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Old 12-16-2017, 08:33 PM   #1
PhillyDude
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Ketosis Question

I am interested in if anyone can point me to a resource (preferably scientific) that shows what the maximum amount of carbs it would take to enter ketosis and what would be the maximum amount of carbs to sustain ketosis. I realize everyone's body is different physiologically, but in general, what would those numbers be?

Thank you kindly!
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Old 12-17-2017, 05:07 AM   #2
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truly, it is different from one individual to another.

Dr. Atkins in his last book (DANDR) started us off on 20 net grams (meaning after we subtracted the fiber). some people were so metabolically challenged, that they needed to get "jumpstarted" by following a 4 day "fat fast". it would be advisable to find a copy of that book, and read it. that would answer a lot of questions. but, to sum it up, there is no specific # of carb grams for all. Love & Profits: FLATFERENGHI
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Old 12-17-2017, 06:49 AM   #3
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Dr. Phinney and Volek wrote a great book on the subject of ketosis and like you pointed out, most everyone will have varying degrees of carb tolerance. Their general guidlines are under 50g of total carbs and many people it will be 20 or less total grams of carbs. It is also true to many people have to moderate their protein intake as well.

As Flat astutely points out, there is no specific # for everyone although most people can and will acheive ketosis with 20 total grams per day and that is without protein moderation.
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Old 12-17-2017, 08:43 AM   #4
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Let me rephrase the question...
Can a person enter ketosis at 75 grams of daily carbs?
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Old 12-17-2017, 08:46 AM   #5
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It depends completely on your individual body ability to process/metabolize carbs, that's why there's not a definitive answer. (sorry).
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Old 12-17-2017, 10:14 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by PhillyDude View Post
Let me rephrase the question...
Can a person enter ketosis at 75 grams of daily carbs?
Ideally, if you want to GET INTO ketosis, go as LOW as you can, even consider fasting for 24-48 hours or so (barring any mitigating medical conditions). I say 48 hours because, honestly, I've always found day one of a fast hard, the following days much, much easier.

From my personal experience/references, there's a couple of schools of thought on entering the ketogenic state. One thought is that there is an absolute limit, period, you can't eat above THIS amount of net carbs.

The other school is purely about percentages. Doesn't matter how MUCH you eat, if a MINIMUM of 65% of your calories are coming from fat, a maximum of 20% from protein and the remaining 15% (or less) coming from carbs, you'll eventually enter ketosis.

You enter ketosis when your liver runs out of glycogen stores and you stop replenishing them sufficiently.

That being said, everybody is different. For example, my husband can consume a dramatically larger amount of carbs than I can and remain in light ketosis. We are quite close in height and weight so it's not about body size, he's actually older than me, and we're both on thyroid medication (monitored and prescribed by the same doctor). If we have the same activity levels you'd think we could eat the same amount of carbs but nope.

There are a couple of keto calculators out there that would help you, literally Google keto calculators.
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Old 12-17-2017, 11:04 AM   #7
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Is there such a thing as light ketosis? I've read from several sources that you're either in or out.
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Old 12-17-2017, 11:34 AM   #8
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Is there such a thing as light ketosis? I've read from several sources that you're either in or out.
I see the term deep ketosis all the time, if you've got deep, you've got light, right? He's maintaining, no longer losing, and his carbs are probably higher than 50 g. a day, on average. I didn't spend on a keto meter.

I guess technically he eats more HF/LC, since I think anything under 100 g carbs is considered low carb.

The thing is my husband has a form of sleep apnea that responds to being in ketosis (there are two types of sleep apnea, central and obstructive. Obstructive is more common, or at least commonly diagnosed). I know he's burning ketones as long as he doesn't have sleep apnea. When his sleep apnea comes back I mention it and he'll eat a little more carefully and he goes right back to normal.
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Old 12-17-2017, 01:09 PM   #9
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Thanks everyone! Appreciate your advice!
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Old 12-17-2017, 01:14 PM   #10
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The reason I asked is that I am considering a diet plan other than Atkins where you consume approximately 70-75 grams of carbs and no more than 1100 calories per day. They call it "Medium Low Carb". they claim you enter ketosis after 3-4 days (on average). Having done Low Carb in the past I was always under the impression that if you ate more than 30 grams of carbs per day you would not enter ketosis. This is why i asked, I am a bit confused.

Anyway, I did the diet plan for 2 weeks and lost 13 pounds, so something is causing the weight loss whether that is ketosis from low carb or weight loss from low cal is beyond me?
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Old 12-17-2017, 01:25 PM   #11
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Those are very low calories for a man your size, and with a significant caloric deficit, you can enter ketosis with higher carbs--which seems to be what's happening for you.

Personally, I would find it difficulty to eat at such a deficit unless I remained very low carb, but that's because I'm extremely sensitive to carbs. So that plan would not work for me, but it seems to work for you.

We're all different physiologically, so there's really no single WOE that works for everyone.
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Old 12-17-2017, 01:30 PM   #12
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Hi PhillyDude,

First off, I'm a software developer...not a dietician, so take what I'm about to say with the appropriate amount of salt.

Anyway, according to your profile (the weight you have listed there), you are probably burning a lot more than 1100 calories a day without any exertion. So, if I had to guess, the target carb is probably more about controlling sugar crashes (which lead to binge eating and severe cravings) than outright ketogenic intentions. If you burn 1750 more calories than you eat, you will lose about 1 pound every two days (@ roughly 3500 calories per pound)

While I don't count calories (nor carbs, just restrict which foods I eat), I suspect part of my weight loss is from the reduced overall calories that I do consume due to the higher fat content which satisfies me more easily. That said, I suspect (with only a literal...gut feeling) that I don't actually utilize as much of the fat that I consume as I did from the carbs. So, if that is correct, you can eat somewhat more calories in a HFLC diet than you can on a traditional US recommended carb rich, low fat diet.
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Old 12-17-2017, 01:31 PM   #13
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So what happens when you start eating a sustainable level of calories?
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Old 12-17-2017, 03:50 PM   #14
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Hi PhillyDude,

First off, I'm a software developer...not a dietician, so take what I'm about to say with the appropriate amount of salt...
I am a software developer also, mainly web applications, but I have done some mobile and window apps
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Old 12-17-2017, 03:55 PM   #15
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So what happens when you start eating a sustainable level of calories?
Yeah, I personally don't buy into the whole "calories in / calories out" mantra.

To me, 1000 calories a day is a starvation diet and most people (most not all) will lose on that amount. Plus it is also low fat, which I'm rabidly against, but I have some friends that were successful on it and they introduced me to it. I'm concerned my metabolism will be wrecked in the long run if I stick to it.
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Old 12-17-2017, 03:57 PM   #16
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It depends completely on your individual body ability to process/metabolize carbs, that's why there's not a definitive answer. (sorry).
No problem, thanks for taking the time to share :-)
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Old 12-18-2017, 06:28 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by PhillyDude View Post
Yeah, I personally don't buy into the whole "calories in / calories out" mantra.

To me, 1000 calories a day is a starvation diet and most people (most not all) will lose on that amount. Plus it is also low fat, which I'm rabidly against, but I have some friends that were successful on it and they introduced me to it. I'm concerned my metabolism will be wrecked in the long run if I stick to it.
Yeah, it's crap.

Well, let me rephrase that ... some people simply CANNOT tolerate carbs and I also know people who thrive on them (my son). And then there's people who just can't take them, even a few slices of bread or a good serving of rice every day, no matter how many calories they're consuming or how much they exercise, the scale won't budge and, in some cases, their fasting blood glucose starts creeping up.

My husband was a good example of that. I bring him up because right now you weigh almost exactly what he did before he started on the ketogenic diet in January 2015. I gave up on counting his calories and just worried about his macros, he was consuming around 2000 calories a day and dropped what worked out to be an average of 1.25 lbs, a week.

He was never hungry, in fact, he got to the point where all he needed was a hearty breakfast and a nice fat (literally) dinner and he was good. Basically eating once every 12 hours. Some days he even skipped dinner altogether. He has gone, easily, a full day without eating several times and barely notices it.

His weight dropped to 185 and he's hung there but we've loosened up his carbs a bit. His cholesterol is, literally, better than perfect (total cholesterol went from 200 to 173, trigs 96 to 39, HDL from 47 to 56 and LDL 134 to 106). The only thing we can't quite dial down is his blood pressure, it's still a pinch higher than I (and his doctors) would like (130/78, I'd prefer to see 120/70). He lost more than 4" off his waist, down from a very tight 38 to a very comfortable 34.

And bear in mind, my husband is almost 64 and considers exercise the only dirty word in his vocabulary, although he does have a job where he's on his feet all the time.

The big change required giving up baked goods, cereals, ice cream, milk and adding in more butter, more cream, more cheese and a LOT more eggs.

I mean, as long as you're seeing success with your current diet, excellent but if you get to the point where you're hungry (and 1100 calories a day is less than a tiny woman is recommended to eat) come on over to the ketogenic/HFLC board.

But congrats on the success you've seen so far, that is HIGHLY motivating!!!
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