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Old 03-27-2014, 06:20 AM   #31
KeirasMom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSure View Post
I understand if people don't want to read the blog I mention because it's just not the right time to look at someone's discussion of their (now) >10yr experience of weight maintenance. However, it would be helpful if responders would clarify if they've read any posts other than the extracts I selected.

A recurrent finding is that 3% of weight-reduced people maintain that for >5yrs, and there is some weight creep within that. 90% of that 3% include regular exercise as part of that maintenance. Debra exercises. Our own Kissa/Cindy is now approx a 10yr maintainer adding together her Atkins maintenance that ran into her decision to shed more weight and maintain it with JUDDD.

A number of other people here (including me) are in the relative early days of maintenance (and that's not to be sneezed at). I'm genuinely intrigued by the number who neither exercise nor have a particularly active lifestyle. We appear to have an early days cluster of the 10% of the successful 3% weight maintainers (bear in mind that many of us will not meet the National Weight Control Registry criteria for successful maintenance until we reach 5yrs). Only time and reporting back will reveal if our tweaks of JUDDD confer some form of advantage over the more common methods.

LG, LCG, and other self-styled turtles who've chosen to read this topic. I wonder if you acknowledge fully to yourselves that you already count in the 20% of successful weight loss maintainers by some current definitions that are in play? 20 percent of maintainers are successful, if you define success as maintaining a 10 percent loss for one year - now, some of you are holding at considerably more than 10%, even if you are currently cross-country skiing with your weight management rather than downhill racing (to adapt one of Debra's metaphors).
I have not read Debra's blog yet. I am a sporadic exerciser. When I find something I like, I do it regularly until something happens where I can't (won't) anymore. I did Zumba faithfully a couple of times per week until my favorite instructor left. I tried the other classes and don't like them. Keira and I used to roller skate at the rink very often, but my vertigo got the best of me and I took a couple of bad falls (skating and just walking!) and now I'm afraid to be on skates. I've tried hula hooping and yoga. I like the hula hooping well enough, but every time I get into a pattern, I strain something in my back and have to rest for a few days. It's hard for me to get back to it. I have degenerative disc disease, arthritis, a fused lower spine, and (thanks SS for pointing me to the hypermobility information) also qualify as having hypermobility syndrome. All this sounds like a big excuse, and it is, to a point. I know I could do more exercise. I know I need to in order to strengthen my core and alleviate some of the worst of my symptoms. I want to try heavy lifting, but I worry about dislocating my shoulders or throwing out my back, so I'm hesitant to start.

All that said, I'm fairly active. I'm on my feet a lot more at work now that my position has changed. I use my exercise ball as a chair for a couple of hours per day. We go to amusement parks fairly regularly. With Keira in softball now, I'm lugging gear and chairs and what-not in and out of school grounds for practices and games. I have 3 dogs who take up a fair amount of time with playing, though not as much as they want I'm sure.

I have been maintaining now for about 14 months, at between 40-50% loss of my starting body weight. The first year was easy(ish). It's only been the last couple of months that I've started getting fed up. Caveat: I have borderline OCD and the way I control it is to stop doing whatever OCD behavior I'm doing that's interfering with my normal life. This is how I've always controlled myself and kept from going completely into obsessive/compulsive land. I think I'm starting to feel a bit overwhelmed in a compulsive way with tracking everything, and my natural inclination is to just STOP so I don't let it rule my life. I can't do that with maintenance because I'll get fat again. I think that may very well be why I'm feeling sort of trapped and resentful. Most of these issues, hopefully, are solely my own, and I know that. It's all in my head, and that's really a scary place to be sometimes.
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Old 03-27-2014, 08:13 AM   #32
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Since I am still in WL mode anything I say is going to be lame.
Dawn, I just want to say that (to me) you are a particularly beautiful and strong woman. I admire you and take so much inspiration from you.
I hope all this gets sorted quickly for you so that you can enjoy being so slim and beautiful.
Blessings,
P
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Old 03-27-2014, 08:21 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patkid View Post
Dawn, I just want to say that (to me) you are a particularly beautiful and strong woman. I admire you and take so much inspiration from you.
So true, and applicable to many ladies on our forum. We are blessed to have so many good examples to follow.
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Old 03-27-2014, 08:59 AM   #34
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Dawn- I'm prone to OCD and my mother has a horrendous battle with it- so I totally get the OCD thing- believe me. What if, for 2 weeks you didn't count on UDs. Do you think you would really go off the rails?

I haven't counted UDs since my very first month. For one thing- I basically know the calorie counts of everything I eat on a regular basis, so in my head I have a general idea of what I have consumed. It's just nice not to have to track everything.

So, for me not counting doesn't equal pancakes for breakfast, pizza for lunch, a big dinner followed by ice cream.

No counting UD are more like- no breakfast, but lots of coffee, if I have lunch it's either a yogurt or a home made salad that wasn't weighted out. And then dinner could be whatever I'm in the mood for. I don't have a really exciting dinner during the week, because I don't really eat out much during the week and don't like to cook huge meals after working all day. But I eat enough at dinner to feel totally satisfied.

Maybe give no counting UDs a try for 10 days and see how you feel and how your weight is.
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Old 03-27-2014, 09:10 AM   #35
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Thank you Pat, for your kind words.

Carly, right now I'm trying to eat at TDEE for a few weeks, every day, within a 10 hour window with no DDs, . I'm trying to see what "normal" looks like because whenever I try the no-counting thing, I do go off the rails. If I'm not counting, I'm eating tons of junk, which is funny because it's not how I normally eat. I'm not a binger and never have been, but I can sure eat a lot of calories if I'm not careful.
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Old 03-27-2014, 09:22 AM   #36
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Slowsure, maintenance is hard... it's not just a matter of willpower or motivation it's fighting the "starvation response" i.e lower levels of leptin and higher levels of ghrelin. The body wants the fat back and increases hunger and food obsession! I have found the only way I can maintain is by IF, exercise and periods of very LC practically ketogenic which allows AS. The moment I allow certain carbs in it causes trouble via cravings and hunger. There are some forms of food I can NEVER eat again unless I want to regain. It's sad but true for me.
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:02 AM   #37
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I think it's possible that we categorise exercise and intensity differently comparing USA and UK guidelines. I describe myself as having a low-intensity, active lifestyle and use 'light exercise' for TDEE calculators because UK guidelines refer to sustained increase in heart rate, breathlessness, perceived exertion and perspiration. I opt for 'low exercise' in the calculators because I'm aware of how much of the time that I spend kayaking, weight training, walking etc. does not actually involve a substantial increase in my heart rate or sustained exertion/perspiration.

However, the NWCR is US based and they probably use different descriptors and categories to the ones with which I'm familiar - and I'm over-interpreting the report that their maintainers typically spend 60-90mins a day in high-intensity exercise/activities.
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:11 AM   #38
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I have given up trying to figure out my level of intensity for activity. The last time I 'did it by the numbers', I just annoyed myself. I think I must have a slow heartbeat/super-heart/something, because trying to get my heartrate up to the percentage that the numbers indicate was a moderate workout, left me panting, swinging my arms like a maniac, and almost running. I felt like I must be a wimp, if THAT was moderate. So I decided not to worry about it any more! Nothing like being an ostrich.
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Old 03-27-2014, 01:21 PM   #39
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I can't do high intensity these days unless it's short intervals when cycling and I personally love long cycles and hikes, got to find something one enjoys. I threw in my gym membership, I hated walking on a treadmill like a hamster going nowhere in a stuffy smelly gym. I religiously do 15 mins exercise after my evening meal, either weights or on my spin bike not to burn calories but I am very carb-sensitive and believe my weight issues are insulin related (both parents type 2 diabetics and heavy carb eaters ie "would you like some meat with your potatoes".)

Opinion is that exercise augments and increases sympathetic nervous system tone and catecholamines, so energy is used and fat tissue is resistant to insulin and insulin levels lower. Ron Rosedale suggested this years ago in his book, just 10 or 15 mins after meals.

.
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:41 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojocat View Post
Slowsure, maintenance is hard... it's not just a matter of willpower or motivation it's fighting the "starvation response" i.e lower levels of leptin and higher levels of ghrelin. The body wants the fat back and increases hunger and food obsession! I have found the only way I can maintain is by IF, exercise and periods of very LC practically ketogenic which allows AS. The moment I allow certain carbs in it causes trouble via cravings and hunger. There are some forms of food I can NEVER eat again unless I want to regain. It's sad but true for me.
That is so sad. I'm guessing if I had never overate to the point of obesity, my body wouldn't try to get back to that point? It's like once you're broken, you're never "normal" again.
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:43 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSure View Post
LG, LCG, and other self-styled turtles who've chosen to read this topic. I wonder if you acknowledge fully to yourselves that you already count in the 20% of successful weight loss maintainers by some current definitions that are in play? 20 percent of maintainers are successful, if you define success as maintaining a 10 percent loss for one year - now, some of you are holding at considerably more than 10%, even if you are currently cross-country skiing with your weight management rather than downhill racing (to adapt one of Debra's metaphors).
Thank you for this, Slow. I do have to constantly remind myself of the accomplishment I have made, and that I'm not giving up. I WILL find a way to get these last pounds off, even if it takes a lot longer than I thought. I haven't read the blog, but want to when I have a bit more time.

Quote:
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Hmmm. I'm not sure how I feel about this topic, really. I'm still very new to maintenance, though...but maintenance is what terrified me most as I've never been able to do it before. So far (hmmm, 8 months in or so), it's pretty awesome! I find it flexible enough that sometimes I do what I did during WLM exactly, and other times (like today), I eat a bit more on a DD. I'm still doing EOD rotations, though, and have been the entire time. I don't count calories on UDs now, and know I eat WAY over what I'm probably supposed to. I weigh faithfully every day and adjust my calories/eating accordingly. Is it alot of work? I suppose I could choose to look at it this way, but I don't. It was more work losing all the regained weight 3 times than taking the few minutes every day (after getting on the scale) deciding what I need to do to stay where I'm at. I find myself wanting to do more right now...maybe I'll do some walking when the weather warms up, try some new activities, etc. BECAUSE I WANT TO, not because I feel like I have to in order to lose weight.

I don't know, I guess it is what I choose to make of it. Was weight loss hard? I suppose it was, but I chose to think it wasn't that bad and with the exception of a few moody episodes (you can find them on this forum!), it was pretty joyful. No different so far this far in to maintenance for me. I am just happy to have found something that works and will continue to do so, as long as I choose to keep following it. THAT is powerful for me. ♥
LOVE LOVE LOVE this, GF!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirtain View Post
This is why I am hopeful that maintenance with JUDDD will be easier than I imagined. My relationship with food has totally changed.

I think about it MUCH less than I used to.

I worry about it MUCH MUCH MUCH less than I used to.

It is a revelation to me how much food/weight issues filled my life before. First with switching to low-carb, and now with JUDDD, food/weight have assumed what I think may be a normal part of my attention. I love it!
This too!!!

Quote:
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Since I am still in WL mode anything I say is going to be lame.
Dawn, I just want to say that (to me) you are a particularly beautiful and strong woman. I admire you and take so much inspiration from you.
I hope all this gets sorted quickly for you so that you can enjoy being so slim and beautiful.
Blessings,
P
Nothing that every comes out of your mouth (keyboard) is ever lame, my friend!
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:56 PM   #42
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Carol,
Thank you so much for your kindness. It warms me.
I am just so sure that this break is just what you need and that no matter which steps you take moving forward will be perfect.
We are all with you!
blessings,
P
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Old 03-27-2014, 04:21 PM   #43
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Well, I did spend some time reading Debra's blog. While not blogging, she has been active in comments as recently as late 2013, maybe more recently. I think her observations of the physical are invaluable (the "coasting" part of early maintenance, for example), and I think she is definitely telling the/her truth. However, the vibe I get from her writing is that her dissatisfaction is largely of her own making.

I do not question how hard she thinks maintenance is. I believe it! But I also see from her rhetoric that she lives in the interior world she created--as I firmly believe we all do. Not woo-woo create like The Secret (no diss intended, whatever makes you happy; I just can't do it that way), but really living authentically and comfortably inside the choices we make about how to respond to and think about our lives and ourselves.

What a different and more appealing inner world the maintainers on this board seem to live in! It is a cautionary tale for me to think even more deeply about maintenance, keep my heart open to what I'm changing about myself, and how I can make it a permanent part of me. Whew!

Thank you, Slow, for bringing this topic up. At first, I wondered if I wanted to read it, but now I am so glad to be discussing it.
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Old 03-27-2014, 07:30 PM   #44
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After reading all these wonderful posts I can see that I really would have benefited from being on this board when I was starting maintenance! There are so many ways to skin this cat.

And I also realized that I sounded a bit dour in my earlier post about how I maintain and I don't think it's an accurate reflection of how I really feel about it. Honestly, I think it's a challenge but it's absolutely doable. It's just that you have to pay attention to some degree to what's going on in your head and in your body. I may be a littler obsessive about tracking my weight etc., but I'm sure that others don't have to do that. Many a diet book says that if you weigh yourself once a week it's more than adequate to stop any unintended weight gain. And those of you who are successful with JUDDD have the wonderful assurance that you can go back to EOD and get yourself back on track without a whole lot of drama about it, which is just great.

I firmly believe that everyone can maintain if they understand that they can't go back to their old ways, which everyone here knows very well. Then, it's a matter of figuring out what works for you. I think that takes some time and experience. But there's no doubt in my mind that it's doable for every single person.


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Old 03-28-2014, 04:32 AM   #45
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I hesitate to comment (since my knowledge of her situation is not complete), but it's not stopping me. I still have to read the blog, although I don't want to be too overwhelmed...but does Debra fast? If not, it sounds like she could benefit from IF and be a lot calmer about maintenance.
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Old 03-28-2014, 05:47 AM   #46
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does Debra fast? If not, it sounds like she could benefit from IF and be a lot calmer about maintenance.
No, her WOE is pretty much in line with that recommended by Dr Berkeley. Given that's she's more than 10 years into successful maintenance I don't know if it would be appropriate for her to experiment with such a potentially disruptive tweak - particularly as her present maintenance is working so well for her. More on the issue of "calm" below.

Quote:
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I think she is definitely telling the/her truth. However, the vibe I get from her writing is that her dissatisfaction is largely of her own making.

I do not question how hard she thinks maintenance is. I believe it! But I also see from her rhetoric that she lives in the interior world she created--as I firmly believe we all do...

What a different and more appealing inner world the maintainers on this board seem to live in!
It's a technical difference but, aside from Kissa/Cindy, none of us, afaik, counts as a maintainer in NWCR terms - not even Leo41, as yet (not until 5yrs). Debra, like Kissa/Cindy, has been maintaining for more than 10yrs. Debra's practices are very much in line with those reported by Anne M. Fletcher in her book, Thin for Life and some of which is discussed elsewhere.

So, I'm very wary of thinking that I know much about the experience of living as a maintainer, relative to someone like Debra or her commenters (not all of whom agree with her). Strictly speaking, as I still seem to be losing (however slowly) and as I haven't decided on a final body fat goal (so much depends on what I learn about sarcopenia and how to handle it), I probably don't count as a maintainer at all (except in the sense of having sustained more than a 10% loss for >1yr which probably happened sometime in this month or early April).

I'm not entirely sure, but I think that Debra has a religious vocation and is currently training as a deacon or similar. I think her thoughts about Stoicism and the cultivation of joy in the activities one chooses are interesting - this may be because I'm British

I am very aware that maintenance strategies have to be robust or even anti-fragile*. As Debra says, whatever you choose has to be something that will get you through bereavement, unexpected surgeries, chronic illnesses, family crises etc.

My personal experience of relatively recent accidents is that when the consequences are extensive, you end up losing control of what you eat (both quality and quantity) and your activity levels. If that were to happen again, I'd have to have in place an advance directive with my DH about how I should be fed Altho' I genuinely doubt that most hospitals would be happy to tolerate that as many of them now forbid the bringing-in of food to patients.

Whatever we do in maintenance has to work at that time and also be flexible enough to embrace radical change in the future.

*As a tangent to Debra's discussion of maintenance in the context of Stoicism, I find the notion anti-fragility to be interesting. Nassim Taleb's book explores the concept: Antifragile: Things That Gain from Disorder.

Although 'robustness' seems like the logical antithesis of 'fragile', Taleb discusses why this may be mistaken. 'Robust' is commonly used in a way that implies resistance to change (that isn't my usage of 'robust' but I accept that it's common and it's a useful way to frame his discussion).

Taleb argues that antifragile is the antithesis of fragile. A porcelain plate is easily broken when placed under stress, such as being dropped onto a hard floor. My grandfather's criterion for a useful plate was that it should bounce when dropped - it was resistant to breakage and therefore robust. Where this plate metaphor breaks down for me is that Taleb argues that an antifragile object would benefit from experiencing stress. One reviewer says:
Quote:
Taleb conjures up an image of the fragile as an object we would ship in a box marked “Handle with Care”; by contrast, a box holding the antifragile would be labelled “Please Mishandle”
If this seems bizarre, consider how anti fragile we are as a species. We know that our bones and muscles are healthier and stronger when we overcome the restrictions of our sedentary lives and subject them to the stress of walking and lifting things: both bones and muscles weaken if they are underused.
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Old 03-28-2014, 06:05 AM   #47
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One of the things I learned from my LC maintenance is that there is never a time when you can consider the job done. Getting past the magic five year mark, or some other point, doesn’t mean you can stop paying attention.
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Old 03-28-2014, 06:19 AM   #48
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I also don't know what maintenance plan would be fool-proof for life's unexpected turns. The only thing I know for sure is that IF will get me back to where I want to be, if/when things go in a direction I don't like.
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Old 03-28-2014, 06:25 AM   #49
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I also don't know what maintenance plan would be fool-proof for life's unexpected turns. The only thing I know for sure is that IF will get me back to where I want to be, if/when things go in a direction I don't like.
It did that for me . And, honestly, it was almost a deliberate choice to allow myself to regain weight during the menopause, because I felt even worse any time I ate in a way that led to weight loss. I decided my body needed the extra food more than it needed to be thin. It might have been possible to come up with a diet that provided sufficiently concentrated nutrition that I could have kept my weight down, but I didn’t have the energy for research, or for meticulous shopping and cooking.
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Old 03-28-2014, 06:35 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Ailuros View Post
It might have been possible to come up with a diet that provided sufficiently concentrated nutrition that I could have kept my weight down, but I didn’t have the energy for research, or for meticulous shopping and cooking.
I think it's fascinating that even when we know this is happening, most of us wouldn't think, "I know, I'll outsource that to one of the personalised chef services". I know this sounds like something for plutocrats, but it depends on the service - some of them would be substantially cheaper than existing on take-aways or ready-meals (and I know that you didn't do this but others in your position might have done).

It's probably a good value for money proposition if you were to take into account the heartache, unhappiness or even sub-optimal health that results from the menopausal transition (for some women).

I've just decided that we ought to write a freezer service cookbook to guide people who want to develop this idea, Ailuros
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Old 03-28-2014, 06:43 AM   #51
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It would be very useful, though we don’t have a freezer, so it wouldn’t have helped me very much.
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Old 03-28-2014, 08:17 AM   #52
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No freezer????????
I don't understand?????

(We have no dishwasher- so I know that sounds alien to many.)
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Old 03-28-2014, 08:24 AM   #53
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I used to have a freezer, but never remembered to eat anything out of it. When we moved house, the freezer died and we never bothered to replace it. We live very close to lots of shops, so it’s not a big inconvenience to pop out for one or two things.
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Old 03-28-2014, 08:36 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ailuros View Post
I used to have a freezer, but never remembered to eat anything out of it. When we moved house, the freezer died and we never bothered to replace it. We live very close to lots of shops, so it’s not a big inconvenience to pop out for one or two things.
I'm in walking distance to 2 huge grocery stores, but just the fact that there would be no way to keep ice cubes for beverages blows my mind.
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Old 03-28-2014, 09:43 AM   #55
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I thought a freezer service was like, say, Schwann's, where the delivery person drops the food off to a freezer in your carport or some other accessible place(?).

That would be an awesome idea, IMO, for specialized diets. We have one here (not sure if it's freezer or not) for raw food. Very popular.
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Old 03-28-2014, 01:27 PM   #56
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It depends where you live in the UK. Round about London, there are personal chef services who will cook and deliver food on a daily basis, and they can design various menus around specific WOE and kcal counts. So, they'll prep everything that can be, and they have a chiller system that they rotate. I think some of them also offer a service for a specified number of days in the week for people who don't need a 7/7 service.

The freezer services are similar - but they're better for people who tend to work erratic hours and are OK with just having a main meal service which leaves them to design/manage their other meals. The full personal fresh food service tends to include people's breakfast, lunch, dinner and snacks (by agreement to suit people's needs) whereas that's less practical for freezer services.

They're very useful in lots of circumstances but I think, for many people, it feels decadent. I've no idea why they seem to be less acceptable than take-aways or ready meals that don't suit some people at all and offer too many temptations from most WOEs.

What's interesting is that I have a subset of colleagues on secondment from South East Asia, and they don't think twice about hiring an 'Auntie' to come into their home a couple of days a week, while they're at work, and she cooks food that she chills and puts in the fridge. This way, they also get lovely fresh idlis, pickles and raitas that can't be frozen and tend to be better fresh.

All of which is a long digression that follows my meandering thoughts about why we sometimes don't just do the rational thing and outsource some important time-sinks wherever practical.
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Old 03-28-2014, 01:44 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carly View Post
(We have no dishwasher- so I know that sounds alien to many.)
I spent the last 4 years of my life without a dishwasher in the US and the UK. The DH and I recently moved into a place that only had a shower (no bath = sacrilege to me), but it had a dishwasher. So I've made a sacrifice. BUT, there is something so wonderful about just loading up the dishwasher and not having to do dishes!!
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Old 03-28-2014, 02:25 PM   #58
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I don't have a dishwasher either. It's one of my (many) excuses for not cooking much.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:32 PM   #59
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I don't have one either, but DH loves to do dishes, so it works out very well.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:42 PM   #60
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Yes, I cook and DW does the dishes. It's worked out great for the last 9 years, but still, I would love to have a dishwasher. I had one before I met DW and I moved into her place.
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