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Old 09-19-2003, 10:51 AM   #31
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Well, I guess that I'm eating over 60 carbs a day if you count it as the label says and I'm still in ketosis. Great for me! It must just affect me....and whole heck of a lot of other people differently.

Last edited by Calgon, take me away; 09-19-2003 at 10:53 AM..
 

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Old 09-19-2003, 11:02 AM   #32
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Here is a link that I like to direct people to whenever they have this yogurt question: http://www.******************/yogurt.html

I've never tried the Blue Bunny yogurt. I just buy plain, full fat yogurt and sweeten it myself with some splenda and maybe some crushed fruit. Sometimes I drain it to make it thicker.
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Old 09-19-2003, 11:02 AM   #33
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I eat the Stoneyfields Full fat yogurt strained (yo-cheese) . Very similar to the Greek yogurt I found in England. One large tub usually lasts me three days, sometimes only two days. In my opinion there is no comparison between that and the Blue Bunny. The full fat Stoneyfields is so thick and creamy when strained. I eat it with strawberries and Torani sf syrup. With regard to the view that the bacteria eats up the carbs, Dr. Atkins did not go aliong with this view and said that all carbs should be counted.

I am on maintenance and have eated yogurt for some time and it has never caused me to gain weight.

Hope this helps.

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Last edited by Texas Joan; 09-19-2003 at 11:03 AM..
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Old 09-19-2003, 12:40 PM   #34
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The milk sugars are definately digested in the process of making yogurt (just as they are in the process of making cheese), and this reduces carbs. Homemade and European yogurts are usually lower in carbs than American yogurts, because the sugars are digested for a longer period of time, hence the yogurt is tarter (and not to the tastes of many Americans, who often like a mild yogurt). If you make your own yogurt, you can get a very low carb product by letting it incubate for 12 hours--or you can get a milder, sweeter, higher carb yogurt if you let it incubate only 4 or 5 hours. You can also use part half and half, which also reduces carbs a bit. If you use cream, you'll get sour cream!

Making yogurt is easy, but do keep everything very clean. Bring 4 cups of organic whole milk to a boil in the microwave (this takes about 8 minutes, but it depends on your microwave). You can add whole milk powder if you like a thicker, slightly higher carb yogurt, but I never bother.

Let the milk cool to 115-120 degrees. While it's cooling, put half a cup of real yogurt into a clean jar, and add half a cup of the cooled milk to that jar. Shake well, then pour the milk/yogurt mixture into the test of the cooled milk (or you can just whisk the yogurt into the cooled milk, but whisk it very well).

Pour the mixture into clean containers, and incubate for 6-10 hours, keeping the mixture at about 110 degrees.

You can incubate in:
1. a yogurt maker (that's all the yogurt maker does for you--you still have to heat and cool the milk and mix in the yogurt, so the yogurt maker isn't really worth the $ in my opinion!)

2. A cooler half filled with warm water

3. Or put the containers in a cooler, and set a hot pad turned to medium on top of it.

4. Or pour the mixture into a warmed-up metal thermos.

However you do it, make sure the yogurt is left alone for the incubation period, since the bacteria don't like to be disturbed while they're hard at work!

Then check to see if it has jelled--it will get even firmer while it sits in the fridge. Refridgerate, and enjoy.

Last edited by tiva; 09-19-2003 at 12:54 PM..
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Old 09-19-2003, 01:48 PM   #35
 
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Transcript from a Yahoo chat:

rorocigio: Is it true that yogurt has less carbs than the label says because the active cultures eat all the lactose?

Dr. Atkins: The labels on yogurt are every bit as troublesome as the numbers indicate.

*****

Separately, Tiva, since you're the scientist , can you tell me why the sugars aren't accurate when the yogurts are evaluated for nutritonal info at a lab for labeling purposes? What I mean is the enzymes are eating the sugar, OK, but when the yogurt is "tested" (whatever they do to food to find the protein/carb/vitamin levels), isn't the level of sugar that's there, what actually IS there -- or does more sugar disappear the longer the yogurt sits in the dairy case at the market? Is there a difference in that process depending on whther it's homemade or commercial (thickening agents)? Just your opinion, of course!
 
Old 09-19-2003, 02:07 PM   #36
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The reason *I* have yogurt, but *not* the BB Lite, is because of this statement by the Atkins Counselor in the sticky at the top of the board.

Quote:
Yogurt regardless of fat content usually has high amounts of carbs. If there is a yogurt that has 5-10 grams of carbs, it can be used as part of on-going weight loss/maintenance.
The Atkins group has said previously that they have no info on the lower carb claim, so they won't endorse that.

Anyhow BB doesn't meet the above criteria so I wouldn't use it (even if I could get it). OTOH, here in this part of Canada we have a yogurt called Yoplait Source, which is sweetened with Splenda and has 9 grams of carbs in a serving. It's low fat, so I always add a tablespoon of cream into it, but it makes an interesting change once in a while.

It's not like it's something I couldn't easily live without, though. Since I'm always making lots of interesting foods, like muffins and cheesecakes and cream cheesicles, there are lots of other equally useful, tasty, interesting things to eat.

Last edited by snowrose; 09-19-2003 at 02:08 PM..
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Old 09-19-2003, 02:24 PM   #37
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Kimmer, I wrote to Mountain High about this question. They said the ingredients on their label reflected the raw ingredients before fermentation. So to me, the question is, how much lactose is used during the fermentation process. The longer the process the less lactose, and the more bitter and tart the yogurt.

But also, method of incubation determines the time required to make yogurt. According to the commercial starter directions, optimal incubation temp is 110-115 degrees. At this temp, yogurt is fully fermented in 4-6 hours. However, if the temp is lower, it will take longer to achieve the same degree of fermentation.

Tiva, I make yogurt from heavy whipping cream all the time. It isn't sour cream. ;-) It is yogurt, and and smells and tastes like yogurt. In Europe, yogurt made from cream is called creme bulgare. I think the culture used determines what kind of end product is made, as I have both commercial culture for making yogurt and for making sour cream. I have 3 different boxes of cultures: yogurt, kefir, and cheese fromage. The cheese fromage package has directions for making cheese, sour cream, and buttermilk. Unfortunately, the kefir and fromage boxes don't list the culture(s) used. The yogurt lists 5 kinds of bacteria--the same kinds in Stonyfield.

Dana, yogurt is SOOOOO easy to make there's really no reason to buy it. ;-) I'd be happy to send you my method if you'll send me an email. Once you've eaten home made, you really won't want commercial anymore. (Well, at least, that's how I look at it.) ;-)
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Old 09-19-2003, 02:33 PM   #38
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I too have been eating yogurt everyday & it does not take me out of Ketosis.

Since we do not have BB I buy the full fat plain yogurt, Dannon or Stoneyfield & mix it w/Splenda & dry koolaid mix, whatever flavor you like. I like lemon. It's not so runny as when you add the DaVinci Syrups & it's much less expensive too.

Those of you who have not read the yogurt thread, you really must go to Century Club and check it out, has great information.
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Old 09-19-2003, 02:42 PM   #39
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Kimmer--Nutritional labs don't test directly for carbs. They usually measure carbs indirectly (ie, by exclusion or by difference--see http://www.expertfoods.com/FAQs/labe...the-values.php), by subtracting off the fats and proteins, and assuming everything else is a carb. Whether the sugars have been digested or not; whether the longer molecules can even be digested in your body or not--none of that is directly measured. Food science isn't an exact science, to put it mildly. So the only way to tell how yogurt will affect you is to try it out.
Personally, I'm not sure what effects the added starches in Blue Bunny might have--but the stuff is too sweet and artificial for my tastes. I'd rather have Brown Cow or homemade.

The one time I tried to make yogurt with cream, I used stoneyfield as a starter, and their added inulin may have led to the somewhat odd results! It tasted good, but it was as thick as sour cream.

Last edited by tiva; 09-19-2003 at 02:50 PM..
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Old 09-19-2003, 06:38 PM   #40
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Tiva, when I use cream to make yogurt, I add extra FOS--fructooliosacchrides (or something like that.) There isn't as much lactose in cream as there is in whole milk, so I give the wee beasties something more to eat so they grow sufficiently. FOS doesn't add to the carb load of yogurt.

In case someone can't find FOS locally, which sometimes is impossible, in fact, I get mine from Puritan's Pride, in capsule form, and I add 2-3 capsules to the starter. You have to "melt" it in a little hot water first, tho.

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Old 09-19-2003, 08:24 PM   #41
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It sounds like you have a lot of experience with yogurt. Would you consider sharing your recipe and methods with all of us, please? You've already mentioned several things that I didn't know.
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Old 09-19-2003, 08:44 PM   #42
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Yes, PLEASE share....I'd love to be able to make some homemade yogurt for myself and the family.
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Old 09-19-2003, 09:04 PM   #43
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Well, here's how I make yogurt and I think it is pretty darn easy and you don't need an expensive yogurt maker.

First fill a dutch oven about half way with water and place a large bowl that fits snug on top and fill the bowl with one gallon of whole milk (this is my version of a make-shift double boiler....nice and cheap!). Put the stove on medium heat for about 50-55 minutes or until temperature of milk reaches 200 degrees Fahrenheit. Place bowl in sink of very cold water and take a slotted spoon and skim the thick layer that formed off the top. At this point I take a wisk and stir until the temp goes down to about 115 degrees Fahrenheit....takes less than 5 minutes. At this point mix in a half a cup of commercial full fat yogurt like Stoneyfield or Dannon with a small amount of the warm milk and then add back into the rest of the milk. Mix well. I take a ladel and funnel and fill four quart canning jars to the brim and put the lids on tightly. I put these jars on a heating pad set to low in a cake pan (helps to keep the heating pad in place) and wrap with a few towels and leave alone for 8 hours. After 8 hours I put my 4 jars in the fridge and several hours later I have wonderful homemade yogurt that tastes even better than store bought. You can line a strainer that sits on a bowl with paper towels and dump a jar of yogurt in it and cover with plastic wrap. Keep in the fridge and the next day you will have lovely yogurt cheese! This stuff is the bomb! Have fun!

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Last edited by metroames; 09-19-2003 at 09:06 PM..
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Old 09-19-2003, 09:24 PM   #44
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I've made it myself, about six different methods/recipes, and I finally gave up. The flavor was usually ok but the consistency was never smooth and creamy. Do you guys get yours smooth and creamy? Without being soupy and lumpy?

KD - I have stevia with FOS (which is like 99% FOS and 1% stevia). I wonder if that could be added?
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Old 09-19-2003, 09:48 PM   #45
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The only time mine turned out lumpy and soupy was when I tried to transfer it to a different container while it was still warm. Otherwise mine has always comes out smooth and creamy and always thick. The best thing to do is to put it in the fridge as soon as it is done incubating, because it then sets up as it cools. I've also heard you can get funky yogurt if you use a starter that has additives in it (i.e. food startch, pectin, etc). Also the less fat in the milk the more soupy it will be. Make sure to get full fat made only with whole milk and cultures. Hope this helps.

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Old 09-19-2003, 11:22 PM   #46
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i made soy yogurt out of slender soy -- so its definitely low carb! but its also really tart!



hey KD, i'm also really interested in this FOS thing. i've seen it in stevia products. what does it do??
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Old 09-20-2003, 12:03 AM   #47
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This sounds confusing and looks confusing when you read this here. But really it isn't. Once you do it, you see how easy it is. In simple terms:

Heat milk/cream to 180 degrees to sterilize.

Cool rapidly in sink of cold water to 110-115 degrees-- add ice to keep water cold. Stir sterilized milk/cream to equalize the temp.

Take out about a cup of the cooled milk, and stir in 1-3 tbs of culture per quart of milk.

Pour that back in to the cooled milk/cream and stir thoroughly to evenly distribute culture, but try not to incorporate too much oxygen.

Pour into clean glass jars, cover, and incubate, keeping temperature between 110-115. A thermometer is a must, as far as I'm concerned.
When you have enough culture, the yogurt is done in 4-6-8 hours, depending on how sharp you want the end product. The longer it incubates, the more bitter and sharp it becomes. The yogurt continues to incubate in the fridge until the temp gets too low. The yogurt firms up more after a few hours of refrigeration.

I'm going to cut and paste what I've sent to others. ;-)

I make my yogurt in the oven, only I use a 60 watt bulb, that is screwed into a light socket that plugs into an extension cord, which is plugged into one of those timers you can set that turns things on and off. I found that a 60 watt bulb keeps my oven at 112 degrees. My oven light wasn't adequate as a heat source. (I originally used a 75 watt, but when I got my new stove, 75 kept the interior too warm.) Also, I have a Yogurmet yogurt thermometer which has the lukewarm range in green (110-115 degrees), but I think any cooking thermometer would be sufficient.

Since I first wrote this, I found a light socket that has a rheo-stat thing, that I can turn the brightness up or down to regulate heat, as needed. So, the light bulb is screwed into the rheo-stat socket, which is plugged into the extention cord, etc.

In the emails I sent to people requesting my method, I included a picture of the "equipment" I use.

I usually make about 3 quarts of yogurt at a time. 1/2 gallon heavy cream, about a pint of whole milk, and water. When I make yogurt, I try to protect it from direct light at all times. I heat the mixture to 180 degrees, then place it in a sink of cold water, stirring constantly, to rapidly cool it down to lukewarm. I presume the function of heating it to 180 is to sterilize it so pure probiotic cultures can grow. (I now use just all cream diluted with water for my yogurt, and my DH's, I use cream with whole milk.)

I combine about a cup of the "sterilized" yogurt with either a commercially available starter product or plain yogurt with active cultures...either what I previously made or store bought. I then mix the starter with the yogurt and pour it into a light proof container to incubate. I usually let it go between 6-8 hours. I discovered however that it still continues to incubate in the fridge until it cools down enough to stop the bacteria from growing, which I would guess adds about another hour to the incubation time. I suppose the larger the container, the slower it cools in the fridge, so if someone made only a quart, it might not incubate as much before it cools in the fridge.

Now for the Yoplait Custard style. I use gelatin. I read the label on the custard style yogurt, and it lists gelatin as one of the ingredients. I make homemade jello using splenda sweetened Davinci syrups and koolaid of like flavor. After the yogurt is made and cooled, I mix about 1-2 cups more yogurt than jello....3 cups jello to 4-5 cups yogurt, depending on how firm you want the finished product. You may also have to add a little extra sweetener to the finished product...depending on how sweet your tooth is. My favorite flavors are french vanilla, black cherry, and strawberry.

It takes overnight for the custard style to set up.

Another reason I wanted to "extend" the yogurt was because of all the fat in cream (not that I'm particularly afraid of the fat content, but some people are.) And, making yogurt with cream is more expensive, so again, mixing it with gelatin cuts the cost without affecting flavor, if you choose to eat it plain. However, once you taste yogurt made with cream....you'll never want to go back to milk yogurt. Cream yogurt is like eating dessert. You'll have to experiment with the ratio of jello to yogurt, to find what you like best.

When making homemade jello, I usually make 10 cups at a time. Here is my method:

In a microwave safe, 12 cup glass bowl, I put in 2 cups cold water and sprinkle in 10 teaspoons of gelatin (5 packets of Knox). I stir that so it gets thoroughly wet. It then goes into the microwave for about 6 minutes, or until it boils for about 30+ seconds. After it has boiled, I whisk it again just to make sure the gelatin is thoroughly dissolved. I pour in 2 more cups cold water, 1 1/2 cups davinci syrup and packet of koolaid, stirring to dissolve the koolaid. Then finish adding water to total 10 cups.

I tried just pouring boiling water over the gelatin, but it gelled up into clumps that were next to impossible to break up and dissolve. And when it set up into jello, there was a gritty scum of undissolved gelatin lining the bottom of the bowl, and water separated out of the jello. Mixing the gelatin in cold water and then boiling it on the stove only resulted in burnt gelatin and a nasty mess to clean up. Microwaving it works perfectly.

One other thought...sometimes my yogurt doesn't fully set up and stays too liquid, but this hasn't happened after my first few batches of yogurt. In that case, I use it for protein drinks or making other flavored yogurt based drinks. As long as I can smell that distinct yogurt odor, I know there are good cultures, despite the liquid state.

I forgot to mention a couple of things about the light protected thing....I use a clear plastic Anchor Hocking or Rubbermaid "canister" type thing for incubation and storing, so I found a cardboard box that it fits into closely. I covered my bottom rack with aluminum foil to help control the light, but with a 75 watt bulb, it radiates off the sides and top of the oven, so the oven interior was very lighted. The cardboard box did the trick for keeping out the light. Light can destroy some nutrients in milk products. That is why I try to protect the yogurt from direct light while making it.

I buy bulk beef gelatin from Azure Farms. 5# bag is $21. You can make an awful lot of gelatin with 5 pounds. A big box of Knox gelatin is around $7. Figuring out how much it would cost for 5 pounds of Knox shows how expensive the Knox route is. Azure has a web site where you can order stuff. They also have the Yogourmet products....commercial starters and thermometer. www.azurestandard.com

This is something I've mulled over...what would happen if one used less water, but increase the amount of yogurt? I mean, use enough gelatin for maybe 2 cups of jello, use less water so the jello firms up stiffer, and then use more yogurt. Would that still give the right texture? Would this allow one to add fresh fruit, if they can tolerate fruit? I still haven't tried this, so don't know how it'd work.


I now use quart jars instead of the bigger plastic containers. I really didn't see much difference in processing, etc. The quart jars are more convenient to use as far as taking it out of the fridge.

All this might sound too confusing, but it really isn't once you've done a batch of yogurt. You may have in your house a place, such as on your hot water tank, or something that would be perfect for incubation. I don't, so the oven is a good place for me. Some people incubate their yogurt for longer periods, but I find that it make the yogurt more sour and bitter for my taste. You need to figure out for yourself what you prefer. 6 hours is usually all it takes for my yogurt to get done. It firms up even more after it's cooled in the fridge.

Some people put extra dry milk in the yogurt supposedly to increase the protein. I've never done that. And, after reading what Sally Fallon said about dried milk proteins, I won't use dry milk at any time. ;-)

Some of the things that could cause yogurt failure: milk too warm when adding starter-- >115 degrees, or too cool (and I don't know what temp would be too cool since I always use a thermometer and keep it at 110-115), incubation temp too high or too low; bad starter; not enough starter; not enough "food" to sustain the cultures. Maybe someone else can add to this list.

My original yogurt incubator was an ice chest. I found instructions for converting a small ice chest into a yogurt maker, using a 15 watt lightbulb for the heat source. I made a few batches using that before I decided I could do the same thing in my oven, and I could make bigger batches.

Everyone develops their own method of making yogurt, and everyone has their own degree of tartness, etc. I hope other people add their method of making yogurt, too, along with Metroames and me. ;-)

edited to add about stevia with FOS. I've never used that particular stuff, even tho I have some, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. The stevia might make the yogurt too sweet, tho, for other applications. FOS by itself doesn't add much sweet taste, if at all.

KD

Last edited by KastaDiva; 09-20-2003 at 12:07 AM..
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Old 09-20-2003, 01:42 AM   #48
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ummm KD,....its not the stevia specifically i'm asking about....i dont even know what FOS is or does!!!
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Old 09-20-2003, 04:26 AM   #49
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argo, oops! I misunderstood what you were asking!

Here are some web sites about FOS (fructooligosaccharides):

http://www.naturalhealthnotebook.com...ements/FOS.htm

FOS (Fructooligosaccharides)

FOS (also known as inulin) is a natural plant fiber substance from the roots of inula (elecampane)

FOS is often included in probiotic formulas. It provides a food for beneficial bacteria such as L. acidophilus or B. longum.


http://members.aol.com/althealth/jafa.html

http://www.medicinalfoodnews.com/vol...ue6/fructo.htm

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/66/6/2682


This is from the Specific Carb Diet--Breaking the Vicious Cycle web site:
http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q...p-f=ISO-8859-1


This sounds very close to my method of making yogurt:
http://www.scd.freeuk.com/knowlege_b...rt_in_bulk.htm

Yoghurt - Making it in Bulk

Christopher Steiner on Healing Crow writes -
I have gone through all the ways of making yogurt- yogurmet maker, heating pad in a cooler, buffered crockpot, Nesco slow cooker, etc etc, and find the oven method the most efficient way to produce yogurt in the "industrial" quantities I prefer, so that I only make it once a week or less. I like to eat around a quart a day or more!

I use either empty Dannon yogurt containers (since I use regular Dannon plain yogurt as starter) and/or large plastic containers, those translucent plastic containers with tops, that one can buy in various sizes in the supermarket. I do put the tops on, notwithstanding Harry at Customprobiotics suggesting that one not have the tops on to minimize the collection of water on the top... I might try the latter approach. I use no water (for the incubation that is). I simply place the containers in the oven and let the oven air heat/maintain the milk temperature. One could of course incubate the milk/yogurt for more than 24 h to take into account the several hours it probably takes to heat up the room temperature milk/starter mix to the proper incubation temp.

I realize that in an oven, the temperature may vary from the top to the bottom, but I measure it with a couple different thermometers and try for around 105 F or so because I tend to use about twice the recommended amount of starter for a given quantity of milk, I figure that this will create SCD-legal yogurt in less than 24 h, but that it may take longer than 24 h for the milk in the containers to warm up to the oven temperature from the room temp that the cooled milk and yogurt starter is mixed to... so I figure 24 hr averages out. Just my own tried and true method.

The one thing one has to be careful with using the oven temp is the fact that there is no thermostat to regulate heat, but since the oven is so big, temp won't change that fast (certainly not within the milk) either. I wouldn't do the oven method unless one was supervising a little bit, but generally you can get the temp. to stabilize pretty good and just leave it to itself for hours at a time, periodically checking on it every 8 h or so. One can adjust the oven temp using different strengths of light bulbs and cracking the oven door open various amounts or not at all. I find a 60 or 75 watt bulb with a partially propped open oven does the job for me. For some the standard 40 watt bulb or whatever that's in an oven, with a closed door, may yield a 105 F oven.

As for heating large quantities of milk at a time, I use two very large stock pots, one a little smaller than the other, the outer one filled with water i.e. I create a double boiler, which prevents the milk boiling over and also prevents the milk container from scorching (which is hard to clean), and assures even heating of the milk. You can do the same with two small pots.

Hope this helps. I have made as little as half a quart or as much as 15 quarts of yogurt at a time this way. (end)



Here is an interesting opposing point of view about using FOS in supplement form and in yogurt as a supplement:
http://www.scd.freeuk.com/knowlege_b...accharides.htm


http://www.scd.freeuk.com/knowlege_b...y_produced.htm
The SCD Knowledge Base

Yoghurt - Continued Fermentation of Commercially Produced

In answer to a question from a list-member about the possibility of continuing the fermentation of commercial yoghurt at home, in order to make it SCD legal,

Elaine writes:
I do not think further fermenting of commercial yoghurt is the answer. Don't forget that the original lactose content of commercial yoghurt is twice that of ordinary milk because of the added milk solids. Because of that, the culture (critters) will change lactose to lactic acid lowering the pH to about 4.0 and then stop working (critter enzymes cannot work at so low a pH) and you are still left with considerable lactose. Additional fermentation time will not change the original "sin" of adding additional milk solids. (end)

I don't know how correct the info is from the Specific Carb Diet web site, since I've never really researched this particular topic of yogurt, fermentation, etc. The amount of FOS I use in my yogurt is meant only for the yogurt culture for growth. I don't think there is enough to affect the intestinal flora.

I guess this is probably more than you wanted to know about FOS! ;-)

KD
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Old 09-20-2003, 05:26 AM   #50
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Make your own

In Oz there are 3 million greeks, most in Melbourne, they all make their own, or their granma does! Russians too. But it is a savory, they look horrified at the idea of adding sugar. The outflow of the back of the frideg is supposed to be right making tempç
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Old 09-20-2003, 05:37 AM   #51
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Thanks to those sharing recipes and tips. There's a lot of great information. Keep it coming!

Oh oh, KastaDiva, what is the reason you don't use powdered milk? I've been having great success using that (good news) so guess it's time to find out (bad news). Drats!

The idea from the Century board of putting the yogurt in a pre-warmed (with hot water) gallon picnic thermos and then wrapping it in a blanket works very well, too.
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Old 09-20-2003, 05:49 AM   #52
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I was at a five week stall and added the yogurt and started losing again. I buy the Dannon full fat and drain the whey off over night in the fridge, and mix in a little of the BB. Makes it nice and creamy and more filling. I don't like the BB by itself.
I also use the drained yogurt to cook with and as sour cream. Very good.
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Old 09-20-2003, 01:27 PM   #53
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Sunrae, I had to search and search until I found the info again! Finally, on the Weston Price web site:

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/ploy.html (bottom 3rd of article, under Another Look at Milk)

Non-fat dried milk is added to 1% and 2% milk. Unlike the cholesterol in fresh milk, which plays a variety of health promoting roles, the cholesterol in nonfat dried milk is oxidized and it is this rancid cholesterol that promotes heart disease. Like all spray dried products, non-fat dried milk has a high nitrite content. Non-fat dried milk and sweetened condensed milk are the principal dairy products in third world countries; use of ultra high temperature pasteurized milk is widespread in Europe. (end)

Actually, this doesn't address the protein issue, but more the dried milk issue. But somewhere, and I think it must be in Sally Fallon's book, Nourishing Traditions, it says to avoid the use of protein isolate powders (any kind of protein powder) because the process of making the protein isolate damages the protein.

I found here:

http://www.westonaprice.org/nutritio...y_dangers.html

9) Avoid products containing protein powders.

Edited to add this:

http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/energybars.html

"CHEAP PROTEIN

The real boost for the bar business came with the advent of cheap soy and whey proteins that could be added to make a "high-protein" bar. Barry Sears' BioZone "Programmed Nutrition" bars were among the first of these, with several imitators following, including Balance Bars ("The Complete Nutritional Food Bar") and ZonePerfect Bars ("All Natural Nutrition Bars").

But there is nothing natural about the protein used in today's energy bars. Soy protein comes with an initial burden of phytic acid, enzyme inhibitors and isoflavones. More toxins are formed during high-temperature chemical processing, including nitrates, lysinalanine and MSG. Soy protein must be processed at very high temperatures to reduce levels of phytic acid and enzyme inhibitors, a process that over-denatures many of the proteins in soy, especially lysine, making them unavailable to the body.

Whey protein is inherently fragile and must be processed at low temperatures or its qualities as a protein are destroyed. That is why casein rather than whey protein is used in animal chow. When cheese, butter and cream were made on the farm, the whey and skim milk were given to the pigs and chickens. But today these products are made in factories far from the farms where they originated, so the industry has a "whey problem," solved by drying the skim milk and whey at high temperatures and putting the powders into energy drinks, body building powders and high-protein bars."

To change the topic slightly, what do you-all do with the whey from the yogurt when you make yo-cheese? In Nourishing Traditions, there is a section on fermenting milk, and what and how to use the whey and other fermented milk products. Whey is very nutritious, and is used to preserve vegetables, by fermentation. And, old world countries use the whey in drinks...not alchoholic drinks, btw.

She lists a method for making yogurt, and it's similar to my basic method.

dannajo, what exactly do you mean that you use drained yogurt to cook with? Do you heat it up and put it in hot foods? If so, you are killing the probiotic cultures. Fermented milk products need to be used in cold or lukewarm foods.

KD

Last edited by KastaDiva; 09-20-2003 at 01:40 PM..
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Old 09-20-2003, 04:58 PM   #54
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Well actually I didn't mean to type that, just that I use it like sour cream. Had a brain cramp. I don't use the whey for anything because I'm not sure how to use it. I'd like to know what to do with it also.
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Old 09-20-2003, 08:25 PM   #55
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Sunrae, I found the info in Nourishing Traditions, page 29, paraphrased: "Just as fats and carbs can be devitalized by processing and refining, protein is also devitalized, etc. Protein isolates are mostly achieved by high temp processes that over-denatures them to the extent they become worthless, while causing nitrates and other carcinogens." References are:
Wallace, GM Journal of the Science of Foood and Agriculture, Oct, 1971, 22:526-35; and Rackis, JJ, et al, Qualitative Plant Foods in Human Nutrition, 1985, 35:225

In the info section under Cultured Dairy Products, paraphrased: "Fermented milk results in many beneficial changes, such as the breakdown of casein, which is one of milk's most difficult protein to digest. Fermentation also restores enzymes destroyed in the pasteurization process, which then also helps the body to absorb calcium and other minerals. The restored lactase helps lactose intolerant people to be able to digest fermented milk products. Vit B and C content is higher because of fermentation. Research has shown that fermented milk products lowers cholesterol and protects against bone loss. Fermented milk products provide beneficial bacteria and lactic acid to the digestive tract. Fermented milk products help protect from infectious diseases. ...... Whey is necessary to making fermented vegetables, chutneys, beverages and grain dishes. (end)

Fallon then gives methods for making Piima starter, Piima milk, cultured butter and buttermilk, crene fraiche, piima cream, whole milk buttermilk, yogurt, kefir, and whey and cream cheese.

There is next a whole section on the fermentation of fruits and vegetables, using whey. Fermentation was the way to preserve fruits and vegetables before canning and freezing was employed.

DH has some extra cukes that I'm going to try fermenting them with whey. The processing time is 3 days.

Nourishing Traditions is really an interesting book. I recommend it to everyone.

I tried doing an internet search on whey, and 99% of the hits are for whey protein powder or supplements! I was hoping to come up with info about whey itself, and how it can be used.

I did find one interesting thing about whey....a protein in whey is the precursor to glutathione, which is a power antioxidant. Glutathione is a very important amino acid. For that reason alone, we need to make sure we ingest whey and not just throw it away.

Use whey to make ricotta cheese:
http://fiascofarm.com/dairy/ricotta.html


http://www.rejoiceinlife.com/kefir/riln14.php
How to Culture Dairy, Grains, Nuts, Seeds, Vegetables and Beverages Using Kefir Grains


KD

Last edited by KastaDiva; 09-20-2003 at 08:55 PM..
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Old 09-20-2003, 09:21 PM   #56
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KastaDiva, you went to an incredible amount of trouble to answer my questions. Thank you for all your efforts. I read your snippets from the articles with interest and then went to the sites and looked around as well. Interesting reading on all.

I had to laugh at how proud I was at my yogurt making. I've been eating the "rancid cholesterol" and pouring the nutritious part -- the whey--down the drain. So much for a discriminating pallat, eh? I must be more like Mikey; I eat anything.

I'm glad that matter came to light, though. Once again you've saved the day. I'll straighten up my act and go back to using whole milk and cream. Keep us posted on your cuke experiment. That sounds interesting, too.
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Old 09-20-2003, 10:28 PM   #57
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I have read that the whey is protein rich and considered using it in protein shakes. The gals on the yogurt challenge thread said it's higher in carb than the yogurt and that they throw it away for that reason. If I ever do get to making it correctly, I might use the whey in smoothies for my daughter.

You guys got me interested in trying a batch again. I'm re-trying Dana Carpender's recipe. I really want to get this one to work since it's no cooking/no cooling. I think I already let it get too hot accidentally. I do know that that will kill the bacteria. Also, don't open, stir or generally mess with it while it's doing it's thing. And add sweeteners/flavorings after it's done for best results, not at the beginning. There are a lot of good websites on making yogurt out there.

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Old 09-20-2003, 11:31 PM   #58
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Kimmer- honestly I really couldn't care less what someone else says, even the "Atkins company" or Atkins himself before he passed away/etc. Everything they/he says is not GOSPEL and everyone is different. I hope this doesn't come across as harsh as that is NOT how I intend it and it's hard with just typed words. I'm just saying that I have tried it both ways- the same amount of carbs if I was counting the yogurt as the pkg says in other low glycemic green veggies that I eat all the time otherwise (just upped the amount) and I stalled and/or gained weight... where as with the yogurt as those carbs I did NOT.
Plain and simple, regardless of what anyone has said about it, for ME.... all those carbs don't count. It may not be the same way for everyone though... just as I can't eat a lot of things others can get away with eating that is totally legal even on Atkins induction- because they stall me or make me gain weight.

Dana, you are very welcome. There is something else that I was thinking about that I wanted to mention. I'm not sure of the "technical" stuff as I said and so maybe this isn't even possible- I don't know. But I had stopped eating cheese hardly ever for awhile there. Not any real reason- just started getting sick of it and only had a little grated on a salad occasionally or a little grated on veggies occasionally (where as in the beginning I was eating 2-3oz of cheese per day). Anyway, after I stopped eating it for awhile- then I noticed on the occasional days that I DID eat more cheese- it was slowing down my weightloss or stalling me. Nothing else different- just more cheese that day. It didn't stop me from eating it occasionally- if I wanted it, I ate it... but it was something I noticed.
Now something else I have noticed... ever since I started eating the yogurt I have had more days in the past couple of weeks where I WANTED to eat more cheese- and therefore did. It hasn't caused me to stall in the past nor gain weight recently. I wonder if I was having some kind of "issue" with cheese before and somehow the yogurt is helping that? Not sure.... just can't figure out what else would have changed to suddenly make it "okay" with my body for me to have more cheese again?
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Old 09-21-2003, 01:13 AM   #59
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Sunrae, I'm glad I could help. ;-) Isn't daily life just a succession of learning experiences?

SimpleHarmony, thank you for the nice compliment! ;-)

I hopped over to the CC and read the yogurt thread. I found it interesting. As I mentioned earlier, I've never really researched yogurt and fermentation, and so didn't know there are 12.6 grams of carbs in a cup of whey.

Yet, it is kind of relative, because so little is used at a time. For example, in Nourishing Traditions, there is a snippet of info that says a tablespoon of whey 3 times daily will "feed the stomach glands, and they will work well again;" and "one tablespoon of whey in a little water will help digestion;" and, "when age wants to bend your back, take whey;" and, "one tablespoon in water will keep joints movable and ligaments elastic."

Four tablespoons of whey is used to ferment a "batch" of fruit or vegetables.

Whey is full of minerals. I remember seeing a product called Capra Goat Whey Minerals (or something like that.)

In Iceland, whey is allowed to "re-ferment," and it is called syra. Syra is then diluted in water and drunk, or is used to preserve, and marinate, foods. Syra is the most popular beverage in Iceland for centuries, and has replaced ale because grains aren't grown in Iceland. Whey is collected and stored in a large barrel in a pantry; over a period of time, a "blanket" forms over the top, and is called jastur, and in English, that means yeast. So, during the fermentation process, yeast grows on top of the whey in the barrel.

A lot of the recipes in Nourishing Traditions uses whey. But, on the other hand, the recipes in NT aren't necessarily low carb, either. ;-)

KD
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Old 09-21-2003, 08:40 AM   #60
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So if whey has that many carbs... what is the carb count of the yogurt cheese (whey is drained off in large part?).

I want the carb count without the "exception principle" applied to it.
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