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Old 04-16-2017, 03:05 AM   #61
uhuschnu
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So while I've been reading (and loving!!) this forum forever now, I finally created an account to post a comment in this thread .

Made half of the recipe yesterday and turned it into rolls. Hands down the best lc yeast dough I have made until now (have already experimented quite a lot - tried dough for pizza, donuts or puff pastry with a mix of almound flour and whey before and while that was ok, it always turned out too dense or dry and all of the mixes I've tried for bread/rolls ended up either rubbery or somehow like a moist sponge and were turned into breadcrumbs )

I used half of the amount of everything (just regular instant yeast, no special brand) and activated the yeast with a bit of sugar and handwarm water, left it in the oven until it was very foamy with the light on and put my egg an the tbsp of butter in the oven as well to get a little warmer, since both came from the fridge.

Apart from the salt I seasoned the dry ingredients* with a bread seasoning mixture (Brotgewürz in Germany). I added half a tsp of soda and one tsp of ACV together with the yeast and butter and kneaded everything by hand for about 7-8 minutes, until the gluten had formed but wasn't too stringy. It still felt stickier thand a hc yeast dough after so much kneading does, though.
Let it rest in a plastic bowl with some cling wrap on it (again in the oven with the light on, but oven turned off) for a little more than an hour. The dough had about doubled in size and felt very fluffy and airy (still very sticky though).
I didn't really knead it again, just ripped of pieces and carefully shaped them into (a little weird looking) rolls and one bagel and let them sit on the parchment paper covered with cling wrap while the oven heated up.
I'd put a mug with water into the oven before, because, as I said, my other yeast dough experiments always turned out pretty dry. The rolls were in there for about 20 minutes.

*The golden flax seed meal I have (that's been unused in my kitchen for about a year, since I always feel it gives a slimy motuhfeel to baked goods, which I really don't like) is defatted - as most seed and nut meals in Germany are, since they're byproducts from oil-making. It has about 10% fat - that probably affects the outcome of every dough. Still I haven't changed the amount of fat in the recipe - and as it turned out, I don't need to. No slimy mouthfeel, no wet sponge or rubber ball, even with using that much gluten. I will definitely have to experiment with a bit of flax meal, combined with the oat fiber in my yeast dough experiments, since it seems to be able to counteract the rubberiness of gluten and still have a nice, airy texture. As soon as I figure out how to insert pictures here, I'll upload them ).
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Old 04-16-2017, 01:51 PM   #62
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I made this bread today with a few minor tweaks. It had a lovely aroma, a great crunchy crust and a good texture. I used Wheat protein isolates instead of the wheat gluten—1/2 c wpi 8000 and ¾ c wpi 5000—because that's what I had. I also used 2 tsp of rapid rise yeast instead of a tbsp of SA yeast. It rose beautifully and baked well and was delicious! Since both of the wpi's are higher in protein (90%&95%) than wheat gluten(70%), the resulting slices are a little lower in carbs. I used 1 tbsp Swerve instead of 4, but I'll use more next time, maybe a little Ideal brown or add a quarter tsp of molasses.

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Old 04-16-2017, 01:54 PM   #63
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This bread did rise more quickly than others have found--not sure if it was because of the rapid rise yeast or the wpi 5000 I used, but after 30 minutes it was well-risen. Then I had to wait 12 minutes for my oven to preheat, so the bread over rose and then fell a little during and after baking. Still had a great texture and flavor, though--if I had just eaten it and not seen it, I would never known that it had fallen a little bit.

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Old 04-16-2017, 02:02 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by tulipsandroses View Post
Sorry, I meant 1/4 cup of Einkorn Flour!! Not 1/2 cup

T&R, did you substitute 1/4 c of einkorn flour for 1/4 cup of gluten flour, or 1/4 cup of einkorn for 1/2 cup of gluten flour? In other words was your substitution 1:1?
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Old 04-16-2017, 03:35 PM   #65
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whoa, I did the carb counts for the bread that I made and the calories and carbs are a good bit less when you use the wheat protein isolates. At 70 calories and 0 carbs per 1/4 cup, that makes the calories from the two wpi's 350 and the carbs 0. The amount of vital wheat gluten in the recipe for this loaf is 600 calories and 15 g carbs. My loaf of 16 slices has 63 calories and .4 g carbs per slice, even with all the butter, eggs, and flax. Can't get any better than that!

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Old 04-16-2017, 03:39 PM   #66
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I'm risking being a very chatty member, here, lol, but I had to get in one last comment about this wonderful bread. I cut a slice in half and toasted it with butter, garlic, salt, and a little sprinkling of Italian herbs. Oh. My. Goodness. Real crusty garlic toast! Even DH like it and he never wants to eat my "breads".
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Old 04-20-2017, 03:10 PM   #67
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I sub WPI for VWG all the time to reduce carbs. It really makes a difference and doesn't affect the recipes much at all.
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Old 04-20-2017, 05:25 PM   #68
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I sub WPI for VWG all the time to reduce carbs. It really makes a difference and doesn't affect the recipes much at all.
Thanks to KevinPA for sharing this with us. Miss him
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Old 04-21-2017, 02:09 PM   #69
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I sub WPI for VWG all the time to reduce carbs. It really makes a difference and doesn't affect the recipes much at all.
I think the WPI's taste better than wheat gluten, too. I have stashes of both from many years ago when Jena Marie had bread mixes on her great low carb blog--they had a little actual bread flour in them, but oh, were they great mixes! Then along came Kevinpa with his fabulous experiments and off we went! Only thing was, I could never get used to the taste of Carbalose, even diluted, in his mixes. I think this bread is really good with no off tastes, and I'm going to experiment with substituting lupin flour for some of the flax meal next.
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Old 04-22-2017, 09:02 AM   #70
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I miss Kevin so much. He was brilliant, witty, generous, and always willing to help "debug" a recipe. Can't believe it has been six years.
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Old 05-16-2017, 07:52 PM   #71
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T&R, did you substitute 1/4 c of einkorn flour for 1/4 cup of gluten flour, or 1/4 cup of einkorn for 1/2 cup of gluten flour? In other words was your substitution 1:1?
Sorry for the late response - I subbed 1/4 cup einkorn flour for 1/4 cup of the VWG
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Old 05-16-2017, 07:58 PM   #72
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I had my first fail of this bread today. Every other time I've made it, it was awesome. I woke up about 3 AM and could not go back to sleep, I had already decided to make bread when I woke up but since I could not sleep I decided to go ahead and get started. I always make it in my breadmaker. So there are 2 things I did differently not sure which one accounted for my fail. My ingredients were cold. I melted the butter in the microwave but the eggs and flaxseed were cold. I also used WPI 8000 instead of VWG. It was a crumbly mess that I couldn't even get out of the bread maker! I was so looking forward to making an egg sandwich for breakfast
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Old 05-17-2017, 01:34 PM   #73
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I had my first fail of this bread today. Every other time I've made it, it was awesome. I woke up about 3 AM and could not go back to sleep, I had already decided to make bread when I woke up but since I could not sleep I decided to go ahead and get started. I always make it in my breadmaker. So there are 2 things I did differently not sure which one accounted for my fail. My ingredients were cold. I melted the butter in the microwave but the eggs and flaxseed were cold. I also used WPI 8000 instead of VWG. It was a crumbly mess that I couldn't even get out of the bread maker! I was so looking forward to making an egg sandwich for breakfast
I know a lot of people have success using WPI 8000 for VWG but that has never been the case for me. I really do think that the small amount of starch/carbs in VWG makes the difference in some recipes so I stick with that unless the recipe specifically calls for WPI 8000. I won't be buying it again though, just going to stick with VWG.

Sorry you had a recipe disaster, that is the absolute worst, especially with our designer ingredients.
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:22 PM   #74
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The wpi8000 has a funny smell and taste. can i use vwg in it's place?
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:42 AM   #75
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I also used WPI 8000 instead of VWG. It was a crumbly mess that I couldn't even get out of the bread maker! I was so looking forward to making an egg sandwich for breakfast
I agree, I tried to use some of the tweaks some have suggested. It was a waste of my time and pricey ingredients. Diedra, who is the maker of this bread recipe already tried several attempts of making this bread before she got this perfected version. Don't mess with something that doesn't need messin with, lol.

Yes cold ingredients will ruin it, need to all be room temp before you even get started.
Debbie.....
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:43 AM   #76
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The wpi8000 has a funny smell and taste. can i use vwg in it's place?
yes, vwg is what is in the original recipe on page 1
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Old 05-24-2017, 07:54 AM   #77
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I agree, I tried to use some of the tweaks some have suggested. It was a waste of my time and pricey ingredients. Diedra, who is the maker of this bread recipe already tried several attempts of making this bread before she got this perfected version. Don't mess with something that doesn't need messin with, lol.

Yes cold ingredients will ruin it, need to all be room temp before you even get started.
Debbie.....
I am having my egg sandwich for breakfast now. Yaaay!! - I made another loaf yesterday and went back to the VWG and its perfection.

I sub WPI 8000 for the VWG in Jen Eloff's bake mix and works very well there. Didn't work for me here in this bread recipe so I am going to stick with the original. Gonna make a honey wheat loaf today. Stocked up on sugar free honey when I saw them at Walmart a few weeks ago. They had not been in stock in a long time.
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Old 05-27-2017, 06:30 PM   #78
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I just made this bread again. I bought fresh, golden flax seeds and ground them myself, very fine. I substituted 1/2 cup Wheat Protein Isolate 8000 and 3/4 cup Wheat Protein isolate 500 for the wheat gluten, since my vital wheat gluten smelled a bit off. The bread was simply spectacular! I know someone up thread subbed the WPI 8000 for the whole amount of vital wheat gluten and wasn't happy with the results. The WPI 8000 and 5000 are really different animals, though, and this combo worked wonderfully well for me. I do understand that there has been some reformulation of the WPI's since I bought these 7 or 8 years ago. Does anyone have any info about that?
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Old 05-28-2017, 06:13 AM   #79
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I would love to see a picture of the finished bread
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Old 05-29-2017, 08:49 AM   #80
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I just made this bread again. I bought fresh, golden flax seeds and ground them myself, very fine. I substituted 1/2 cup Wheat Protein Isolate 8000 and 3/4 cup Wheat Protein isolate 500 for the wheat gluten, since my vital wheat gluten smelled a bit off. The bread was simply spectacular! I know someone up thread subbed the WPI 8000 for the whole amount of vital wheat gluten and wasn't happy with the results. The WPI 8000 and 5000 are really different animals, though, and this combo worked wonderfully well for me. I do understand that there has been some reformulation of the WPI's since I bought these 7 or 8 years ago. Does anyone have any info about that?
The original WPI 5000 was very light and fluffy. They changed it so that it is the same texture as the WPI 8000, which makes it more dense. I weighed the old vs the new 5000 and discovered it was twice as heavy after the reformulation. So basically cut the amounts in half to get the same weight as in Kevin's original recipes. I always weigh it because I've found that it is difficult to get the same amount each time with measuring cups because of its texture.

The difference in the 5000 and the 8000 is that the 8000 gives the bread a chewier, more "European" crust. It is a dough conditioner where the 5000 is more of a flour substitute. I usually use a 2:1 mixture of 5000:8000 by weight for bread. When I am making dinner rolls or hamburger buns, I sub more 5000 for the 8000 to make them softer.
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Old 05-30-2017, 12:25 PM   #81
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I made this recipe 4 times in the past 8 days. The flavour was amazing, very breadlike in all the 4 cases. However, the texture was very dense first 3 times. Here are some notes/tips
1) I could not find saf instant yeat anywhere in local stores, so had to use red star active dry yeast. I let the yeast bloom for 5-8 mins in 108-110F hot water.
2) My stand mixer could not knead this dough at all. It would just punch it to the sides. I tried all speeds, adding liquids gradually, and nothing worked. I first thought thats the natural behavior with this flour and went ahead with baking. But the bread turned out dense and very crumbly. For my next 3 tries, I went with hand kneading and that helped with the texture drastically, but it was still very dense.
3) I tried switching to red-star instant yeast in my 3rd try, and that had the worst rise, and most dense
4) I was baking in 9x5 loaf pan in my first 3 tries. In the 4th try, I switched to 8.5X4.3 glass loaf pan and this made huge difference. The bread is soft and chewy!!

I ordered saf instant yeast from amazon and will report out the results with that as and when I do it!!
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Old 05-30-2017, 12:28 PM   #82
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I made this recipe 4 times in the past 8 days. The flavour was amazing, very breadlike in all the 4 cases. However, the texture was very dense first 3 times. Here are some notes/tips
1) I could not find saf instant yeat anywhere in local stores, so had to use red star active dry yeast. I let the yeast bloom for 5-8 mins in 108-110F hot water.
2) My stand mixer could not knead this dough at all. It would just punch it to the sides. I tried all speeds, adding liquids gradually, and nothing worked. I first thought thats the natural behavior with this flour and went ahead with baking. But the bread turned out dense and very crumbly. For my next 3 tries, I went with hand kneading and that helped with the texture drastically, but it was still very dense.
3) I tried switching to red-star instant yeast in my 3rd try, and that had the worst rise, and most dense
4) I was baking in 9x5 loaf pan in my first 3 tries. In the 4th try, I switched to 8.5X4.3 glass loaf pan and this made huge difference. The bread is soft and chewy!!

I ordered saf instant yeast from amazon and will report out the results with that as and when I do it!!
Being a total bread making novice, I am now scare to try to make this
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Old 05-30-2017, 03:20 PM   #83
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Dont be!!! I am a complete bread making novice too, first time using the dough hook in the stand mixer!! Thats probably why it took me 4 tries to get it right. But I like learning to make new foods and this has been an amazing experience, learning to make low carb bread that tastes and feels like real bread!!
I will sum up my points again
1) get the 8.5X4.3 pyrex glass loaf pan
2) hand knead the dough if your mixer is not kneading it.
3) red star active dry yeast will do just fine if you dont have saf instant yeast. You just need to bloom the yeast first.

Thats it!! Let me know if you have any questions!!
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Old 05-30-2017, 08:48 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by vinaych_22 View Post
I made this recipe 4 times in the past 8 days. The flavour was amazing, very breadlike in all the 4 cases. However, the texture was very dense first 3 times. Here are some notes/tips
1) I could not find saf instant yeat anywhere in local stores, so had to use red star active dry yeast. I let the yeast bloom for 5-8 mins in 108-110F hot water.
2) My stand mixer could not knead this dough at all. It would just punch it to the sides. I tried all speeds, adding liquids gradually, and nothing worked. I first thought thats the natural behavior with this flour and went ahead with baking. But the bread turned out dense and very crumbly. For my next 3 tries, I went with hand kneading and that helped with the texture drastically, but it was still very dense.
3) I tried switching to red-star instant yeast in my 3rd try, and that had the worst rise, and most dense
4) I was baking in 9x5 loaf pan in my first 3 tries. In the 4th try, I switched to 8.5X4.3 glass loaf pan and this made huge difference. The bread is soft and chewy!

I ordered saf instant yeast from amazon and will report out the results with that as and when I do it!!
I had the same problem trying to knead my yeast bread in the kitchenaide. It turned out the recipe was too small to knead properly in the mixer. When I doubled the recipe, it kneaded perfectly. I have the big kitchenaide with the lift bowl and it was just too big a bowl for a one-loaf recipe.
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Old 05-30-2017, 09:30 PM   #85
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Sharon,
Did you double the recipe? I put together the dry ingredients for your pumpernickel
bread last evening, however, we went out of town today and so have not placed
it in my big kitchen Aid mixer yet. Will do in morning. Now I'm worried, however,
it did knead the Kevin white bread loaf with the CQ recipe. I added a little warm
water. What do you think?
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Old 05-30-2017, 10:35 PM   #86
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Interesting!! mine is a 6qt stand mixer. I should have gone with the smaller stand mixer!!
Next time I will try doubling the recipe.
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Old 05-31-2017, 09:05 AM   #87
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Sharon,
Did you double the recipe? I put together the dry ingredients for your pumpernickel
bread last evening, however, we went out of town today and so have not placed
it in my big kitchen Aid mixer yet. Will do in morning. Now I'm worried, however,
it did knead the Kevin white bread loaf with the CQ recipe. I added a little warm
water. What do you think?
Depends on how big your mixer is. Mine is a 6.5 quart and because it is a lift bowl, it has a round bottom. It might mix just fine in a flat bottomed bowl, or in a smaller mixer. I knead mine in my two old DAK/Wellbilt roundtop bread machines unless I am making a double batch. Because I usually make two different breads instead of two the same I use my bread machines. They are 30 years old and still going strong. I bought a second one on ebay a few years ago so I could do two loaves at once. (You can get them on EBAY still for about fifty dollars.)

The other advantage of the old DAK machines is that they have a single-knead cycle. I sometimes bake the whole loaf in the bread machine, but since the DAK makes a round loaf, which I'm not crazy about, I usually knead it in the machine for 10 minutes, then raise and bake it in a regular bread pan in the oven.

My arthritis makes it hard to hand knead bread.
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Old 06-02-2017, 12:00 PM   #88
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The original WPI 5000 was very light and fluffy. They changed it so that it is the same texture as the WPI 8000, which makes it more dense. I weighed the old vs the new 5000 and discovered it was twice as heavy after the reformulation. So basically cut the amounts in half to get the same weight as in Kevin's original recipes. I always weigh it because I've found that it is difficult to get the same amount each time with measuring cups because of its texture.

The difference in the 5000 and the 8000 is that the 8000 gives the bread a chewier, more "European" crust. It is a dough conditioner where the 5000 is more of a flour substitute. I usually use a 2:1 mixture of 5000:8000 by weight for bread. When I am making dinner rolls or hamburger buns, I sub more 5000 for the 8000 to make them softer.
Thanks for this info! I remembered seeing this awhile back and the differences between the 5000 and 8000 in their functionality, but could never remember what they were--I need to write it down and store it in a file somewhere! I also use a 2:1 mixture of 5000 to 8000, but I'm going to try a 3:1 mixture next time to see if the bread will be even softer, or if I can make some burger buns with it. I actually like this bread better than the one I used to make with Kevenpa's "simple white bread" mix, which I thought was amazing at the time. No carbalose makes a big difference in the flavor to me.

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Old 06-11-2017, 09:11 AM   #89
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.
2) My stand mixer could not knead this dough at all. It would just punch it to the sides. I tried all speeds, adding liquids gradually, and nothing worked.
That is exactly what my mixer does too, but don't give up. This dough will not come together and climb the dough hook at first, you have to mix the crap out of it, lol. Sometimes it will seem like it is wet pancake batter and will never climb, but give it time sometimes 8-10 minutes. What I do is if after 6 minutes it is still not climbing the dough hook, I add 1 Tbsp at a time of either the 5000 or oat fiber. Let that go around a bit if after 30 seconds not climbing add more if needed. I am finding that if I let it rise too long it will deflate. Nothing worse then this beautiful huge loaf that turns into a flat shoe after taking out of oven.

Exact Measuring and using the back of a knife to level off is also a good idea for exact mix.
Debbie....
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Old 06-11-2017, 08:06 PM   #90
sbwertz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dianafoot View Post
Thanks for this info! I remembered seeing this awhile back and the differences between the 5000 and 8000 in their functionality, but could never remember what they were--I need to write it down and store it in a file somewhere! I also use a 2:1 mixture of 5000 to 8000, but I'm going to try a 3:1 mixture next time to see if the bread will be even softer, or if I can make some burger buns with it. I actually like this bread better than the one I used to make with Kevenpa's "simple white bread" mix, which I thought was amazing at the time. No carbalose makes a big difference in the flavor to me.
For burger buns and dinner rolls I omit the 8000 completely and add in the same amount of 5000 to replace it. Makes them soft and easier to bite into.
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