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Old 03-17-2004, 06:57 PM   #61
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Hi KD

can you tell me why yogurt is better 1-2 days later? does some nutrition go away or something?

oh another question I had is why I didnt have a problem making soy yogurt firm up from soy milk without heating it up? i also didn't have any trouble with the hood milk either!

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Old 03-17-2004, 07:51 PM   #62
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Do any of you who are following the FBI way of eating, have recipes that you know meet the criteria for the correct FBI ratio. Could you share them? I don't mean any recipes from the commercial sites, as I realize those have a fee. Have any of you done the math on any of "our" recipes? I think I will have to read this thread several times, before I will be able to figure out the correct equations to use to figure recipes out for myself.

Thank you.
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Old 03-18-2004, 12:34 AM   #63
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My only concern about polyunsaturated fat is the way it becomes rancid so easily. I was reading another book today about the cholesterol hoax, and the topic of polyunsaturated fat came up again...the connection it has to cancer risk and raising heart disease risk because of the free radicals (peroxides) it easily forms. So, if one is careful on the quantity they eat, and they take Vit E supplements, that would help cut down on the risks. ;-) Even better would be to eat the fat in it's natural form...ie the nut, because the nut still contains all the nutrients, including the natural antioxidants.

I know what you mean about all the products that have added dry milk. That's another reason why I won't buy LC products like the protein bars, shakes, etc. Too much artificial ingredients...man's attempt to split up food fractions instead of leaving the food whole. It seems whenever man tries to change what God created, he makes a mess of it! ;-) Margarine instead of butter; genetically changed wheat so it has higher protein (gluten) content, etc. The other reason is alot of the LC foods have partially hydrogenated fat, soy, and gluten.


argo, the Fermentation book said yogurt should be eaten within the first day or two, because the longer it sits, it loses nutrients.

About the soy question, I don't know. I've never researched about soy based yogurt. The hood milk...the dry milk that is added contains denatured whey protein...the drying process damages the whey proteins, so perhaps that is the reason. There are other ingredients in the LC milk...thickeners that I can't remember which ones, that might be contributing to the thickness of it. as well. Sorry I can't give you an answer to your questions.

Maven, it would be tedious and time consuming, but if you want to figure out a recipe, here is the formula:

(0.9 fat + 0.46 protein) divided by (1.0 carb + 0.1 fat + 0.54 protein)

I'm assuming the first part of the equation is the ketogenic part, the second part that generates blood sugar. If I do the math of a ketogenic recipe that had the numbers: 165 grams protein, 61 grams carb and 633 grams fat, the equation comes out like this:

633 fat x .9 = 569.7 + 165 prot x .46 = 75.9 = 645.6 ketogenic.

61 carb + 633 x .1 = 63.3 + 165 prot x .54 = 89.1 = 213.4 non-ketogenic.

645.6 divided by 213.4 = 3.02 ketogenic ratio.

The recipe said 3.01.

I finally figured out what the formula meant when I remembered reading that a certain percentage of fat is supposed to generate blood sugar....hence the 0.1 on the right side of the formula. There are ketogenic amino acids, ketogenic/glucogenic amino acids, and glucogenic only amino acids. Plus, we know that about 52-58% of the protein we eat is converted to blood sugar...hence the .46 prot on the ketogenic side, and .54 on the non-ketogenic side. And of course, 100% of bioavailable carbs produce blood sugar. I had to minus the fiber from the total carb count to make the number work (67- 6 gr fiber). So these last three go on the non-ketogenic side of the equation. However, I don't understand the protein number being lower on the ketogenic side when more than 50% of protein we eat is converted to blood sugar!! Oh well.....

KD
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Old 03-18-2004, 04:58 AM   #64
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Thank you, Kastadiva. I'll put that through the Babel Fish translator right away.

(That is an online translator that will translate text from one languague to another)
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Old 03-18-2004, 12:28 PM   #65
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Maven, I'm not surprised the equation is confusing! ;-) When did I first post that equation?? It took me from that post until last night to understand how the equation worked!

Can you be more specific on what is confusing? Is it terminology...ie your reference to the babel fish translator. ;-) I'm assuming you are saying it is "Greek" to you. ;-) Please elaborate...

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Old 03-18-2004, 01:12 PM   #66
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Kasta will you clarify something, please? Is your theory that protein affects blood sugar regardless of carbs, or only in the absence of significant carbs?

Interestingly, I had a mac-nut binge the other night:
http://www.******.com/WebFit/PublicJ...wner=Digressor Far from knocking me from ketosis (it took my carbs over the top, but took fat up more as well), it actually seems to have busted my 2nd week stall, or at least not hindered me.

So thanks nobimbo, Kasta, and everyone who chimed in. I'll eat a bag of mac nuts every night now! (J/K) Upping my fat, proceeding with faith.
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Old 03-18-2004, 01:37 PM   #67
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Protein affects blood sugar regardless of carbs. It's based on if one eats more protein than the body needs for daily maintenance, and if one eats too much protein at one time. The body does not store protein as protein....amino acids. What isn't used in maintenance is converted to energy...blood sugar. It's well documented that about 52-58% of dietary protein is converted to blood sugar. Bernstein says 52%: McDonald says (I think) 56 or 58%. I think Eades also stated an amount, but I don't remember what it is.

In low carb, protein is used to make up the difference in blood sugar in the absence of carbs. The reason protein is better than carbs for blood sugar is the sugar spike after eating protein is slower and not as high as carbs, which lowers overall insulin levels. However, the sugar spike from excess protein can show up 3-5 hours after eating the protein.

But, doing low carb doesn't give licence to over-eat protein. I'm talking the AVERAGE person...and there will ALWAYS be an exception to the average.... ;-) This is tongue in cheek saying that people won't agree with this, and that's their right. ;-) Obviously body builders are not the average person....

I got this info from one of the biochemistry books I bought; plus info from a college science department web site. I'm not sure I could find that web site again:

The average person recycles 16 oz of pure amino acids. Of that 16 oz, 10% is trashed, and needs to be replaced from diet. 1.6 oz translates into about 43 grams. So the average person only needs 43 grams for daily maintenance. If one is eating 80 grams, that is sufficient for both body maintenance and adequate blood sugar genesis. 60-80 grams of protein per day will be sufficient for most people...men and women.

KD
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Old 03-18-2004, 02:00 PM   #68
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Any suggestions?

Ok, so how do we up the fat% w/o upping the protein and carbs? I can add more eggs, to a point. Beyond that I need some suggestions. Thanks!
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Old 03-18-2004, 07:14 PM   #69
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Yes, KastaDiva, that's what I meant. The FBI ratio math is like Greek to me, but I'm going to keep trying. Thanks for all your wonderful input.

By the way, Babel Fish is fun - http://world.altavista.com/
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Old 03-19-2004, 03:36 PM   #70
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Maven, I analyzed the best I could this recipe from DAND Cookbook, page 162, Stuffed Zippy Zucchini

Recipe says it contains 42.7 grams of carbs. My rough estimate of protein and fat using Netzer's book, are 15 grams of fat, and 18. 5 grams protein.

Here are the ingredients of the recipe:

2 medium sized zucchini
3 oz ricotta cheese
1 tsp parsley
1 onion
1 egg white
1 8z can tomato sauce

The formula:
(0.9 fat + 0.46 protein) divided by (1.0 carb + 0.1 fat + 0.54 protein)


Using the ketogenic ratio formula, first half of equation (0.9 fat + 0.46 protein):

multipy the fat grams by 0.9 = 13.5
multiply protein grams by 0.46 = 8.51

13.5 + 8.51 = 22.01 This is the insulin inhibiting amount of the ratio, or the first half of the formula.

Using the ketogenic ratio formula, last half of equation (1.0 carb + 0.1 fat + 0.54 protein) :

multiply carb grams by 1.0 = 42.7
multiply protein grams by .56 = 10.36
multiply fat grams by .1 = 1.5

1.5 + 10.36 + 42.7 = 54.56 This is the insulin releasing amount of the ratio, or the second half of the formula.

To find the ketogenic level of the recipe, divide the insulin inhibiting number by the insulin releasing number:

22.01 divided by 54.56 = 0.40

This recipe is not very ketogenic, and will require insulin release to keep blood sugar from rising. The end result of dividing the insulin inhibiting number by the insulin resleasing number needs to be at least 1.5 for it to inhibit insulin release. This recipe is not a very good recipe in terms of weight loss. It could cause weight gain. It might be low carb per serving, but it's not ketogenic in terms of generated blood sugar and insulin requirements.

The above recipe would have to have at least another 77 grams of fat to achieve the minimum ratio of 1.5, or 1.5 the amount of fat per grams of carb and protein together.

If someone wanted to do the recommended of 4 grams of fat per carb/protein, they would have to add 230 grams of fat.

The way I get these numbers is by multiplying the total of carb and protein by 1.5 or 4.0, and subtracting what the recipe already has...15 grams.

61.2 x 1.5 = 91.8 - 15 = 76.8
61.2 x 4.0 = 246 - 15 = 229.8


For us cooks that don't measure anything, but just throw a little bit of this and pinch of that....a hand full of this and a lot of that...it would be a nightmare trying to figure out the ketogenic ratio! How many cooks actually use measuring cups and spoons?? ;-)

KD
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Old 03-20-2004, 09:49 AM   #71
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So, Kasta, if we added about 7 T butter to the recipe, that would bring the fat up 77 grams and then it would fit the 1.5 ratio. I have no idea what the effect would be on the quality of the dish. It seems like it is going to be a challenge to get the fat ratio up as high as is recommended. Are you trying to eat this way?
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Old 03-20-2004, 12:59 PM   #72
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Hi Maven,

7 tbs of butter would make it the minimum ketogenic ratio. In terms of taste, the butter could only make it taste better, IMO. ;-) The approximate protein:fat:carb ratio is 20%:35%:45% And, the recipe supposedly serves 4, with about 95 calories per serving. If this recipe were to be part of a meal, the other foods would have to be pretty high in fat, no carb, and lower protein, to work. This could get very confusing and time consuming, trying to match recipes together to make the meal ketogenic.... I guess this is why Zilberter has done it for us....her program.

Yes, I'm trying to eat this way. My DH cooked breakfast today. It's ketogenic ratio was 3.8. I have already been doing high fat, but looking at Zilberter's numbers, it wasn't ketogenic enough. So far I haven't lost any weight, and my clothes aren't any looser, but my watch will no longer stay in position...keeps falling down under my wrist

However, after reading about the effects of stress, it's not likely this will work either, until I get control of how I react to stress.

KD
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Old 03-21-2004, 11:34 AM   #73
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I am fascinated by the website posted by hermit earlier in this thread - http://homodiet.netfirms.com/index.html. I stayed up until 2:00 this a.m. just surfing around the whole site. This is a diet developed by Dr. Jan Kwasniewski - as noted by KastaDiva - (from his picture he looks alot like Arte Johnson from Laugh In, for those of you old enough to remember that show) in Poland.

The website had some really interesting info. One helpful bit of information if you are going to follow this way of eating is:

"The Principles of the Optimal Diet"

"The ideal proportion between the main food components of protein, fat and carbohydrates should be in the range of :

1 : 2.5 - 3.5 : 0.8

"In order to work out the correct daily food intake using this proportion, one has to know how many grams of protein needs to be ingested in a day to satisfy body's requirements. This amount varies from person to person and depends on a "due bodyweight".
(Note - I'm taking this to mean the weight we **should** be)

"Due bodyweight, in kilograms, is equal to person's height in centimetres less 100 (± 10%). Thus, for a person 160 cm tall, a due body weight is 60 kg ± 6 kg.

"A correct amount of protein to be consumed in a day is approx. 1 g per 1 kilogram of a due bodyweight. Thus, a 60 kg person needs to consume 60 ± 6 g of protein to satisfy body's daily needs. Any excess of protein, above the daily requirement, is converted by the body to fat, provided energy requirements are met by other components.

"Having worked out the amount of protein, one can then calculate the amount of other components in a daily menu. Thus, for our typical 60 kg person, the consumption of 60 g of protein has to be accompanied by between 150 to 210 g of fat, and 30 to 50 g of carbohydrate in order to follow the prinicples of the Optimal Diet."

I have no idea about kilograms and centimeters, but you can go into Google, put in the equation and it will do the work for you. For example, I am 5'2" tall, so in the Google box, I put: "62 inches = ? centimeters" (do not use the quotation marks) and it gives me the answer: 157.48 centimeters. Do the same with any other weights or measures.

I'm not sure I can actually get my fat intake up this high, but will try to significantly increase if from what it is now, and also lower my protein intake for a while.

Another interesting page on the site is the listing of suggested menus for seven days. Remember, this is written for the country of Poland, so the menus are not something that we could easily follow. They are quite "foreign" to us. It's just interesting to read them.

The site also includes tables with the protein:fat:carbohydrate ratios for many foods.

I suppose one difference between this diet and the Atkins Diet is that you need to have the correct ratios at each meal, not just have the numbers add up at the end of the day.
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Old 03-21-2004, 12:31 PM   #74
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Thanks for an AWESOME post! This is what I need to memorize whenever someone asks me why I'm not eating the low-fat ranch dressing, or whatever. Thanks a ton, I will be keeping this handy!
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Old 03-21-2004, 12:34 PM   #75
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This has been a very interesting thread. I appreciate it - I just wish I could understand it. Maybe I need to print it out and read it slower. I get losts with the numbers and the ratios. I always counted on ****** to add it all up! lol

Its good info in regards too eating too much protein as it can turn into glucose. We read about this often but I really never understood the number game part of it.

Thanks for everyone's input.
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Old 03-22-2004, 02:42 PM   #76
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For anyone following the "optimal diet" by DR. JAN KWASNIEWSKI , here is a great calculator that you can download for a 30 day free trial. After that it becomes pretty pricy. But you can figure out ratios of recipes, etc.

http://homodiet.netfirms.com/misc/calculus.htm
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Old 03-24-2004, 07:44 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by argo2d
Hi KD

can you tell me why yogurt is better 1-2 days later? does some nutrition go away or something?

oh another question I had is why I didnt have a problem making soy yogurt firm up from soy milk without heating it up? i also didn't have any trouble with the hood milk either!


bumping for kd?
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Old 03-24-2004, 07:45 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by argo2d
Hi KD

can you tell me why yogurt is better 1-2 days later? does some nutrition go away or something?

oh another question I had is why I didnt have a problem making soy yogurt firm up from soy milk without heating it up? i also didn't have any trouble with the hood milk either!


bumping for kd?
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Old 03-24-2004, 09:05 PM   #79
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Hi argo,

You must have missed my response to your questions. I'll paste it here.

argo, the Fermentation book said yogurt should be eaten within the first day or two, because the longer it sits, it loses nutrients.

About the soy question, I don't know. I've never researched about soy based yogurt. The hood milk...the dry milk that is added contains denatured whey protein...the drying process damages the whey proteins, so perhaps that is the reason. There are other ingredients in the LC milk...thickeners that I can't remember which ones, that might be contributing to the thickness of it. as well. Sorry I can't give you an answer to your questions.

KD
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Old 03-24-2004, 11:08 PM   #80
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I love posts like this. Very interesting.
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Old 03-25-2004, 04:58 AM   #81
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On the topic of yogurt and high fat, I followed KastaDiva's suggestion of making yogurt from cream. I am trying to follow the recommendations of some the different "ways of eating" cited in this thread, a ratio of:

reduced protein intake / HIGH fat / low carb.

In trying to find ways to really up my fat percentage, this cream yogurt has been helpful. Cream's ratio (for 1 cup) is 5/88/7, so I am assuming that the cream yogurt's ratio would be the same. Another thing I notice about the cream yogurt is that it does not give me "heart burn" as regular cream does. Must be something that the little live yogurt cultures help with.

For anyone *not* worried about fat, the carb count on this yogurt is great. The price is not so great. KD also suggests adding milk to the cream before making it into yogurt which would certainly help on the price. Unfortunately, I had forgotten that part before I made it the first time and now I love it with straight cream and have not been able to make myself add the water yet. Plus it is a quick and easy way for me to add a significant amount of fat.

Last edited by maven98; 03-25-2004 at 05:00 AM..
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Old 03-25-2004, 06:08 AM   #82
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Maven, isn't the "creme bulgare" wonderful? The carb count would go down because the live cultures use the lactose.

You might also try making the custard style, using gelatin. One packet of knox unflavored is 6 grams protein. I use the gelatin to extend the cream yogurt, and also because I like the custard-like texture.

I don't remember if one packet = 2 tsps or only 1 tsp. It takes one cup water per tsp gelatin, so if the directions say 2 cups water, there are 2 tsp per packet.

I include the custard method in my yogurt post in Dana's yogurt thread on the PAP board.

A note about adding water to the cream...in the Fermentation book, it said one of the goals with fermentation was to "concentrate" the yogurt. Maybe adding water isn't such a good idea after all...live and learn. Maybe it would depend on how much water is added. And, I wonder, too, if adding more water would make more whey.

KD
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Old 03-26-2004, 12:34 PM   #83
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You know, technically, if you followed the ratio of 1.5 grams fat per protein + carb grams, you *could* have a piece of low carb toast (6 carbs+4 proteins) if you put 1.5 T butter on it. WOW!!! I'm sure that is so wrong at some level, but it does meet the ratio.
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Old 03-26-2004, 01:52 PM   #84
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That is an interesting question because fat is supposed to slow down carb digestion, etc.

However, in Protein Power, chart on page 37:

Influence of Food on Insulin and Glucagon

Carb 5+ insulin response; Glucagon no change

Protein 2+ ; 2+

Fat no change; no change

Carb/fat 4+; no change

Protein/fat 2+; 2+

Hi prot/low carb 2+; 1+

Hi carb/low prot 9+; 1+


So, according to this, it's not a good idea to eat carb and fat in combination. On page 39, it says if one continues to eat a lot a carbs while at the same time adding more fat, it will raise cholesterol (chol). Also, it says: "Altho fat is the raw material the body uses to make cholesterol, insulin runs the cellular machinery that actually makes it. If you reduce the level of insulin, the cells can't convert the fat to cholesterol, almost no matter how much fat is available. Eating fat in the absence of carb and expecting it to be converted to chol is like trying to make your car go faster by putting in a larger gas tank. If you reduce the amount of carb when you add the fat, not only will you probaby not see any increase; you could even see a reduction in chol levels."

However, I know from other reading, tho, that chol can be made from all three nutrients (protein, fat, and carbs). This is what Enig says about acetylCoA, in Know Your Fats, page 237: "the active form of acetate and is derived mainly from the oxidation of simple carb units, the oxidation of amino acids from protein, or the oxidation of fatty acids. Units of acetylCoA are used for de novo (newly made) fatty acid synthesis, to elongate existing fatty acids, and as the building blocks for cholesterol." Page 57: " All cholesterol is made from the basic molecule called acetylCoA. AcetylCoA is the product made from the metabolism of carb, extra protein, and fat. More cholesterol is made from polyunsaturated fat than saturated fat."


So, it would seem those people that want to lower cholesterol by lowering saturated fat and increasing polyunsaturated fat are making a big mistake....

KD
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