going to try some intermittent fasting in this coming week. I'll give you the details later...

Last edited by RebeccaLatham; 08-11-2013 at 06:51 AM..
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Old 08-11-2013, 10:17 AM   #19
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JUST EAT MEAT

That is what I have been doing for three weeks now. Well, mostly meat, anyway. As you can see by my food logs below, I have also been eating Fat Bombs, which contain almond butter, cocoa power and Stevia.

Here are my food logs.



These was my average macronutrient intake during Week 3:



This past week, I lowered the fat grams just a little, in the hope that it would encourage my body to burn some of its own fat instead of the fat I am eating. It seems like that is working, because I lost body fat in this past week.


BLOOD GLUCOSE AND KETONES

Because I am eating the way I am every day, I am not checking blood glucose or ketones on a daily basis. Before breakfast on August 10, I checked them both. My blood glucose was 79 and my blood ketones were 2.6. My average ketone reading is only 1.7, so I am happy about that.

MY EXCESS BODY FAT

My main concern is that I regulate my blood sugar, but I still have too much body fat and I'm hoping this way of eating will help me in that regard.

I held true to my decision not to weigh every day, but I did weigh this morning, and I will continue to weigh just once per week. I also decided to post my average charts, which show what the average of all my numbers are for the past week as one weekly number. Here are my charts:



Since I started ZC three weeks ago, I have:

Lost 1/8" around my neck
Lost 3/4" around my waist
Lost 1/2" around my belly
Lost 1/4" around my hips
Lost 1/8" around my calf
Lost 1.1 percentage points off of my body fat
Gained 1.1 percentage points onto my lean mass
Lost 2.9 pounds of body fat
Lost 0.7 pounds of lean mass


MY GOAL

I have a goal weight and body composition:

11.75" neck
28.5" waist
38.5" hips
136 pounds on the scale
30% body fat
70% lean body mass

To reach that goal, I need to:

Lose 0.125" around my neck
Lose 2.75" around my waist
Lose 1.75" around my hips
Lose 9.4 pounds of body fat
Gain 3.6 pounds of lean body mass


COMING SOON...

I'm going to try some intermittent fasting in this coming week. I'll give you the details later...
Thanks for sharing. I find this very interesting.
Carolyn
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:46 AM   #20
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I did my first down day yesterday, and this is what I ate:

413 calories
37.7g fat (82.2%)
17.6g protein (17%)
0.8g carbs (0.8%)


I was hungry, but I could handle it. It was a little (but only a little) tough at dinner time, because I am at my sister's house, and they were all eating stir fry and I ate nothing.

I was so curious to see what would happen with my body measurements this morning. I am only weighing once a week, and even if I wanted to, I would not weigh here because it is not my scale, and it could be off by pounds. Anyway, this morning I measured, and I:

Lost 1/4" around my waist
Lost 1/2" around my belly
Lost 1/4" around my hips


My body fat went from 35.4% to 34.7%, so that's down 0.7 percentage points.

I woke up not starving, so that was nice.

Not bad for my first day! Today will be an up day, and I already made up my food plan for the day, and it will look something like this:

1585 calories
133.5g fat (75.8%)
91.4g protein (23.1%)
4.4g carbs (1.1%)
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Old 08-13-2013, 01:35 AM   #21
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Rebecca, I like looking at your charts and watching your progress. It sounds like you have a very good Dr. I am close to 0 carb too. I am sort of following the level 5 suggestion of Steve Guyanet of no reward eating. No salt, butter, sauces etc. Just plain meat, eggs, tuna, some lettuce and some raw brocolli. I also have 2 tbl of coconut oil every day just because I think it is good for my brain and digestion.With no seasoning the food is a natural appetite suppression. I have lost 12 pounds in 26 days which makes me happy. The roll around the middle is slowly going away!
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Old 08-13-2013, 05:39 AM   #22
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Good for you, Abigail!
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Old 08-13-2013, 01:42 PM   #23
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I did my first up day yesterday, and this is what I ate:

1765 calories
146.9g fat (74.9%)
104.6g protein (23.7%)
6.1g carbs (1.4%)

I was curious to see what would happen with my body measurements this morning. I am only weighing once a week, and even if I wanted to, I would not weigh here because it is not my scale, and it could be off by pounds. Anyway, this morning I measured, and I:

Lost 1/8" around my neck
Gained 1/8" around my waist
Stayed the same around my belly
Stayed the same around my hips

My body fat went from 34.7% to 35%, so that's up 0.3 percentage points. I thought that I would gain more after my first up day, but I didn't.

Not bad for my first up day! Today will be a down day, and I already made up my food plan for the day, and it will look something like this:

528 calories
44.9g fat (76.5%)
23.8g protein (18%)
7.3g carbs (5.5%)

Last edited by RebeccaLatham; 08-13-2013 at 01:46 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 08-13-2013, 02:48 PM   #24
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The basic amount of food I had been eating before I started intermittent fasting:

1440 calories
119g fat (74.4%)
90g protein (25%)
2g carbs (0.6%)

I decided to eat 25% of this on my down days, and 110% of this on my up days.

So, averaged over up days and down days, it would come out to this:

972 calories
81g fat (75%)
55g protein (22.6%)
5.8g carbs (2.4%)

But here is what I am thinking: There are different opinions on why IF works. Some people say that it is simply a matter of caloric restriction. If I maintain on 1440 calories per day, then I will lose weight on 972 calories per day.

But, according to Dr. Johnson's website, here is the real reason, that goes beyond caloric restriction (quoting from his website):

If you have tried other diets and experienced frustration and disappointment with the results, you may be wondering how the Johnson UpDayDownDay Diet™ is different. Why is the plan so effective in helping people lose weight and, more importantly, keeping that weight off? How does the diet help slow the aging process, reduce the risk of inflammatory disease, and offer other such remarkable benefits? The answers lie in the activation of SIRT1, the "skinny gene" that can be turned on by both an alternate-day calorie restriction diet and resveratrol.

What is SIRT1?

SIRT1 is a gene found in humans and other mammals that helps to promote survival by protecting cells during times when food (and therefore energy) is scarce. Scientists have discovered similar genes in almost all species, including Sir2 in yeast, worms, and fruit flies.

SIRT1 acts as a "rescue gene," repairing the damage done by free radicals and preventing cells from dying prematurely. The gene also causes mitochondria, the power plants of cells, to produce energy at higher levels that are typically associated with younger cells. As a result, SIRT1 is believed to be a principal regulator of lifespan.

The Benefits of SIRT1

The SIRT1 gene, or "skinny gene," assists with weight loss by inhibiting fat storage and increasing fat metabolism. By causing the body to store fewer fat cells, SIRT1 can also slow the aging process by reducing the risk of age-related diseases and health threats, including heart attack and stroke, diabetes, arthritis, and osteoporosis. These conditions have all been linked to an excess amount of fat cells in the body.

In addition, SIRT1 can reduce markers of inflammation and oxidative stress, two other primary causes of aging. Studies show that individuals who live to be 100 years old have lower levels of oxidative stress, meaning fewer free radical cells, than those who live to be 70. Oxidative stress is also thought to be a more reliable indicator of heart disease than cholesterol levels or other factors. In his study on asthma patients, Dr. Johnson showed how restricting calories on alternate days can raise SIRT1 levels and reduce symptoms associated with inflammation.

Dr. Johnson continues to study the effects of SIRT1 and exactly how its benefits are conveyed.

How is the gene activated?

SIRT1 is activated by calorie restriction or by the compound in red wine known as resveratrol. Dr. James Johnson developed the UpDayDownDay Diet™, a method of alternate-day calorie restriction, so that individuals can receive the benefits from "turning on" the SIRT1 gene while losing weight at the same time.

The body's response to calorie restriction is an example of "hormesis," in which a normally dangerous stressor can actually be beneficial in small amounts. Although an animal will die if it starves, moderate calorie restriction can actually increase its chances of survival by raising levels of SIRT1.
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Old 08-13-2013, 02:48 PM   #25
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WOE: Nutritional Ketosis
Start Date: March 2009
I also watched the Vimeo "Eat, Fast and Live Longer", and took away another point or two about IF and why it works. A doctor in that documentary has been doing human tests and found that even though her subjects were eating only a small amount on a fast day, they did not overeat and more that 110% on the non-fast days, and they lost body fat. It was from this documentary that I got the idea of eating 25% on down days and 110% on up days, although I have eaten a little bit more than that each day since I started this three days ago.

My concern is that I am afraid to do what is suggested by Johnson, The Fast Diet book and the vimeo - restrict food on the fast day, and eat however much you want on your non-fast day. I gain weight so easily that I am afraid that eating as much as I want will be too much food to lose weight.

And yet, I'm afraid that an average food intake of only 972 calories per day is not going to "convince" my body that it is okay to let go of the fat.

Yesterday, on my first non-fast day (up day), I ate more than I planned to eat. I "over ate" by 181 calories, eating 1765 instead of 1584. I'm a little bit nervous about this, but, this morning, all I did was gain 1/8" around my waist, and I even lost 1/8" around my neck. I did not weight, so I have no idea if I gained or lost.

And today, on my fast day (down day), I "over ate" by 168 calories, eating 528 instead of 360.

Does anyone have any opinions about this?
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Old 08-13-2013, 03:17 PM   #26
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WOE: Nutritional Ketosis
Start Date: March 2009
The other (more important) reason that I hesitate to eat as much as I want on my up days is that I am afraid that it will raise my blood sugar.

I did a little bit of math and found that in order for me to average 1440 calories over my up and down days, I would be eating 360 calories on down days and a whopping 2520 calories on my up days! If I did that, I'm sure my blood glucose would go through the roof!

The amount I ate on my up day yesterday (1765 calories) was 123% of my normal 1440 calories. If I eat like this on all of my up days, my average will still only be 1063 calories per day, which is pretty low.

Is that enough food?
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:21 AM   #27
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WOE: Nutritional Ketosis
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I have now done two down days and one up day. In the past three days, I have:

Lost 2.8 pounds on the scale (2 pounds of body fat and 0.8 pounds of lean mass)
Lost 1/8" around my neck
Lost 1/8" around my bicep
Lost 1/2" around my bust
Lost 1/2" around my waist
Lost 5/8" around my belly
Lost 1/4" around my hips
Lost 1/8" around my calf
Lost 0.7 percentage points from my body fat (35.4% to 34.7%)


Today is an up day, and I have made up my meal plan for the day, and it looks like this:

1584 calories
134g fat (76.2%)
91.9g protein (23.2%)
2.6g carbs (0.6%)

Last edited by RebeccaLatham; 08-14-2013 at 04:22 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 08-15-2013, 01:54 PM   #28
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Now I had to comment so I could find you again. I was about to complain about someone moving you to the Diabetes board.

Just letting you know I"ve been reading and seeing what you are up to.

Hope all is well.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:00 PM   #29
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WOE: Nutritional Ketosis
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Hi, Annette!

Thanks for stopping by! I see that this thread has been moved to the Weight Loss Journals forum. I was wishing I had started it there, and now I see that my wish is granted! I did not know they could do that, or I would have requested it. Thanks, Moderators!

Today is a down day for JUDDD, and all I had to eat was 4 ounces of canned salmon at 2 pm. Now, the rest of the day is... um... water, I guess!

I'm pretty hungry, but I know that tomorrow I get to eat three meals, so that makes me able to bear it.
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Old 08-15-2013, 10:45 PM   #30
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I've been eyeing JUDD for a while but I just can't bring myself to eat only 500 calories/day. I usually have that much for breakfast! Does the IF make a difference for you, Rebecca? And do you eat low-carb on your up days as well?
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