Do I need to switch to Armour?

averyjenn · 11-30-2009, 06:46 PM

I'm on synthroid .75 and now going up to .88 I think it is, whatever is the next level up. My endo is FABULOUS - she put me on synthroid when my TSH was 2.26 but my symptoms were really bothering me, plus I have an enlarged thyroid. She suspects Hashi but my antibodies always comes back normal (7 recently with the range 0-34). I forgot to mention to her but I was seen by a reproductive endo for years for miscarriages and one time they tested me when I was pregnant and my antibodies were elevated. They did an ultrasound and she thought by looking at it that I have Hashimoto's.

My latest TSH was 1.72 and my symptoms were coming back which is why she's upping my synthroid. My FT4 was 1.7 (0.82-1.77) and my FT3 was 2.6 (2.0-4.4). I'm thinking with what I'm reading that I would benefit from Armour, is that right? Is that better for Hashi? She would switch if I asked her, she really is fantastic and totally listens. TIA!

nonstickpam107 · 11-30-2009, 07:40 PM

First off, let's cut to the chase. You don't treat thyroid going by TSH. TSH is a pituitary test.

Your FT3 is nonexistant and it SHOULD be higher than FT4. She can give ya T4 all day but you aren't going to feel much better if she doesn't give T3 also. Synthetic T3 is called Cytomel. So..instead of up the Synthroid, keep it where it was, and add 5mcg. Cytomel in the am and 5mcg. in the early afternoon for four weeks, retest FT4, FT3 and up to 10mcg. am and 5 to 10 mcg. Cytomel early afternoon. Easy.

You don't want the reformulated crap that's being called Armour right now. Easier just to add T3 to your T4. KWIM?

ETA: problem being that adding ANY teensy amount of T3 is gonna drive that TSH all the way down to about .40 or so..which is a good thing...most normal human women with a good thyroid have a TSH of under a 1....but some docs will freak and take the T3 back off of ya..cuz they certainly don't want a NORMAL patient...eeek!!!...but you know what I mean.

Pam

averyjenn · 12-01-2009, 05:46 AM

Thanks Pam, I knew something was up when I saw these numbers. I feel like a truck hit me. I'll be calling my doc!!

nonstickpam107 · 12-01-2009, 07:28 AM

And you have a large goiter. T4 can be given till the 'cows come home' but it's T3 that 'shrinks' goiters. So, you're taking a lot of what you already HAVE. But, you know that now.

Yanno what? If you WERE on Armour (or Naturethroid, or Westhroid, or Thyroid from Can.) your TSH would be .00002 or something like that and your FT4 would be about midway of range (not over...maybe a smidge under) and your FT3 would be 2/3 to 3/4 of the range (like your FT4 is NOW). That's NORMAL HUMAN THYROID LABS. And your doc would rip you off of that so fast...why? Cuz your doc is looking at TSH and thinks your TSH is 'good' (it's not..should be much lower, she's torturing you) and has prolly never SEEN a 'normal' FT4 (cuz she likes to give a LOT of T4...women like a lower T4 and a high T3). Sigh.

That's WHY so many patients get Armour then their docs take them right back off..cuz the doc has never seen a TSH that low (ooh, you're hyper!!!! NOT) and a FT4 that low, yet a FT3 that high (cuz they've been sold a bill of goods based on a test that was derived using samples from 12 young MEN!!!!!!! then called it 'TSH' ).

Pam

averyjenn · 12-01-2009, 08:06 AM

Hey Pam, she didn't mention Armour, I was thinking of cytomel. She's actually really cool and someone that you recommended to me months ago. I love that she thinks outside the box - thinks I may have Hashi given my mom has it and my thyroid is enlarged (she never mentioned goiter though, it's swollen on one side, does that mean goiter?) even though my antibodies are always fine.

She also said if my thyroid was above 1.5 she'd up my synthroid but gave me the script before we got the labs back for the upper dose. She's always gone by how I feel instead of what my labs look like. Honestly, I think she's great.

I'm calling the nurse now.

Leo41 · 12-01-2009, 02:13 PM

Jenn-

The level of antibodies isn't always accurate for diagnosis. I had a biopsy of one of my thyroid nodules, and the pathologist confirmed Hashi's from that. Afterwards, my endo tested my antibodies, and he said that were it not for the biopsy, he would not have diagnosed Hashi's based on the antibody level. That's why a lot of doctors don't bother testing because the treatment is the same for hypo, whether or not it's caused by Hashi's.

So if you get an antibody test, and your doctor can't diagnose Hashi's from it, that doesn't necessarily mean that you don't have it.

averyjenn · 12-01-2009, 02:28 PM

Yup, that's why she's not sure what to say about the Hashi - trust me, I don't want it. I'd rather have "normal" thyroid issues LOL. And really if I do, doesn't sound like they treat it that differently anyway, right?

nonstickpam107 · 12-01-2009, 03:13 PM

They don't treat it any differently (the good docs that is...the good ones don't go by TSH....). The reason I always say to test TPO AB is because of the fact that it is an autoimmune disease...and one can turn into more than one if not treated.

The lists I have are PATIENT recommended Jenn..so doesn't mean I recommend her (or any doctor who tends to dwell on TSH) and I make it a POINT to NOT see doctors who go by TSH or give it any meaning whatsoever (seriously, MY doc doesn't test my TSH..doesn't bother...goes by my FT's and symptoms...and always tests T3).

Pam

averyjenn · 12-02-2009, 09:01 AM

My endo called in a Cytomel prescription for me!!!

I love her!

nonstickpam107 · 12-02-2009, 10:47 AM

Yay...now...a warning first...the PDR says that only 25mcg. Cytomel is 'available' and that's not true....it is available in 5's, 10's. And lately, we've been seeing lots put on a HUGE amount of Cytomel...just HUGE and going hyper and then having to start all over. Do you know how much she called in? (And the generic is as good as the brand name too).

Pam

clarke · 12-02-2009, 11:40 AM

Hi,
I am on 88 of synthroid and 10 of cytomel, ( 5 in the morning and 5 in the afternoon). Feel great - I am without a thyroid too. Good luck to you.

averyjenn · 12-02-2009, 11:56 AM

Pam, she said 5 in the morning and 5 in the afternoon or 10 total for the day. I'm taking the generic too. I go back in Feb to get my bloodwork again.

2bflawless · 12-02-2009, 12:17 PM

AveryJenn, I am glad you are getting the medication you really need (T3). Pam suggested putting the 5mcg under my tongue and letting it disolve, that really made a difference for me. I hope you feel better real soon!

nonstickpam107 · 12-02-2009, 02:20 PM

Very good Jenn. First things you should 'feel' are: getting warmer...maybe a little quickening of the heartbeat, etc. (So you don't freak, lol).

Pam

watcher513 · 12-02-2009, 04:03 PM

"First things you should 'feel' are: getting warmer...maybe a little quickening of the heartbeat, etc. (So you don't freak, lol)."

Definitely what Pam said. I was given 12.5 mcg. (1/2 of a 25 mcg) at first and it definitely gave me those symptoms, even to the almost too much point, bordering on palpitations but not quite. So I take 1/4 now and it's perfect (but a pain the butt to split that half tab). That 5 mcg 2x/day should work great for now. She cut my Levothroid back from 100 mcg. to 75 mcg when she added the Liothyronine.

You should be feeling better soon!!

nonstickpam107 · 12-02-2009, 04:15 PM

And I don't recommend taking it 'sublingually' (under tongue) because you are also on a T4 Rx. hormone.

You should definitely start to feel a little more 'energy' over the next couple of weeks Jenn. And you need to keep in mind that you might even want to 'lower that T4' a bit (cuz your FT4 is kind of high for a human

) and then up the am dose Cytomel to 10mcg. and afternoon kept at 5mg. (the normal human thyroid makes approximately 18 to 27mcg. of T3 in any given day...and a grain (60mg. ) of Armour (or any porcine thyroid) contains about 37mcg. T4 and 9mg. of T3). Just thought you might want to know those particulars if ever you want to 'fight' for dessicated natural OR get more Cytomel.

One thing that Cytomel WILL do is lower your TSH to um..nuttin' in some cases. Some docs going by TSH a lot will yank that back off of you..you know your doctor best and if you even think that may happen, I suggest you NOT take your afternoon cytomel or your first morning dose and THEN go and test (I know...I don't have to do that cuz my doc goes by FT4/FT3...but for those of you who do have to do it...well, there ya go, Merry Christmas, ha ha).

Pam

11-30-2009, 06:46 PM	#1
averyjenn Queen of Cream Cheese Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 10,676 Gallery: averyjenn Stats: 240/156 now 185/165/160 5'6" WOE: Low calorie/low carb Start Date: 2/21/05	Do I need to switch to Armour? I'm on synthroid .75 and now going up to .88 I think it is, whatever is the next level up. My endo is FABULOUS - she put me on synthroid when my TSH was 2.26 but my symptoms were really bothering me, plus I have an enlarged thyroid. She suspects Hashi but my antibodies always comes back normal (7 recently with the range 0-34). I forgot to mention to her but I was seen by a reproductive endo for years for miscarriages and one time they tested me when I was pregnant and my antibodies were elevated. They did an ultrasound and she thought by looking at it that I have Hashimoto's. My latest TSH was 1.72 and my symptoms were coming back which is why she's upping my synthroid. My FT4 was 1.7 (0.82-1.77) and my FT3 was 2.6 (2.0-4.4). I'm thinking with what I'm reading that I would benefit from Armour, is that right? Is that better for Hashi? She would switch if I asked her, she really is fantastic and totally listens. TIA! __________________ ~Jenn~ ~~Life is too short not to be fabulous all the time!~~ SNARK goals 1. Walk 15 miles on TM 2. Do two other exercises this week 3. Eat clean 4. Keep calories to no more than 1,400 per day but stay around 1,200. Keep carbs to <20. Become my friend! Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...14&ref=profile

11-30-2009, 07:40 PM	#2
nonstickpam107 Thyroid Patient Advocate Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: NE Indiana Posts: 14,736 Gallery: nonstickpam107 Stats: Just right for now, need to hit the gym more WOE: Started w/Atkins/Now BFFM Start Date: Nov. 23 2000	First off, let's cut to the chase. You don't treat thyroid going by TSH. TSH is a pituitary test. Your FT3 is nonexistant and it SHOULD be higher than FT4. She can give ya T4 all day but you aren't going to feel much better if she doesn't give T3 also. Synthetic T3 is called Cytomel. So..instead of up the Synthroid, keep it where it was, and add 5mcg. Cytomel in the am and 5mcg. in the early afternoon for four weeks, retest FT4, FT3 and up to 10mcg. am and 5 to 10 mcg. Cytomel early afternoon. Easy. You don't want the reformulated crap that's being called Armour right now. Easier just to add T3 to your T4. KWIM? ETA: problem being that adding ANY teensy amount of T3 is gonna drive that TSH all the way down to about .40 or so..which is a good thing...most normal human women with a good thyroid have a TSH of under a 1....but some docs will freak and take the T3 back off of ya..cuz they certainly don't want a NORMAL patient...eeek!!!...but you know what I mean. Pam __________________ So many fireworks. So little time. "You can't get a patent on a pig part" Last edited by nonstickpam107; 11-30-2009 at 07:42 PM..

12-02-2009, 04:03 PM	#15
watcher513 Senior LCF Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sonoma County, CA Posts: 368 Gallery: watcher513	"First things you should 'feel' are: getting warmer...maybe a little quickening of the heartbeat, etc. (So you don't freak, lol)." Definitely what Pam said. I was given 12.5 mcg. (1/2 of a 25 mcg) at first and it definitely gave me those symptoms, even to the almost too much point, bordering on palpitations but not quite. So I take 1/4 now and it's perfect (but a pain the butt to split that half tab). That 5 mcg 2x/day should work great for now. She cut my Levothroid back from 100 mcg. to 75 mcg when she added the Liothyronine. You should be feeling better soon!! Last edited by watcher513; 12-02-2009 at 04:06 PM..

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12-01-2009, 05:46 AM	#3
averyjenn Queen of Cream Cheese Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 10,676 Gallery: averyjenn Stats: 240/156 now 185/165/160 5'6" WOE: Low calorie/low carb Start Date: 2/21/05	Thanks Pam, I knew something was up when I saw these numbers. I feel like a truck hit me. I'll be calling my doc!!

12-01-2009, 07:28 AM	#4
nonstickpam107 Thyroid Patient Advocate Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: NE Indiana Posts: 14,736 Gallery: nonstickpam107 Stats: Just right for now, need to hit the gym more WOE: Started w/Atkins/Now BFFM Start Date: Nov. 23 2000	And you have a large goiter. T4 can be given till the 'cows come home' but it's T3 that 'shrinks' goiters. So, you're taking a lot of what you already HAVE. But, you know that now. Yanno what? If you WERE on Armour (or Naturethroid, or Westhroid, or Thyroid from Can.) your TSH would be .00002 or something like that and your FT4 would be about midway of range (not over...maybe a smidge under) and your FT3 would be 2/3 to 3/4 of the range (like your FT4 is NOW). That's NORMAL HUMAN THYROID LABS. And your doc would rip you off of that so fast...why? Cuz your doc is looking at TSH and thinks your TSH is 'good' (it's not..should be much lower, she's torturing you) and has prolly never SEEN a 'normal' FT4 (cuz she likes to give a LOT of T4...women like a lower T4 and a high T3). Sigh. That's WHY so many patients get Armour then their docs take them right back off..cuz the doc has never seen a TSH that low (ooh, you're hyper!!!! NOT) and a FT4 that low, yet a FT3 that high (cuz they've been sold a bill of goods based on a test that was derived using samples from 12 young MEN!!!!!!! then called it 'TSH' ). Pam

12-01-2009, 08:06 AM	#5
averyjenn Queen of Cream Cheese Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 10,676 Gallery: averyjenn Stats: 240/156 now 185/165/160 5'6" WOE: Low calorie/low carb Start Date: 2/21/05	Hey Pam, she didn't mention Armour, I was thinking of cytomel. She's actually really cool and someone that you recommended to me months ago. I love that she thinks outside the box - thinks I may have Hashi given my mom has it and my thyroid is enlarged (she never mentioned goiter though, it's swollen on one side, does that mean goiter?) even though my antibodies are always fine. She also said if my thyroid was above 1.5 she'd up my synthroid but gave me the script before we got the labs back for the upper dose. She's always gone by how I feel instead of what my labs look like. Honestly, I think she's great. I'm calling the nurse now.

12-01-2009, 02:13 PM	#6
Leo41 MAJOR LCF POSTER! Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2,947 Gallery: Leo41	Jenn- The level of antibodies isn't always accurate for diagnosis. I had a biopsy of one of my thyroid nodules, and the pathologist confirmed Hashi's from that. Afterwards, my endo tested my antibodies, and he said that were it not for the biopsy, he would not have diagnosed Hashi's based on the antibody level. That's why a lot of doctors don't bother testing because the treatment is the same for hypo, whether or not it's caused by Hashi's. So if you get an antibody test, and your doctor can't diagnose Hashi's from it, that doesn't necessarily mean that you don't have it.

12-01-2009, 02:28 PM	#7
averyjenn Queen of Cream Cheese Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 10,676 Gallery: averyjenn Stats: 240/156 now 185/165/160 5'6" WOE: Low calorie/low carb Start Date: 2/21/05	Yup, that's why she's not sure what to say about the Hashi - trust me, I don't want it. I'd rather have "normal" thyroid issues LOL. And really if I do, doesn't sound like they treat it that differently anyway, right?

12-01-2009, 03:13 PM	#8
nonstickpam107 Thyroid Patient Advocate Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: NE Indiana Posts: 14,736 Gallery: nonstickpam107 Stats: Just right for now, need to hit the gym more WOE: Started w/Atkins/Now BFFM Start Date: Nov. 23 2000	They don't treat it any differently (the good docs that is...the good ones don't go by TSH....). The reason I always say to test TPO AB is because of the fact that it is an autoimmune disease...and one can turn into more than one if not treated. The lists I have are PATIENT recommended Jenn..so doesn't mean I recommend her (or any doctor who tends to dwell on TSH) and I make it a POINT to NOT see doctors who go by TSH or give it any meaning whatsoever (seriously, MY doc doesn't test my TSH..doesn't bother...goes by my FT's and symptoms...and always tests T3). Pam

12-02-2009, 09:01 AM	#9
averyjenn Queen of Cream Cheese Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 10,676 Gallery: averyjenn Stats: 240/156 now 185/165/160 5'6" WOE: Low calorie/low carb Start Date: 2/21/05	My endo called in a Cytomel prescription for me!!! I love her!

12-02-2009, 10:47 AM	#10
nonstickpam107 Thyroid Patient Advocate Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: NE Indiana Posts: 14,736 Gallery: nonstickpam107 Stats: Just right for now, need to hit the gym more WOE: Started w/Atkins/Now BFFM Start Date: Nov. 23 2000	Yay...now...a warning first...the PDR says that only 25mcg. Cytomel is 'available' and that's not true....it is available in 5's, 10's. And lately, we've been seeing lots put on a HUGE amount of Cytomel...just HUGE and going hyper and then having to start all over. Do you know how much she called in? (And the generic is as good as the brand name too). Pam

12-02-2009, 11:40 AM	#11
clarke Very Gabby LCF Member!!! Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 3,148 Gallery: clarke	Hi, I am on 88 of synthroid and 10 of cytomel, ( 5 in the morning and 5 in the afternoon). Feel great - I am without a thyroid too. Good luck to you.

12-02-2009, 11:56 AM	#12
averyjenn Queen of Cream Cheese Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 10,676 Gallery: averyjenn Stats: 240/156 now 185/165/160 5'6" WOE: Low calorie/low carb Start Date: 2/21/05	Pam, she said 5 in the morning and 5 in the afternoon or 10 total for the day. I'm taking the generic too. I go back in Feb to get my bloodwork again.

12-02-2009, 12:17 PM	#13
2bflawless MAJOR LCF POSTER! Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA Posts: 1,159 Gallery: 2bflawless Stats: 12/4-6/6 WOE: Atkins Start Date: August 2007	AveryJenn, I am glad you are getting the medication you really need (T3). Pam suggested putting the 5mcg under my tongue and letting it disolve, that really made a difference for me. I hope you feel better real soon!

12-02-2009, 02:20 PM	#14
nonstickpam107 Thyroid Patient Advocate Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: NE Indiana Posts: 14,736 Gallery: nonstickpam107 Stats: Just right for now, need to hit the gym more WOE: Started w/Atkins/Now BFFM Start Date: Nov. 23 2000	Very good Jenn. First things you should 'feel' are: getting warmer...maybe a little quickening of the heartbeat, etc. (So you don't freak, lol). Pam

12-02-2009, 04:15 PM	#16
nonstickpam107 Thyroid Patient Advocate Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: NE Indiana Posts: 14,736 Gallery: nonstickpam107 Stats: Just right for now, need to hit the gym more WOE: Started w/Atkins/Now BFFM Start Date: Nov. 23 2000	And I don't recommend taking it 'sublingually' (under tongue) because you are also on a T4 Rx. hormone. You should definitely start to feel a little more 'energy' over the next couple of weeks Jenn. And you need to keep in mind that you might even want to 'lower that T4' a bit (cuz your FT4 is kind of high for a human ) and then up the am dose Cytomel to 10mcg. and afternoon kept at 5mg. (the normal human thyroid makes approximately 18 to 27mcg. of T3 in any given day...and a grain (60mg. ) of Armour (or any porcine thyroid) contains about 37mcg. T4 and 9mg. of T3). Just thought you might want to know those particulars if ever you want to 'fight' for dessicated natural OR get more Cytomel. One thing that Cytomel WILL do is lower your TSH to um..nuttin' in some cases. Some docs going by TSH a lot will yank that back off of you..you know your doctor best and if you even think that may happen, I suggest you NOT take your afternoon cytomel or your first morning dose and THEN go and test (I know...I don't have to do that cuz my doc goes by FT4/FT3...but for those of you who do have to do it...well, there ya go, Merry Christmas, ha ha). Pam