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Old 07-22-2013, 07:27 PM   #61
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Oh, I did melt the butter in water earlier today. That seemed to go into the back of my throat and coat the whole thing. I could taste butter for hours after that, even though I washed it down with astringent tea and drank water after that.

I went shopping, thought about how hungry I was at that hour before dinner (I had more calories than usual during the work day, about 600, and great hunger whereas I usually eat maybe 400 to 500 and am not hungry on potatoes), so I decided to pass on unsalted butter. I will have to use bland food and chia seeds. I will be buttering my evening vegetables, however!
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Old 07-22-2013, 07:33 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Tones View Post
Oh, I did melt the butter in water earlier today. That seemed to go into the back of my throat and coat the whole thing. I could taste butter for hours after that, even though I washed it down with astringent tea and drank water after that.

I went shopping, thought about how hungry I was at that hour before dinner (I had more calories than usual during the work day, about 600, and great hunger whereas I usually eat maybe 400 to 500 and am not hungry on potatoes), so I decided to pass on unsalted butter. I will have to use bland food and chia seeds. I will be buttering my evening vegetables, however!
I sense that the chia seed would work well. I think zucchini would be a great unspiced veggie. Just zucchini and nothing else. I even eat them raw.
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Old 07-22-2013, 08:15 PM   #63
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Ooo, lookie what I found:

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Old 07-22-2013, 08:25 PM   #64
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Best line: A one pound box of chocolate really could raise your fat set point 10 pounds! It really does work that way!
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:25 AM   #65
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I am down another pound today from no reward eating. That is 6.6 pounds since Friday. I am very excited about this and hope it continues. I will be at a family meal tonight with food with lots of flavors and sodium so anticipate a bounce up tomorrow. I am still taking my daily vitamins which are flavored and for 2 days I am back to having a tbl of unflavored coconut oil in my hot green tea.
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:26 AM   #66
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KT, like Ouiz and others, I find MCT oil completely flavourless if you could bear trying that.

I'm just working through how to do this and the timings involved if I'm going to combine it with my ketogenic protocol for migraine and JUDDD schedule.

Given my over-abundance of body fat, I obviously need to change my set-point to prevent the diversion of any regain to fat stores rather than other compartments such as muscle or glycogen.

ETA: I would appear to have a fiercely defended fat mass set point. I had a body composition assessment 5 days ago and at 127lbs, I've <77lbs lean body mass and 50lbs of body fat: My body fat assessment (SlowSure)
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:35 AM   #67
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SlowSure,
Yikes! I may be in the same boat! I think I should have the hydrostatic tests done. I didn't begin resistant training until I had already lost 30 lbs. but worry about the 10 months of ADFing, due to my VLC days were extremely low in protein. And, at my last appt., my doc said that having been at an avg calorie intake of 950 per day w/ alternate days being so low had an impact on my struggling thyroid issues.

My dream has always been to be a fit & muscular woman, but have been waiting until I am free from the University to dedicate time to training. I will be reading up on this and hope to help find answers. Are your daily cals still very low EOD? Maybe just daily fasting of 14-16 hours would be sufficient?

PHD recommends a minimum daily 600 cals of protein. I don't always hit that but will begin to strive for it.
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:42 AM   #68
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Abigale!!! Wow! You are slaying this!

I am down 1.4 lbs since I began yesterday, this has me very curious.

MCT oil is the easiest for me. KT, I don't know if it will cause you any allergic sensitivies? Do you all notice that it extremely limits your food intake when you have to wait an hour before eating and one hour after eating? I ate about 1200 cals yesterday with half of it being less than nutritious
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Old 07-23-2013, 09:51 AM   #69
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Since I have ongoing hives, which can be really awful sometimes (I had to ice myself the other night just to get relief from itching), I just can't risk swallowing something I know is a problem for me, so I really can't risk MCT oil.

I did, however, take a shot of ghee this morning. I think that was OK, I mistakenly took a breath through my nose before I cleared this with water, and had a little sensation of butter after, which I think is still with me. Not to be gross, but I think it mixes with mucus in the back of the throat and hangs around.

Hmm, maybe if I freeze the butter, then cut it into little bits, dip it in gelatin to coat....? Wow, maybe I could make frozen liver pills go down this way. I have never thought about that...

I need something to make little pellets out of butter. Eyedropper it into those capsules you can make yourself and then just swallow? OK, this is getting weird, but I'm going to think on this.

Last night, I ate a microwaved potato with nothing on it. Really, it was pretty close to flavorless. I have a feeling that the potato is my best option for this plan. I had not realized before that going completely bland with the potato might be a better option and reserve flavoring to get my vegetables down. I think it is a good strategy.
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Old 07-23-2013, 09:54 AM   #70
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Quote:
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I am down another pound today from no reward eating. That is 6.6 pounds since Friday. I am very excited about this and hope it continues. I will be at a family meal tonight with food with lots of flavors and sodium so anticipate a bounce up tomorrow. I am still taking my daily vitamins which are flavored and for 2 days I am back to having a tbl of unflavored coconut oil in my hot green tea.
Wow, yay!!!!!
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:02 AM   #71
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still brainstorming...eyedropper unsalted (Kerrygold) butter onto wax paper and put into the freezer. Like making dot candy.
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:03 AM   #72
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still brainstorming...eyedropper unsalted (Kerrygold) butter onto wax paper after it solidifies, put into the freezer. Like making dot candy.
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:04 AM   #73
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still brainstorming...eyedropper unsalted (Kerrygold) melted butter onto wax paper and after it solidifies, put into the freezer. Like making dot candy.
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:13 AM   #74
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I'd think a dot candy size of fat might work nicely as long as you can eat a handful almost straight from the freezer with a glass of water to wash it down to obtain a Tbsp worth.

I didn't realise you'd tried MCT oil before, KT, as it's a known problem for you then that is a non-starter.

I don't have much of an appetite at all but I am interested in shifting my fat mass set-point. So, I'm wondering about taking my first shot of MCT with water and then having my MCT coffee about an hour later. Then I might have my 2nd shot of MCT mid-afternoon (observing a window on either side) and my 4th Tbsp of the day would be in my usual cocoa.
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:21 AM   #75
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SlowSure,
Yikes! I may be in the same boat! ..

My dream has always been to be a fit & muscular woman, but have been waiting until I am free from the University to dedicate time to training. I will be reading up on this and hope to help find answers. Are your daily cals still very low EOD? Maybe just daily fasting of 14-16 hours would be sufficient?
I hope you're not similar tbh, I'm such an outlier than I resemble only 1/875 of the female participants in the Shah and Braverman study that I mentioned in that thread. And yet, given the demographics, that woman is likelier to be quite a bit older than I am, possibly have had a history of alcohol and tobacco use as well as some metabolic derangement - and I have none of those.

My EOD kcals have increased because of the amount of MCT that I need to consume. It's made it very difficult to keep a 1000kcal swing between the days and I don't think that I manage it most of the time.

Because the MCT only seems to hold me for 3-4 hrs (it's metabolised off preferentially), a daily 14-16 hrs fast would interfere with the migraine control, I think. It might be worth experimenting when the weather is less likely to provoke a migraine or when I can reduce the amount of MCT that I'm using but it's working so well at present that I'm reluctant to tinker with a successful programme.
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:41 AM   #76
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Oh, did you know that Paul recommends even more MCT oil during the fasting period? He says that it doesn't interrupt the fast. In fact, he says absolutely no protein, but MCT is fine. I will go and look for his explanation, but he claims that the autophagy is still doing it's job just the same as ADF, 14 hours for women and 16 hours for men. Just thinking that maybe as long as you take the oil before bed and then once upon rising???
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Old 07-23-2013, 08:31 PM   #77
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Ooo, I just read something interesting. Seth Roberts is using fukiame (Japanese rice seasonings) to "trick" himself. he says there are so many different mixes, and this is a good thing. Here is the rationale...

Apparently, you use flavors to decipher what food is the good stuff to gorge on. If you haven't associated a flavor to the calorie-dense food, it doesn't raise your set point.

So, he used an example of going to a foreign country where the food is not familiar and you spontaneously lose weight. I recall my coworker's obese son in high school entered a foreign exchange student program and went to Germany. He ate all home cooked meals from folks that lived out in the country. He was soon complaining to his mother that his clothes didn't fit.

Anyway, there are threads there where people are talking about crazy spices for their food. I didn't read them, but man...OK, I'm trying it. I just put turmeric in my keifer! It wasn't bad, it was just weird. I guess that is the idea. I have been trying to remember to put turmeric (for the health benefits) in things but I had not been coming up with much. Well now....

I had good results with the chia seeds today! I felt more energized than just potato work days! I had one drink in the mid-morning, and one in the mid-afternoon. I ate a microwaved russet potato for lunch, and a sweet potato late afternoon to fuel a shopping trip since I could not eat again for several hours. I felt pretty good shopping, really. I think I am going to like this.

I am having vegetable salsa (I made myself - picante sauce with curry powder, fresh tomato, Normandy mix cooked and chopped, pineapple bits, and lime) with my fat-free microwaved organic whole corn tortillas to make "chips" (a trick I learned on the mcdougall board - you wet them down and microwave 2 1/2 min on one side, flip 45 sec on the other side for two - they come out crunchy) and some sort of teeny lobster tail looking things from TJs. oh, "Lanostino tails." They are rather sweet. I checked; no sugar.

Oh my gosh, it is so nice to have real food. I hope all the deprivation during the day is enough to overcome a tasty dinner!

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Old 07-23-2013, 08:37 PM   #78
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I have to meet an old friend of mine for dinner on Sunday. She is here from Phoenix. I haven't seen her in maybe two years? I can't remember, but I don't think I've told her I've lost another, um, maybe 40 pounds since she has seen me! She freaks out when she sees me since it is only once every few years. I have only lost an average of 15 pounds per year (talk about slow...I don't know anyone that has lost slower than I have!!!). She remembers me from my really heavy days.

I'm thinking about nonchalantly tossing turmeric on my food...she will think I have lost it...LOL

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Old 07-24-2013, 02:39 AM   #79
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Thanks KT and Sunday

I was thrilled to see only a .2 gain from yesterday after eating the family meal last night. My sister outdid herself with marinated beef tips, chicken with a lemon based marinade. I stuck to the meat and chicken, had a salad that was already dressed or I would have eaten it plain. I had one glass of white wine.

Back today with the no reward meals of chicken and brocolli. I don't think I have anything until next week that should derail me.

Have a great day all!
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Old 07-24-2013, 06:53 AM   #80
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Well, I am down exactly 1 more lb, making it 2.4 for two days. If we are counting the oil calories in our totals, I had 1848 cals yesterday, so I made up for the 1st day of 1200. I will keep up the scientific trial and we will see how it goes. I must admit to thinking this couldn't possibly be agreeable for me and that it may quit working. However, I am going to keep it up and see where it takes me.

Abigale, so are you really eating the exact same foods plain? I am having salt & pepper on my foods, but adding 1 shot of MCT oil an hour prior to each meal. I have actually had some junk food such as queso and fries thrown in plus a margarita with friends, so I haven't been eating strictly PHD.

Add two adrenal cocktails per day, which I have decided to be a keeper.

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Old 07-24-2013, 07:01 AM   #81
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sunday--what are adrenal cocktails?
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:36 AM   #82
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I found out about this wonderful health benefit reading the FB group that I joined called, Magnesium Advocacy Group. I notice that this time of year works a number on me mentally, physically, and emotionally. Stressed and overwhelmed with school starting. I began drinking these on Sunday and I can tell a big difference.

Here is the recipe...

Note* The only thing that I changed is I squeeze fresh lime or lemon into a glass of spring water then mix the iodized sea salt with the creme of tartar. It is wonderfully refreshing.

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Outlined below is a mineral mixture that one of our colleague’s, Susan Blackard, NP, ND, PhD, has developed for her clients at the Rejuvenation Health Center (Springfield, MO) to take to nourish their adrenals when in need of a lift. This protocol was originally developed by Larry Wilson, MD, a noted expert in adrenal fatigue syndrome.

What is important is that this mixture should be taken at least once or twice/day, and please be sure that it is taken away from food to have the optimal benefit.

4 Oz. of Orange Juice – fresh squeezed is best, but not essential (the Vit-C makes sure that the minerals noted below get to the Liver to then nourish the Adrenals)
1/4 tsp of Cream of Tartar (this is an excellent source of Potassium)
1/4 tsp of fresh ground Himalayan Sea Salt (this is an excellent source of Sodium & other minerals)

What we recommend is that our clients prepare a Thermos at the start of the day with enough liquid for two (2) applications (i.e. at least 8 Oz. of O.J.) and drink it mid-morning, as well as mid-afternoon. In addition, any time that you are feeling particularly anxious it would be advisable to prepare another mixture and take it.

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Old 07-24-2013, 07:41 AM   #83
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Ouiz, if you google Magnesium Advocacy Group, the website has quite a bit of good info. I also take my mag at the same time. I am really enjoying. They say if you have problems waking early such as 3:00 or 4:00 am that it could be your cortisol causing this (from stress) and this cocktail helps resolve the cortisol problem. I have slept very well since taking it.
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:00 AM   #84
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hmmm--OJ is a little too sugary for my liking. However, I do have Vit C powder (or sometimes I us a little packet of EmergenC--I'll make a thermos with emergenC, cream of tartar and himalayan salt and try it out!

Thank you so much Sunday!!!!!!!!!

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Old 07-24-2013, 08:09 AM   #85
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I'm 196 this morning - down another pound.

However, my fasting blood sugar was higher this morning at 97. It is usually between 80 and 85 when I do the potato hack. I am surprised I am losing weight at all.

So, the week after the 4th of July, I restarted the potato hack, after a hiatus of eating, I was 208. I was @200-201 when I switched off on reading about Shangri-La and Stephan Guyenet. So, I lost about 7-8 pounds on the potato hack and have managed to eek out another 4 or 5 pounds just reducing food reward and eating real food for dinner (non-potato foods). I have been having small amounts of protein, keifer (not much, maybe a 1/2 cup in the mornign and 1/2 cup at night), eating buttered vegetables, and munching down a bag of kale krunch when I get home every day too. My daughter and I are both limiting it to one bag per day. I thought this might throw us off, but so far it hasn't.

The biggest change, I think, is giving up sweeteners - no stevia, no splenda, and drinking no coffee. I am beginning to wonder if my brain has associated coffee with cream and massive sweetener (what I have been doing for years, except no cream during potato hack). Perhaps this is why the Perricone recommendation to switch to tea works. Frankly, I can barely stand to drink tea and have little of it.

The lowest I got on the potato hack earlier this year, which was just one weigh in, I managed to get down to 193. I think I quickly bounced back up to 195. Basically, I lost 18-20 pounds on the potato hack earlier this year (eating a few off meals during the weekend and eating up raisins to fuel long bike rides). Reducing food reward and eating a real dinner every night seems healthier. I can't say it is more pleasant because I sure as heck miss my coffee and more than that my sweetner/stevia/splenda.

I've got to figure out this blood sugar. I might have to make the fat free potato chips in the microwave to eat with my salsa instead of the tortillas (sad face!). Nothing holds my blood sugar down like potatoes.
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:11 AM   #86
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Hmm, interesting, kale krunch didn't light up. Alive & Radiant Foods Kale Krunch is on netrition.com. It is my favorite thing.
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:14 AM   #87
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Quote:
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Well, I am down exactly 1 more lb, making it 2.4 for two days. If we are counting the oil calories in our totals, I had 1848 cals yesterday, so I made up for the 1st day of 1200. I will keep up the scientific trial and we will see how it goes. I must admit to thinking this couldn't possibly be agreeable for me and that it may quit working. However, I am going to keep it up and see where it takes me.

Abigale, so are you really eating the exact same foods plain? I am having salt & pepper on my foods, but adding 1 shot of MCT oil an hour prior to each meal. I have actually had some junk food such as queso and fries thrown in plus a margarita with friends, so I haven't been eating strictly PHD.

Add two adrenal cocktails per day, which I have decided to be a keeper.
Woot!!!

It is so hard to lose a couple of pounds...that is so great!

I find it interesting that this is working for me after the potato hack. I thought my weight loss would halt.
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:09 AM   #88
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Have you tried Tazo Chai Tea. I buy it at most stores. WM has it for a good price. It is unsweetened. The spices make it bearable. I'm not a tea fan, either. I sometimes add unsweetened almond milk or the coconut milk that is very low calorie.
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:23 AM   #89
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WOE: Perfect Health Diet- 16hr Daily Fast
Start Date: JUDDD - 2/01/12 Began at 200, Goal 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by ouizoid View Post
hmmm--OJ is a little too sugary for my liking. However, I do have Vit C powder (or sometimes I us a little packet of EmergenC--I'll make a thermos with emergenC, cream of tartar and himalayan salt and try it out!

Thank you so much Sunday!!!!!!!!!
I am in love with the fresh lime juice and the salt together. I wonder if it is because it reminds me of margs?

Yes EmergenC is a great source of VitC. I decided to up mine to 3 a day, I love them that much!

KT, I have at least one or two baby dutch potatoes at every dinner. I have been doing this ever since I started PHD. I am amazed at my circadian rhythm just by adding taters and fasting from dinner till 10:30 next morn. I have been doing the MCT oil for morning coffee every day prior to this new flavorless oil trial. I am thrilled to see this working for you! And as for me, I didn't think it would do a thing, so this is really no problem at all. I think I am going to try doing the flavorless food during the week with the oil and see if that brings even more to the losses.

Last edited by sunday; 07-24-2013 at 11:26 AM..
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:30 PM   #90
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: London/Herts UK
Posts: 3,115
Gallery: SlowSure
Stats: 157/114/118-125
WOE: JUDDD Maintenance. Ketogenic PHD.
Start Date: 11 Dec. 2011 Restart 1 Jan 2013
I drink Indian tea without milk or sugar several times a day and savour it It very much depends on what is familiar to you, doesn't it.

I don't sleep much and I've a habit of drinking non-caloric but flavoured water during the night (particularly during the present heatwave). I'm going to have to swap that out for unflavoured water so that I can experiment with the flavourless kcals of MCT first thing. Of course, this will delay my first cup of tea of the morning - the horror
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