Thyroid tests are normal?? Are you sure?

[nonstickpam107]

Tamara, just make sure he's doing both FT4, and FT3...TSH will be VERY LOW with Armour, and FT3 quite high, and FT4 kind of just sits there in most (below midway of range). Many of us have TSH at .003!! So, if he's a TSH worshipper...beware! (Most of we adult women are on 3 grains or MORE as we titrate to where we feel like we do NOT have thyroid disease at all). Just in case you want to know the 'usual dosage'...I know a person on 8 grains, as well as a person on 16 (ACK) grains.

Pam

[Lowcarbing]

Hello Pam,

My two sisters went to my doctor 1 1/2 months ago. One sister had all the classic symptoms, doctor put her on 3 gr of Armour. I almost had a COW .

My other sister had some symptoms, doctor put her on 2 gr.

Both had all the classic over dose symptoms. It scard them both so bad, they both stop taking their Amour and said they did'nt need it. They are convinced Armour is BAD

I'm stomped as to how I can help them get through thier fears.

What is a good beginning dose to start with.

Terry

[nonstickpam107]

A doctor gives 1/2 grain to start, in am, (if the patient has been on NO other hormone), then tests (tests FT4, FT3, TSH) in six to eight weeks, then adds another 1/2 grain, with another 1/2 grain to follow in three weeks, testing AGAIN in six weeks (by now you are on 1.5 grains). If the FT4/FT3 (especially FT3) isn't up to midway of it's lab range, that's when another 1/2 grain is given, then you go up by 1/4's to 1/2's until you are 'well done'.

Pam

[Lowcarbing]

Thank you Pam , I'll share this information with them. I sent this thread (link) to one of my sisters, hopefully she'll log in and learn more about this illness.

Thanks,
Terry

[willsmom1us]

I have had my TSH checked several times over the years (was dx'd as hypo after my last child -11 yrs ago, but then resolved itself after being on synthyroid for a while?). It seems that everytime I get it checked it is lower. A couple of years ago it was 1.5, then last Aug it was 1.07 and now is .96. I feel like I have the symptoms of hypo, but not sure what to make of the numbers. I know after reading the many messages on this thread I should be asking for different tests, but was wondering what anyone thought of the dropping TSH.
I am definately not Hyperthyroid!

Thanks in advance.

Susan

[Jewels]

I'm having many tests for various symptoms. They did a ton of blood work and saw where my TSH was only at .57. This seems low to me. My TT3 was 106 and FT4 was 1.2. These seem to be in the norm. I have no clue about thyroid disease but wonder if the low TSH was something I should make the Dr. stand up to?

I tried reading this whole thread but I only have until Thursday when I see the Dr. So I hope it's ok to just ask.

[nonstickpam107]

Jewels, that doesn't tell me anything, every lab range is different, so if you could give the exact lab ranges used for those tests, it would help.

Susan, Hashimoto's hypothyroidism is called the 'rollercoaster' disease. Why? Cuz your TSH takes wild swings EVERYWHERE while the antibodies are destroying the thyroid. That's WHY just doing TSH isn't the right way to dx this. Your TSH can go up and down three whole points in any given day! You need a Free T4 and Free T3, and also an anti TPO antibody test for Hashimoto's. I went hyPER (way....hyPER...) first with Hashi's...and my generic doctor (ex doc) only did a TSH, so when it was low, he said "that's great" doh!!! He didn't check for any antibodies, OR any Free's.

Totals only tell what's IN your body Jewels, not what's usable/being used. If you women are on any type of HRT (birth control) than Free T's are what you need (cuz the hormones bind the thyroid hormones and Totals (TT4, TT3) just tell what's in your body....it may look fine, and not even be enough. My totals look GREAT...but we know it's wrong because of the HRT I take. My Free's vs. my Totals are like night and day.

EDITED: Jewels, that's not a TT3...that looks like a T3 Uptake result...and that doesn't show your T3 hormone...lots of docs THINK it does, but it's actually just another expensive, unnecessary test for binding T4 (usually done for hyPER people).

Pam

[Jewels]

Pam, he is checking symptoms of the upper digestive system. I think he was ruling out thyroid disease. These were the tests among others but seemed to me the TSH was in the low range.
Here are the #s.


Value Low High Unit
FREE THYROXINE (F4) 1.2 0.9 1.8 NG/DL
T3 Uptake 106 70 170 NG/DL
TSH 0.57 0.5 5.5 MU/L

Tried to line these up. Can you read these and understand them?

[willsmom1us]

Thank you Pam-I will ask for those tests next time I go in.

Susan

[nonstickpam107]

T3 Uptake means nothing Jewels...you need a Free T3 test to determine if you are converting all that T4 into any part of T3 (you see, in order to function normally, lose weight, have energy, part of the T4 MUST be converted into T3...T3 Uptake is NOT a measure of T3 hormone AT ALL, rather it's a test for binding T4). So, no T3 done isn't a good thing...BUT, your levels are good. Most 'normal' people have a TSH of 1 or under, and a FT4 of at least midway of it's lab range or higher.

It's getting to be scary...the number of doc's who don't know what a T3 Uptake test is for.

Pam

[Jewels]

Thanks Pam for all your help in understanding these tests.

[beachguy]

I have been a low energy person for years (over 30) and doctors have not been able to find the cause. I just received my thyroid test results and need some help interpreting them. They seem OK to me but I wanted to get Pam's and others feedback.

FT4 ..... 1.4 ...... 0.8 - 1.8 ... OK
FT3 ..... 2.9 ...... 2.3 - 4.2 ... OK
TSH...... 1.349 .. 0.35 - 5.50 ... OK

Thanks

[nonstickpam107]

The FT3 is much too low though..shows a lack of conversion. This can be caused by a number of things. I'm wondering if your 'new strategy' was to lower your carbs below 55 net grams. That can really drop T4 to T3 conversion (so can low iron/ferritin AND low testosterone). OH..and eating SOY will really drop the conversion, otherwise, for a male, the panel doesn't look all that bad...you might want to raise your carbs by eating more veggies, and get rid of any soy and then retest on the FT4, FT3.

My husbands panel was very low in FT3 and pretty well ok with FT4, but a little Armour Thyroid was just the thing for him, he's doing really well now. You're in VA and it's really a difficult state to find a good thyroid doc in. If you are interested in pursuing the matter (and maybe find a doc who would let you have a 'trial' of Armour) you might want to go to www.armourthyroid.com and use their 'docfinder' there. OR call your pharmacies and ask if any doc Rx's Armour OR Cytomel (synthetic T3)...they may be able to help you find a doctor. Also, ask for Free testosterone panel with test. itself, it's helpful to see the difference in the two.

Pam

[beachguy]

Thanks Pam,

My new plan is basically to not cheat on plan and exercise more. I have recently added in brown rice and rolled oats so my carbs are over 50 per day. I did this because of the exercise - about 2 hours a day. If I eat any soy, it is not on purpose. My Iron was 88 (target 35-185). I also had testosterone tested and it is also in range 541 (target 241-827). This was total testosterone. I thought free testosterone was included in lab but I didn't get results for that.

So with this info, do you still think FT3 is low?

Thanks

[nonstickpam107]

I KNOW the FT3 is low (most are at midway of lab range) but I also know it's caused by a low free testosterone (you know that the Total is what's running through your body, while the FREE is actually what is available....my DH was treated with bio identical testosterone when his Free was lower than midway of range, and his total was about where yours is.

Then again, it can shift from working out, eating, etc....but I'd suspect (men's FT3 is usually lower than women's and T4 seems to be what men want more of) that you want to look into getting an opinion from a doc who supplements with bio identical testosterone FIRST. It's usually the culprit. Especially if you've felt lack of energy for that long! We spent almost 20 years trying to figure out my DH's problem, and it was a combination of clinical subclinical hypothyroidism CAUSED by low, untreated, unreplaced testosterone. Of course my doc's a thyroidologist and he was a pioneer in bio identical hormone replacement for MEN before he started really doing it for women too.

Pam

[beachguy]

Thanks Pam. I usually have a few days a year that my energy seems good but never have been able to figure out how to keep it at that level. Low carbing gets rid of most of the really bad days but doesn't give me many high energy days. And for as much as I exercise, I haven't built up as much muscle mass as I would expect to, so maybe the testosterone is the problem. Several years ago, my previous doctor said my testosterone level was a little low, but the urologist recommended against testosterone supplement because my father had prostate cancer, which gives me a higher possibility of getting it, and it was thought that testosterone supplements might cause an increase in the likelyhood of prostate cancer.

I think I will follow up with a good doctor. Thanks again for your help.

[nonstickpam107]

You're very welcome. My DH's Father also had prostate problems but they can be brought on by low testosterone too (much as not all ovarian cancers are hereditary and estrogenic).

Most urologists aren't very savvy about bio identical testosterone and they prefer to give injection equipment for it (ACKKK!!) still. So do research on transdermal bio identical testosterone before you go to a doc. (Although I get a mite frustrated when I get to what 'should be' a really good doc who doesn't have a CLUE about the newest bio identical forms of replacement HRT). Good luck to you.

Pam

[inatic]

ding, ding, ding ! The bells just went off! VIc has had prostate problems for over 20ys! DAM! I wonder if it was all caused by low Testosterone all this time! sheesh.

He is currently on The cream and it seems to be working well. We're noticing that his bp pressure also seems to be coming down. Might have to adjust his Bp meds down too.

Interesting.

[nonstickpam107]

Ileen, Rick just got to ditch the Atenelol (beta blocker/BP med)...his Free Testosterone is in the 3/4 of lab range now (finally, lol). Yeah, only the urologists we saw kept saying genetic cancers, etc....and not a ONE of them knew bio identical....I was lucky to be seeing Doc K and just handed my hubby right over to him (heh heh).

Pam

[Samantha42]

SOOO Glad I found this post!! I am actually a medical assistant for an Endocrinologist so I feel like I could definitely help with any questions you have! Also, I'm starting medschool in August and am considering endo as a specialty, and I agree with a lot of what you guys are saying. I am also hypothyroid and I KNOW that even if my TSH is 2, my Ft4 and Ft3 can be low and I feel hypothyroid. I feel best at the lower end of the range (0.5-1).

[nonstickpam107]

Well, if your FT3 and FT4 ARE low, that's not a good thing, lol and we ALL feel bad with them that way.

I need a FT4 of almost midway of lab range, and a FT3 of all the way at HIGHEST point of IT'S range.

Most of the women in America are having problems with endo's not Rx'ing T3, OR unDERtreating them for low FT3, OR they won't Rx. natural thyroid hormone..instead they want to push synthetics on people (I agree with using synthetic T4 and Cytomel IF the doc has NO experience with Armour...but I'm getting HUNDREDS of emails from patients who are telling me the doctor's are telling THEM they don't 'need' T3 AT ALL....). As a result, there are LISTS of good thyroid doc's (and only 10% of them are endocrinologists!!! ...Most endo's just do diabetes really well, and NO T3 OR bio identical hormones.).

If the endo you work for does Armour, AND bio identical hormones, let us know.

Edited: My doctor is holding a teaching seminar in Chicago next month to teach other doctors how to adjust thyroid and bio identical hormones....doctors around the country have signed up (their patients have pushed some of them, lol) but, sadly, hardly ANY from Chicago....Illinois is a very difficult state to get good, natural, bio identical treatment (and the three docs that DO a good job...are all DO's...not surprising....many of the best thyroid docs are DO's in Illiniois).

Pam

[Samantha42]

Hey --

Nonstick-- the endo I work for is soooo against Armour, but I take 9 grains of Armour a week. Whenever I have a problem he always jokes and says "it'c because you're on Armour!" But I started on Synthroid and even though my levels were in the hyper range I didn't feel better and switched to Armour. Within 3 weeks I had lost 10 pounds and felt like a new person!!

Right now my TSH .2 (Low), my FT4 is 0.9 and my FT3 is 433 (High). I went to get it tested because I felt so hypothyroid! And now here is my endo saying I'm slightly hyper.

I see Dr Lieblich in Highland Park, and even though he is against natural thyroid I told him I loved it and he said I could stay on it! So he keeps writing em' prescriptions and I'm happy

I am SO glad I found this link. It has been so hard for me to get Doctors to understand how I feel. When my TSH is "normal" at 0.7-2 I feel SO tired and lethargic.

When do you guys feel a TSH is too low? I have only felt hyperthyroid twice in my life. Once my TSH was <0.01. The other time was 0.01. But I have been at 0.03, 0.04, 0.02 and felt just fine.

Also, my Dr. was saying that giving T3 is a bad idea because it "spikes" your level of the hormone which can lead to bone loss, etc. Have you heard this?

Since hypothyroidism is so common you'd think it would be easy and simple to treat, but I constantly feel like I'm treating myself and all the Dr's do are order blood tests and write rx's. And even then, I find I tweak my dosage myself, and actually, I even order the bloodwork myself sometimes, too.

I can't wait the 7 years to be a doctor, I want my physicians to respect and listen to how I feel now!

Thanks in advance for your responses!

[nonstickpam107]

We've seen more bone loss and heart problems, bp problems in UNDERtreated women!! Here is a website that I'm sure YOU will appreciate:

www.thyroidmanager.org it's written FOR doc's by doc's. I've been researching in the thyroid/endocrine field for over 20 years, and a thyroid patient advocate for over 10. One of the best websites is www.thyroid.about.com I almost died from a myxedema coma...the doctor I was seeing misdx'd me Graves and I had both Hashi's AND Graves.

Armour was the ONLY treatment for over 50 years, then the synthetics came out with Big Pharm needin' the big bucks. Now, your FT4 is very low, and as you get older (I'm talking going towards menopause here, and peri meno) that's not going to 'sit well' with your other hormones. Everything you do to adjust the thyroid impacts the estradiol, progesterone (the thyroid won't work well without progesterone matter of fact) and free testosterone....so sometimes the patient does a little 'better' taking Armour PLUS a tad of synthetic T4.

Goodness, wish we were talking face to face, lol. OH, the drug reps (how would YOU like it if your doctor let a drug rep tell him how to medicate YOU???) came up with telling the docs that Armour isn't 'a real drug' and that they don't know how much of T4 and T3 is 'in it' that it's not 'stabile'...um...the FDA approves all Rx's and Armour is one of them, so that's pretty funny. OH, and I've had some doc's tell me I'd get 'Mad Cow' from it.

The BOTTOM LINE: The reason the doc's don't want you on Armour is because they make no money from it. Since Armour is from a pig, and you cant' get a patent on a pig...therefore, Big Pharm can make NO money from it. The same doc's who dont like Armour don't like bio identical HRT either....you can't put a patent on plant material. '

It doesn't MATTER WHERE THE TSH IS. Can't say it enough. My TSH is around .003 all the time. It's the FT's you use to titrate dosage. If you are hyPER than you have loose stool (many in one day), you shake, your thigh muscles won't work, and you'll be very weak in the knees, and you have heart palpitations. That's hyPER.

Pam

[DivineHealth]

Originally Posted by Samantha42

I went to get it tested because I felt so hypothyroid! And now here is my endo saying I'm slightly hyper.

My endo did the same thing I had been treated by my ND and even though my test results seemed fairly normal, she said we treat symptoms and people, not test results. So she had me on Westhroid....3 gr per day. I was feeling fine.

When I went to see the endo, she freaked out and said I was now HYPER and she could tell because my eyes were big.... DUH.... I have had big brown eyes all my life; I get complimented on them all the time. So she took me off Westhroid and put me on Armour (after me begging to stay on natural stuff). She lowered the dose to 2 gr.

She also will only give me 2 months Rx at a time and requires I test every 60 days.

My ND gave me a whole year's worth in one Rx and told me to tweak it myself.

I think I'm going back to my ND....... We know our own bodies!

[nonstickpam107]

Tina, if it were ME, I'd go back to the ND too, lol. And Armour IS natural thyroid with about the same amount of T's that Westhroid has (Westhroid is supposed to be 'washed' of any allergens...but hard to get...so now you KNOW the endo doesn't know that Westhroid is the SAME as Armour, lol). Armour has 37mcg.T4, and 9mg. T3.

Pam

[DivineHealth]

Originally Posted by nonstickpam107

Tina, if it were ME, I'd go back to the ND too, lol. And Armour IS natural thyroid with about the same amount of T's that Westhroid has (Westhroid is supposed to be 'washed' of any allergens...but hard to get...so now you KNOW the endo doesn't know that Westhroid is the SAME as Armour, lol). Armour has 37mcg.T4, and 9mg. T3.

Pam

Thanks, Pam! Yes, my endo had never even heard of Westhroid.....
but heck, she's the specialist, not me...

[carrielyn]

I received the readings that my doctor did on my thyroid. The TSH is 0.05 and the T4 is 1.0 and the T3 is 33. I asked about having the FT 3/4 done and he said no. His diagnosis is that I cut my Armour back from 90 mg to 60 mg. I'm going to give it try and if I don't get some energy back I have the name of endo on my insurance plan that I will be seeing. My (non-fasting) glucose was good though and for that I'm grateful.

Any input would be most appreciated.

[inatic]

Get a new doctor!

[nonstickpam107]

www.Texas_Thyroid_Groups@Yahoo.com

Pam

[TinaBina]

I've surfed all over trying to find out if Borage Oil is safe to take with thyroid replacement and haven't had any definitive luck. I've stopped taking the EPO until I find a safe alternative.

I was wondering the same thing, I was taking EPO for hair loss, but stopped when I found out it could interfere with the thyroid hormone, but I think it was really helping my hair.

Does anyone know if Borage Oil interferes with thyroid hormone and would it have the same effect for hair loss as the EPO?