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Old 08-05-2013, 03:29 PM   #241
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I will say that I don't buy the first part of Seth's notion that low carb food is unfamiliar. What I think happens, at least with me, is over time you find ways to keep making it tastier. You find recipes. You start making low carb pizza and low carb chocolate treats. Or, avocado bacon dip!
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:38 PM   #242
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KT--I really do believe that most diets have at least some component of these theories. For example, the people who do Fuhrman style eating are eating low reward diets and they lose a ton of weight. Folks often start off successful on most diets until they become bored (low reward) or start pleasure seeking in a way that leads them away from low reward. I do believe that for some folks, reducing insulin is key. I agree that I stopped losing weight on a lowcarb diet once I started making LC treats. I lost a ton of weight doing ******* --but that was essentially a lowreward diet. I think whether you eat a lot of fat to the exclusion of other things (jimmy moore) a lot of protein to the exclusion of other things (*******/dukan diet) or a lot of starch without protein or fat (tater hack/mcDougals) you are eating low reward foods. Maybe it is an issue of continuing to find ways to have low reward, switching when necessary.

I know the issue that Seth talks about "ditto foods" is a problem for me. I get attached to certain tastes and want to replicate them. I want to have the same dinner over and over, strengthening that association. His idea of "crazy spicing" has merit, but I haven't been able to do it much.

I keep wanting to try a bland and flavorless diet but I am recognizing my resistance to giving up high reward! This is something I am taking seriously! I can definitely swallow oil between meals, but some of you have been way more successful than I in having repeated boring meals.
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:51 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunday View Post
I am back down the 2 lbs that I gained plus a bit. I may have been able to eat 750 yesterday, I followed Marika's advice and added Mac Nuts and one more shot of oil around 7:00 pm. I think I have found the magic spot for me. 3 separate oil tastings and completely an hour before meal, with the last being about an hour after the meal.

I started with a big, nice lunch today, so I think I will be able to get 1200 in.

I find it very interesting that the oil causes a 2 day delay for me. I started the oil yesterday and today I am finally feeling some hunger from the oil-free day on Sat. Does anyone else have this? I fasted 18 hours today, but will try and go back to 14 hours from here on out.

Congrats to Cici for the innovative method! It is so much fun when you have friends to drink oil with.
Yay to Marika! Isn't this the best?
Ah, I forgot to respond to this. I am sometimes scanning during the work day.

Anyway, I think it makes sense about the two day delay. Seth Roberts says it usually (I think he said usually) takes a few days for the effect to kick in. So, it would make sense that the effect lingers upon stopping as well.

Fast 18 hours, good grief you are tough!

Thank you so much for joining the thread! Yes, it helps soooo much to have buddies to toast with!

Here's to you ladies! :clink:
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:56 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by ouizoid View Post
KT--I really do believe that most diets have at least some component of these theories. For example, the people who do Fuhrman style eating are eating low reward diets and they lose a ton of weight. Folks often start off successful on most diets until they become bored (low reward) or start pleasure seeking in a way that leads them away from low reward. I do believe that for some folks, reducing insulin is key. I agree that I stopped losing weight on a lowcarb diet once I started making LC treats. I lost a ton of weight doing ******* --but that was essentially a lowreward diet. I think whether you eat a lot of fat to the exclusion of other things (jimmy moore) a lot of protein to the exclusion of other things (*******/dukan diet) or a lot of starch without protein or fat (tater hack/mcDougals) you are eating low reward foods. Maybe it is an issue of continuing to find ways to have low reward, switching when necessary.

I know the issue that Seth talks about "ditto foods" is a problem for me. I get attached to certain tastes and want to replicate them. I want to have the same dinner over and over, strengthening that association. His idea of "crazy spicing" has merit, but I haven't been able to do it much.

I keep wanting to try a bland and flavorless diet but I am recognizing my resistance to giving up high reward! This is something I am taking seriously! I can definitely swallow oil between meals, but some of you have been way more successful than I in having repeated boring meals.
Yes, indeed. Very good points!

I remember following Jimmy Moore, I just did not remember that he was taking that much fish oil.

RE: giving up high reward - I am doing surprisingly well. I need something sometimes, whether it is some Kale Krunch or butter on vegetables. I don't have to have the Kale Krunch everyday now. Maybe it is the MCT oil that is giving me strength. I'm not sure. I definitely did not go 100% bland on day one!

It seems to me that you are doing just great. Furman style eating is not easy!!!
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:09 PM   #245
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From Mark's Daily Apple today:

Hi Mark,

What’s your take on liquid coconut oil (such as NuCo)? What do they do to the coconut oil so that it remains a liquid at room temperature?

Thanks for any insights you may provide.

Suzanne

Coconut oils are liquidized by removing the long chain fatty acids and leaving the medium chain triglycerides. The removal process is entirely physical and uses no chemicals or solvents. No mutant fats are created, and the medium chain triglycerides remain intact and unaffected. This is similar to MCT oil, which is usually made from a combination of coconut and palm kernel oils. MCTs have a number of benefits:
•They require less bile acid to digest, so people with impaired fat digestion can digest them more easily than longer-chained fats. MCTs actually increase the ability of a person to oxidize longer chained fats, too, making them especially useful for improving an impaired fat digestion (as well as burning body fat).
•They are converted readily into ketones regardless of the carbohydrate content of the diet, so people on a ketogenic diet can use MCTs to generate ketone bodies without having to eliminate most of their plant foods. If you know someone – a grandparent, perhaps – who could probably use some ketones in their lives for the cognitive benefits, it’s a lot easier to slip some MCTs into their morning coffee than it is to get them to switch to a ketogenic diet.
•They increase the metabolic rate, an effect that persists for about a week after ingestion.
•They seem to have beneficial effects on lipid and metabolic profiles. For instance, in men with high triglycerides, MCT-feeding improves blood lipids and reduces abdominal and overall body fat, and in type 2 diabetics, MCTs improve insulin sensitivity.

If there’s anything to worry about here, it’d be that since MCTs always naturally occur in the presence of other, longer-chained fatty acids and never in isolation, the doses found in these refined oils may be supraphysiological with undesirable or untoward metabolic effects. There’s the oft-reported intestinal upset and subsequent diarrhea that comes with large doses of medium chain triglycerides, but that’s also been reported with straight coconut oil and usually clears up after several days of eating it. While I doubt there’s anything else serious enough to worry about, especially with the proven benefits, it’s something to keep in mind. Myself, I prefer coconut oil to MCT oil.
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:20 PM   #246
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Thanks KT, you know I have noticed I feel sharper on the job when taking MCTs. I even think it helps with my focus which can be a mess when I am trying to do 10 different things!

Yes, I have had a bit of worries about the digestive process because I notice that it can be quite sudden with the addition of MCT oil. Oh well, the things we do for health.
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:56 PM   #247
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I have to start up several pieces of work that will extend into the next few months. I like this work when I get going, but starting it can be difficult.


I am going to play this game to see how much of it I can get done tomorrow. It is Seth Robert's Magic Dots game for productivity. I can't post the link, of course

Magic Dots: Quasi-Reinforcement Helps Get Things Done

Interesting...the pic is a box with an x through the middle is all. The ten marks are four dots, four lines to connect the dots into a box, and two lines through the middle to make the x through the box.



- - - - --


Magic Dots: Quasi-Reinforcement Helps Get Things Done




This photo illustrates a method I have used for many years to get work done, usually writing. Every six minutes of work, I make a dot or line. One hour = 10 marks = a box (counting method from Exploratory Data Analysis). I use a stopwatch. I make a mark when I am more than halfway to the goal. If I glance at the clock and it says 4 minutes (more than halfway to 6 minutes), I make a mark. If I glance at the clock and it says 10 minutes (more than halfway to 12 minutes from 6 minutes), I make a mark. I only zero the clock when I take a break. I use one piece of paper per day.

I devised this. It is based on an effect discovered by Allen Neuringer and Shin-Ho Chung called quasi-reinforcement. Neuringer and Chung studied pigeons. They found that if you give a pigeon food every 500 times it pecks a key, it will peck the key slowly (say, 2 pecks/minute). If you give the pigeon a brief flash of light every 20 pecks — a marker that shows it is doing the right thing to get food — it will peck much faster (say, 4 pecks/minute). The flashes of light are quasi-reinforcement, said Neuringer and Chung — they have some but not all of the properties of ordinary reinforcement, such as food. By themselves, the flashes of light don’t interest the pigeon. It won’t peck a key to get them. The amazing thing about this effect is that it doubles how hard the pigeon works without raising its salary.

I noticed improvement — it was easier to write — within about 20 minutes the first time I tried this. I chose six minutes as the unit because shorter times were more distracting and longer times less effective.

I told Gary Wolf about the dots method two years ago and he’s been using it ever since. He says it is good for getting started on something he needs to write. After he gets going, he stops doing it. He uses it as an example of the value of self-tracking. I too find that after I get going on something, I need it less. If I stop, however, I drift backwards toward doing less productive stuff or nothing.

Gary asked me about this a month ago and I started doing it again (instead of percentile feedback). I noticed something I had never noticed before, which was that the system lifted my whole energy level and gave me a “can’t wait to get started” feeling in the morning. This too made it easier to get stuff done. It reminded me of some rat research I’d done. Put a rat in a Skinner box and it will explore for a while. If it doesn’t get any food, after a while (10 minutes?) it will stop exploring and curl up in the middle of the box. However, if I give the rat a pellet of food at random times (at the rate of one pellet/minute), it will keep exploring the box indefinitely. Learning psychologists have emphasized that when you reward an action, you make it more likely. The rat experiment I just described suggests a second effect: when you give reward — at least, when reward is rare — you make all actions more likely. You increase exploration, not just the rewarded response. When I was a young professor I went to a two-week neuroscience program at Dartmouth. It was all lectures. The other attendees were graduate students. I had little in common with them. There was little to do in the town, besides eat Ben & Jerry’s. The next town was 8 miles away. I couldn’t find anything I enjoyed doing. After a week, I had trouble getting out of bed, like the rat curled up in the middle of the Skinner box. A psychiatrist might have said I had major depression. I flew home and was fine.
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:57 AM   #248
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I am still paying for the steak dinner Sat. night. I am down .4 from yesterday but still not back to what I was on Sat. morning. Still glad to see a drop from yesterday.

KT, the quasi reinforcement game is very interesting. Hope it gives you the extra energy and incentive to get those works done more easily!

Have a great day!
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:34 AM   #249
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Lots of interesting posts above. Will try to catch up later.

Up .8 lb for no reason or rhyme. Maybe hormonal water retention.

Have a great day oil drinking/flavorless food eating ladies
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:36 AM   #250
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Down .4 today, 1332 cals, a bit high on fat and low on protein. 36 grams of protein for the day. Hope to do better. Never hungry except in the morning. Trying one tbsp of red palm today for Vit E.

Feel great and will continue the trial.

I agree with Ouiz on the difficulty of eating bland. I can't always do it. Though, I do eat most veggies dry and spice free.

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Old 08-06-2013, 07:03 AM   #251
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I replied to Ouiz but the post hasn't shown up.

I ate three good meals on the weekend so I suspect I raised my fat set point. Still bloated from Sunday. I was a little concerned about being tired last night but then energy kicked in at bedtime. Maybe I will need to skip evening MCT oil
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Old 08-06-2013, 08:40 AM   #252
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I am very fatigued and I wonder if this is normal or I need to raise the calories. I have been eating not more than 1100 cal (including 2 tbls of ghee). I am not hungry but I am getting little lightheaded and once I eat something I am better for little while and than I crush again.

It could very well be other things, like PMS fatigue, atkins flu (I went LC again few days back) and I think I may have sessional allergies. Don't know Maybe it is time to make some broth or add some carbs
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:04 AM   #253
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Hmm, it is not supposed to work this way...fatigue could be a sign of metabolism throttling back. I'm not sure what to tell you.

I've been having squares of 85% dark chocolate and/or a mix of milk and keifer when I am tired. It seems to do the trick.
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:26 AM   #254
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OK, I just added 1.5 oz of mac nuts to my lunch and will try to finish the day at 1300 cal. I think I am just not eating enough!
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:47 AM   #255
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thanks for the reply KT--it is frustrating not to get an answer--it sure takes awhile for posts to show up on this thread
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Old 08-06-2013, 02:15 PM   #256
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As I have started this, have had a co ok ple binge episodes. Yhis is pretty common fo rv me whrn I am focused o. Doing something new and focused on eating less. Today no oil as my schedule made me choosr between oil and a meal. Will start MCT tomorow. Wondering ig there is any point in using pol tonigjt. Does it cause sleep issurs if used at night?
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Old 08-06-2013, 02:16 PM   #257
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Sorry. Very bad phone post.
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Old 08-06-2013, 02:32 PM   #258
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I became very hungry this afternoon. It felt like hypoglycemia perhaps. I was getting this shaky feeling and had to eat right away. I don't know if it was the mac nuts I had at lunch but I wanted more nuts with dinner I also ate like 2 cups of yogurt. I think I probably got to 2000 cal today. I wonder if this happened because I lost quite it bit of weight in short period of time and my set point has to be re-set? I don't know if this is normal. Maybe because I am PMSing I need more food naturally. I will not eat the mac nuts again as they are not easy for me to have in small quantity. I got the roasted ones and they have too much flavor.
So did I mess up my SLD diet?
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:09 PM   #259
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OK, I just read on SLD forum that some ladies have to do 3 tbls of oil a day and some do nose clipping with some foods during PMS. I could have done with mac nuts if I knew it. I just got rid of whatever leftover mac nuts I had so I have nothing to temp me. I will just have to get trough this next few days and will just eat more protein till I am no longer hungry. Hopefully I will not be too hungry but I also don't want to eat too little like I ate for the past 5 days. It was making me tired. I think the least I should eat is 1200 cal. I may need more now till TOM arrives.
I don't know if I am going to step on the scale but knowing me I probably will
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:13 PM   #260
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Marika,
There is another good SLD thread over at MDA. I have not clipped my nose, but I accidentally ate today before the hour was up, so I am almost positive my loss will be a gain tomorrow.
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:54 PM   #261
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Marika,
There is another good SLD thread over at MDA. I have not clipped my nose, but I accidentally ate today before the hour was up, so I am almost positive my loss will be a gain tomorrow.
Thanks! I am half way down reading it Lots of good info there.
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:03 PM   #262
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I eventually ff to the last couple of pages.
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:40 PM   #263
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sunday--I've been doing SLD off and on for years. We always had 20 minutes free of flavour on each side of the oil shot. An hour is a lot of time. I wouldn't stress over it.
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Old 08-06-2013, 05:27 PM   #264
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That time info is nice to know. I looked for the book today at the library. No luck. Need to order it.
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Old 08-06-2013, 08:15 PM   #265
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Ah, yes, it is always good to read the book.

I do remember something about 1/2 hour on each side of the oil wasn't effective for everyone, so he recommends an hour. I suppose trial and error would tell you where you need to go with it.

It is supposed to take some number of days to kick in, sometimes it takes longer. I remember it took six weeks for some people - that would take some faith!
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Old 08-07-2013, 02:38 AM   #266
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I am down .2 pounds today but still not back to last Saturday's weight. Am mixing it up today. No potato and am having water packed tuna on lettuce. No mayo or salt. The tuna has plenty of sodium. We will see how that goes. Will still have my 2 tbl of coconut oil in my first and last cup of green tea today.

Have a great day everyone!
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:22 AM   #267
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8/1 138.8
8/2 137.4
8/3 135.0
8/4 133.8
8/5 133.6
8/6 134.4- water weight? (today had about 2000 cal -PMS)
8/7 133.8

Much to my surprise I was down on the scale this morning after I overate yesterday. Today I will increase the 2 ghee to 2.5 tbl just to be on the safe side.

KS- I got the swimmer clips you recommended. Thank you so much, they are comfortable and effective! It makes the oil taking much easier now. I can rinse my mouth with both hands and can now try to eat something w/nose clipped. On SLD forum they talk about some shakes they takes nose clipped. I remember reading about in SLD book. I need to pull out my book. Anyone knows about it?

Cici you can pick up the book from amazon used for 0.01 plus shipping

Have a great day everyone!
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Old 08-07-2013, 04:07 AM   #268
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Hello all. I am balancing on the same weight today or a smidgeon up. I did not take my oil yesterday as regular because I forgot and ate too soon. I also did not get my adrenal cocktails or proper nutrition, except for egg yolks and some turkey, I had some rather junkie foods.

So, I will try to do better today. I am more than thrilled with my results so far.

Marika and all,
If you get a chance read Morex's testimony under "I made it!". He really impressed me with his 75 lbs lost. I think he is one of the newest SLD'ers with a great story. Although, I cringe to read he was doing this with canola oil.
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Old 08-07-2013, 04:37 AM   #269
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Thanks for the info Ouiz! I am so funny, I bring the MCT oil in a small eye dropper bottle in my purse, so that I will be able to take it in the right time span. Only one issue is that yesterday, I was so busy I forgot. So driving home, I am squirting oil shots in the back of my throat.

Eeeee, the things I do.
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Old 08-07-2013, 04:57 AM   #270
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Quote:

Cici you can pick up the book from amazon used for 0.01 plus shipping


Thanks. I did find one at another library. Will pick it up today.
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