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Old 04-15-2017, 11:03 AM   #1
Baricat
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Kevin's White Bread Question

Hello, friends! I'm new to the forum, and have spent many a night up way later than I should be reading voraciously so many of the earlier posts here. What fun!

The one that caught my eye was Kevin's white bread. I broke the 3-minute mile ordering all the ingredients like RWS and both WPIs. I made it this morning, and I'm not sure if I did something wrong. I don't recall reading anyone say it had a somewhat slightly bitter aftertaste. All I seemed to see were raves.

I followed the recipe exactly, and I am a retired pastry chef/chef de cuisine, so I'm relatively fluent in the process of baking.

To me, the mark of a successful bread is how does it taste "nude." No butter, no jam, not in a sandwich, just by itself. This isn't anything I would eat again that way, at least not as it is. The texture is all right. Dense, as expected from reading various reviews, but not objectionably so. This loaf is destined to be repurposed into breadcrumbs.

I've only made one other low carb bread recipe that I found on the web using mostly vital wheat gluten and flax, and experienced that same somewhat unpleasant taste. Made it twice, just to be sure it wasn't a fluke. It wasn't. Identical to the first results. (Those both enriched my breadcrumb canister, as well.) I thought it had to do with the large amount of VWG, but apparently not.

I am thinking of trying it again, with a little monkfruit sweetener, which might help neutralize the slightly acrid aftertaste. Just a theory. I was so excited that I had found THE bread that would rock my low carb world. Hopes dashed...

Anyway, did anyone else encounter this when making this recipe? Or is my palate just weird?

--Cat

Last edited by Baricat; 04-15-2017 at 11:04 AM.. Reason: Typo
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Old 04-15-2017, 02:11 PM   #2
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Which of his recipes did you make? The carbalose or carbqiuck bother some people and the WPI bothers some.
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Old 04-15-2017, 04:11 PM   #3
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Carbalose #1

I used his first Carbalose recipe. Sorry I forgot to make that clear. This is the first time I've ever used Carbalose, so you may be on to something. I have used Carbquik for pancakes and waffles, but the first time I did without adding any sweetener, they were a little too salty for my palate. As soon as I began adding just one envelope of Splenda (this was well before I found LCF. Now it's E all the way!) that ceased to be noticed.

--Cat

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Old 04-15-2017, 04:19 PM   #4
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Which?

It occurred to me that maybe a smarter question to ask would be which of Kevin's white bread recipes do you prefer, and why?

Any of you seasoned LCF members, please help out a newbie and weigh in! I would just like to hear what hose who have made some of the iterations thought of them in comparison. Hoping to avoid many further additions to my expensive, ever-growing breadcrumb pile.
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Old 04-15-2017, 10:53 PM   #5
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Barikat! Kevinpa was somewhat of a genius around here. I am so greatful for what he discovered and shared about LC baking. I regularly use his final flour mix recipe to make hamburger and hotdog buns, using the recipe for pita buns. I also make the white bread recipe that uses that flour mix. I use that one to make bread crumbs. Ate it once as bread, but found it too dry.

I never made his early Carbalose bread recipes. If you were trying an early recipe, you might want to try a later one--probably will lead to better results. As for your taste test--it doesn't surprise me that you weren't blown away by eating a naked slice. Based on my experience, no one has yet come up with a white LC bread that tastes like the real thing, and tastes great naked. Most LC bread tastes way better toasted with butter or something else on it. I think the WPIs impart a certain taste when used in the quantities that he did in his recipes. They are absolutely essential, though, for creating the texture and rise in his recipes.

What I do now is make my own recipe, which I have modified over time, to suit my own taste. You could do the same--I encourage you to try! Since I wanted a whole grain bread, I found one on here that I tried but couldn't get to rise. Then I began adding in some of the ingredients Kevinpa would use. I've changed it up 14 times. Now I have a whole grain bread that is about 4 g per slice and tastes great toasted with butter and peanut butter in it --my usual breakfast. It doesn't taste great plain--but who eats bread plain anyway?

Good luck to you on you LC journey!
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Old 04-16-2017, 07:20 AM   #6
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One thing I've learned from low carbing is to judge low carb replacement items for themselves not against their high carb items. I can't match high carb items exactly and if i try using the way I judge high carb, i will be disappointed in nearly everything i bake. That said I really like Kevin's flour mix and the breads I make with them. I've baked bread my whole life and bread fresh from the oven is a gift from the universe. The bread I make from Kevin's flour mix is not quite the same but since it's not going to be applied directly to my hips as I eat it, I'm happy. I agree it isn't the same as high carb "naked." But I enjoy it hot from the oven with butter.
Here is the flour mix I use

1 cup LC Cabalose cake or cookie flour mix

1/2 cup carbalose
1/4 cup wheat protein isolate 5000
1 Tbs wheat protein isolate 8000
1/8 cup almond flour
1 Tbs resistant Corn starch
1 tsp glucomannan powder

Then make this bread

3 cups of the above LC Carbalose cake and cookie flour mix
1/4 tsp. salt
2 tsp sugar
1 T yeast
Sweetener of choice to equal 3 T sugar
1/4 cup low carb milk
3/4 cup warm water ( adjust to make bread dough may need more or less)
2 T melted butter
1 egg


I make bread, rolls, hamburger and hotdog buns out of this.

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Old 04-16-2017, 07:25 AM   #7
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http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/sh...d.php?t=876791
If carb quick is more acceptable flavor wise you might check out this thread too.
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Old 04-16-2017, 04:49 PM   #8
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Thank you, Linda!

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Originally Posted by LindaSL View Post
Barikat! Kevinpa was somewhat of a genius around here. I am so greatful for what he discovered and shared about LC baking. I regularly use his final flour mix recipe to make hamburger and hotdog buns, using the recipe for pita buns. I also make the white bread recipe that uses that flour mix. I use that one to make bread crumbs. Ate it once as bread, but found it too dry.

I never made his early Carbalose bread recipes. If you were trying an early recipe, you might want to try a later one--probably will lead to better results. As for your taste test--it doesn't surprise me that you weren't blown away by eating a naked slice. Based on my experience, no one has yet come up with a white LC bread that tastes like the real thing, and tastes great naked. Most LC bread tastes way better toasted with butter or something else on it. I think the WPIs impart a certain taste when used in the quantities that he did in his recipes. They are absolutely essential, though, for creating the texture and rise in his recipes.

What I do now is make my own recipe, which I have modified over time, to suit my own taste. You could do the same--I encourage you to try! Since I wanted a whole grain bread, I found one on here that I tried but couldn't get to rise. Then I began adding in some of the ingredients Kevinpa would use. I've changed it up 14 times. Now I have a whole grain bread that is about 4 g per slice and tastes great toasted with butter and peanut butter in it --my usual breakfast. It doesn't taste great plain--but who eats bread plain anyway?

Good luck to you on you LC journey!
Linda, thanks for the warm LCF welcome! About Kevin, I hear you! Although I just got here, I've already spent countless hours reading past posts, and it would be impossible not to know that Kevin was pure genius, and generous, as well. How long has it been since he's passed? What a monumental loss, but how wonderful it is that his experiments and recipes still live on!

I think you're definitely on to something, Linda. I stayed up late again last night reading and digesting a few more of the pages on that thread. I did notice that in his last version, he drastically reduced the WPI 8000 and increased the WPI 5000. Also, he added sweetening (not familiar with Splenda quick packs, but found that it's the equivalent of one cup? of Splenda. Anyone know if that's correct? Seems like so much!) which should obviate the bitterness that was way too evident in his first recipe. Here, I thought I'd start at the beginning and work my way through all the recipes in the index he created in the first thread post.

In other threads, I came upon posts from Friends who found that a large percentage of wheat protein will contribute bitterness. That old recipe I found on the web that I had made multiple times had the same acrid taste. It was very high in VWG. So that's the common thread, a high dose of wheat protein. I'm not going nuts. Of course, there are those who might disagree...

Thank you for the pointer to Kevin's last bread recipe. I'm going to make it within a few days and will report back when I do. I have great hopes that the bitterness will be gone!

--Cat

Last edited by Baricat; 04-16-2017 at 04:50 PM.. Reason: Deletion of duplicate sig
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Old 04-16-2017, 05:03 PM   #9
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Hi, cselzler! I totally agree with you that the object of the game is not to exactly duplicate HC baked goods. That would be a fool's errand! I've been doing this LC for 10 years, and I long ago lost any illusions that I'm gong to create a low carb Milky Way bar that tastes just like the real thing!

That said, I'm looking for something that doesn't make me want to spit it out because it's so bitter. I'm reasonably tolerant, but the bitterness was such a turn-off that I couldn't finish even one bite. But since the texture was decent, I wasn't willing to give up on the recipe altogether. I was pretty sure it could be fixed. And some additional research revealed there was a reason for the bitterness, which will be overcome.

I'm going to actually make his last Carbquik bread recipe. Looks like it may do the trick! I don't generally find the taste of Carbquik to be awful, like some do. I make pancakes and waffles from it, and they turn out consistently good. If that bread recipe works, I'll then begin experimenting to see if I can't make a Carbalose version that doesn't make me gag! Would love to have some toast and pizza, plus something to use to make stuffing. Especially now that I bought two bags of Carbalose...

--Cat

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Old 04-16-2017, 05:10 PM   #10
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Oh - and czelzler, many thanks for the Carbalose baking mix recipe! It's great to have a tried and true recipe that you have made many times. No more resounding recommendation than that.
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Old 04-16-2017, 10:51 PM   #11
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Baricat, as I recall, Kevin passed away around 2011. A huge loss. His daughter popped in here awhile back. It really is like a family here.

His last white bread recipe, which I have made, was not bitter to my taste. Also, if you haven't picked up on this yet, you need to know that if you use the Lifesource Foods brand of WPI 5000, the formulation has changed. So, for every cup of WPI 5000 in Kevin's recipes, you only need to use 1/2 cup. If you were using double what you needed in that loaf you made, that might explain some of the bad taste. This change in the formulation also affects his final flour mix. I have posted my workaround for that.

Do let us know how your experiments turn out!
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Old 04-17-2017, 05:14 AM   #12
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Barikat,
It's strange how everyone's taste is different. When I first tasted carbquik recipes I was like you with the bread and couldn't stand even one bite. But I don't have a problem with Carbalose. Others have a problem with the WPI. It's a mystery to find which you are troubled by. Since you were bothered by VWG I would suspect the WPI may be a suspect. The flour mix I listed hasn't changed the WPI 5000 amount like LindaSL mentioned so since the WPI may be the flavor that bothers you, if I were you, I would adjust it if you use it. I'm not bothered by the WPI flavor.
The world of low carb is constant challenge, but it is so much better for me than the alternative way of eating. Since you have be eating low carb for 10 years you must have a wealth of low carb recipes to share. I look forward to your input. Let us know how your bread ingredient sleuthing progresses. The only problem I have with this type of sleuthing is the cost of all the ingredients when I'm trying to fix something to my liking. You may end up with several years worth of bread crumbs.
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Old 04-17-2017, 06:23 AM   #13
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Linda, no, I haven't found any info about the changed formulation yet. I've been reading as much and as fast as I can, but it's not surprising that I've missed some crucial nugget of info! Can you please post a link to that info, as well as one that includes your adjusted formulation (if it's in a different thread)? Obviously, that fact is a major game changer. What I'm wondering is how that affects the dough physically? I mean, if half of one ingredient is eliminated, won't that affect bulk and the wetness factor?

--Cat

I so appreciate your telling me that!
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Old 04-17-2017, 06:32 AM   #14
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cselzler, you are SO right!! The differences between palates is striking. I was convinced mine was just off the wall, but then I was able to uncover info that said I wasn't alone. Whereas that didn't solve the problem, it helped to make me feel like I wasn't completely losing my marbles.

And you're also so right about the expense of LC experimentation. The last couple of weeks, I've been something akin to a mad scientist, except my research is in a kitchen, not a lab. The hubs is working out of state right now, so he's not seeing all my many "what if?" failures. Good thing! He'd pop an aneurysm if he knew what all these ingredients cost.

--Cat

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Old 04-17-2017, 07:56 AM   #15
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I used to make and experiment with Kevinpa's breads all the time when he was still around and giving tips for tweaks and reformulating his bread mixes. My favorite bread, the one most like real bakery artisan bread, was the sourdough (I think there was a sourdough "string" somewhere). If I remember correctly, he used his final white bread baking mix and a real sourdough starter, which you can make yourself. I used his ideas and then I baked it in a steamy oven, spraying the inside of the oven every ten minutes with a bottle of water to get that amazing artisan crust.

Before the sourdough, I was really sensitive to the "tang" of Carbquik--could never use it at all--but his combination of Carbalose and the WPI 8000&5000 and almond flour made a good bread flour base. Still, I found that the unpleasant old burnt rubber tire flavor of the Carbalose came through if I wasn't very careful.

Yesterday, I made the flax and vital wheat gluten bread that somebody posted recently. Instead of vital wheat gluten, though, I used 1/2 cup of WPI 8000 and 3/4 cup of WPI 5000. The bread rose and baked beautifully and was VERY good. Even better when cooled and toasted--made wonderful garlic toast last night. Not sure I want to add any Carbalose flour to that as I think it would only contribute an unpleasant flavor and nothing positive. I'm going to tweak that recipe to reduce the flax and replace it with something else--pea protein, lupin flour, etc. to make a smoother loaf.
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Old 04-17-2017, 08:00 AM   #16
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You've probably already seen these, but here are a couple of links to Kevin's sourdough experiments:
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/sh...28#post7960628
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/sh...76#post7999676
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Old 04-17-2017, 08:13 AM   #17
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Here's a couple of links to some experiments I did with KP's final white bread mix. Scroll through for pictures and discussion of how the breads were tweaked/formed/baked

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/sh...d.php?t=759671

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/sh...t#post15543709

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Old 04-17-2017, 08:20 PM   #18
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Baricat, here are some threads regarding WPI 5000 that I found. There are lots of others. The last one below is where I described my solution to this issue.

http://lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/showth...light=WPI+5000
http://lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/showth...light=WPI+5000
http://lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/showth...light=WPI+5000
http://lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/showth...light=WPI+5000
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Old 04-18-2017, 06:44 AM   #19
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Sourdough, Here I Come!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dianafoot View Post
You've probably already seen these, but here are a couple of links to Kevin's sourdough experiments:
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/sh...28#post7960628
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/sh...76#post7999676
Diana, many thanks for your input! I did see that Kevin had developed a recipe for sourdough bread, and it is definitely on my short list to make. It was great to get your feedback about it, and to know that it passes muster with your sensitive palate, and why. Your response was so helpful!
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:01 AM   #20
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Perfect!

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Originally Posted by LindaSL View Post
Baricat, here are some threads regarding WPI 5000 that I found. There are lots of others. The last one below is where I described my solution to this issue.

http://lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/showth...light=WPI+5000
http://lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/showth...light=WPI+5000
http://lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/showth...light=WPI+5000
http://lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/showth...light=WPI+5000
Linda, I can't tell you how grateful I am for all you have done to help me with this. Those threads are exactly what I was looking for. I'm sure my having used 3/4 cup of each of the two WPIs accounted for the taste issue. That initial recipe was way over the top for both.

Finally have some time off today, so after I make myself a waffle for breakfast, making a successful bread is my only task for the day. Your advice is the guide that I know will get me there! I'll post my results when I'm done. Stay tuned...

--Cat
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Old 04-18-2017, 07:21 AM   #21
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Diana, after reading the threads you cited, I realize that although I have placed 3 different orders from Netrition in the last two weeks, I'm not done spending shipping and handling fees! I don't have RCS, only wheat. Ugh. The hubs is going to pitch a fit when he sees the credit card bill! So for today, I am going to give one a try that Sharon came up with when she was working with Kevin. I'm going to weigh out the ingredients, just to make sure I have it right. And am I correct that Not/Sugar has been replaced with Thick It Up?
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Old 04-18-2017, 10:26 AM   #22
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NO MORE BREADCRUMBS!!!

I was sweating it, as the loaf didn't rise a lot. And no oven spring. It sure didn't look like Sharon's pictures and I haven't a clue as to why, since I weighed and made no substitutions of any kind. But I soldiered on. And I'm so thrilled I did! My low carb world has been duly rocked.

NO trace of bitter taste. In fact, it's quite nicely flavored. Good texture. Just the right amount of chew. I'm blown away, simply put.

As for the rise, I suspect that when I get my RCS and can then use Kevin's last flour mix, that will take care of itself. But even if not, I can live with this. Totally!

The hubs and I are heading down to Cozumel next month for a two week scuba vacation to celebrate our anniversary. We have rented a condo on the beach so we can keep the keto thing going. Once I settle on the perfect bread formula, I will pack "kits" in zip-locks of everything minus the wet ingredients, then I will only have to add eggs, water, and a little oil to each kit, knead for a bit, and we can have BREAD...and toast, pizza, and hamburger buns. Woo HOO!

I feel like a little kid at Christmas!! And you all had a hand in it. As inadequate as it seems, thank you!!

Excuse me... I'm off to slather another slice with butter while it's still warm and sink my teeth into it with glassy-eyed, bread-scarfing satisfaction.

--Cat
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Old 04-18-2017, 10:25 PM   #23
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Baricat, so thrilled for you! And it's just the beginning. You have a world of fun experiments ahead of you and you too will zero in on the best bread recipe for you. It warms my heart that I could help you out. I am no baker, believe me. If it weren't for Kevinpa, I would still be choking down Julian Bakery garbage.

By the way: Regarding waffles, do you know about BettyR's waffle recipe? If not, search for it on this forum. They are the bomb!
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Old 04-18-2017, 10:35 PM   #24
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One more thing: the Resistant corn starch won't help with rising. It's purpose is to improve flavor. Rising issues can be caused by any number of things. Old yeast is one. Weather is another. Slightly too much water or too little can make a difference too. I make two loaves when I bake. I follow the same recipe for each one. Yet sometimes, one rises more than the other. Other times, both are enormous and Fluffy. And sometimes I get a puny rise in both. Who knows why? Wish I was a chemist so I could get to the bottom of this mystery.
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Old 04-19-2017, 06:42 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaSL View Post
One more thing: the Resistant corn starch won't help with rising. It's purpose is to improve flavor. Rising issues can be caused by any number of things. Old yeast is one. Weather is another. Slightly too much water or too little can make a difference too. I make two loaves when I bake. I follow the same recipe for each one. Yet sometimes, one rises more than the other. Other times, both are enormous and Fluffy. And sometimes I get a puny rise in both. Who knows why? Wish I was a chemist so I could get to the bottom of this mystery.
Linda, you started me on this journey, so you absolutely should have a warm heart for helping an ignorant newbie to find the light!

I will bookmark that waffle recipe next. I adore waffles - my favorite breakfast. In fact, I bought a new waffle iron just 5 days ago, becaus my old 43 year old one went south. On my first try with Carbquik waffles, the cord shredded, and the plastic coating literally fell off, leaving the wire exposed.

As for the mystery rise, it's beyond me. In culinary arts school, we had to take half a semester on the chemical processes involved with all aspects of baking, so I used to believe I was familiar enough with the mechanics not to flop too badly. So much for that!!

My yeast is always stored in the freezer, and is proved each time for activity verification. Water was not spring water, but filtered. If you've made two loaves where one shot up like a geyser, and the other barely rose, that's resounding proof that there really are kitchen gods. And who knows what I did or didn't do to displease them.

It wasn't that it didn't rise. It did, about an inch above the rim of the pan, so the texture of the bread was still enjoyable. It just wouldn't win any
beauty contests.

And that's OK. The only thing that I absolutely could not live with was that dreaded bitterness, imparted by too much wheat protein. Boom. Lesson learned.

Again, I'm sending out warmest thanks to you, cselzer, and dianafoot for the immeasurable help you gave me. My first Friends friends! I'm blessed to have finally found this forum. You three are da bomb!

--Cat
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Old 04-19-2017, 06:53 AM   #26
Baricat
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Linda, just checked out the waffle recipe you suggested and have a question. I was surprised to see it takes 1 cup of cheese. Is it a savory waffle? Several people posted that they use it for sandwiches. Or is the cheese flavor subtle (perhaps there for the purpose of texture?) such that they work as a conventional breakfast waffle with syrup?
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Old 04-20-2017, 05:31 AM   #27
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I love Sharon's recipes. Pasta, spaetzle, home fries, French fries, Dutch baby. She is a phenomenal cook.
Did you use the carbquik or carbalose recipe? I'm always interested in what works for breads. I am the only low carber in my house so I end up baking regular bread and my low carb bread. Last week I forgot which I was making and tried to double rise the rolls I was making. I had slightly risen hockey pucks. Edible but far from the nice fluffy buns I wanted.
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Old 04-20-2017, 05:37 AM   #28
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The waffle you questioned is a multi purpose waffle. Can be used in savory or sweet applications. Tastes again. Not my favorite waffle. I prefer the carbquik or carbalose one with additions. I prefer a more crisp waffle than the BettyRs. I can't get that one to crisp up. It burns before crisping in my iron.
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Old 04-20-2017, 07:47 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by cselzler View Post
The waffle you questioned is a multi purpose waffle. Can be used in savory or sweet applications. Tastes again. Not my favorite waffle. I prefer the carbquik or carbalose one with additions. I prefer a more crisp waffle than the BettyRs. I can't get that one to crisp up. It burns before crisping in my iron.
Thanks for the info about the waffle. Good to know that it doesn't get as crispy as the Carbquik waffle, which I like a lot. I'm with you. Crispy on the outside, soft on the inside - what could be better in the morning (unless you count pools of melted butter and syrup!)

I used Sharon's Carbquik bread recipe. I thought of a strong possibility last night for the underwhelming rise. She never mentions the size of the loaf pan she used. I used the standard 9"x5". I will try it the next time in and 8.5"x4.5" and see if that helps. That was probably the size she used. If a dough has use up most of its capital filling the pan, aka a horizontal rise, which always happens first, it won't have much energy left then to rise vertically.

In the meantime, I'm waiting on my most recent Netrition order to arrive (hopefully tomorrow) with my RCS so I can make Kevin's last flour mix and try a loaf with it. Just made stuffing this morning out of the 2/3 left of Sharon's loaf, mainly to use it up. Now, it's time to make a brined, spatchcocked (I just love that word and use it whenever I can!) roasted chicken with some gravy this weekend.

--Cat
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Old 04-20-2017, 12:36 PM   #30
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Quote:
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NO MORE BREADCRUMBS!!!

I was sweating it, as the loaf didn't rise a lot. And no oven spring. It sure didn't look like Sharon's pictures and I haven't a clue as to why, since I weighed and made no substitutions of any kind. But I soldiered on. And I'm so thrilled I did! My low carb world has been duly rocked.

NO trace of bitter taste. In fact, it's quite nicely flavored. Good texture. Just the right amount of chew. I'm blown away, simply put.

As for the rise, I suspect that when I get my RCS and can then use Kevin's last flour mix, that will take care of itself. But even if not, I can live with this. Totally!

The hubs and I are heading down to Cozumel next month for a two week scuba vacation to celebrate our anniversary. We have rented a condo on the beach so we can keep the keto thing going. Once I settle on the perfect bread formula, I will pack "kits" in zip-locks of everything minus the wet ingredients, then I will only have to add eggs, water, and a little oil to each kit, knead for a bit, and we can have BREAD...and toast, pizza, and hamburger buns. Woo HOO!

I feel like a little kid at Christmas!! And you all had a hand in it. As inadequate as it seems, thank you!!

Excuse me... I'm off to slather another slice with butter while it's still warm and sink my teeth into it with glassy-eyed, bread-scarfing satisfaction.

--Cat
I'm so glad you like my bread recipe! Give the "whole wheat" a try, too. Humor me and go to the store and buy a small package of fresh yeast. I have found that even in the freezer, the yeast can lose some of it's "kick". If you get better rise from the fresh yeast, you will know that it needs to be replaced. I had to throw out almost a whole bag of yeast that had been in the freezer too long when my bread stopped rising properly.
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