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Old 02-27-2008, 03:03 PM   #391
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Alex, Thanks so much for sharing about your experience - It is amazing how much we all have in common with the binge eating. It's so great to have folks to talk to about this ... you all have no idea how much help it is.

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Originally Posted by Colo Alex View Post
I know I binged while I gained weight in my 30's but it wasn't identified and it was just me being me?? Does that make any sense?
Yeah, I think that is part of our problem - we think it is "me being me" - but fact is we are not bad weak people, etc. That kind of thinking is part of our problem - we are convinced we are different from other people - somehow we are less. And it is not true.
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Old 02-27-2008, 03:38 PM   #392
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For a long time I have tried to stay away from any black or white, either with respect to my food plan, or analyzing things. I think success, as Tom Venuto would say, lies in studying everything and taking what serves you from it, casting to the side what does not work for you.

... looking to be abstinent where abstinence is the goal ... just the words make me want to binge, so it makes utter utter sense to me that this is just plain wrong way to heal. I need kindness -

I totally agree with your thoughts, Pauline.
I believe that everything written above is so important.
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Old 02-27-2008, 05:06 PM   #393
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As for binge eating, I do not enjoy the binge the way an alcoholic enjoys his drink. It is the opposite - I punish myself and it causes the binge.
Hmm, I find it hard to agree with this. The alcoholics that I know (some who have even died), did not enjoy their drink. They were self medicating. Trying to alleviate the pain...much as I do with a binge. When I am truly bingeing, I am trying to medicate myself, trying to stop the pain, trying to turn off the voices....making myself physically hurt so that the emotional hurt feels less.....much like a cutter. Also, I am waiting for the chemical response in my brain to kick in for a short time before the self recrimination happens. Again, I see this as part of the addiction cycle. Or how about the alcoholic that just drinks continually, not ever getting drunk, just so that they can make it through the day. I used to do that....morning until night.....continual eating of high sugar foods so that I could keep the "buzz" going.

I am not trying to be argumentative at all. I will have to read the book so that I can see it in context and then maybe I will "get it." I guess it doesn't really matter whether it is an addiction or not. I wonder why it seems so important to me? I'm not looking at it as addiction=excuse.

I am very sensitive to the whole addiction thing because I grew up in an alcoholic home. I am still dealing with alcoholism with close family members.

I purposely don't drink because I am scared....I have consumed some alcohol in my life. It literally takes 1/2 a drink to get me drunk. How many 1/2 drinks would it take for me to be consumed by the monster that is alcoholism?

I see so much of my relationship with food as identical to some of my family members relationship with alcohol.

Substance consumed in order to not deal with pain. Substance creates chemical reaction in brain. Need to consume vast amounts of substance to get the next chemical reaction in brain. Self recrimination.

You know, maybe this is a problem for me because I have binged my whole entire life. I can remember hoarding cheese to eat later when I was about three. Telling someone at a church pot luck that I loved these meals because I could gorge until my stomach hurt. I was about five. And I'm sure gorging is different than bingeing, but what compels a child to consume so much food? And on and on. I don't know any other way to be.
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Old 02-27-2008, 05:17 PM   #394
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Argumentative is good Elizabeth Actually, I am sorry I could only summarize the ideas he has on addiction and binge eating. He does say a lot more and I obviously cannot possibly understand addiction in the way you do, to properly summarize that portion of the book!!!!

He actually lists the similiarities - which do take into account your observations. He goes on to say that just because the disorders have similiarites, does not make them equivalent. He then explains why he believes the similiarities are superficial - whether you'll be able to buy into it or not, I don't know ... it's definitely worth a read.

I do agree with him that rather than requiring us to "buckle down" and be abstinent like the 12-step programs, healing lies in a loosening of the reins, of the unattainable standards we hold ourselves to ...

I guess what I am saying is that, whatever we call it, my binge eating will not be cured by additional tough standards being imposed on me -- no words of wisdom here, I just instinctively feel it would be a disaster for me.

p.s. My mother tells a horrible story about when I was 3 years old and took my piggy bank over to the neighbor's house, knocked on the door and said "oink oink - the piggy's hungry" hoping to get some food from them. She thinks it's so funny. She thinks it's because they kept junk food in the house. If she only knew: it's because they would actually give me food when I played at their house and was hungry

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Old 02-27-2008, 05:36 PM   #395
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I totally agree with your thoughts, Pauline.
I believe that everything written above is so important.
Thanks Rebecca ... It is so hard to muddle through all this!! But I have to say I have learned valuable things from so many - and I usually do not agree with at least some of what they have to say ... Heck, if I had listened to Dr. Atkins, I would never ever have tried to adapt his plan for a vegetarian and I really believe I would not be where I am today!! lol!!!

I still have other stuff to share about the current book by Fairburn, but have also put on a reserve at the library a book called: Binge No More: Your Guide To Overcoming Disordered Eating by Joyce Nash c1999. It'll be interesting to see other points of view!

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Old 02-27-2008, 05:41 PM   #396
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February 27, 2008

I feel a cold coming on - sore throat and ears feel funny. I am also soooooooooo tired - between Monday night choral practice (yes, we liked sheep on Monday, Elizabeth! I thought of you guys!! lol!!!) and forcing myself to stay awake to see Biggest Loser so I could chat with my friends, I am wrecked .... time to crawl into bed with a book!!!
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Old 02-27-2008, 06:04 PM   #397
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Argumentative is good Elizabeth Actually, I am sorry I could only summarize the ideas he has on addiction and binge eating. He does say a lot more and I obviously cannot possibly understand addiction in the way you do, to properly summarize that portion of the book!!!!

He actually lists the similiarities - which do take into account your observations. He goes on to say that just because the disorders have similiarites, does not make them equivalent. He then explains why he believes the similiarities are superficial - whether you'll be able to buy into it or not, I don't know ... it's definitely worth a read.

Okay, now this makes more sense. I see.

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I do agree with him that rather than requiring us to "buckle down" and be abstinent like the 12-step programs, healing lies in a loosening of the reins, of the unattainable standards we hold ourselves to ...

I guess what I am saying is that, whatever we call it, my binge eating will not be cured by additional tough standards being imposed on me -- no words of wisdom here, I just instinctively feel it would be a disaster for me.
I can see that this would be very helpful. I think it is a balance. Yes, this food is permissable, but seeing how this food makes me react, I choose to not partake. If it is my choice, I am in control. And I agree, abstinence with food is near impossible. I think that Atkins works for me on many different levels. Physically, it controls my blood sugar and hunger. Mentally, it lets me have lots of satisfying food. Can anyone really ever be satisfied with copious amounts of rice cakes? LOL

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p.s. My mother tells a horrible story about when I was 3 years old and took my piggy bank over to the neighbor's house, knocked on the door and said "oink oink - the piggy's hungry" hoping to get some food from them. She thinks it's so funny. She thinks it's because they kept junk food in the house. If she only knew: it's because they would actually give me food when I played at their house and was hungry
How sad for you. for 3 year old Pauline.
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Old 02-27-2008, 06:05 PM   #398
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February 27, 2008

I feel a cold coming on - sore throat and ears feel funny. I am also soooooooooo tired - between Monday night choral practice (yes, we liked sheep on Monday, Elizabeth! I thought of you guys!! lol!!!) and forcing myself to stay awake to see Biggest Loser so I could chat with my friends, I am wrecked .... time to crawl into bed with a book!!!

I hope you feel better soon. Take a nice hot cup of herb tea to bed with your book.

Sleep well, my friend.
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Old 02-27-2008, 06:41 PM   #399
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I do agree with him that rather than requiring us to "buckle down" and be abstinent like the 12-step programs, healing lies in a loosening of the reins, of the unattainable standards we hold ourselves to ...
This is SO key !!!

Sleep well and feel better, Pauline.
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:35 PM   #400
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I hope you are feeling better, Pauline.
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:44 AM   #401
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Hope you are feeling better!!!
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Old 02-29-2008, 05:01 AM   #402
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February 28, 2008

Darn Internet was down! Looks like my call to the Cable company spurred them on to change ALL the cables on my street!!!! Boy are the squirrels going to be p'ed off!!! I'm still sick .. but much better than yesterday! Off to the gym shortly for god-awful killer strength class
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:11 PM   #403
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February 29, 2008

Wow! Yesterday and today I had some moments where I wanted to eat but knew it was binge triggers talking to me. This is so good, but at the same time, I feel concerned that any little thing immediately directs me to put something in my mouth. The minute I tell myself, "No, you are upset due to x, you are not hungry and do not need to eat," the hunger dissipates. This really is an illness. I guess I just need to remember everything I know about myself and these urges at times like that ... but it is not easy!! I wonder how much of me being good has to do with the fact that I am reading books about binge eating?! (halfway through the second book, lol!)

Instances when I wanted to "eat" the past two days were triggered by:

* I am sick. My throat hurts and my head is congested yet I have carried out all regular activities.

* I am very tired.

* I was upset that the darn internet was down after everything I went through with getting the cable guys out here last week and I had 2 very important things to check in my email before I left the house this morning -- 2 times for activities around which I needed to plan the rest of life ... ugh! Can we say "no control over situation" freaks Pauline out ... or makes her throw a temper tantrum!!!?

* I saw a batch of 16 flax muffins on the counter cooling while feeling a and c.

* I saw a container of brazil nuts - which I have since put in a cupboard. while feeling a and b

* I don't know if this had any effect or not ... I hope not! I have lost 1 pound in the last three weeks. I have absolutely come to terms with it, considering my trip to Boston and the fact that I lost more weight than I should have before that, etc ... but you have to wonder what my sneaky little mind might be up to .. best to note it down here!!

Anyhow, going strong! Feeling good and happy despite all of that above.
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Old 03-01-2008, 04:59 AM   #404
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From a book about Mom done in Kindergarten:

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Old 03-01-2008, 05:06 AM   #405
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wow Pauline that is really a dear picture by your daughter. that is a keeper!
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Old 03-01-2008, 10:58 AM   #406
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This really is an illness. I wonder how much of me being good has to do with the fact that I am reading books about binge eating?! (halfway through the second book, lol!)
Yes, it really is, isn't it? Does Fairburn think that it is an illness?

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Instances when I wanted to "eat" the past two days were triggered by:

* I am sick. My throat hurts and my head is congested yet I have carried out all regular activities.

* I am very tired.

* I was upset that the darn internet was down after everything I went through with getting the cable guys out here last week and I had 2 very important things to check in my email before I left the house this morning -- 2 times for activities around which I needed to plan the rest of life ... ugh! Can we say "no control over situation" freaks Pauline out ... or makes her throw a temper tantrum!!!
Wow! I can't believe how similar we are! I could have written this part of your post. I need to be out of the kitchen and away from food if I'm tired or sick.

******

That picture done by your daughter is too precious!
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Old 03-01-2008, 11:56 AM   #407
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Wow Pauline,

You wear a dress to the gym? No onder you get hit on all the time!!!
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Old 03-01-2008, 12:34 PM   #408
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Wow Pauline, You wear a dress to the gym? No onder you get hit on all the time!!!
Apparently I am very lady-like ...
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Old 03-01-2008, 12:44 PM   #409
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Elizabeth, Fairburn doesn't characterize it as an illness but as an ED ... I guess I think of it as an illness - as opposed to being any weakness in character, ya know what I mean??!!!

I am halfway through the second book, Binge No More: Your Guide To Overcoming Disordered Eating by Joyce Nash c1999. I think it will be more helpful than Fairburn's book Elizabeth with some of the same recommendations. It covers a wider spectrum and has some cognitive behavioral suggestions which would help a broader audience of people ... I'd suggest getting it instead of Fairburn.

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Old 03-01-2008, 03:20 PM   #410
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Can you tell that I am still a bit irritated?

Ahhhh, I am understanding why I got so upset about the "addiction" thing.....In my mind, eating disorder=disease=addiction. All those words are interchangeable. Because this is the way I think/thought, I misunderstood. I thought Fairburn was saying that it was a character flaw. I thought he was using behavior modification, i.e. no food is off limits, to "cure" the character issues. No restrictions~no reason to rebel (rebellion being a character flaw)~no reason to binge. This is why I responded so strongly. I don't think that my binge eating is a character flaw at all. (I think not choosing to take responsibility might be able to be characterized as a flaw. Now, struggling to find the answer, bingeing, gaining weight while trying to figure it out...these I also don't see as character flaws.)

I react sooooooo strongly to the character flaw idea. I have struggled for years and years and years. I was always a "solid" kid, but most of my weight really came on when I started puberty. PCOS reared its ugly head immediately and so my body puts on weight just by looking at food. You know how people always say, "You didn't put that weight on overnight, you shouldn't expect it to come off overnight." Well, actually, that's not true of my body. I can gain 5-7 lbs. a day! And you know what, I'm losing about 1 lb. a month now, all while being incredibly diligent. I know for a fact that much of my husband's family think that I am weak. One big character flaw. Some of my other times doing Atkins and reading these boards, I have felt that I was weak also (especially when Kimmer was around) I want to thank you for everything you've posted. I think you are a reasonable voice in this place saying "Hey, it's not about being weak." And you've got the incredible track record to back it up!


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Old 03-01-2008, 03:39 PM   #411
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I think Society sees it as a character flaw and it is one you cannot hide ... you walk down the street and everyone assumes you are a lazy slob who refuses to get a grip .... our fatness reflects poorly on them if they do not immediately denounce it ...

We grow up with that and then, perfectionists that we are, we take up the cry and direct it at ourselves perpetuating the wrong and the unfairness.

Fact is, we have to change how we see ourselves almost more than any other thing about us ... it is the only way to seriously be able to change our coping mechanism from one that involves food to one that involves using the powers of our mind to make us stronger. We can't depend on our minds to help us with this if our minds are back there telling us: You are weak, You'll never do this, You're lazy, Get with the program, etc.

My newfound understanding of the subject.
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Old 03-01-2008, 05:48 PM   #412
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March 1, 2008

OK I am really effing sick and to compound matters I gave into temptation and took an antihistamine ... thought I'd try Claritin since it isn't as strong as benadryl and went and gave myself this mouth condition like dry mouth. Typically when I get it I cannot sleep all night without a cloth stuffed into my mouth ... nasty. Anyhow, just went to Walgreens and bought some products for the condition - we'll see. I've been absolutely miserable all day and very very binge-y. Happily I took into account the why and wherefore and have been 100% on plan.

I did notice, in my new tool, the calendar I keep at my desk, that it has been about 28 days since I had the last spate of binge hunger feelings, so I am thinking it is coincidentally TOM hunger (have had a partial hysterectomy, so I do not have a foolproof way of knowing when, lol! ). Anyhow, if you add that and this newest stupid antihistamine inceident to the whole list of "binge urge" issues the other day, I have been a real superstar this week ... go me!!

In the Nash book, she also recommends the whole food journaling thing in a very similiar way to Fairburn, but the next topic was new to me and really great. It saw a binge as a series of events that begins long long before the actual entry into binge ... as a chain of events that you can study and actually see at which points you did have the opportunity to stop it in its tracks. She then goes on to list methods ... the book is upstairs so I'll leave that to another post. I'm liking this book!

Well I am off to bed, and if all goes well, I shall not return until tomorrow morning, if not I may be yapping to myself here all night.

G'night!

Pauline
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Old 03-01-2008, 07:02 PM   #413
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I'm sorry you're still not feeling well! I hope you are able to sleep all night and even sleep in tomorrow.

Interesting idea from Nash. I know that last month when I had that crazy-want-to-binge day, which was a Tuesday, I had had an EXTREMELY stressful Monday and then Tuesday just continued it. I didn't take any time to decompress. I'm going to go reserve that book at the library right now because that sounds really, really interesting to me.

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Fact is, we have to change how we see ourselves almost more than any other thing about us ... it is the only way to seriously be able to change our coping mechanism from one that involves food to one that involves using the powers of our mind to make us stronger. We can't depend on our minds to help us with this if our minds are back there telling us: You are weak, You'll never do this, You're lazy, Get with the program, etc
This is very profound!
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Old 03-02-2008, 06:54 PM   #414
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Elizabeth, I think you will like the book ... or at least come away with some good tools, just reading about the binge chain "intervention" opportunities has made me act on my own today. It felt like a spontaneous idea, but I am sure it is due to the reading I have been doing, lol!!!

March 2, 2008

Very Binge-y Today. Why?

1. Sick,
2. Tired,
3. TOM time and symptoms
4. dd was sick and had to take her to dr's
5. I was whoozy myself and scratched the car on a post while parking in the tight lot
6. Anticipating a full day tomorrow that I know I won't be up to

However, I have just declared victory over a container of Brazil nuts (and they were not cheap). After obsessing over them all day, I finally just put them down the garbage disposal. I realized that nothing else in the house was speaking to me like that, and that all I really had to do was to put 'em down the disposal, and I'd stop all the stupid annoying thoughts.

The only other thing talking to me lately is a bag of tortilla chips in the cupboard and I have decided to make the family chili and chips tomorrow night - my night out at chorus -and whatever they do not finish, I will ask dh to send down the disposal too - he'll understand and probably finish 'em off, lol!

I am a little fed up with myself today - it being Sunday just makes it that much harder. I have been very binge-y today and, not surpisingly, very very much wanting to weight myself ... which is totally bizarre considering I am sick, congested, have not drank my normal amount of water, am starting to retain TOM water which I can feel in the chest. Everywhere I go, a scale seems to pop up - the doctor's office, 2 of them at my gym, etc. I think I want to weigh myself so I'll get upset and binge.

Not going to do it, So There!
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Old 03-02-2008, 07:15 PM   #415
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I reserved the book from the library and hope it will be in by the end of the week. Thanks for the recommendation.

Good job putting those Brazil nuts down the disposal! I understand how hard it is to get rid of something that you "spent good money on." What a hugely successful thing you did tonight!!!

I am sorry that the scales are taunting you like that! Give 'em a good kick! That'll teach them!!

Hope dd feels better.
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Old 03-03-2008, 08:07 AM   #416
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Pauline,

I am sorry you are sick and I'm sorry that the beast is acting so unkind to you right now. I am very impressed by your will power and ability to stay calm and keep in control.

Hope things improve soon.
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Old 03-03-2008, 03:02 PM   #417
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WOE: Atkins Maintenance (Vegetarian + Fish)
Start Date: 6/03 & Goal! 5/06
March 3, 2008

Thanks Guys! I don't know if it was will power ... more a "reasoning it out" power. You have no idea the sense of relief I felt when I realized I could just dump those nuts down the disposal .. it was like discovering the earth was round or something ... why it was so difficult to come up with that as one of the many options I had while in the throes of the mental wrangling, I do not know!!!!

I just hope I recall that desperate action the next time it is needed!!! lol!!!!

I am feeling far better today, although still sick. My workout and the strength class had me a bit dizzy this morning, but I was glad I did complete them. I had two days total of the hungry/bingies as compared with one day a month ago as today the hunger has dissipated yet again. So, I have proven that if I can just get myself through the binge urge days, away from the food extras and illogical scale weighings, the tomorrow will usually be better ... that is a really good lesson to have learned. Kinda along the lines of my "dentist theory." For those who have not heard it: You are in the chair for a finite amount of time, so just grin and bear it because no matter how bad it might be, it will soon be over ... My poor kids get subjected to this theory a lot
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Old 03-04-2008, 05:41 PM   #418
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WOE: Atkins Maintenance (Vegetarian + Fish)
Start Date: 6/03 & Goal! 5/06
March 4, 2008

Another good day under my belt - I had a different lunch for a change, some vegetable soup (and waaaaaay too much sodium, lol!) replacing my side of veggies. And it was good.

I have been doing some research and thinking on a solution for breakfast for maintenance and may have found one that will suit me - higher calorie and carbier than what I currently have which is perfect for the morning before my workout. I will likely add it in before I get to 128 lbs. To maintain I'll need another 300-400 calories a day somewhere, but I can think about that after I get breakfast set .. I have been feeling hungry in the morning and know I need a boost in food there, so it is the obvious place to start (maybe in April or May)

This is one of the recipes I am thinking of doing - I will double it to about 400 calories:

No Bake Protein Bar

5 tbsp natural peanut butter (chunky or smooth)
1/2 cup dry oat meal or whole grain hot cereal (uncooked)
1/2 cup oat flour (double the dry oats if you do not have oat flour)
6 scoops chocolate whey protein (approximately 132 grams worth of low-carb protein powder)
1 teaspoon vanilla
2 tablespoons flax seeds (optional)
1 cup non-fat dry milk
1/2 cup water (depending on what type of protein you use, you may need to add more)

Modifications: Use vanilla protein and replace ~1/4 cup of the oatflour with a variety of nuts, seeds, or dried berries.

PREPARATION:
Spray an 8x8 baking dish with non-stick cooking spray. Combine dry ingredients in a medium size bowl and mix well. Add peanut butter and mix - the mixture will be crumbly and dry. Add water & vanilla.

Using a wooden spoon or rubber spatula, everything until a dough forms. The dough will be sticky. Spread dough into pan using a clean wooden spoon or spatula that has been sprayed with non-stick cooking spray. Refrigerate a few hours (or freeze for an hour) and cut into 9 squares. Wrap bars individually (use sandwich bags or plastic wrap) or store in covered container between sheets of wax paper. Keep refrigerated.

Nutritional Information Per Serving:
197 calories, 21 g protein, 7.2 g fat (8% saturated), 13.7 g carbohydrate, 1.6 g fiber
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Old 03-05-2008, 09:51 AM   #419
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So glad you've been able to "reason" yourself through all this stuff. I love how successful I feel when I actually think through a problem and come up with a workable solution instead of just reacting.

I don't know if it's the same for you, but I find breakfast my most difficult meal of the day AND the meal that determines how I will do for the day. It could be because I am not a morning person. The other day, my 7 yo dd asked, "Mommy, have you had your coffee yet because you are really crabby!?!" I'll have to work on that. Anyways, I like things that are quick and easy to grab.
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Old 03-05-2008, 04:42 PM   #420
Way too much time on my hands!
 
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Start Date: 6/03 & Goal! 5/06
I'm too busy to be crabby in the a.m. The first kids bus comes at 6:45 - yech! I do fine with breakfast because it is something I can grab quick ... I'm the same as you in that and I have had to streamline my "menu" because if food takes too much preparation during the day, I will end up eating something off plan. I absolutely need to plan ahead and have everything "grabbable." I translated the one minute flax muffin into a baked version and now make 16 at a time and freeze most of them - that lasts me a little over a week!

I currently eat a processed bar at breakfast, but am hoping to sub in that recipe above for a no cook bar in a month or two when I want to stop losing weight. My whole key to success is grabbability and ease!

Which brings me to my journal entry for the evening:

March 5, 2008

I have spent time today figuring out a maintenance menu - for the days when I am at home. The numbers should all work out for me at 128 pounds if I continue my current 5-day exercise schedule. I have left an extra 775 calories a week for restaurant or other indulgences!

The only [color=green]changes [/color]from my current day is my breakfast has changed to a bar recipe that is 400 calories instead of the 210 I was eating (great to fuel my workout that way!!!!), adding a whey protein shake with my regular afternoon snack of pita with veg sausage and cheese, and adding an extra slice of cheese to my dinner. I also take into account our usual Friday night couple glasses of wine. My total carb count will come to 80 - 89 net carbs which is only a little above what I usually do!!!

I am very excited about this! All I have to do is to 1) keep to that plan, 2) work out my extra 775 every week, and 3) Work out my approach to the occasional high-carb restaurant meal ... a topic for another day

Maintenance Menu

Total: 2224 calories, 80-89 carbs
.........+ extra 304calories, 10 carbs on Friday nights

Breakfast:
[color=green]double pb bar[/color] (was ˝ c cheerios, 1 mstart bar)
2 cups coffee, 4 T 1% milk

Lunch:
8 oz brussel sprouts
˝ pita, veggie burger, onion slice, 1 cheese slice, 2T lc catsup
2.5 cups coffee, 5 T 1% milk
Flax muffin

Snack:
˝ pita, 2 slices veggie sausage, 1 slice cheese
[color=green]8 oz milk, 1 scoop whey powder, 1 T peanut butter
........ OR 1 scoop whey powder, 2 T peanut butter in water
[/color]

Dinner:
˝ pita, 2 large eggs fried with [color=green]2 slices cheese[/color]
10 oz pkge spinach and 2 T soy sauce
Flax muffin
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