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Old 06-04-2013, 04:49 AM   #1
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Dr Steve Phinney why no high carb days and other things

I thought this was a very interesting article and answers questions like whether it is really a good idea to supposedly shake up your body after you reached keto adaptation.

Steve Phinney – Low-Carb preserves Glycogen better than High Carb | Me and My Diabetes
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Old 06-04-2013, 05:16 AM   #2
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This was a very good read. Thanks.

THe end talks about why it is not good to go off-plan on a low carb diet. It makes sense, as does the clearly-explained science in the rest of the article.

I'm gonna research the Cori Cycle mentioned in the article. I like learning stuff.
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Old 06-04-2013, 05:30 AM   #3
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Old 06-04-2013, 06:00 AM   #4
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Very interesting! Now that I am in Maintence , I eat much more fat than in weight loss. I lost weight doing low carb though did off plan meals a few times a month but find Ketosis much more important NOW! Both for appetite control and for energy . I tried upping carbs for excercise but find upping fat percentage more effective . Is what they are saying while in weight loss one should seek to keep fat low enough to force one to use their own fat stores? How do you figure that out? I never added additional fat but made sure that my foods were full fat except yogurt because I didn't like it. Or am I not getting it?
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Old 06-04-2013, 06:09 AM   #5
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Thanks so much. This is a good complement to some other interviews and talks of his. I especially like how he compares eating low carb to flying to Hawaii.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Phinney
I look at it as a commitment, in the same way that it’s a commitment if you decide to fly to Hawaii. You fly half way to Hawaii, you’re going to end up in the water which has sharks in it. If you do a low-carb diet half way, meaning mostly low-carb but then a high-carb meal on the weekends, then you’ll never get low-carb adapted the way you would if you just gave up the higher carbs for good.Go all the way there and give your body time to adapt. And once you’ve got it, treasure it.

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Old 06-04-2013, 06:12 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanilingo View Post
Very interesting! Now that I am in Maintence , I eat much more fat than in weight loss. I lost weight doing low carb though did off plan meals a few times a month but find Ketosis much more important NOW! Both for appetite control and for energy . I tried upping carbs for excercise but find upping fat percentage more effective . Is what they are saying while in weight loss one should seek to keep fat low enough to force one to use their own fat stores? How do you figure that out? I never added additional fat but made sure that my foods were full fat except yogurt because I didn't like it. Or am I not getting it?
No, he's saying that you keep your overall calories low enough for a calorie deficit, so you burn your excess fat for energy, not that you keep your fat low in particular.

While in weight loss mode, you eat very low carb, moderate protein, and enough fat to make up the difference.

When you get to maintenance, you keep carbs and protein the same, but increase the fat enough so that you're not losing weight anymore. That means that your fat percentage will go up in maintenance, but that's a different thing from saying that you keep fats low--or even moderate--in weight loss mode.
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Old 06-04-2013, 06:45 AM   #7
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And here I was "I don't need to read these new low carb advocates"! Very interesting read. Thank you for sharing. (as I wander off to see if my library has these books)
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Old 06-04-2013, 06:49 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ntombi View Post
No, he's saying that you keep your overall calories low enough for a calorie deficit, so you burn your excess fat for energy, not that you keep your fat low in particular.

While in weight loss mode, you eat very low carb, moderate protein, and enough fat to make up the difference.

When you get to maintenance, you keep carbs and protein the same, but increase the fat enough so that you're not losing weight anymore. That means that your fat percentage will go up in maintenance, but that's a different thing from saying that you keep fats low--or even moderate--in weight loss mode.
Agree. He says protein grams and fat grams should be 50/50 for maintenence, but it is tricky to come up with the right numbers for weight loss because some of the energy needed comes from stored fat.

20 carbs, for simplicity's sake we'll disregard fiber and call it 80 calories.
Protein---moderately active =1.2 g per kilo body weight, 1 g per kilo seems to be the minimum (though I acknowledge that other LC plans such as Protein Power go lower) So that's:

100 lbs =45 to 54 g protein per 100 lbs
150 lbs =67 to 81 g protein
200 lbs = 90 to 108 g protein

150 lb person. 20 carb, 80 protein. That 400 calories. To proceed for maintaining, we would add 80 fat to make it 50/50 so that's 720 cal more for a total of 1120 calories. But Phinney is saying we need less than 50/50 protein to fat ratio to lose weight. I cannot be happy, or lose weight, on 1120 calories. Need at least 1300. So how do we make the math fit the theory?
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:09 AM   #9
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Emel, I have the similar problems. I am losing very slowly on this . Yesterday I decided to make a soup as I like it and the 20 grams carbs no problem,lo cal no problem but the fat protein ratio is off, problem being that I do not like fatty meats so I eat lean meats and sub extra fat. My max of fat is 62 % as it stands which is low, it should be nearer 80 . I might try to stretch the soup to last longer and add more fat manually. I am already adding heavy cream might as well add coconut oil after cooking.
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:10 AM   #10
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Where did he say 50/50? Did I miss it? He eats significantly higher fat than 50/50.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Phinney
I stay between 25 and 50 grams of carbohydrate a day. I eat a moderate amount of protein. It’s not a high-protein diet. I eat 2800 calories a day, and so if moderate protein is 500 to 600 calories a day and carbohydrate is around 100 calories a day, I’m eating over 2,000 calories of fat to maintain my body weight. I run in the 70 – 80% of energy intake as fat.
That's not 50/50.

His protein is about 150g at the outside (600/4).
Carbs, 25g.
Fat, 233g ((2800-700)/9=233.33)



I really don't worry about percentages while I'm losing. I worry about hard carbohydrate numbers, I am conscious not to overdo protein, and I get the rest of my calories from fat.

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Old 06-04-2013, 07:15 AM   #11
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Yes, Aleina, getting the fat in can be troubling. I use olive oil on my salads and veggies, and I eat fat bombs for the coconut oil.

But what I'm saying is that the math doesn't work.

If we follow Atkins rule of 20 carbs and Phinney's rule for balance of macronutrients, that's:
max of 20 carbs- 80 cal
max of 80 protein- 320 cal
less than 80 fat - 720 cal
for a total of less than 1120 cal.

we'd eat 720 cal for maintaining but would rely on body fat reserves if trying to lose weight. Let's say we do 50% from food and 50% from fat stores. So that means
80 cal from carb, 320 cal from protein, and 360 cal from fat, for a totalof 760 cal per day, which I'm not gonna do. So like I said, there's no way to get the recommendations and the math to add up.
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:19 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ntombi View Post
Where did he say 50/50? Did I miss it? He eats significantly higher fat than 50/50.



That's not 50/50.

His protein is about 150g at the outside (600/4).
Carbs, 25g.
Fat, 233g ((2800-700)/9=233.33)



I really don't worry about percentages while I'm losing. I worry about hard carbohydrate numbers, I am conscious not to overdo protein, and I get the rest of my calories from fat.
First, it's 50/50 in terms of grams, not in terms of calories. So 80 g protein is 320 cal while 80 g fat is 720 cal.

His numbers are for an athlete--- he bikes 60 miles 3x a week. so he needs extra fat for endurance.

I don't exercise, and unlike Phinney, I'm trying to lose weight. I'll go back and reread, but I could swear I saw him recommend 50/50 to maintain without much exercise.

ETA I'm probably getting myself into a spin, which is what happens when I pound out the numbers. I'll probably reread it and then just carry on as I'm doing, which is 80 pro, 20 carb, 100 fat or thereabouts.

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Old 06-04-2013, 07:25 AM   #13
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HEre, from the link above.

Quote:
Well, how about if, instead of eating just the leanest part of the meat, what if they eat a 14 ounce rib-eye steak. Or chicken with the skin. Will they avoid a rabbit fever problem, or is that still too much protein?

A lightly marbled steak, in terms of energy, is about 50-50 protein and fat. A heavily marbled steak is 75 percent of calories from fat and 25 percent from protein. Chicken, with the skin, dark meat’s going to be 50-50 protein and fat, but the white meat is going to be more protein, even with the skin on. So as an energy source, it’s too much protein . . . UNLESS the person is trying to lose weight, and getting fat from their body’s own fat stores. In other words, being on a higher fat diet because they’re getting fat from their body’s stores.

After all, many people, choose a low carb diet for weight loss. For them, a diet that’s moderate in protein may be high in fat because they’re burning their own fat for energy. When you go on a weight loss, ketogentic diet, you can eat less fat on your plate because you’re burning the fat that comes from your inside. It comes from your love handles and hips and so on.

When burning your own body fat, it looks like it’s a high protein diet. But the scales go down because the body’s burning it’s own fat stores. But if that persons loses weight and decides to stay on low-carb as a maintenance diet, in order to become weight stable, they need to eat a considerable amount of fat now, in other words, they need to increase their fat intake, which should work fine, because by now, their body should be very efficient at burning fat.

And.... I found my error. I was looking at what he called the minimum protein requirement. what he recommends for weight loss is 1.5 to 2 grams protein per kilo body weight. So that means 170 lb person would need 112 to 150 g protein, and that's up to 450 to 600 calories, then 80 cal from carbs, and then dietary fat for the rest.

Taking the middle ground, we get:
520 cal pro (about 130 grams)
80 cal carb (20 grams)
700-800 cal fat (about 85 g)
for a total of 1300 to 1400 calories, which is quite pleasant.

or
420 cal pro (105 g)
80 cal carb
900 cal fat (100 g)
for 1400 cal, which is also pleasant.

Last edited by emel; 06-04-2013 at 07:39 AM..
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:39 AM   #14
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Emel the math is easy let´s all bike 60 miles three times a week
On topic : Here is what he says he eats
25 and 50 grams of carbohydrate a day ( 20 for weightloss for us) . moderate amount of protein. 500 to 600 calories a day
carbohydrate is around 100 calories a day.
fat therefore must be reduced in order to get body to attack fat reserves.
High fat is only needed when not in ketosis yet ? Meaning that we misunderstand the 80% of fat as needing to come from our plates?

In other words we are still looking to consume 1600 cals to lose ( for me for example) subtract the physiologically necessary amounts of protein and carbs and consume what is left over on our plates as fat. Being in ketosis helps us to be this lo cal and also making the reduction gradual.

In other words we need to look at what is absolutely necessary in terms of physiology and supplement with fat until we are sated at whatever level that is depending on how far down the road you are. In other words the fat level is decreasing until you hit minimum level of calories for weightloss for your specific circumstances ( when you feel still sated) and then you play the waiting game,losing pounds until you reach ideal body fat level at which point you again add in more fat to reach maintenance levels according to your activity level.
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:56 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emel View Post
HEre, from the link above.




And.... I found my error. I was looking at what he called the minimum protein requirement. what he recommends for weight loss is 1.5 to 2 grams protein per kilo body weight. So that means 170 lb person would need 112 to 150 g protein, and that's up to 450 to 600 calories, then 80 cal from carbs, and then dietary fat for the rest.

Taking the middle ground, we get:
520 cal pro (about 130 grams)
80 cal carb (20 grams)
700-800 cal fat (about 85 g)
for a total of 1300 to 1400 calories, which is quite pleasant.

or
420 cal pro (105 g)
80 cal carb
900 cal fat (100 g)
for 1400 cal, which is also pleasant.
Right.
But he also doesn't give a coloric target for weight loss mode.


And I know we're talking grams. I took that into account by showing both grams and calories. (I know you corrected yourself, I just wanted to make that point. )

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Old 06-04-2013, 08:04 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ntombi View Post
Right.
But he also doesn't give a coloric target for weight loss mode.


And I know we're talking grams. I took that into account by showing both grams and calories. (I know you corrected yourself, I just wanted to make that point. )
As is your right, my dear.
Thanks for questioning me. You made me take a second look,and that's how I figured out where I went wrong.

But for the 60 mile bike ride, I believe I'll pass, Aleina.
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:19 AM   #17
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I'll ride on the handlebars.
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:54 AM   #18
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Selling that bicycle ride is not easy ...

About the calorie thing there is another article that might clear up a bit of the ratio confusion and what happens if you increase or decrease components.

Steve Phinney: A Calorie is Not Just a Calorie | Me and My Diabetes
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:23 AM   #19
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interesting. I guess this was before both of the Phinney/Volek books.
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:51 AM   #20
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Great interviews, Aleina!

I must admit that I'm *torn* about the Stephen Phinney, Jeff Volek, and Eric Westman approach to Atkins. I respect their research credentials and I absolutely believe that their approach to Atkins is based on what their research has established. But I feel like I would have *failed* if I'd tried their new version of Atkins, rather than the 2002 version of Dr Atkins New Diet Revolution that my friend/trainer recommended to me.

I've honestly never been a big fan of *greasy* foods so -- even though I would have done what I was told if I was following an Atkins plan that established necessary nutrient macros with a high fat component -- I would just have been eating that way to "lose weight" and I don't think I would have enjoyed it enough to make it into a lifestyle that I could comfortably follow indefinitely. And then counting protein grams and eating "moderate protein" would have been an additional level of effort that, I think, would have made following Atkins feel more like "a diet" to me than "a lifestyle."

We're all individuals, so our personalities will make certain nutrition plans suitable for some people and unsuitable for others. And for me, the 2002 version of Atkins has *worked* because -- in large part -- it's SO SIMPLE. There are very clear lists of what to eat and what not to eat. So I don't have to eat a lot of fat when I don't feel like eating fat, as long as the food I'm eating is allowed on the Atkins plan. And I never have to worry about eating *too much* protein. I just eat what I feel like eating, based on the lists in the book, and that's all the attention that I need to give to my daily food intake.

I totally appreciate the Phinney/Volek/Westman contribution to the body of research, but I feel like their approach detracts from the *simplicity* of Dr Atkins's versions of the diet. I may be wrong, I mean, I've only done the 2002 version of Atkins so I can't really compare it to the new version. The new version just *sounds* to me like Atkins + all of the counting that made me avoid dieting for so many years.

Anyway, that's just my $0.02...
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Old 06-04-2013, 12:20 PM   #21
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I kind of agree with you. I still follow 2002 Atkins, with an eye toward the NK approach. The only reason I can't say I'm doing Atkins 100% is because I won't be climbing the carb ladder, I'll be staying in ketosis, and eating LC/MP/HF, long term. That's different from what Dr. Atkins advocated. However, I do believe he would have evolved as Dr. Phinney has, had he lived to see some of the more recent research.

I still only eat from the induction foods list, and don't count anything beyond carbs, and that's how I like it.
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Old 06-04-2013, 01:01 PM   #22
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I don't count carbs. All I did was to stop eating flour/sugar/pasta/rice/soy/wheat foods. Dairy is still a problem with me since I tend to over do it on hard cheese.
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Old 06-04-2013, 06:28 PM   #23
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I don't count carbs. All I did was to stop eating flour/sugar/pasta/rice/soy/wheat foods. Dairy is still a problem with me since I tend to over do it on hard cheese.
Bless your heart! One of my former co-workers did something like that and he lost all of his excess bodyfat by, basically, just giving up beer and bread. He went from *looking like* a heavy, middle-aged man to looking very fit, athletic, and about 20 years younger. To be fair, I'd gone out with him after work a few times and he would knock back close to a dozen pints of lager before heading home so beer was clearly an issue for him. But still... It was AMAZING that really *basic* food eliminations changed his body so dramatically.
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