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Old 03-07-2004, 03:44 AM   #31
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From Debbie

He everybody and thank you KastaDiva for welcoming me :) Just imagine I've subscribed yesterday and lo and behold - it's a talk here about my diet and I thought I've been so unique ;)


To answer the questions I can answer.

KastaDiva's questions:

Bug in the calculator: I never ordered the CD, I've been receiving a new plan every week after I reported my prev. week's results. I don't know whether they sell this weekly plan with feedback, but you can contact them at dietandbody.com/mfeedback.html - I wrote to them yesterday but I guess can expect reply only on Monday.

Margarin in menu: I see now what you mean. But this menu is *not* by FBI, it's a sample from a standard CKD and it only goes late down the road, when you are doing LOTS of weights. On my diet, it was when I already lost all I needed.

See - this is why my diet plan was better than you've bought on CD: I couldn't do a thing before I was ready. I strongly advise that you write them and ask for a weekly planning with their help INSTEAD of the CD.

About the links: I checked them and this is my impression: A new site bought (or something) Tanya Zilberter's program so this is why dietandbody.com sells now the CD. I don't know. I'll tell you when they answer my email. However, my experience with them was only positive, they always were happy to communicate with me.

Epilepsy diet question: of course this is the basics of any ketogenic diet. However, for blocking the seizures, the ratio is above 3:1 which means FBI 3. Water restriction is for keeping the ketone body concentration high at all times, and calorie control - this is only my guess - is for keeping them sufficient so children's growth wouldn't be too slow. I can imagine that children lose their appetite on this diet.

= Debbie
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Old 03-07-2004, 07:15 PM   #32
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Great news! I think Beachgirl's basic cheesecake falls into the 4:1:1 category if SF syrup is used instead of granular splenda.

Still playing with numbers to see what I can come up with to get that ratio!

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Old 03-07-2004, 10:48 PM   #33
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Hi, new here and have been reading for a couple weeks.

I was wondering if anyone had any information about the "Homo Optimus" diet:

http://homodiet.netfirms.com/index.html

it is a non-ketogenic very high fat, moderate protein, "low carbohydrate" (around 50 grams a day on average?) diet.

I do not have the book yet because it is difficult to find in the US. A lot of what I find looking for the doctor's name brings up Polish web pages! It is apparently very popular there and has been for quite some time. It is a ratio diet, for each kg of your ideal body weight you're supposed to eat 1g protein, 2.5 to 3.5g fat and .8g carbohydrate, and if you are overweight you're supposed to start out at 1:2:0.5 (which seems as though it would be a low-calorie diet as well). And if you are very active you can consume more fat, which seems like it would be along the lines of the diet in this thread which would be 1:4:1 (p:f:c).

I'm going to check out the site in this thread now! I previously searched for Kwasniewski here and came up with no results. I found this diet by looking on another forum and someone was saying they had been following it for about 5 years and was doing great. It seems like the people following and talking about diets like these (very high fat) are engineers and physicists - I take that as a sign that it isn't killing their brain cells
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Old 03-08-2004, 02:06 AM   #34
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"homodiet"

Thank you! Interesting read.

I've calulated the "homodiet" fat burningn index and it's 1.7.

Since it's above the 1.5 it has to be a ketogenic diet. Ture, it's is not high enough in fat for a clinical detogenic diet. But from a metabolic pathway switch (from the carb one to the fat one) it's good enough.


[QUOTE][i]
http://homodiet.netfirms.com/index.html

it is a non-ketogenic very high fat, moderate protein, "low carbohydrate" (around 50 grams a day on average?) diet.
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Old 03-08-2004, 02:06 AM   #35
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"homodiet"

Thank you! Interesting read.

I've calulated the "homodiet" fat burningn index and it's 1.7.

Since it's above the 1.5 it has to be a ketogenic diet. Ture, it's is not high enough in fat for a clinical detogenic diet. But from a metabolic pathway switch (from the carb one to the fat one) it's good enough.


[QUOTE][i]
http://homodiet.netfirms.com/index.html

it is a non-ketogenic very high fat, moderate protein, "low carbohydrate" (around 50 grams a day on average?) diet.
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Old 03-08-2004, 08:04 PM   #36
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Way too deep for me.

I can barely stop thinking about food as it is. Eventually I hope that losing/maintaining my weight won't consume my life. I am willing to work at it all of my life but does every meal have to be a chemistry problem???

Good luck to all of you.

I'm gonna stick with the lowcarb thing until it doesn't work any more then maybe I'll join ya. Keep searching the information so that you all can have it perfected if I ever need to jump on the higher fat boat.

Sassy
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Old 03-09-2004, 08:09 AM   #37
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So interesting! Bumping to keep topic going...
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Old 03-09-2004, 09:42 AM   #38
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Here's an interesting site if you haven't seen it already:

http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/proteincalc.htm

It links to a calculator to help you figure out stuff like:
how many calories you use per day just to maintain
how much protein your brain needs to function
how much protein your body needs to maintain
how many calories a day should be from fat

It takes a couple of minutes and seems really complicated but if you just go step by step it's doable.

I found out that I'm doing great with protein and carbs but my fat intake and calories are a bit too high for optimal loss. Gotta work on that.
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Old 03-09-2004, 10:25 AM   #39
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I have always added fat to my diet even before Atkins because of my hypoglycemia problems. I cook steak in butter and use sour cream as a steak sauce. I always used to double the fat in regular recipes because it was too low for me and I never had a weight problem until I got older and developed more insulin resistance. I never eat chicken without the skin, dark meat.

Now that I am close to goal, I am Fat Fasting for five days per month, slowly transitioning back to normal calories (about 1800) and protein but the Fat Fast has definitely influenced my diet. I am eating less protein, more fat and smaller, more frequent meals. This is finally getting me where I've been trying to get for the past 5 1/2 years. I should have done the Fat Fast way sooner. Live and learn. The calorie cycling has been very important too. I cannot cut calories at all normally. Only the Fat Fast has allowed me to eat 1000 per day. I would have blacked out on any other diet. But I have got to keep the calories up most of the time or my metabolism drops very quickly. The Fat Fast allows me to get 2# of stored fat off very fast and then get the calories back up before I start to slow down.

I noticed that I have never even tried one of the Atkins recipes they listed as having too low a Fat Burning ratio and I have lots of them. They just didn't appeal to me I guess.
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maintenance but still learning my limits.
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Old 03-09-2004, 01:07 PM   #40
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To TVernon

Exactly! This is how I feel, too.
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Old 03-09-2004, 01:08 PM   #41
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To TVernon

Exactly! This is how I feel, too.
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Old 03-14-2004, 05:46 AM   #42
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[color=red]removed[/color]

OK, here we go. I got the reply from [color=red]removed[/color].
A new site is up and running and they have Fat Burning Index membership for $40 a month but they wrote to me that soon, there will be a new eBook on the method. They press the new title of the diet and it's the Banta Diet now[color=red]removed[/color]
Quote:
Originally posted by debbie_20005
About the links: I checked them and this is my impression: A new site bought (or something) Tanya Zilberter's program so this is why [color=red]removed[/color] sells now the CD. I don't know. I'll tell you when they answer my email.
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Old 03-14-2004, 11:01 AM   #43
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bump
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Old 03-14-2004, 12:43 PM   #44
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Hi Everyone!

Debbie, I found the Banta web site shortly after receiving the CD. Thanks for posting the reply from dietandbody. I like the name...the play on Banting's name. Also, thanks for clearing up the margarine issue. Interesting... I only bought the CD for the ketogenic calculator, and the recipe subscription. But, it really appears the ketogenic calculator is buggie.

hermit, I have read quite a lot about Knaswieski...have a lot of it archived on my computer. But, I also did another google search to see if there is more about his diet, and came across an interesting web site in Australia that lets you download e-books of old, out of print books. I was busy archiving some of these old books. ;-)

I'm confused about your description, tho. ;-) How can it be high fat, but non-ketogenic? Please explain further what you mean. ;-) Maybe it's not ketogenic because the protein amount is too high, despite the high fat level. Debbie posted the number 1.7, which is barely above the ketogenic minimum. But as she said, it is high enough to classify it as ketogenic, according to Zilberter.

I made a discovery a few days ago. I have been getting my diabetic mom the Chef's Choice low carb entrees (and I'm ignoring the trans fat in them for now, for the sake of convenience. I hope they soon get rid of the partially hydrogenated oil!) I give mom an appropriate amount of insulin for the carb amount, but her sugars always were a lot higher than I anticipated. Finally, I looked at the ketogenic ratio. Using the FBI numbers: carbs and protein grams were 55 on this one particular entree, and fat was only 17 grams. No wonder mom's sugar spiked despite the "low carbness" and insulin for the carb content! Carbs were 11, I think, so protein was about 44 grams. That's way too much protein in one sitting! According to the FBI recommendation, I would need to add 2 cubes of butter to make it the correct ratio! Because mom doesn't need to lose weight, I used the 2 grams per carb/protein grams (strictly for blood sugar control), which is still one cube of butter! Basically, those Chef's Choice low carb entrees are unsuitable for low carb, despite the low carbness of them. They are too high in protein, too low in fat. These dinners would generate excess amounts of blood sugar (as I've seen in my mom over and over again) even in non-diabetics, requiring excess insulin response...potentially causing stalls and even weight gain.

So now, when I read labels, I'm going to factor in the FBI ratio. It's not enough that it be low carb...it also has to be ketogenic.

But these entrees also say something else...low carb is characterized as high protein, not high fat. Atkins is considered the "standard" by which the low carb products are formulated. There's no way those entrees would be that high in protein/low in fat if the manufacturer believed low carb is high fat...if you know what I mean. Atkins is perceived to be a high protein diet, not high fat. This shows in the low carb food products. This is another confirmation to me that Atkins is a high protein diet...or at least is believed to be a high protein diet, which in working terms is no different...giving people the impression they can eat a lot of protein without complications. This just isn't so, IMO. ;-) Start reading labels and calculate the FBI of them. I'm going to do that, because I am very curious to know if my hypothesis is true...that low carb products are disapportionately high in protein. ;-)

OK---I'm off my soapbox now. ;-)


KD
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Old 03-14-2004, 08:19 PM   #45
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Very interesting! I think this discussion could be very helpful to people with long stalls. Mine was over two years long and this info would probably have changed that.
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Old 03-15-2004, 10:59 AM   #46
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Maybe I was mistaken on that part, but here is an example of the things I have read (unfortunately one site is no longer online to refer to, maybe there was more that I read there?)

http://www.ahoa.org.au/optimal/optimal_nutrition.html

Quote:
Any excess of carbohydrate, above the daily requirement (needed to prevent ketosis), is converted by the body to fat, provided energy requirements are met by other components. The main exception from that rule is the state of obesity. In such a case, the proportion between protein and fat should be changed to 1 (p) : 2 (f) in the initial period of 3-4 weeks (by the increase in protein and the reduction in fat intake), in order to stimulate the catabolism of the stored fat. The amount of carbohydrate should be kept low, preferably at no more then 50 g/day. Subsequently, when the weight loss is well on the way, the amounts of protein and fat can be adjusted to the ideal proportion.
So maybe it starts out as a ketogenic diet? Or does the ratio make it remain ketogenic? Most things I read about it tend to say it is not.
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Old 03-16-2004, 12:50 PM   #47
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I have a question. This all seems very applicable to my situation. I am hypoglycemic also, and I just want to get a handle on what you all are saying.

HOW do you get all the fat in? Where is the fat coming from? I have no problem eating the protein and the veggies, but I have terrible trouble getting all those calories from fat. I'm thinking I should ditch the carbsmart milk and put heavy whipping cream in my coffee and eat more whole yogurt yocheese.

Maybe I am just paranoid about adding all that dairy, which is the main source of fat that I can see.

Where and how to you add the fat? Honestly, I don't want to eat mayo out of the jar.....
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Old 03-16-2004, 01:48 PM   #48
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Thanks, I have tried some of Gram's stuff before. I avoid soy like the plague and I know Grams has no soy in their products.

I recently bought some Walden Farms no carb vinegar, and have yet to try it. I will start making my own dressing with Olive Oil and that vinegar.

Thanks for your response. Do you avoid Dairy fat at all (or anyone?)
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Old 03-16-2004, 03:33 PM   #49
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According to Netzer, in The Complete Book of Food Counts:

Butter

Regular unsalted and salted
one stick or 4 oz --- 92.0 grams fat --- 1 gram protein --- 813 calories
one tbs --- 11.4 --- 0.1 --- 100
one tsp --- 3.8 --- < 0.1 --- 34

Whipped unsalted and salted
1/2 C (4 oz) or one stick --- 61.3 --- 0.6 --- 542
one tbs --- 7.6 --- 0.1 --- 87
one tsp --- 2.6 --- trace --- 23

Cream

Heavy whipping, one cup --- fat 88.1 --- protein 4.9 --- carbs 6.6 --- cal 821
one tbs --- 5.6 --- 0.4 --- 0.3 --- 52 (divide by 3 to get teaspoon)

Oils, one tbs, range from 13 to 15 grams of fat, minute to no protein, calories 112-123, with butter oil and coconut oil being the least calories.

Mayonnaise, one tbs, is basically 11 grams fat; little to no carb and no protein; 100 calories.

Fat to protein ratio in foods have to be individually determined...a food counter book is essential, or diet software that already has it in the database, or ******.

Nuts contain varying amounts of carb and protein along with the fat. So, those nutrients would have to be considered when doing the ketogenic ratio.

I've edited this to add from Mary Enig's book, Know Your Fats:

p30-31, paraphrased-- "Saturated fatty acids are not created equal, being comprised of fatty acid chains of varying lengths. FA chains ranging from 3-12 carbons are classified as short and medium chain FA, with short chains being 10 and less, and medium chain being 10 to 12 or 14. Some researchers classify 14 carbon chain FAs as long chain. Shorter chain fatty acids do not produce as many calories as the long chain FAs. Coconut oil has less calories than soybean oil. ..... These short and medium chain FAs are not deposited to any extent in adipose tissue. Humans convert carbs and protein into long chain fatty acids. Only saturated fat contain the short and medium chain fatty acids." (end)

So, by process of elimination, it would seem that vegetable fat only contain long chain FAs, and because only the short and medium chain FAs are not usually deposited in adipose tissue, it would seem to be more prudent to eat more of these short and medium fatty acids than long chain fatty acids. In other words, our dietary fat should be more saturated than unsaturated...fat from animal sources and tropical oils, rather from vegetable oils. Plus, there is the added detriment that unsaturated oils, most especially polyunsaturated oils, are less stable than saturated fat. Vegetable oils become rancid more easily than saturated fat, with polyunsaturated (ie soybean oil) being worse than monounsaturated (like olive or peanut oil). Rancid fats produce damaging free radicals, causing lots of chronic health problems. I'm not going to list what oils are monounsaturated or polyunsaturated. Y'all can do that research for yourself. ;-) Everyone that is a serious low carber needs to get Enig's book. It's worth it's weight in gold.

I don't avoid dairy fat. However, I no longer eat cheese or yogurt made from milk. I have determined I have casein intolerance. Casein is the main protein in dairy, and cream has very little protein in it. Perhaps I should avoid cream, too, but I've noticed it doesn't give me the same physical problems that cheese/yogurt does. I make home made yogurt from heavy whipping cream. It's actually called Creme Bulgare, not yogurt, but it uses the same lactic cultures used to make milk yogurt.

KD

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Old 03-16-2004, 04:45 PM   #50
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This statement in the article bothered me, and I kept forgetting to address it:

Quote:
We are mostly conditioned from birth to use carbohydrates for fuel, so the body will use them automatically. (There's a good reason why human breast milk -- nature's intended food for infants -- contains more than 1.5 times the carbohydrates that cows' milk does.)
Breast milk is over half fat, and that fat is mostly saturated fat! The quoted comment seems to imply breast milk is higher in carbs than fat...that breast milk conditions babies to use carbs for energy instead of fat. While it may be true that human breast milk has more carbs than cow's milk, that doesn't mean it is mostly composed of carbs, and it's the main source of energy in breast milk.

I have often read that babies need different nutritional ratios than adults, so the ratio of fat to carbs/protein in breast milk needs to be higher than what an adult needs. But, is this really true? Why would an adult need less fat than a baby, just because we are now adults?

One reason given is that babies grow very fast, and need more energy for proper develoment. But, how does that really change anything? Adults are bigger...greater body mass that needs maintenance and energy.

I just wonder if the fat phobia is a bigger determinant in this supposition than science....


KD

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Old 03-16-2004, 04:48 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by KastaDiva
This statement in the article bothered me, and I kept forgetting to address it:



Breast milk is over half fat, and that fat is mostly saturated fat! The quoted comment seems to imply breast milk is higher in carbs than fat...that breast milk conditions babies to use carbs for energy instead of fat. To me, this is just another fat-phobic comment that shows bias and prejudice of the writer. While it may be true that human breast milk has more carbs than cow's milk, that doesn't mean it is mostly composed of carbs, and it's the main source of energy in breast milk.

KD
I haven't read this whole thread but I have to wonder something about this paragraph...

Is the carb's in breast milk so high because of the consumption of carbs from the mother?
If a person is LCing will the carbs be less and fat higher?

sorry if these are silly questions and off topic...
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Old 03-16-2004, 06:10 PM   #52
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To answer your question, we have to understand what exactly a carb is. I sometimes wonder if people have this mental image that carbs enter the blood stream as a whole piece of food. I see this often in people bashing low carb...they say we need carbs, when really it's blood sugar we supposedly need....not the physical, tangible piece of bread or potato or apple, etc. entering our blood stream. Our bodies can get blood sugar from protein, as well. I'm not saying this specifically about you, 3boys4me...just a general observation of what people seem to think.

Carbohydrate means a simple sugar or molecules composed of sugar units. Carbs are monosaccharide, oligosaccharide, and polysaccharide.

Monosaccharide is a single unit of sugar, the simplist form of sugar of which glucose is an example, and galactose another example.

Oligosaccharide is molecule of 2 or more single units of sugar bonded together. A disaccharide is an example, and an example of this is table sugar: a molecule of glucose with a molecule of fructose. Lactose, the sugar found in milk, is another example. It is composed of glucose and galactose.

Polysaccharide is a molecule composed of thousands of sugar units, the same or a combination of different sugars, and examples of this are starches, glycogen, and cellulose (fiber).


So, when we eat carbs (mostly found in plant sources, but also in some seafood and dairy products, etc), all the sugar molecules that are part of the carb are broken down into the simplist forms of carb...glucose, or galactose, etc. The exception being fiber. Humans don't have the enzymes needed to break down fiber.

When carbs are broken down, the end result are changes in blood sugar. Insulin converts excess blood sugar into glycogen and saturated fat. The body makes lactose for breast milk from the basic molecules of glucose and galactose.

I read in one of the nutrition textbooks I have that lactose is 5% of the weight of breast milk. So, it doesn't seem likely that there is more carbs in breast milk if the mother eats more carbs. And, if this is true that breast milk only contains 5% of lactose by weight, that certainly couldn't condition babies to use carbs for energy, especially when breast milk contains over 50% fat, unless 50% fat weighs less than 5% of lactose in weight. Or, does this say that the baby only needs 5% lactose for energy, while all the the fat is used to build the growing baby's body?? I have a friend that owns a dairy. He is paid based on the weight of the fat and protein percentage of the whole milk. Since milk is mostly water, how much then is the percent of fat, protein, and lactose in milk? I guess I need to call him to find out.


Also, the nutrition textbook says breast milk contains a high percentage of polyunsaturated fat. However, Enig says formula manufacturers use medium chain fatty acids, because these are easier for digestion...these are only found in saturated fat. So, what does one believe?

KD

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Old 03-16-2004, 08:05 PM   #53
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Thank you Kasta
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Old 03-16-2004, 08:25 PM   #54
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http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/408813_print

Breastfeeding: Unraveling the Mysteries of Mother's Milk

Volume. Milk volume is relatively constant irrespective of maternal nutritional status (Fig. 1). In general, healthy infants consume an average of 750-800mL milk daily for the first 4-5 months after birth (range, 450 to 1200mL/day).[1,10,11] Similar findings were reported from developing countries where maternal nutrition is sometimes subject to greater seasonal variation and may be less adequate compared with industrial ountries.[1,11] Increasing the intake of fluid does not seem to affect milk volume.[10] Therefore, lactating women should maintain adequate fluid intake but should not attempt to boost milk volume by consuming excess fluids.[1] In general, healthy infants consume 450 to 1200mL/day first 4-5 months after birth. Milk volume is relatively constant irrespective of maternal nutritional status.


Major nutrients. Lactose, 5.5-6.0g/dL, is the most constant nutrient in human milk (Table I). Its concentration in breast milk is not affected by maternal nutrition. Proteins amount to about 0.9g/dL in mature milk.[12] Recent studies comparing the impact of nutrition on lactation in industrialized and developing countries suggest that neither maternal diet nor body composition affects milk protein level.[1] However, limited data from earlier studies seem to indicate that short-term, high-protein diets can increase the protein and nonprotein nitrogen content of human milk,[13] while limiting maternal food intake can lead to lower milk protein levels.[13-15] The majority of milk proteins provide the newborn with immune and nonimmune protection from infection. These proteins--immunoglobulins A, G, and M; lactoferrin; and lysozyme--have various functions in the newborn.[16] Early studies suggested that the level of these protective proteins in milk is affected by maternal diet, but more recent research suggests that immunoglobulins might be stable for a wide range of diets.[17-20]

Fat. While the amount and composition of carbohydrate and protein remain relatively constant in mature human milk, the composition of fat is highly variable and is affected within hours and to a large extent by maternal nutrition intake.[21] Gestation, lactation, parity, milk volume, caloric and carbohydrate intake, and weight changes are among the maternal factors that can alter the fat content and composition of breast milk. Specifically, phospholipid and cholesterol content are higher in colostrum preterm than term breast milk. Also, long chain polyunsaturated fatty acids (LC-PUFA) are higher in preterm and transitional milk and remain high for the first 6 months in women who deliver preterm. In term milk, on the other hand, LC-PUFA declines throughout the first 6 to 12 months of lactation. The endogenous synthesis of fatty acids (FA) declines with parity, most notably after 10 births, but FAs (C6-C16) rise with a high-carbohydrate diet. Palmitic acid (C16) content of breast milk increases in a low-calorie diet. Weight gain during pregnancy is positively associated with higher milk fat content. During infant feedings, fore milk has less fat content than hind milk. Also, the higher the volume of breast milk, the lower the milk fat concentration.[92] The lengths of both gestation and lactation affect phospholipid and cholesterol, the lipids that constitute the milk fat globule membrane.[22] In the early stage of lactation, because the milk fat globules are much smaller than in mature milk,[23,24] the total "membrane" lipid level is higher in colostrum and transitional milk than in mature milk. The period of colostrum lasts less than 10 days, but during this short time the higher lipid levels are beneficial in such processes as neonatal cell membrane production needed for growth, brain development, and bile salt synthesis. LC-PUFAs--C20:4n6 and C22:6n3, arachidonic, and docosahexaenoic acids, respectively--are milk fats essential for neonatal growth, brain development, and retinal function.[25,26] These fatty acids are stored in the fetus only in the last trimester of pregnancy; therefore, preterm infants are born with low reserves of LC-PUFA, and their best source for these essential fatty acids is human milk. LC-PUFA levels normally decrease in breast milk during lactation, but in women who have delivered infants before term, the levels remain constant in preterm milk for at least 6 months[27]. Holman and colleagues[28] have reported that levels of LC-PUFA often decline in pregnant and lactating women, suggesting that there is a preferential transfer of these essential fatty acids from mother to fetus or to the newborn through milk, even at the cost of possible depletion of maternal reserves. Depletion of maternal reserves might suggest the need for supplementation of pregnant and lactating women with LC-PUFA. Milk fat content changes dramatically during each feeding[29,30] and fat composition is markedly affected by the maternal diet.[31] Some studies have shown that the mechanism for endogenous synthesis of fatty acids (ie, mainly medium chain fatty acids) seems to become exhausted in women of very high parity[32]; that infants who receive milk with low fat content (ie, less than 3.0 g/dl when the norm is 3.5 to 4.5 g/dl) tend to nurse more frequently and for longer time periods, thereby causing an increase in milk volume[33]; and that there is a strong positive relationship between weight gain during pregnancy and milk fat content.[34]


I also found this in a Medline report:

Breast milk samples were collected from each mother. Milk lipid content and fatty acid composition were determined. RESULTS: Compared with milk from various countries, Congolese women's mature breast milk was low in lipid (28.70 g/L) but rich in 8:0-14:0 FAs (25.97 of total FAs) and in polyunsaturated FAs (PUFAs), particularly n-3 PUFAs (2.39% of total FAs, mainly 18:3 and 22:6). This was associated with the frequent consumption of high-carbohydrate foods (processed cassava roots, wheat bread, doughnuts) known to enhance 8:0-14:0 FA biosynthesis, and with that of foods providing n-6 and n-3 EFAs such as freshwater and saltwater fish, vegetable oil, green leafy vegetables, and high-fat fruit (peanuts, avocado, bushbutter) (end)

The numbers we see...ie 22:6...they identify low long the fatty acid chain is. Numbers that are C3-C14 are short and medium chain fatty acids; C14 and higher are long chain fatty acids.

According to the Medscape info, lactose is the only nutrient that remains relatively constant in amount and is not dependent on diet; both protein and fat change depending on diet, the length of lactation, and what feeding it is during the day.

So, from this, can it be said that carbs in breast milk conditions a baby from birth to use carbs?? I don't know.... Like everything else that deals with our bodies, mother's milk is a complex thing!

I guess I'm now settled in my mind about this. ;-)

KD
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Old 03-17-2004, 08:45 AM   #55
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I am also somewhat casein sensative although I can eat small amounts of cheese, I mostly stick to butter, heavy cream and sour cream. I am interested in your use of cream to make yogurt. How does this vary from sour cream which is also cultured? For years I have eaten sour cream as a yogurt substitute because yogurt really disagrees with me. Too much like whole milk I guess. Aging and culturing seem to reduce the casein problem for me but I can't eat anything that has it added to it like bars and shakes.

I eat mayo everyday usually with sour cream as a salad dressing. I cook mostly in butter and coconut oil as I have found that overdoing olive oil disagrees with me too. My body does best with saturated fat it seems. Chicken skin and beef fat are very good for me. I never cut the fat off of my meats or skim fat from stews or soups. If I eat fish it is only with lots of safflower mayo which along with sunflower oil or walnut oil, is the only vegetable oil that doesn't give me days of intestinal pain when I eat them.

Interesting info on breast milk. I nursed my three children for 15 to 22 months each. I drank lots of Chinese herbal tonics during that time.
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Old 03-17-2004, 09:01 AM   #56
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I'd also like to hear about yogurt and cream. I'm trying to up my fat way up but still get enough protein, since I started exercising (resistance training).

I have heard about people who stall with dairy but I am hard pressed to get the fat in with out it. I think I might start putting heavy whipping cream in my morning coffee and see if that stalls me. I love mayonaisse but I have an egg intolerance. I cannot eat eggs by themselves at all however, I can eat some mayo.

Yesterday, I didn't eat that much because the fat fills me up. I ate a cup of yocheese (from full fat yogurt) and 1/3 of a cup of Grams flax and nut crunchies and I would have been happy not to eat anything else for the day, but I forced myself to eat some shredded beef and sour cream for dinner. I am down 2 pounds, so I think keeping my fat percentange up is key.
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Old 03-17-2004, 09:06 AM   #57
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macademian nuts is loaded in fat and has 22F 2C and 2 P. Six of them will make you feel full for the day
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Old 03-17-2004, 01:04 PM   #58
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Bumping because I think this is interesting and I don't want it to go away!!
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Old 03-17-2004, 01:25 PM   #59
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TVernon and OooLaLa, I looked at my box of cheese fromage starter, which says on the outside of the box it makes a cheese spread, but also sour cream and buttermilk. I looked at the ingredients...it just lists lactic bacteria. On the yogurt starter box, it lists the lactic bacteria...there are five: L casei, B longum, L. bilgaricus, S. Thermophilus, L. acidophilus. These are the same used in Stonyfield yogurt...but I think Stonyfield has one more, but I don't know what it is.

A couple of months ago, I got a book from the library called The Handbook of Fermented Foods. There are chapters on yogurt, kefir, sauerkraut, kimchee, fermentation of meat, miso, and I don't recall what else. The book discussed the different lactic bacteria, and what they did. It appears that the different bacteria do different things, so perhaps the only difference between yogurt and sour cream is what bacteria is used. All of the fermented foods use lactic bacteria, just which one for what purpose?

As far as making yogurt from cream, read Dana's thread about yogurt on the PAP board. I posted my yogurt method there.

According to the Handbook of Fermented Foods, what makes yogurt set up or become firm is heating the milk, which denatures the whey proteins in milk...not the casein. Denatured whey protein is what causes the yogurt to firm up. Yogurt that hasn't been heated above 160 degrees will remain more watery and thin. Heat doesn't affect casein too much. Whey proteins become denatured at temps 160 degrees and higher. So, when I heated the milk to 180 degrees for yogurt, I assumed it was for sterilization...but I now know it is also for making the yogurt set up...by damaging the whey proteins.

But also, I think if we buy pasturized milk in the store to make our yogurt, it has already denatured whey proteins, because of the high heat used for pasturization, right? I say this because when I tried 3 times to make yogurt without heating to 180, all three times the yogurt never set up; it remained watery, which I thought was because of insufficient or bad starter. After reading the Handbook, I realized it was because I didn't heat the milk. After that, I heated the milk again, and the yogurt firmed up again. I redeemed that watery yogurt by making it into custard style yogurt, using gelatin.

The book also said that it is best if yogurt is eaten fresh...within a day or two...not store it for a week.

I discovered the casein thing when I made yogurt from Hood's Carb Countdown low carb milk. I made yogurt with this for both mom and I in 3 consecutive batches. Mom and I both developed a flare-up of our autoimmune skin disorder at the same time. I looked at the ingredients, and apparently there is added casein, in the form of dry milk...to make the milk higher protein and less carbs. Actually, yogurt made with unadulturated whole milk didn't give me the autoimmune response I got with the LC milk, but it does give me sinus grief. It was the low carb milk that did it, and I assume it is the added casein. Hard cheese doesn't seem to cause an autoimmune response in my skin, but perhaps I didn't eat it enough (because I've never been overly fond of cheese) to give it a chance to cause the problem...but, it gives me sinus grief. However, the cheese and yogurt also give me little "white heads" on my upper arms, upper back and chest and jawline, that have some sort of waxy material. They aren't pimples..just little white heads. When I don't eat milk products, excluding cream and butter, I don't get the little pimples. Within a couple of days of eating cheese or whole milk yogurt, I start getting the little white heads...and sinus headaches. I'm editing this to add the autoimmune response is not the little white pimples. It was seborrheic dermatitis, an inflammatory skin disorder that affects the scalp and face primarily, and is an itchy, burning rash.

Speaking of yogurt made with cream...if fat, which is also high calorie, makes one fat, mom should be overweight instead of 20 lbs underweight! She eats a cup of cream yogurt at time, and she doesn't put on weight. IMO, this gives more credence to the FBI idea.

chanou, macadamia nuts are higher in monounsaturated fat, which makes them a better choice than nuts higher in polyunsaturated fat.
Macadamia nut oil has:

Fatty Acids
Oleic- 59.22% (monounsaturated fat)
Palmitoleic- 19.01% (monounsaturated fat)
Linoleic- 2.84% (polyunsaturated fat)
Linolenic- 1% (polyunsaturated fat)

TVernon, you may want to re-think the safflower oil...it is pretty high in polyunsaturated fat:
saturated fat 9%
mono 13%
poly 78% omega 6, trace% omega 3.

KD

Last edited by KastaDiva; 03-17-2004 at 01:37 PM..
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Old 03-17-2004, 07:24 PM   #60
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I know it is but it is the only source of them in my diet and I eat 0 to 2 T. of mayo per day which is bulkier than the oil I am sure. It is almost the only vegetable oil I eat except the occassional olive oil. All the rest is butter, coconut and animal fat, cheese, eggs, walnuts. I have found that the quantity eaten can make a big difference in terms of adverse effects. Mary Enig says we need to take in at least 2 to 3 percent of calories as fat in the form of omega-6 fatty acids and that it may vary from person to person as to what is best for them.

I can't eat anything that has dry milk added to it (also known as milk solids). Sally Fallon says it is high in oxidized cholesterol or maybe it is the casein, but I don't buy anything with them added. The funny thing is that so many health food brands add it to just about everything.

Last edited by TVernon; 03-17-2004 at 07:33 PM..
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