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Old 08-17-2009, 12:20 PM   #271
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I make the 2 loaf variation (my tweaks to the recipe are a page or two back) and I'm mixing it in a Kitchenaid (with the dough hook). I mix it a long time, but 16 minutes should be enough. Most bread machines knead, then rise, then knead again. This bread can't be kneaded twice (it'll deflate then not rise properly for the second rise). I found it works best with rapid rise yeast. This is what I would do if I were to use a bread machine and making one loaf.

Make sure your water is 97 degrees. Use rapid rise yeast, and only use the bread machine to knead your bread (keep an eye on it, and remove it after it stops the 1st kneading, or restart it right away so it kneads a second time without pause). After it's done kneading, shape it into a loaf and put it in a greased bread loaf pan. Put the pan in your oven on the middle rack and allow it to rise 30 minutes (don't let it go too long or it will over "proof" and deflate). 30 minutes seems to be just right whenever I make buns/bread from this recipe using rapid rise yeast. Leaving your pan in the oven, turn the oven on to 350 and cook it for 30-45 minutes (could take up to an hour). Just keep an eye on it, after 30 minutes it should start browning - check it every 5 minutes or so, you want it dark brown but not burnt. Hope that helps. I've never had any luck getting a good low carb loaf out of a bread machine. They are great though to do the kneading part.
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:13 PM   #272
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Thanks Angie for all your wonderful advice..I tried again last nite after finding ww pastry flour at my health food store. I did the two loaf version, with rapid rise yeast, kneaded 16 min bread machine, then split the dough in two, placed in preheated (shut off) oven and let it rise for 40 mins. Looked about half the size of the "Grandma's above loaves..Had a golden brown color and the house smelled good but didnt get a good rise out of it..I just know by these qualities alone, it would have been perfect if they had risen more than 3 or so inches..

What about the yeast? Should it be proofed beforehand? Would that make a difference?? Im putting the ingredients into the bread machine just like they say in the recipe..

Anyone know why some of us are getting a beautiful rise and others arent? Im searching for tips on baking with these products..

I am very happy to report though that I think Im very close to getting a real keeper of a recipe and that thrills me!!!
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Old 08-18-2009, 02:26 PM   #273
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Mallory, I'm not sure what's happening to your breads as most people have success with this recipe. Thank you, Angie for your insight, as you've had such wonderful success with this bread along with so many other people on this thread.

I've had plenty of experience with low-carb breads in a bread machine and my recipes turn out great, however, a friend of mine had a different bread machine that had a cycle that was too long (must use the rapid cycle) - the bread did not rise very well as a result. Low-carb dough is a bit finicky to say the least. However, this particular bread has never given me any problems, and I'm really stumped as to what could possibly be going wrong here.

If I make the oat flour version in the bread machine, it will not rise as high as the whole wheat pastry flour version, and the same for doing it first in the bread maker and in then letting it rise in the oven. If your bread machine has a too-powerful kneading action or there is more than one rise, that could be the problem.

Make sure the yeast does not come in contact with water. Hope you're using sugar for the yeast to consume? Your oven is not too hot by any chance? Some ovens run hot and that could kill the yeast and the rising process. Do not remove the breads at the end of rising - just leave them in and switch the oven on. If your vital wheat gluten (should be at least 75% gluten) is actually wheat gluten flour (which is different), the results will be quite different as the loaf method requires a great deal of gluten. Other than that, I would be tempted to say, skip the bread maker and follow Angie's method to the letter, if you still want to experiment with this bread after that experience. So sorry that happened to you. There is something we're all missing here and I'm not sure what it is.
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Old 08-19-2009, 06:40 AM   #274
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Thank you so much for the help Jennifer..and by the way.. to a fellow Canadian!
I am going to try again with new rapid rise yeast (could have been a bad batch?) You have me intrigued with the statement about the yeast not coming into contact with the water?? I never watched to see whether or not that happened...could that be an issue? I do use sugar to consume the yeast..and Im going to use all ww pastry flour..would that make it lighter in consistency?

I set my machine to quick bread which kneads for 16 mins with no rise..maybe Ill switch to dough only and see if that makes a difference. I really do like this recipe though and will persevere until I get it right..

I just went back thru the posts and am going to dig out my old machine with the dough hooks to see if that works the dough better and maybe my dough isnt wet enough? I use the exact measurements posted and have a great dough, moist and sticky but not wet, and maybe it needs a bit more moisture?? Off to experiment..

Last edited by Mallory; 08-19-2009 at 06:55 AM..
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:42 AM   #275
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Hi Mallory - Yes, I'm Canadian (originally South African, but I left at age 21), and now I'm living in the tropics - happy and retired, although that last statement is iffy. I'm still very busy with other things.

Definitely use the dough cycle - that is important.

All whole wheat pastry flour will not make the consistency any lighter, but it should rise better than the oat version.

Your dough sounds perfect - don't add any more moisture. In fact, for the oat version (the 2 loaves version), we figured out that we did not need 3 tbsp extra water, but maybe only 1 tbsp or not even, if I recall correctly.

If it is any consolation, some bread machines will perform better and differently to others. I had more success with this recipe with an older bread machine of mine (upright/vertical loaf version), than with the newer one, which produces a smaller, horizontal loaf.
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:52 AM   #276
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Another thing Mallory, (hopefully you haven't already started it baking.... just found this) if it hasn't risen enough in 40 min, then let it rise longer. I often have to let my breads rise at least an hour. Sometimes more. (Don't go too long, but if need be, let it rise longer than 40 min.) Temps, humidity, moisture content, as you said, can all affect the way breads rise, as well as other factors.
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:04 AM   #277
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Thanks, Crazywoman for those very useful insights.

Mallory, I forgot to answer one of your questions. The yeast must not come in contact with the water, as that will affect the outcome.
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Old 08-20-2009, 05:13 PM   #278
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Jennifer - I made this today. I left out the oat flour, and used whole wheat instead. I cannot believe how high this loaf rose! I do not need to take the recipe times one and a half to get a decent sized loaf in my 2 lb. pan, I just need to get rid of the oat flour.

Another thing happened. I set it to rise for 40 minutes, and I can't believe how quickly it rose. That was with standard yeast, not quick-rise. I used a teaspoon of honey, no sugar or Erythritol, and it was a little warm in the house today. This is the best one yet, just a little big.
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Old 08-21-2009, 01:14 PM   #279
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Thanks for sharing your experience with this recipe, Miboje. I think it will be helpful for people to realize that the whole wheat pastry flour option is more successful and only marginally more carbs, because a bigger loaf means more slices, right? That is news to me - the yeast eats the honey. Well, I guess that settles it - honey is sugar!
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Old 08-22-2009, 07:30 PM   #280
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Success! I tried this recipe again only I used all ww pastry flour, bought new rapid rise yeast (even though mine was good until 2010) and used my mixmaster with the hooks instead of the bread machine. The texture of the dough was completely different this time, whether it was the new yeast or the kneading, but it was like realy bread dough!!

The hooks really knead that dough alot differently than the bread machine and I kneaded for 16 mins. Used a bit smaller bread pans than the last time and after 45 mins rising, they were beautiful!!! They fell while cooling but thats not a huge issue for me as long as they taste good. Ill have to read back to see if there is any trick to the bread not falling while cooling..

Just wanted to report my success and again to thank everyone for their tips and advice..I am very very happy!
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Old 08-23-2009, 08:10 AM   #281
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Thanks, Mallory, for reporting back your success and also for all the good tips. Angie has a slightly different version of this bread maybe a couple of screens back in this thread using Chia seeds and I forget what else. Her loaves and hamburger buns did not sink even a little upon cooling.
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Old 08-27-2009, 04:24 AM   #282
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You are welcome Jennifer.

I'm not positive, but I read that too long a rise time is why the loaf falls after baking. The last time I made the bread, it was really warm in my kitchen, I used honey, and did not use rapid rise yeast. 40 minutes rise time ended up being too long because the loaf fell. I watched it rise like a hawk, and saw that the gasses were escaping from the top. It must have been too long. Next time I will allow it to rise for 35 minutes instead. Unfortuantely, it appears there is more than one factor that affects rise time even though my dough is in the machine the whole time.
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Old 08-27-2009, 09:10 AM   #283
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Hi Miboje - I will be making this recipe again soon and will see how my bread does in the bread machine and in the loaf version. I cannot alter the rising time when I do it only in the bread machine. I use the short cycle bread as two risings would be too much for this loaf. I wonder if you used sugar if that would make a difference. Remember the sugar gets completely eaten by the yeast, so not to worry.

I have made this bread, where the loaves did not fall and I've made them, when they did sink a bit, if I remember correctly - I have the pictures of the perfect loaves to prove it. Please don't ask me how those different scenarios happened! For me, it's not a huge issue, but I do have other breads that are less finicky, although a bit more carby - 0.7 g more per slice of my Cinnamon Raisin bread which makes a big loaf, but I cut it into the same number of slices. The difference seems to be that there is more sweetener in the loaf - the raisins (2 tbsp, snipped in half), the Splenda in the vanilla whey protein and the sucralose in the Davinci Sugar Free Cinnamon syrup. Interesting....
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Old 08-28-2009, 05:36 AM   #284
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HI Jennifer - I've made your bread about 6 times now, and I had always used sugar and E up to the last loaf. Don't know why I decided to try honey. I assumed it would get eaten by the yeast.

My machine has a Low Carb cycle, but the included recipe is 12 g. carbs per slice. You can't have two rises for really low carb bread, so I don't use that cycle. My bread machine is completely customizable. I can alter everything and create a custom cycle, which is what I do.

I wish I had known from the beginning though that you can only rise low carb bread once. I wasted a lot of ingredients, and suffered disappointment several times.

All of mine have not fallen. Most have as I try to figure out the perfect rise time. It's a thin line to walk with rise time, especially when I was not using quick-rise yeast. I don't know for sure how it (the sinking) happened this time, except I noticed it rose much faster than normal and I did not catch it in time.

Baking low carb bread has turned out to be my most challenging endeavor for my diet!
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:30 AM   #285
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I did some research on bread baking and I came up with two possible causes for the "falling"..The dough was risen too much and air was trapped under the crust (air bubble) and then fell upon the change in temperature (thats what happened to me)
The other could be that the the air bubbles werent all out of the dough before being placed in the pan..
I just cut the dough in half and kinda formed it into a triangle and placed it in the pan..I guess maybe you should play around for a bit too make sure??
Anyway, I just had a grilled cheese sandwich for lunch and not only did it crisp up beautifully, but it was very tasty..
My next batch, I will watch the rise and maybe start baking after 20-30 min rise if thats sufficient and I will also make sure all air bubbles are out..maybe thats a heads up for anyone else too??
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Old 08-28-2009, 03:24 PM   #286
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Mallory - I believe with my last loaf that I definately left it rise too long. I saw gas escaping from the top of the loaf.

Yesterday, I had fried eggs and toast for the first time since Feb. and it was quite tasty, too. Maybe I'll try french toast with it next time.
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Old 08-30-2009, 08:59 AM   #287
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Oh, I'm envious you guys! Mallory and Miboje, you're both becoming quite scientific with the bread making. I have 3 old bread machines (one is my own, one inherited and another bought from a lady leaving the country), but none of them have a way to customize timing of rising and all of that. Wow!

Miboje, yes, I wish in hindsight that I had warned people that 2 risings in the bread machine are a problem for low-carb breads - that's why I suggested the bread rapid cycle as the other cycle did not work for my breads. I just assumed all bread machines were like mine. Apparently not!

This week I will be making this bread, so I will report back any findings that may be useful. I'll be making the whole wheat pastry flour version.
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Old 08-31-2009, 12:06 PM   #288
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I'm too lazy to read through all the posts in this thread, so if it's already been posted, just ignore me! I've had fewer problems with the bread falling since I've done it the following way: (first of all, I use a KitchenAid mixer, not a bread machine). I dissolve the sugar, warm water and yeast in the mixing bowl, stir it well and then let it grow until it gets really, really foamy -- ten minutes would be good. Then I add the rest of the ingredients and beat it for five minutes maximum at a fairly high speed (6 to 8). Don't beat it any more, and if it gathers around the dough hook earlier, stop beating. I'm guessing that overbeating and over-developing the gluten causes it to rise too much and then collapse. Shape it, place it in a pan with the bottom only greased and let rise and bake as usual. Let it cool for an hour in the pan and -- if you can stand it -- don't cut it for another hour. Also, I've started using ground sesame seeds instead of flax meal -- the taste is out of this world!
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Old 08-31-2009, 12:17 PM   #289
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Thank you oliveoyl, I was wondering about the yeast, water, sugar interaction as I am not using a bread machine either and was concerned about things mixing that shouldn't.

If you are kneading for 5 mins with the dough hooks, then I'm definitely overkneading as I had read to knead it for about 15-16 mins. My next batch, which will be very soon as I'm almost out, will be done just like you post, and I'm sure I will get great results!!!
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Old 08-31-2009, 02:14 PM   #290
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Oliveoyl, you must be using the kind of yeast that is required to mix in water? Surely, you don't do that with the instant yeast?
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Old 09-01-2009, 02:35 PM   #291
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Back from a 10 day vacation and just made buns again. I use rapid rise yeast, I don't proof the yeast in water first - I just combine all the wet ingredients (and beat the eggs) in my kitchenaid. Then in a separate bowl I add all the dry including the rapid rise yeast and mix it all together. I dump the dry into the wet and beat it for 10-15 minutes until I'm able to achieve the "window pane" test. Then I just shape, and let dough rise 30 mins in oven. Bake buns for 20 minutes. This dough is VERY forgiving, I've used every different kind of combination of flours and the last batch I made I used only 1 cup of vital wheat gluten (for the 2 loaf variation) and it still turned out great. I get an enormous rise from this bread, and the latest buns fell just a tiny bit but they rose almost 3-4 inches high after they baked.
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Old 09-01-2009, 05:05 PM   #292
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Well, I read the whole darn thing, and am going to try this just as soon as I get the ww pastry flour. You guys are all so smart. Thanks again from all of us,Jen. I went through all of your cookbooks this last weekend, and now I can't remember a thing. Ha ha. JUlie
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Old 09-03-2009, 11:21 AM   #293
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Scottsdalejuie- I don't have access to ww pastry flour, only regular ww flour, and it works out ok.

Jennifer, please see my new thread in this forum. It's about your buns! I've got pics of your buns. Thanks to Charski, I decided to try. I may have let them rise too long, or did not have enough flour. Nevertheless, I could not be more pleased. To heck with loaf bread ever again! I think I am gonna sell my bread machine! I LOVE your buns!

Also, my first attempts at low carb bread was Gabi's recipe. By the time this thread was posted, I knew to rise only once.

Charski - Thank you for recommending reducing the VWG. That made SUCH a difference in the finished product!

Last edited by miboje; 09-03-2009 at 11:22 AM.. Reason: correction of punctuation
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Old 09-07-2009, 06:39 AM   #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BikerAng View Post
2/3 cup whole wheat pastry flour (150 mL)
1/2 cup ground salba seeds (chia) (125 mL)
Angie - I finally found the chia seeds locally. Did you grind yours in a coffee grinder and then just add them to the flour mixture? The ones I bought were in the bulk bin at Whole Foods - they're pretty tiny, but not ground.

Also, do you think the whole wheat pastry flour is milder than regular whole wheat flour? In our high carb days, we enjoyed multi-grain breads, but not straight whole wheat so much.

If there's still a strong whole wheat flavor, I'll probably be better off sticking to a LC option that doesn't include WW; or maybe I could cut it with some milder flours?
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Old 09-07-2009, 09:17 AM   #295
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Jill - I ground the chia seeds to a "flour" consistency in a magic bullet (coffee grinder would work great too). I've played around with the flour in this recipe a lot, but the whole wheat pastry flour was the one that didn't sink at all. I don't think it has an overwhelming whole wheat taste, this bread is extremely light and the crust is a bit chewy - not a heavy dark loaf you'd imagine by looking at it. I've used oat and buckwheat (1/2 of each) in this too and that's a great variation.
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Old 09-07-2009, 09:27 AM   #296
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Thanks so much, Angie. I'll give it a try since I've gathered all the ingredients and have the stand mixer out. I really like your tweaks - especially the chia seeds. I've been reading some great reviews on their health benefits.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:54 AM   #297
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Angie - I just put my bread in the oven to rise. I used your recipe (the latest one), but I'm wondering if I kneaded the dough too much or didn't use enough liquid. The dough was VERY stretchy...if I tried to roll it out, it would spring right back lol. I divided the dough equally and have one loaf and a few buns rising.

I kneaded in my stand mixer with dough hooks for 20 minutes and used a cup of warm water, plus a tablespoon or so.

What do you think? Too much kneading or too little liquid? I'm NOT a bread maker, I can tell you that lol.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:09 AM   #298
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Were you able to stretch the dough and get a thin membrane that wouldn't tear (window pane test)? This dough is a bit stretchy because of all the vital wheat gluten, but it should be workable - i.e.: can shape buns/loafs ok. I tried making pizza with this bread dough and it wouldn't roll out - just kept springing back.

If you knead it too much, it will "break" and turn into a stringy mess (and won't be retrievable). I think the dough sounds ok, it's not like regular bread dough. It should feel a bit wet and be quite springy.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:13 AM   #299
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I didn't try the window pane test (forgot). I think the reason for my panic is I've only made one other LC bread - one from Kevin's LC flour mix and although it was stretchy, it did allow me to roll it out, etc.

Anyway...my loaf and buns are HUGE after 30 minutes in a warm oven! I have gone ahead and started the baking process because after only 30 minutes, the loaf has risen to about an inch above the pan and the rolls are enormous LOL!

I will let you know how they turn out...this is so FUN!
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:30 AM   #300
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I just took the rolls out - bread has another 10 minutes or so to go (I forgot to take out the top rack and it's hitting it LOL). Rolls are beautiful! I know they'll probably sink (some or a lot), but right now they're a thing of beauty! (I'd take a pic, but the hubs has MY camera, he broke his)
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