Low Carb Friends  
Netrition.com - Tools - Recipes - Home

Go Back   Low Carb Friends > Inspiration and Wisdom > Past Amazing Posts!
FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Forum Jump
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-28-2004, 11:24 AM   #1
Junior LCF Member
nobimbo's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 24
Gallery: nobimbo
WOE: low carb
Why Low Carb Should Be High Fat...

"Trying to keep both your fat and carb intakes low in the hope of losing weight more quickly? It's probably not a good idea, and you do it only at your own risk.

Your body needs energy to perform all the little daily tasks it's called upon to do. It takes energy to walk, to digest food, to sit in an erect position, to move, to breathe -- even to think. It even requires energy to sleep, and for your body to repair itself of all the little damages it incurs during daily life.

Fortunately, your body is a very efficient power plant. It can use any of three fuels to generate the energy it needs. Only if it runs out of those fuels will it be totally unable to produce energy and cease to operate. But before it reaches that state it goes into a stage comparable to rolling blackouts -- a condition in which it warns you through various symptoms including, but not limited to, hunger, aches and pains, extreme fatigue, bowel irregularities, and even problems with the texture of your skin and hair, that it needs more fuel. However, you should never let your body get to the point of warning you that it's out of fuel. Here's why:

The three types of fuel the body can use are carbohydrates, fats, and protein. Carbohydrates are the body's "preferred" fuel -- the one it will use first, if available. If there are no carbs (sugars and starches) available, then it will use fats. And only as very last resort -- after having warned you via the "rolling blackout" method that it's in real trouble -- will the body use protein as a fuel.

That's because the protein you eat is needed by the body's organs and muscles, and is constantly used by those organs and muscles to keep in good repair. So if you require protein to produce the energy for your daily activities, you divert it from its prime -- and very important -- purpose. You could even end up cannibalizing your body, causing a breakdown of first its muscles and then the major organs you need to simply sustain life. (This, by the way, is why some doctors and nutritionists are so convinced that low-carbing will shrivel your muscles, eat your liver and do unspeakable things to your kidneys. They don't consider the fact that the body will use fat for energy before it'll use protein if it's supplied with enough fat for its needs. And because they're so conditioned to the low-fat way of eating they can't even imagine anyone eating enough fat to supply their body with energy, for heaven's sake!)

Now back to the body's preferred fuels. We are mostly conditioned from birth to use carbohydrates for fuel, so the body will use them automatically. (There's a good reason why human breast milk -- nature's intended food for infants -- contains more than 1.5 times the carbohydrates that cows' milk does.)

Most people get more than enough carbohydrates to fuel their bodies' daily activites. The body, being a well-run power plant, puts the leftovers in storage to use in the future if it's needed. But it can't store carbohydrates, so it turns them into fat and keeps them on deposit in the body's cells. And we see it walking around the streets wherever we go, hanging off bodies in a most unattractive way. Some of us see it every time we look in the mirror, as well, and don't like the way it looks on us.

An excess of fat storage is usually the reason we choose a low-carb way of life. We want our bodies to use the stored fat for energy and leave our bodies lean and sleek looking. And, as we all know, it works. But we can make it work far more efficiently by understanding the way the body uses fat.

The switchover from using carbs for energy to using fats for energy is only semi-automatic. In the absence of carbs the body will use fat, but only sparingly. Remember, the body is conditioned to store that fat against the time when it runs out of fuel. It considers fat an "emergency ration" and it goes into conservation mode, producing only the amount of energy that's necessary to sustain life, and you go into those "rolling blackouts." You may feel hunger, fatigue, muscle aches, joint pain, etc. You may become extremely constipated. Or you may just feel a general malaise. This happens to many people when they begin a low-carb diet, and often keeps them from following through. "Oh, I tried that," they'll say, "And it didn't work for me."

There is a way, though, to train the body to use fat automatically as its preferred fuel, and one that it can safely use to produce unlimited amounts of energy. You do that by depriving it of carbohydrates, while at the same time providing it a good supply of dietary fat. After a while -- usually only a few days -- this convinces your body that it can always expect to have a bountiful supply of fat to use as fuel for its energy generator and takes it out of conservation mode. Because it has both dietary fat and stored fat to draw upon, and has no reason to stay in conservation mode, the body will produce lots and lots of energy. You'll avoid the "rolling blackout" warnings and feel far better, with plenty of energy. And this will continue for as long as you eat enough fat to keep your body out of conservation mode.

This is one of the reasons that doctors who support the low-carb way of eating tell you that you shouldn't eat fat-free mayonnaise, salad dressings, cheeses, etc. (The other reason, of course is that most of them contain added carbohydrates just to make them barely edible.) It's also the basis for the widely touted and very effective "Fat Fast" method of jolting your body into weight loss if you find yourself in a persistent plateau.

But what the doctors often forget to mention is that these days even eating full-fat condiments and foods may not provide you with as many fats as you should have to encourage your body to freely burn fats. This is because so many of today's foods are routinely stripped of the good, healthy fats they used to contain.

For example, food animals are bred to be as close to fat-free as possible. Beef and pork is touted as being "lean," and it is -- almost to the point of being tasteless. It's nearly impossible to get chicken with the fat and skin still attached -- I have to order it specially from my supermarket. Recipes routinely call for pans to be sprayed with fat-free sprays rather than using fats to keep the food from sticking, and even those of us who follow a low-carb way of life often use them, thinking we're doing the right thing.

So to avoid depriving our bodies of both fats and carbohydrates at the same time, we often have to consciously add fats to our diet. Trying to eat a low-fat or reduced-fat diet along with a low-carb diet is almost a sure recipe for failure. It may appear to be effective, at least for a while. You may lose some weight, but despite cutting your carbohydrates down to almost zero you probably won't lose as much as you would if you were eating more fat. You surely won't feel nearly as good as you would if you ate more fat. And you may even end up falling by the wayside along with those people who say "Oh, I tried that, and it didn't work for me.""

Source: http://www.low-carb.org.uk/lowcarbhighfat.htm
nobimbo is offline  

Sponsored Links
Old 02-28-2004, 01:15 PM   #2
Junior LCF Member
LCmommyof3's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 10
Gallery: LCmommyof3
Stats: 170/161/135 @ a short 5' 2", 38 yrs old
WOE: Atkins
Start Date: April 8, 2005
Very interesting. So is keeping your fat at around 70% an appropriate percentage??
Proud Mommy of 3
Ashlee 5/26/89, Wyatt 9/11/01, Haylee 8/8/03

Recomitted to Atkins WOE: 4/8/05

[color=blue] Ultimate Goal: Loose 35 pounds by 08/30/05![/color]
9 Pounds Gone So Far!!!!!!!!!!!

PROUD Member of [color=red] The Sayonara CARBOnara Challenge [/color]
Rank is :[color=blue] *CORPORAL* (26 % to Goal)[/color]
LCmommyof3 is offline  
Old 02-28-2004, 01:38 PM   #3
Senior LCF Member
Cap57's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Maine
Posts: 343
Gallery: Cap57
Stats: 160/154/135 (5'8")
WOE: low carb
Start Date: Sept. 2003
Thanks for a great article. It explains something I knew about, but didn't totally understand. It also gives you a response to well meaning friends who tell you how bad Atkins is because of "all that fat". Now I think I'll go make some Buffalo Wings for dinner!
Cap57 is offline  
Old 02-28-2004, 02:25 PM   #4
Senior LCF Member
ebonyeyz28's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 109
Gallery: ebonyeyz28
Stats: Then: 274.5, size 28 Now:173, Size 12!
WOE: Atkins Maintenance
Start Date: December 27, 2002
Thanks for sharing! You've become our very own info central!

This article just proves what I seem to have to tell people everyday! Fat really is good for you and I have never worried about it! That was the one thing that made me know I could stick to this WOL, cause I looooove fat!


ebonyeyz28 is offline  
Old 02-28-2004, 02:39 PM   #5
Junior LCF Member
shrcpr's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1
Gallery: shrcpr
WOE: Low Carb
Start Date: October 2003
Thanks for posting. Personally, I have a hard time keeping my fat percentage above the protein percentage. I have to watch my calories as wells as carbs now due to being more in maintenance. I have a hard time finding high fat stuff I want to eat without using up all my calories. I'll have to make sure I do some experimenting and keep the fat up there.
shrcpr is offline  
Old 02-28-2004, 03:47 PM   #6
Junior LCF Member
sciangel's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Euroland
Posts: 1
Gallery: sciangel
Stats: ugh/ok/just right
WOE: low carb
Start Date: Feb 2004
sciangel is offline  
Old 02-28-2004, 06:35 PM   #7
Posts: n/a
Gallery: Habica
So, if I'm eating 20g of carbs, pluse protein and still feel washed out then I'm problaby not getting enough fat? Am I understanding right?

Sometimes I feel very tired at the end of the day. At 11:00 I'm reaching for the sheets! That's not like me and with a second job, I can't afford to be wiped out.
Old 02-28-2004, 07:03 PM   #8
Major LCF Poster!
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern USA
Posts: 1,147
Stats: 168, Size 12/138 lowest/goal 148 5'7
WOE: Carb rotations/mod carb
How about more cream cheese?

... all that considered, can I enjoy as much cream cheese as I desire throughout the day? I love cream cheese mixed with 2 ounces of feta cheese, garlic powder and a chopped green onion! It's one of my favorite snacks with celery and green peppers.

Can I enjoy as much of this "dip" as I desire then?
WATCH-ME-SHRINK is offline  
Old 02-28-2004, 09:07 PM   #9
Junior LCF Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Warrenton, VA
Posts: 1
Gallery: Ethansmommy
WOE: Atkins
Start Date: August 2002
Thanks again!

You post such interesting information. I think I will keep this on file to refer to. It is really true. With all the variation of plan, it seems I need to remind myself these days to keep that fat up girl!

I, too, love my fat and that fact has made me LESS fat. Hurrah!!

Ethansmommy is offline  
Old 02-29-2004, 06:11 AM   #10
Junior LCF Member
aki's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: State of Denial-But I'm moving
Posts: 3
Gallery: aki
Stats: 172.5/138/135
WOE: Counting calories
Start Date: March 4, 2005
Thanks nobimbo! I knew I loved butter and bacon grease for a reason!
aki is offline  
Old 02-29-2004, 06:30 AM   #11
Senior LCF Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 144
Gallery: Joycelyn
Thank you, another great post!

If I low carb and also try to reduce my fats - it just doesn't work!

The more fats I eat the more satisfied I feel, and the more energy I have.

Just recently, I had someone on Atkins mention that the more fat they ate, the better they did!

I think a lot of us are still brainwashed from all the low fat misinformation we received from the media for over 20 years. I still think twice before I give my husband butter for his veggies...I immediately wonder about heart disease. It's hard to get deprogrammed after 20 years of low-fat brainwashing, even though I know better!
Joycelyn is offline  
Old 02-29-2004, 06:35 AM   #12
Junior LCF Member
CroakerJoe's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Santee, Ca.
Posts: 10
Gallery: CroakerJoe
Stats: 275/190/185 - 190
WOE: Atkins (Modified)
Start Date: 11/08/2003
Wow, great article.. it explains why we should eat more fat better than anything I've read.. and in simple terms. I've bookmarked this for my DW to read as she remains unconvinced and thinks I'm crazy for doing things like cooking my eggs in the bacon grease.

I can't understand why she doesn't get it when the obvious results are right before her eyes.. (my weight loss and obvious change in well being..).
- CJ

" I don't want to be a fat man, I've not the patience to ignore all that.
Hate to admit to myself, half of my problems came from being fat.
Won't waste my time feeling sorry for him, I've seen the other side to being thin.
Roll us both down a mountain and I'm sure the fat man would win." - Jethro Tull
CroakerJoe is offline  
Old 02-29-2004, 07:25 AM   #13
Junior LCF Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 8
Gallery: bluesmoke
Great! I'm saving the article and the link. There are people here who need to be reminded of this often because of the demonizing of fat that has gone on the last 30+ years. Thanks, Nyah levi
bluesmoke is offline  
Old 02-29-2004, 12:38 PM   #14
Junior LCF Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Northwest-- registered 12/2000
Posts: 37
Gallery: KastaDiva
WOE: Bernstein/Banta--HF, Very LC, Lower Protein
Start Date: May 17, 1999
This brings to mind Tanya Zilberter's "program:" The Fat Burning Index.


What is the Fat Burning Index ??
by Tanya Zilberter, PhD

The FAT BURNING INDEX?is a tool allowing to describe potential influences of foods on lipolysis - "burning" the body's fat for fuel. We use the standard "ketogenic ratio" approach to calculate it. The higher the index, the more body's fat can (potentially) be burnt. To lose body fat, one should eat foods with Fat Burning Index ? greater than 1.5. Only then the body will recognize its own fat as fuel and burn it. We use this technique to make our dieters lose fat without watching portions and counting calories, fats, or carbohydrates.

And her analysis of some of Atkins' recipes for fat burning potential:


When I analzyed Dr. Bernstein's diabetes program using her method, which is eating 1.5 grams fat for every gram of carb and protein added together, her program is very similar to Bernstein's.

Bernstein's objective is to control blood sugar. When you control blood sugar, you control insulin levels. If after eating insulins are kept in tight control, that allows the body to release glucagon, which allows us to access our stored body fat. Eating more fat ultimately will reduce hyperinsulinemia (chronically high insulin levels, even when one hasn't eaten), which will allow our body to release glucagon. If there is too much insulin in our blood, the body won't release glucagon. No glucagon, not fat release from our bodies. So, from this perspective, it's easy to see why one's diet should have more fat.

This is what I posted in a previous thread nobimbo started, with a couple of revisions:

The reason this works is because both carbs and excess protein will generate blood sugar; fat does not. So, to control the amount of generated blood sugar after eating, which then also controls the amount of insulin, the diet must be higher in fat, which doesn't generate blood sugar, and lower in carbs and protein, both of which will generate blood sugar. Lower insulin levels means less fat is stored from our diet, and it makes it easier for our bodies to access our stored fat.

Here is an example from Dr. Bernstein's book, Diabetes Solution, converted to the Fat Burning Index idea, which actually is very close to what Bernstein's diet really is. With Bernstein's program, carbs are mostly fixed at 30 per day, and protein about 72 grams per day (but protein amount is variable, based on individual need):

Breakfast: 6 gr carb, 18 gr protein = 24 gr of carb/protein = 36 gr fat (24 + 12 to make it the 1.5 ratio) = 96 calories from protein/carbs + 324 calories from fat = 420 calories from a ketogenic ratio.

Lunch: 12 gr carb, 24 gr protein, 54 gr of fat = 144 calories from carb/protein + 486 calories from fat = 486 calories from a ketogenic ratio.

Dinner: 12 gr carb, 30 gr protein, 63 gr fat = 168 calories from carb/protein + 567 calories from fat = 735 calories from a ketogenic ratio.

Fat to protein to carb ratio: 77:17:6

That's 1641-ish calories for the day, but because the ratio is ketogenic (insulin inhibiting), no fat is stored, and your body can access it's stored fat because excess insulin isn't blocking the release of glucagon. Therefore one can eat calories that high, and not gain weight, and even actually lose weight...in theory.

I know from experience that ratios like this helps to naturally control my diabetic mom's blood sugars without need of high insulin doses. This 1.5 ratio makes it possible to really control the amount of generated blood sugar, which controls the sugar spike after eating, which also then controls how much insulin is released. This kind of diet would help hypoglycemics, pre-diabetics and diabetics, and those that are stalled from having too much protein in their diet.

Dr. Bernstein mentions in Diabetes Solution that if someone is watching carbs correctly, and still can't lose weight, it is his recommendation for people to start reducing the amount of protein they eat, but to never go below 30 grams of protein per day. He's learned from experience with his patients that too much protein is a common weight loss staller.

I've known about this "fat burning" concept ever since reading Bernstein's book back in 1999, but having the 1.5 number for fat makes it easier to grasp the concept, and gives a number to plan what one is going to eat. Zilberter made it easier to understand.

I know there are those that don't believe this at all...they believe protein should be higher, and fat lower. Whatever works for the individual. I know that people that are medically (genetically) insulin resistant need to maintain tight control of their blood sugar, and IMO, Zilberter's Fat Burning Index is an easier way to achieve this. (end)

KastaDiva is offline  
Old 03-05-2004, 10:16 PM   #15
Junior LCF Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Northwest-- registered 12/2000
Posts: 37
Gallery: KastaDiva
WOE: Bernstein/Banta--HF, Very LC, Lower Protein
Start Date: May 17, 1999
I ordered Zilberter's Fat Burning Index Diet CD, and it arrived today. Just briefly glancing through the program, I came across this info:

"It is important that the totals {ratios} of every meal for the ketogenic diet should exceed 1.5, or approximately 4 grams of fat for every single gram of both carbs and proteins. Most low carb diets don't pay attention to these peculiarities; this, perhaps, explains a certain percentage of failure on any low carb diet."

From memory, I thought it was 1.5 grams of fat, so I tried to find the info again on the web pages I bookmarked, only to find those pages are no longer there...those URLs bring up other pages. Good thing I saved those pages to my computer, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to recheck this.

1.5 grams of fat per every gram of carb and protein I mentioned above is the MINIMUM amount of fat for the recipe (or food) to be considered ketogenic. In the diet software, Zilberter says the fat amount should really be 4 grams of fat per every gram of carb and protein.

Here is an example of the ketogenic ratio for a day's worth of recipes. I won't list the recipes, just the ratio numbers:

Breakfast: 3.1 g. carb; 6.8 g. protein; 37.5 g. fat; 375 Cal.

Lunch: 2.9 g. carb; 6.5 g. protein; 37.5 g. fat; 375 Cal.

Dinner: 2.8 g. carb; 6.8 g. protein; 36.7 g. fat; 370 Cal.

Daily Total — 8.51 g. carb; 20.18 g. protein; 111.75 g. fat; 1120 Cal.

Zilberter mentions that inevitably, 1/2 of every gram of protein eaten will be converted to blood sugar. I've read in other sources the number is 52-58%.

So, I calculated blood sugar rise, using the calculator that came with the diet program:

18 grams protein = 104 mg/dl of generated blood sugar
24 grams protein = 139 mg/dl of generated blood sugar
30 grams protein = 174 mg/dl of generated blood sugar
40 grams protein = 232 mg/dl of generated blood sugar
50 grams protein = 290 mg/dl of generated blood sugar
60 grams protein = 360 mg/dl of generated blood sugar
70 grams protein = 406 mg/dl of generated blood sugar
80 grams protein = 464 mg/dl of generated blood sugar

These numbers make it very easy to see why eating excess protein can stall weight loss, and even cause weight gain, if the protein isn't balanced by sufficient fat. Eating a lot of protein negates the effect of cutting carbs. This again confirms what Bernstein says in his book about protein. If someone wants to control the amount of insulin released, they have to watch both carbs and protein. I know this is true because of what I've seen with my insulin dependent diabetic mom's blood sugars. If someone eats 10 oz of steak in one sitting, that's approximately 60 grams of protein, which will generate 360 mg/dl of excess blood sugar. If that same person is also eating 20 grams of carb with that meal, add approximately another 40-60 mg/dl of generated blood sugar, and it's easy to see why people are having such slow or no weight loss (assuming they don't also some other metabolic thing happening such as PCOS.)

No doubt there will be people that will disagree strongly with this, and that's OK. Not everyone needs to maintain such tight control on insulin levels. But, if someone is having trouble losing weight, the first place to look is the protein amount, and not the fat amount, because fat doesn't trigger insulin response. Excess protein does.

I am very surprised and disappointed, tho, about something I saw in the recipes...MARGARINE!! Why in the world do the recipes use margarine??


Last edited by KastaDiva; 03-05-2004 at 10:52 PM..
KastaDiva is offline  
Old 03-05-2004, 10:40 PM   #16
Senior LCF Member
LoriWants2Lose's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Anywhere my imagination takes me
Posts: 488
Gallery: LoriWants2Lose
Stats: 228.6/192/155
WOE: Atkins
Start Date: October 12, 2012
Terrific information. Just want to add that since abandoning low fat and adding healthy fats into my diet, my skin is no longer dry. I had HORRID dry skin that absolutely nothing would cure. And I've always drank a ton of water, so it isn't that change.

"We're all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." ~ Oscar Wilde

First goal: Onederland - reached Dec. 2012
Next goal: 180s (not been there in 15 years!)
Final goal: 155 (within the healthy range for 5'7")
LoriWants2Lose is offline  
Old 03-05-2004, 10:47 PM   #17
Zwisch's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Washington DC
Posts: 5
Gallery: Zwisch
Stats: 22W/12-14/6-8 or whatever feels right
WOE: Carbohydrate deficiency/Caloric SUFFICIENCY
Start Date: Fall 2001
Thank you for reminding me of this. I will make my best effort to go back to 70% fat in my diet.
Zwisch is offline  
Old 03-05-2004, 11:38 PM   #18
Junior LCF Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Northwest-- registered 12/2000
Posts: 37
Gallery: KastaDiva
WOE: Bernstein/Banta--HF, Very LC, Lower Protein
Start Date: May 17, 1999
Adding up the protein numbers from the recipe examples seems weird....only a total of 20.18 grams of protein for all day?? That's not even enough for the body to maintain itself! The average person needs at least 42 grams of protein for daily maintenance.

This is confusing....

KastaDiva is offline  
Old 03-06-2004, 05:39 AM   #19
Junior LCF Member
Cinnabar's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Neverland!
Posts: 10
Gallery: Cinnabar
Stats: Half-Caf Soy Vanilla Latte
WOE: Broken Snickers Snackers Diet
Start Date: 10/10/03 217
this is excellent!!!!!

I have trouble with the fat thing too. I think subconsciously I start lowering fat: less dressing, fatty meats, cheese, oils, ect. And I get stuck.

The last few days I've dramatically UPPED the fat & have started losing weight & feeling great again!

Thanks so much for posting this!!!!
Cinnabar is offline  
Old 03-06-2004, 07:49 AM   #20
Junior LCF Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 9
Gallery: debbie_20005
Stats: 190/165/145
WOE: Banta, intermittent fasting
Fat Burning Index

Hi KastaDiva,

I'm on Fat Burning Index (FBI) since their trial in 2002. Lost all I wanted in 2 months (my husband, too!) and kept those 8 kilos off until late 2003. Now I am back on the diet after the holiday season < sigh > to lose 4 kg.

I can't remember what's the recipe calling for margarine you've mentioned but let me tell you this: they are very good at help and support. Email them and ask "Why in the world do the recipes use margarine?!" Sit back and see what happens :)))

They analyzed and modified for me at least 7 of the recipes I wanted to include in my family menu and they gave me suggestions on how to have beef (low FBI) on my very first week.

Originally posted by KastaDiva
I ordered Zilberter's Fat Burning Index Diet CD, and it arrived today. <snip>

I am very surprised and disappointed, tho, about something I saw in the recipes...MARGARINE!! Why in the world do the recipes use margarine??

debbie_20005 is offline  
Old 03-06-2004, 07:58 AM   #21
Junior LCF Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 9
Gallery: debbie_20005
Stats: 190/165/145
WOE: Banta, intermittent fasting
Protein requirements

That's me Debbie again :)

Don't be discouraged. This protein thing is for a limited time. Later on the diet, you'll be able to have more, especially when you reach the week with strength exercises. You can add not carbs but protein instead, it'll go when you start buiding up your muscles.

I've been on very liberate protein intake for the year after I reached my weight loss goal and had no problem with it.

= Debbie

Originally posted by KastaDiva
Adding up the protein numbers from the recipe examples seems weird....only a total of 20.18 grams of protein for all day?? That's not even enough for the body to maintain itself! The average person needs at least 42 grams of protein for daily maintenance.

This is confusing....

debbie_20005 is offline  
Old 03-06-2004, 08:00 AM   #22
Junior LCF Member
kdog41's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 28
Gallery: kdog41
Stats: 197/156.6/160
WOE: Atkins Maintenance
Start Date: 01/12/2003
Great article Thanks for posting.
Goal 06/20/2003
Age 44 - Height 5' 9.5" - Male
Waist 40.5/31
Total Cholesterol 217/204
HDL 37/62
LDL 158/130
LDL/HDL Ratio 4.27/2.10
Total/HDL Ratio 5.9/3.3
Triglycerides 110/58
kdog41 is offline  
Old 03-06-2004, 08:01 AM   #23
Senior LCF Member
Shancopp's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: IN
Posts: 145
Gallery: Shancopp
Stats: pregnant/fat again/thin again
Start Date: 1/1/09
Thanks for the interesting read....so nice to read it in simple terms. This explains why the fat fast works. I average 2lbs a day when doing the fat fast. Makes me wonder how the meat fast would work then????

This would be a great "sticky" up top!!!

What % would be appropriate, I wonder? 75 is the min. for the fat fast, so for everyday eating, maybe 65-70%? I am going to shoot for 65% and 1600 cals approx. everyday (when not fat fasting, which will be 3 days a month).

Thanks again!!
Grandma to 2 cutie pies!
Shancopp is offline  
Old 03-06-2004, 08:11 AM   #24
Junior LCF Member
Goodsands's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 2
Gallery: Goodsands
WOE: Lo Carb
That is the best explanation I have read. I didn't know it but it was my higher intake of fat that I'm getting is what is accounting for my change in my sense of well-being. Very interesting!

Now I think I'll have that Spinach Muenster pie for dinner tonight!
Wherever you go, there you are.
Goodsands is offline  
Old 03-06-2004, 03:00 PM   #25
Junior LCF Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Northwest-- registered 12/2000
Posts: 37
Gallery: KastaDiva
WOE: Bernstein/Banta--HF, Very LC, Lower Protein
Start Date: May 17, 1999
Hi Everyone,

Deb, I see you are newly registered. Welcome to the board! And, it's great we have a Fat Burning Index diet veteran here. ;-)

Thanks for explaining the protein thing. I haven't had too much time yet to really look through the program, so it's good to know this is somewhat like an "induction" thing. ;-)

You asked about the margaine recipes. I think these were from week one's menu list on the CD:


Egg, scrambled
Cream, heavy whipping
Margarine with high-fiber bread
Drinks with non-nutritive sweetener


American Cheese
Drinks with non-nutritive sweetener


Green beans
Drinks with non-nutritive sweetener

I know to subsititute butter for margarine...I was just surprised about it because it is full of trans fatty acids. Is it possible Zilberter isn't aware of the dangers of trans fats? Has that info not yet reached Sweden? I don't mean this as a criticism. It's just hard for me to grasp that Zilberter apparently is unaware of the dangers of trans fats. Or, maybe the margarine is different in Sweden than it is in the U.S....margarine is not made with partially hydrogenated oils in Sweden.

Deb, would you mind asking them about the margarine thing, since you've been using their program? I really don't want to email them about the margarine question. I'll just use butter.

I also want to add something Mary Enig said in Know Your Fats about using fat instead of protein for energy, page 75, paraphrased: "Protein weighs twice the amount of as fat does for the same energy potential. Plus, when protein breaks down into energy, by-products are produced that require extra processing to make it safe for the body. Fat, on the other hand, breaks down "cleanly:" to carbon dioxide and water." (end) Gosh...natural gas versus coal, eh?? Another reason to get our energy from fat, and not excess protein.

Shancopp, I don't know how threads become sticky's. I guess you'd need to contact one of the administrators. Or, this thread could be transferred to the Past Amazing Posts board...but wait until it's run it's life...people stop posting to it.


Last edited by KastaDiva; 03-06-2004 at 03:04 PM..
KastaDiva is offline  
Old 03-06-2004, 03:35 PM   #26
Junior LCF Member
Toma's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1
Gallery: Toma
Originally posted by KastaDiva
that's approximately 60 grams of protein, which will generate 360 mg/dl of excess blood sugar. If that same person is also eating 20 grams of carb with that meal, add approximately another 40-60 mg/dl of generated blood sugar
I think your numbers are off. By those figures, 1 gram of protein is 6 mg/dl, while 1 gram of carbohydrate is only 2-3 mg/dl. Which would mean protein raises blood sugar 2-3 times more than carbs, when it should be only slightly more than half.
Toma is offline  
Old 03-06-2004, 03:50 PM   #27
Committed to Succeed
Magicsmom's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 3,173
Gallery: Magicsmom
Stats: 282/210/140
WOE: Low carb/portion control
Start Date: Re-re-restarted 3/5/15
This information is very interesting. I was looking at the KISS program the other day and it reads like a low-fat form of low-carbing. So, could someone please tell me how KISS works, in light of this information?

Being fat is hard, Losing weight is hard, Maintaining weight loss is hard. Choose your hard.
~ Origin unknown~

Magicsmom is offline  
Old 03-06-2004, 03:57 PM   #28
Junior LCF Member
Marbel's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Middle-earth
Posts: 21
Gallery: Marbel
Stats: 160/getting there/120 5'2"
WOE: Atkins (taking the scenic route)

It's all really interesting. Could you post an example for breakfast? I put in 2 strips of bacon and 2 eggs fried in a little butter into Fitday and came up with 28 g fat, 17 g protein, 1 g carbs. Leaving out bacon, it's still 24 g fat to 14 g protein. How do you get a 4:1:1 ratio?

How can we get more info and recipes? Are the above URLs no longer valid?

Marbel is offline  
Old 03-06-2004, 08:48 PM   #29
Junior LCF Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Northwest-- registered 12/2000
Posts: 37
Gallery: KastaDiva
WOE: Bernstein/Banta--HF, Very LC, Lower Protein
Start Date: May 17, 1999
Toma, those protein numbers aren't mine...they are from the diet software's calculator.

As far as carbs are concerned, how much one weighs determines how much blood sugar is generated by one gram of bioavailable carb. For example, a child that weighs 70 lbs, one gram of carb can generate about 10 mg/dl of blood sugar. A person that weighs 280, one gram of carb can generate only about 2.5 mg/dl of blood sugar. These numbers are from Dr. Bernstein's book, Diabetes Solution. For my mom, one gram of carb generates about 5.6 mg/dl of blood sugar. Of course, these numbers aren't cast in gold, but they are very close, nonetheless. I can easily guestimate mom's insulin need by using 5.6.

I've read sources that said that blood sugar generated from protein roughly follows the same numbers as carbs. I don't know for sure that is true. It seems logical from what I've seen with my mom. I don't know how the diet software calculates those numbers...what the numbers are based on. However, I know for a fact that excess protein will generate blood sugar...I've seen it in my insulin dependent diabetic mom. Everyone needs the experience of taking care of an insulin dependent diabetic...you can learn a lot about how food can affect blood sugar in general. I've seen the effect in myself, as well, from blood fructosamine tests, which measure overall blood sugar control. When I was eating a lot of protein..aka Atkins, my overall blood sugar control was almost in diabetic range, and I was eating <20 grams of carbs.! When I stopped eating as much protein, and upped fat, the fructosamine test dropped to low normal. The only difference....dropping protein and upping fat. No one can convince me that protein isn't converted to blood sugar...

Hi Marbel!! We are supposed to pay for recipes and other info. This concept intrigued me enough that I ordered the diet CD and a year's worth of recipe updates. The URLs are now different from when I first accessed the pages. I copied 3 breakfast recipes...ingredients only, with partial nutrition info. I hesitate to do so because it's plagiarizing, but I'm doing it for illustration of the different ketogenic ratios:

The recipes don't say how many servings. I guess one would have to divide the totals by how much one ate. However, according to Zilberter, amounts don't matter, just the ketogenic ratio number.

Ketogenic ratio: 3.01

8 slices bacon
2 medium onions, sliced
12 slices sunflower bread
1/2 pound Swiss cheese, shredded
8 eggs
4 cups heavy cream
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
1/4 teaspoon pepper
red pepper sauce to taste

Calories 6572.59
Protein (g) 164.8663 261.68%
Fat (g) 633.0196.67 654.82%
Carb (g)67.21
Fiber (g) 5.76

Ketogenic ratio 2.50

800 g zucchini
125 ml sunflower or corn oil
6 eggs
ground oregano
freshly ground black pepper

Calories 1537.57 190080.92%
Protein (g)48.395096.78%
Fat (g) 139.9163.33 220.92%
Carb (g)29.91-- --
Fiber (g)10.89-- --

Ketogenic ratio 1.75

2 boiled chicken breast, diced
6 sl bacon; chopped
1 onion; chopped
6 eggs
1/4 c heavy cream
Salt, Pepper

Calories 2213.36 290076.32%
Protein (g) 161.6563 256.59%
Fat (g) 160.5696.67 166.09%
Carb (g)24.25-- --
Fiber (g) 2.88-- --

I think there is a bug in the ketogenic ratio calculator. I put in the numbers you said and came up with 0.39. When I quadrupled the fat, the number dropped to 0.23. When I put the fat grams in the carb field, and carbs in the protein field, with protein in the carb field, the ratio comes out like 1.92, which seems more correct. But because I don't understand how the formula works, I can't check it.

This is the formula that is used. If someone can explain how it works, I'd be very happy!!

The formula to calculate the amount of allowed carbohydrate, fat, and protein is:

K/A=(0.9 fat +0.46 protein) divided by (1.0 carb +0.1 fat+0.54 protein)

This formula is exactly the same formula used for treating epilepsy. The difference between the epilepsy ketogenic diet and FBI diet is the amount of water allowed, and no calorie restriction. Apparently, the epilepsy diet restricts water and calories.

In answer to your last question...you would need to add more "pure" fat until you've achieved the 4:1:1 ratio. That might be in the form of butter, or coconut oil, or olive oil, or even cream. The carb and protein content of heavy cream is minimal compare to how much fat is in it. If you tried to add more fat by eating more meat, obviously, you would also add more protein, as well.

I don't completely understand all of this yet, and because I suspect the ketogenic ratio calculator doesn't work right, I don't know how much I can trust. I basically got the program CD for the ketogenic calculator and recipes.

Debbie_20005, would you mind describing what your diet is like in more detail? Has your basic diet been like what is described....fat 4 times as high as the carbs and protein? Thanks!

KastaDiva is offline  
Old 03-07-2004, 02:43 AM   #30
Junior LCF Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 9
Gallery: debbie_20005
Stats: 190/165/145
WOE: Banta, intermittent fasting
From Debbie

To answer the questions I can answer.

KastaDiva's questions:

Bug in the calculator: I never ordered the CD, I've been receiving a new plan every week after I reported my prev. week's results. I don't know whether they sell this weekly plan with feedback, but you can contact them at dietandbody.com/mfeedback.html - I wrote to them yesterday but I guess can expect reply only on Monday.

Margarin in menu: I see now what you mean. But this menu is *not* by FBI, it's a sample from a standard CKD and it only goes late down the road, when you are doing LOTS of weights. On my diet, it was when I already lost all I needed.

See - this is why my diet plan was better than you've bought on CD: I couldn't do a thing before I was ready. I strongly advise that you write them and ask for a weekly planning with their help INSTEAD of the CD.

About the links: I checked them and this is my impression: A new site bought (or something) Tanya Zilberter's program so this is why dietandbody.com sells now the CD. I don't know. I'll tell you when they answer my email. However, my experience with them was only positive, they always were happy to communicate with me.

Epilepsy diet question: of course this is the basics of any ketogenic diet. However, for blocking the seizures, the ratio is above 3:1 which means FBI 3. Water restriction is for keeping the ketone body concentration high at all times, and calorie control - this is only my guess - is for keeping them sufficient so children's growth wouldn't be too slow. I can imagine that children lose their appetite on this diet.

= Debbie
debbie_20005 is offline  

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:34 AM.

Copyright ©1999-2017 Netrition, Inc. All rights reserved. - Terms of Service | Privacy Policy
LowCarbFriends® is a registered mark of Netrition, Inc.