Low-carb book's defense: author Gary Taubes response in the NY Times

[weasel!]

Two weeks ago, Gary Taubes's fantastic new work, Good Calories, Bad Calories, was reviewed in the New York Times. GCBC reviews some 200 years of research into the connection between diet and chronic conditions including obesity, heart disease, cancer and diabetes. Taubes's conclusion is that the science points the finger directly at overconsumption of carbohydrates, but the public has not been told the truth. He says that many scientists, and most mainstream press, has misled us into believing things they THINK the science OUGHT to show, and have covered up what the science DOES show. (Namely, that carbs from sugar and starch make us fat and sick.)

The reviewer was Gina Kolata, author of 2007's Rethinking Thin. (Kolata's central hypothesis in her book was that pretty much nobody can lose any significant amount of weight, and that most folks' best chance for happiness might be to quit trying and accept our bodies as whatever they might be like right now.)

Kolata gave GCBC some praise, but concluded dismissivesly:

If low-carbohydrate diets are so wonderful, why is anyone fat? Most people who struggle with their weight have tried these diets and nearly all have regained everything they lost, as they do with other diets. What is the problem?

On Page 446, he finally tells us. Carbohydrates, he says, are addictive, and we’ve all gotten hooked. Those who try to break the habit start to crave them, just as an alcoholic craves a drink or a smoker craves a cigarette. But, he adds, if they are addictive, that “implies that the addiction can be overcome with sufficient time, effort and motivation.”

I’m sorry, but I’m not convinced.

Here's Kolata's review:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/bo...tml?ref=review

Today, the Times printed Taubes's response. It's hard-hitting. I hope a lot of people read this letter, read his book, and then find the low-carb, sufficient-fat WOE that works for them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/bo...=1&oref=slogin

[ItsTheWooo]

Gina Kolata's response to Gary Taubes was embarrassing
She merely reiterated her first statements and addressed none of his points (that the study only involved 16 people, that the original researchers and those who republished the data did not say it "definitively" showed anything, that the results might not and probably DID NOT apply to those with a strong predisposition to develop obesity...)
Like some kind of robot she just repeated the same statements: calorie is a calorie is a calorie.
It must suck to get caught totally ignorant so often... and then have to like formulate a defense to support your previous ill-informed statements. Something like digging a deeper and deeper hole.

It's unfortunate most will agree with her anyway.
That's the good thing about this big pile of doo doo for peeps like Kolata... you really don't need to be on top of science to seem like an expert, because the basis for council on what is or is not healthy is based in a religion, not in real medical science.

[jezzie]

If low-carbohydrate diets are so wonderful, why is anyone fat? Most people who struggle with their weight have tried these diets and nearly all have regained everything they lost, as they do with other diets.

Yes, almost everyone I know in real life gained their weight back. One has maintained since 1993.

Of the five people I know who lost a great deal of weight on WW ..... only three have maintained.
Maybe those people just happened to beat the odds.

Experts don't agree. Studies don't agree. ..... Certainly all BB people won't either.

[ItsTheWooo]

Taubes says the reason people fail on low-carbohydrate diets is that they have not overcome their addiction to carbohydrates. But that begs the question, and Taubes provides no scientific evidence to back up that claim.

Because that is a different body of research, and a different topic, all together. It would be off focus of Taubes book, which is merely to explain how we get fat/sick and why this total misinformation happened.

...and, Gina Kolata should be aware there is a huge volume of research investigating food addiction and the role of carbohydrate. It's not a radically new idea, anymore than starch and sugar make us fat.

CLUE/TIP: Research with PET scan of binge eaters show desensitized (chronically overstimulated) dopamine receptors, comparable to that of a cocaine addict.
Obviously not everyone can have this kind of response to food, or else food would wind up an addiction for everyone (the same way cocaine will produce addiction in almost everyone who uses it regularly).
CLUE/TIP #2: Insulin synthesizes brain chemicals, particularly serotonin. Serotonin, then has a "traffic cop" like domino effect where it increases, and releases secondary brain chemicals that make us feel happy, excited, motivated, and relaxed.
CLUE/TIP #3: Reread gary taubes book to find out more about the relationship between sensitivity to obesity/diabetes/illness, carbohydrate, and insulin levels.

CAN SHE PUT TOGETHER THIS PICTURE?


Maybe that will be Gary Taubes next project, eh? I would love to read it, a real non-BS book about the research of how food - different foods - affects the mind and behavior. As someone who has experienced pretty bad depression ON carbs which went away quite a lot spontaneously upon starting a very low carbohydrate diet, yes I would be interested in what through analysis of research has to say about this.
Maybe he will dedicate it to her?

[ItsTheWooo]

And, I also think a major reason people fail on low carb diets is not because they don't work (that is, the people on them feel tired, cold, hungry, miserable... i.e. the way HER ADVICE makes them feel). People fail low carb diets because of an *incredible* lack of support from the medical establishment, that trickles down to industry and laypeople.

No one can eat like a freak for life (well, a select few can , obviously, but most cannot).

That people regain weight on low carb is not evidence that people are fat gluttons who just need to eat less calories. Perhaps if we started medicalizing obesity and being honest about what causes it, maybe then we can give the kind of emotional support and council obese people need in order to maintain their diets.

Fighting with your friends, family, and coworkers that a slice of bread won't make you fat, and that you are a total bore because you won't drink sugary mixed drinks... that it's all calories...
Trying to cup your ears to all of the so educated doctors and health care workers who tell you to eat sugar and starch...

What other choice does the fat person have besides to give in and regain?
It takes an incredible amount of ... individuality, clarity, isolation from opinion... and the fact is people aren't wired like that (some are, most are not).

People fail on the kind of diet she would believe is healthful because it doesn't work, yes. If I ate that way I would be fat starving crazy as hell and hypoglycemic often. People fail on low carb because society makes it so you have almost no choice but to fail on low carb.

[jezzie]

Trying to cup your ears to all of the so educated doctors and health care workers who tell you to eat sugar and starch...

People fail on low carb because society makes it so you have almost no choice but to fail on low carb.

That seems to be sweeping generalizations. I just don't think the problem is all that simple.
I'm sixty-five years old and I have never had a doctor tell me to eat sugar and starch.

And I certainly don't think society is to blame for my failures. I'm accountable for my own choices.
I'd be embarrassed to blame society.

.

[ItsTheWooo]

Originally Posted by jezzie

That seems to be sweeping generalizations. I just don't think the problem is all that simple.
I'm sixty-five years old and I have never had a doctor tell me to eat sugar and starch.

I'm 25 and have had several doctors tell me to eat more fruit and to eat pasta but just don't eat a big portion of it.

If you've been to a doctor, and asked about diet, you've been told to eat sugar and starch

And I certainly don't think society is to blame for my failures. I'm accountable for my own choices.
I'd be embarrassed to blame society.

.

Don't you think the likelihood of success is increased proportionally with support? If not, why are you here right now?

It's scary how industry has managed to convince so many people that failure is their own responsibility alone... that there are no other factors to success besides "will" (whatever that is)

[Lynda99]

Never told to eat starches?

Ya ever seen the old food pyramid? Breads, starches, cereals, rice, and pasta are the biggest group, and have the highest number of recommended servings:The base of the pyramid.

[Goldenrod]

From the review:

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"As I read Taubes’s book, I kept wondering how he would deal with an obvious question. If low-carbohydrate diets are so wonderful, why is anyone fat?"[/COLOR]

*sigh* How about because very few people truly understand what a low carbohydrate diet IS, and WHY it works. And few people stick with it long enough to reap the benefits. If you can't get past the "induction flu," then of course you're gonna think LC doesn't work. Of course you're gonna bad-mouth it to everyone you know.

[COLOR="darkred"]If low-carbohydrate diets are so wonderful, why is anyone fat?[/COLOR]

I want to grab this woman and shake her really hard. If teeth whitening strips are so wonderful, why does anyone still have stained teeth? Simple: Not everyone *uses* them. She's talking as if everyone and their mother has tried (and I mean honestly, genuinely *tried*) eating low carb, and failed. I'm not talking about the people who eat nothing but bacon and eggs for 3 days, lose no weight, and decide that LC is bull****.

The reason so many people still have problems related to obesity even though WE KNOW LC WORKS, is that we have been told, for too long, and are STILL being told, by so-called "experts," that it is not a healthy way to eat. That we have to have grains, starches. That too much protein is bad. That eating fat will *make you fat.* That eating a "100-calorie pack" of Oreos is no different than eating 100 calories of broccoli, because a calorie is a calorie is a calorie.

This poor, poor woman...ignorance is bliss.

[Marvelissa]

in response/defense of it'sthewooo's statement "People fail on low carb because society makes it so you have almost no choice but to fail on low carb." - I've gotta say I agree with her on this. While I am a HUGE believer in accepting personal responsibility for our own flaws/failures - society does play a contributing part where diet/weight is concerned, at least on some levels. I love low carb and I think I am still in the induction flu phase - that said, the only EASY way I have found to stay "clean" on induction is to prepare virtually ALL of my own foods. In today's fast-paced world that can be difficult to say the least (and I am someone who REALLY LIKES cooking). If I am eating sugars, carbs, starches - I can pull into ANY restaurant, fast food or more formal dining and pick any single thing off of the menu and eat. With LC I have to drill my servers for nutritional information they may not all be privvy too and then hope and pray that what I am served TRULY has no added starches or sugars or carbs of any kind. Restaurants have "heart healthy" LOW FAT versions of many menu items - but you don't find, easily, restaurants with no sugar/low carb versions of their menu items - instead you have to give a lengthy order with several specific instructions that may or may not be followed closesly by the server or the cooks.

For moral support - FORGET IT. Everyone, EVERYWHERE will take every opportunity to tell you how crazy your new "diet" is. I've had people tell me to my face I'm going to fail - and they really are well-meaning. No one says, GOOD FOR YOU! I hope it works, I'm glad to see you making this change for yourself. Instead they want to quickly discourage you from doing low carb. And support - IS important. You're right woo - if we don't agree that support is essential in our success, then what is the point of participating here? I found LC Friends because I was searching furiously for some form of support - just to know there were others trying this LC thing - because I couldn't find ANY support here in the real world.

And I've had doctors and nutritionists encourage me to eat high sugar fruits and "white" carbs (in moderation of course - what a joke when I went to them specifically to say I'm having a problem controlling myself with these foods - DUH! Moderation is out of the question for me and I DO believe I'm an addict much like a drug addict, just look at my signature) - and my doctor's office actually DISPLAYS the Food Pyramid in the hallway!!!!!

I HEART IT'S THE WOOOOOO!

[mom2zeke]

While I think Gina's review and answer to Gary Taube's letter were dumb, I think she's actually a pretty smart woman who just can't see beyond her biases. Her book, Rethinking Thin, is actually a pretty good look at why dieting has failed us all miserably. She just needed to dig down a little deeper to get to where Taubes is. Taubes dealt with a lot of the same studies and issues that Kolata did, he just went further and took a look at the function of carbohydrates. Gina stopped at the place where most diets don't work. Even low carb ones. And she's right. The majority of people who go on a diet will gain back the weight and more. If you look at the statistics, most people are better off never going on a diet at all.

What Taubes is saying is that we've been looking at this thing all wrong. That it's not the amount we're eating that's making us fat, it's the way our bodies utilize different macronutrients and our hormonal processes, etc. that cause our bodies to become fat. Gina almost says this too in her book. She just misses the link between carbohydrates and how they interact with our metabolisms to make us fat.

Gina was able to go against the prevailing wisdom only so far. She's still stuck in the old paradigm, so of course she comes to the conclusion that diets don't work. I heartily agree with her on that statement. If I ever thought of this way of eating as a diet, I no longer do. It's the way I eat for both my weight and my health. Sugar and processed carbs aren't even an option for me except in the most rare of circumstances.

As others on this thread have pointed out, this is very difficult to pull off and have a social life. Just this weekend we went to a friend's birthday dinner at a Chinese restaurant (I had to order my own stir fried beef & veggies and couldn't partake in the shared order) and then last night at a halloween party there were 15 plates of candy, cookes, brownies and doughnuts. One plate of cheese and crackers. It's even worse when you've been invited to dinner at a friend's house and find out that the menu is pasta, or a baked potato bar or something else along those lines. We live in a society where many of the eating rituals are based around sugars, grains and starches. So in order to succeed in this WOL, you need the strength to get over making yourself and your friends uncomfortable when turning down food.

[Charski]

IMHO - diets fail long-term because people fail to follow them long-term. Some, because they're just not sustainable long-term, and some, because people THINK of them as something they'll do to lose the weight, then they can return to their previous WOE and live happily ever after!

I think Gary Taubes is right on the money and I'm glad he wrote this recent book. I haven't finished it yet but so far I'm in total agreement with the man.

[realityjunkee]

My feeling is summed up quite well by AllieCat's quote:

People fail because they call it a diet. [COLOR=red]It's not a freakin' diet![/COLOR]

• [COLOR=black]Taube's book is so great because it shows time and time again that when cultures who had no civilized diseases are exposed to Western diets they develop diseases within about 20 years. Most of us have been eating that way for well over 20 years. The only way to be successful and many of the long term maintainers here are great examples is to continue this WOE forever. Not for now and go back to that lifestyle when the weight is gone. It'll work for awhile--most of us who have gained back our weight go back to old habits--you maintain awhile, get a false sense of security and BOOM you start gaining 10 lbs a month (at least I do anyway...lol) then you say Oh, ten pounds won't be hard to lose, I'll start eating right again in the morning. Then the morning comes and the addiction calls and you go to bed that night thinking, I'll do good in the morning...and the cycle continues. Then the next thing you know you've undone all your hard work and you feel like crap. Addiction is a witch.[/COLOR]

Kim

[Stash'sWife]

Oh man...I remember getting flack from my dad about buttering my steak!

LOL

However, he saw the pounds come off!

I just hope I haven't put anyone off of LC by going off of it and regaining like I did.

[JeriRat]

I just tell people that I'm on a low carb diet, no sugar or flour. There is very little societal support for this WOE. I, like Marvelissa, have to prepare all my meals from scratch. There are few products in the grocery stores to help me. Even the sugar-free products are still high in carbs. I live in a major metropolitan area and still have to order almost all of my low carb products.

I rarely eat out but when I do my choices are limited because it seems like practically every dish is based on starch. That's because starch is cheap.

Actually I hope that low carb catches on again so that there are more choices.

[fawn]

No one can eat like a freak for life

Hey, I'm representing that statement! I'm happy to be a freak though.

[sugarless4life]

Originally Posted by jezzie

Yes, almost everyone I know in real life gained their weight back. One has maintained since 1993.

Of the five people I know who lost a great deal of weight on WW ..... only three have maintained.
Maybe those people just happened to beat the odds.

Experts don't agree. Studies don't agree. ..... Certainly all BB people won't either.

WITHOUT A PERMANENT LIFESTYLE CHANGE, ALL DIETS, LC OR NOT, WILL FAIL. Is that the fault of the particular DIET? Nope. The ultimate key to success is the 100% commitment by the person following ANY plan.

BTW, you can put me on the list of those people you know who HAS NOT gained the weight back in nearly 6 years.

Betty

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by fawn

Hey, I'm representing that statement! I'm happy to be a freak though.

ME TOO Fawn.

[sugarless4life]

Originally Posted by fawn

Hey, I'm representing that statement! I'm happy to be a freak though.

PROUD MEMBER OF THE FAWN'S FREAK CLUB HERE!

Betty

[ItsTheWooo]

Originally Posted by fawn

Hey, I'm representing that statement! I'm happy to be a freak though.

I am a fellow freak fawn so don't take it personally!

People give me THE EYE when I'm in a restaurant and start doing the whole "can you sub this for that" routine ... and classmates try not to notice how freakish it is that I eat nuts and protein bars for snacks instead of "normal food" (aka bags of chips and rolls and cookies from vending machines).

At least if I were diabetic people ( most people) would have an awareness that I had no choice but to eat this way. There would be some understanding.

Because obesity is considered a question of choice, it appears as if I am just a weirdo with an eating disorder or some kind of issues when I eat my little weird meals. They have no idea that I have to avoid sugar and starch 100% of the time or else physically real things happen that make me not so happy and healthy.

Denying to participate in food is like rejecting the person. We are our food (as much as we like to pretend "holidays and celebrations have nothing to do with food" this is just a myth, not reality. Celebrations are about food, because we are made up of food and I mean that in a biological way. Food means life. Therefore, all of our social customs have food as a central theme, always have, and always will... just as people aren't wired to reject the opinions of authority and friends, people ARE wired to have food central to celebrations and social gatherings. The point of society, if you really think about it, is a really elaborate tactic to procure food, so we can live long enough to reproduce. But I digress).
There is no better way to isolate yourself and identify yourself as different like refusing to eat something someone else is eating/sharing.
Example: some say part of the reason that middle eastern religions have contraindications against eating pork is because it was such a favored food of neighboring cultures: this helped keep traitors out, it helped promote group solidarity and identity; NOTHING says "you are not part of me" like refusing to eat the same things another is eating.

That doctors stand there arms crossed telling fatties to just exercise more and eat less not only exacerbates the previous problem (the rejection everyone feels for being isolated from cultural food)... but it compounds the problem with a lack of confirmation that this IS the right choice. At least when a diabetic feels the of denying food and eating weird, they can be confident they are doing the right thing cuz doctor says so. A fatty on low carb can't even be sure of that... after all, fatty should be eating salad and existing on starvation - like rashers of food made up of nutritionally anemic carbohydrate.

To low carb is to do it alone. And no one can do that forever.
Is it any wonder low carb dieters have such an active online community?

[Sarajewel]

OMG! The statistics just stink! I want to be a freak so badly!

[homestretch]

I know a lot of people who have lost weight and kept it off. The statistics on keeping weight off are skewed because the group of people they get the statistics from are people in hospital treatment programs. This group is the super obese who are least likely to lose weight and keep it off in the first place. The people I know who kept the weight off seem to be people who make lifestyle changes on their own and not the ones who go to WW, Jenny Craig etc. Maybe it has more to do with making permanent lifestyle changes than paying some program to hopefully be the weight loss miracle you are looking for. If you do it yourself in the first place you learn to deal rather than relying on a program to fix things. Who can be a WW or Jenny Craig member for the next 30 years?

[sugarless4life]

To low carb is to do it alone. And no one can do that forever.

I can, and I will. With or without anyone else. I feel no "rejection" when I don't eat what others think I should. I feel strong and proud that I am making the better choice.


Betty

[jezzie]

Originally Posted by sugarless4life

I can, and I will. With or without anyone else. I feel no "rejection" when I don't eat what others
think I should. I feel strong and proud that I am making the better choice.


Betty

Whew ... Thank you.

I was starting to wonder if I was wrong and most people really are followers after all.

[mztags90]

Well all i can say is, I am living proof it works!

[Charski]

I'm proud to be living proof too! And I have NO DESIRE to return to my previous ways so I guess I'll continue to be living proof. I hope so anyway!

I just had to respond to this - Woo says: "At least if I were diabetic people ( most people) would have an awareness that I had no choice but to eat this way. There would be some understanding."

Boy, I wish that were true! DH is currently visiting his 82 year old uncle. Like most everyone else in the family, uncle is insulin-dependent diabetic and HAS been for many years. For the past several years, he has been on dialysis, first peritoneal and now "regular" dialysis.

So DH calls me night before last and tells me how they all (the extended family) had this big conversation about what starches do to you, how bad they are for diabetics, blah blah blah. He's feeling pretty good that they all "get it."

Fast forward to LAST night - he goes to dinner with the uncle at the daughter's house (who was party to the previous conversation) and what do they have for dinner? Beans, potatoes, cornbread, and some meat patties smothered in ketchup! LOL! And they're serving this crap to an insulin-dependent, on-dialysis 82 year old man. Since he lives in an apartment above their garage, I have to figure they feed him crap like this frequently....

Anyway DH was totally nonplussed about it. In one ear, out the other, obviously!

[sugarless4life]

Char, that is incredible!

I really couldn't care less who "understands" what I choose to eat. Neither do I feel any obligation to "fit in" to what others do or say. Ironically, when I used to "fit in", I did NOT "fit in" to my clothes.....so call me a rebel if you wish, I don't care. All I know is, I love how the clothes fit on this rebel now!!!!



Betty

[ItsNot2L8]

Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo

There is no better way to isolate yourself and identify yourself as different like refusing to eat something someone else is eating/sharing...NOTHING says "you are not part of me" like refusing to eat the same things another is eating.

This is a really good point, and I don't think acknowledging it makes me a follower, nor does the resentment I feel sometimes about having to work so much harder to keep it low-carb than if I just kept with a high-sugar, high-starch diet like everyone else around me. Even though no one rejects me, I'm still calling attention to the fact that I'm different, and I don't think not wanting to be the one who's different every time there's food on the table makes me a follower. Everyone feels peer pressure and the need to be like everyone else at some time or other, whether it's about food, clothes, cars, kids, whatever; there's a strong human instinct to associate with other people who are somehow like us. If we didn't need the fellowship and support of people who are like us in regards to nutrition, then what are we doing here?

[JessicaH]

Well... here goes my theory....

Around the 1970's manufacturers discovered that they could give foods a longer shelf life and mass produce if they added chemical ingredients. Some of the first mass produced items were breads, desserts, and candies... oh and lets not forget soda! Knowing that these foods could be mass produced and done so for very little money, the FDA recommends that grains/starchs should be the mainstay of our diet.

Prior to this, we ate real food that was not modified to extend the shelf life of the food. Our foods were not pumped full of fillers to make them cheaper, or fake flavoring and preservatives. In an attempt to make things 'low fat' (which the FDA was telling us all we HAD to do!), the food manufacturers removed the so called bad fats and replaced them with sugars (because they no longer tasted good without the natural fats) and starches to help us feel full.

The kickback to altering our foods is that the nation has become fat. I hate to say it, but in many cases it seems the poorer a family is, the bigger they seem to be. All they can afford are the high starch, high sugar, processed foods. In addition, time constraints on families with two working parents often restricts their ability to cook. These items combined.... less time to cook, real food costs more, people are moving less, and the mass availability of processed foods... have led us to become dependent on the 'fake foods' so readily available. In addition, we have been told (at least for my lifetime) to trust the FDA, that they know what is best for us. I was raised to believe that low fat was necessary to live a healthy life. However, my great grandmother (92 years old) is my living proof that real food is best. She always ate real food, didn't ever have a weight problem, and never had the digestive problems that people are having en mass today.

Anyway... that's my two cents... or at least an overview of it. I wish you all the best in your search for health. Take care and remember, just becuase someone told you real food was 'bad' doesn't mean they are right. You know what works and what makes you feel good. So do it!

[ItsTheWooo]

Originally Posted by sugarless4life

I can, and I will. With or without anyone else. I feel no "rejection" when I don't eat what others think I should. I feel strong and proud that I am making the better choice.


Betty

I am aware there are exceptions, I am one of them. But most people cannot and will not do this (eat differently, involving a bit of self isolation) for life, and you must appreciate that this is true for a lot of people.