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Old 07-21-2013, 12:22 PM   #31
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Yes, KT, I ran into this issue once before when PJ brought this Shangri-La idea to the JUDDDers. I can take the oil in between meals easier than I can eliminate taste or spice. It is so peculiar! I did find out by trying this yesterday and today, I have found several foods that I still enjoy even sans spice or additions.

Avocado
Tomato
Eggs
Sardines
Oysters
Zucchini
Artichoke
Olives
Potato
carrots


For some odd reason, I can't eat chicken, roast or really any type of meat without seasoning, except for sardine & oysters. I am developing a rather odd sense of how I like meat in the last few months. I really don't like it the same as I used to.

Has anyone read the lengthy thread over at MDA that is about this concept? Shangri-La Diet-setpoint success? I will try and read a bit when I have some down time.
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Old 07-21-2013, 12:26 PM   #32
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I have forgotten my log on over there, so I will have to wait until they send me a new password. Sometimes my memory is absolutely horrendous.
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Old 07-21-2013, 12:35 PM   #33
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Oh, and one more question? I may should ask this over at MDA. Does anyone have a problem of too low calories while doing this?

I am the one person who tends to lean this way even though I really try not to. It took me quite a while to really get my calories up when I switched to 16 hour and PHD. I imagine it is the "old" JUDDDer in me that stresses I will slow my metabolism down if I stay too low. I love the idea of working my Leptin to lower setpoint.
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Old 07-21-2013, 12:46 PM   #34
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I wonder if I went too low on calories during my potato hack (same principle - my appetite was so suppressed that I ate a very small number of kcals per day).
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Old 07-21-2013, 01:13 PM   #35
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SlowSure, I know I was only eating about 600 cals per day. I even tried to go much over, but rarely did. When you did the hack, did you notice that you felt fine healthwise? I have forgotten, because I didn't follow you during this time period until you neared the end. I have tried several times to do the hack since my 5 day run and each time, I falter about 3 days in.

I noticed when I eat anything plain, I am really not hungry nor am I fretful about eating, just bored of the taste. I understand the concept of having zero appetite. This is why I prefer to try the oil method and use coconut oil/mct. I think it will possibly have the same effect.

I do want to keep my cals at a higher level. At least 1,000, don't you think?

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Old 07-21-2013, 01:16 PM   #36
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Sunday - Oh, I definitely lost my appetite on the potato hack, especially at first!

I have become more afraid of doing the potato hack too much because of the mouth sores...it is making me wonder if I will break out in cavities if I do it too much (Chris Masterjohn's story about going vegan shook me up).

I really want to eat small amounts crucial foods to keep myself healthy while losing weight. This has given me hope! I am going to stick to potato/sweet potato eating. There is something seriously effective about lowering the fat set point with these.

I am curious about the MDA thread too!

SlowSure - I'll try adding cinnamon to my tea. I like that in very small doses.
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Old 07-21-2013, 01:18 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by sunday View Post
Yes, KT, I ran into this issue once before when PJ brought this Shangri-La idea to the JUDDDers. I can take the oil in between meals easier than I can eliminate taste or spice. It is so peculiar! I did find out by trying this yesterday and today, I have found several foods that I still enjoy even sans spice or additions.

Avocado
Tomato
Eggs
Sardines
Oysters
Zucchini
Artichoke
Olives
Potato
carrots


For some odd reason, I can't eat chicken, roast or really any type of meat without seasoning, except for sardine & oysters. I am developing a rather odd sense of how I like meat in the last few months. I really don't like it the same as I used to.

Has anyone read the lengthy thread over at MDA that is about this concept? Shangri-La Diet-setpoint success? I will try and read a bit when I have some down time.
I, too, find I am not a big fan of meat.

I can't say my list is as long as yours...you are fortunate.
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Old 07-21-2013, 02:30 PM   #38
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KT,
After reading more at MDA, I brought this post here by heatseeker, who is the OP. It sounds like this would work very well and almost sounds exactly like what SlowSure was doing with Keto PHD? Maybe a bit less oil? But very similar. It is based on the appetite suppression from the oil taken one hour prior to any meals. Paul is always recommending to folks who are just learning to fast, to continue to take the oil upon waking and that they should be able to last longer with their fast.

Quote:
You're eating normally, but also eating 1-3 tbsp of flavorless oil (I use coconut oil) in between meals, like a supplement. Fear not, I still eat my usual wide variety of delicious primal goodies . I just eat much less than I used to.

A rundown of my food intake would be: I eat very strictly 80/20 primal, with the 20% coming from white rice (sushi), corn tortillas on tacos (I live in Texas), and the occasional red wine or ice cream. My diet is very typical primal fare: pastured meats, sweet potatoes, tons of greens and vegetables (I eat kale, collards and broccoli pretty much every day), lots of fish and avocado, animal fats, coconut milk, occasional fruit like berries. I do eat dairy, in the form of greek yogurt, cottage cheese, and fancy aged cheese. I found that my athletic pursuits and general state of mind are better when I consume a slightly higher carb level than the typical MDAer, so I eat 100-150g carbs a day in the form of sweet potatoes, white rice, and vegetables.

The thing I like about the SLD is that it's changed nothing about my eating habits besides the amounts/portions. I still eat all the same stuff, I still have my occasional cheats, etc., I'm just satisfied by half as much food as I used to be. It's both the simplest and most effective thing I've ever done. The other nice thing about it is that it's really no big deal to test it out if you want to experiment. A couple tbsp of coconut oil is not gonna hurt you. (Unless you take all the oil at once in one dose, which I did once and spent some quality time in the bathroom within 20mins.)
It sounds like a lot of the women are eating around 600-800 cals most days. I think I would like to try to do this in a different fashion, so as not to be too low on cals but in an effort to lower my setpoint and get the losses moving.

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Old 07-21-2013, 04:05 PM   #39
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I'm one of the original SLDers. I am puzzled as to how coconut oil could be flavourless. We determined once upon a time that even the refined oil was not flavourless (unless you noseclipped)??
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:24 PM   #40
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Hmmm, that is true. So, noseclipping is not a recommended method?

It seems that the MDA folks are even using Red Palm oil, ELOO and Walnut oil, which all have some flavor and aroma? Not sure that would be effective.

MCT oil is flavorless. Is that what you used? Ouiz, so is this SLD method really about appetite suppression and thus very low calorie? Or does it seem to cause the Leptin to release fat in a means of regulating fat stores?
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:54 PM   #41
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I use MCT oil. Noseclipping is fine--It is just that you need an oil where the flavour won't "seep thru"

I don't know how SLD works. Seth thinks it lowers one's setpoint--calories in the absence of flavour. I think there is something to that, but I don't think it is the whole story. who know? It does seem to work though--
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Old 07-21-2013, 05:01 PM   #42
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Thanks, Ouiz, I say it is worth a try! And it may be that I can just eat the foods that I know to be doable without seasoning??? This is so interesting!
I also began drinking the adrenal cocktail which is very salty but really want to support the adrenals while my work and life are so hectic. It is supposed to be taken in absence of food as well.
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Old 07-21-2013, 06:28 PM   #43
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Cool, but I can't eat coconut oil. I have tried. I don't feel well. Then I tried putting it on my hands. It causes eczema (I tried multiple times).

I read some people are having luck using chia seeds instead of oil or sugar water on Shangri-la. I have a stock of those. They are certainly tasteless. I'll try that for my in between meals. Easy to do at work, too. I can't figure out why they are nose-clipping drinking chia seed water. It doesn't taste like anything! Also, I have heard it helps with inflammation. I think someone on PHD thread told me. I need it. I've got ankle tendonitis according to my physical therapist. I have to go back to the doc to see what he thinks.

Also I read some post in the forums that Seth Roberts said butter helps with depression. I think I'll pick up some unsalted Kerrygold from TJs tomorrow.

I can't visualize drinking refined olive oil. I just want more nutritive benefit from my calories.

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Old 07-21-2013, 06:57 PM   #44
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RE: depression - I am just wondering if it might help with grief.

Also - it occurs to me I have some ghee in stock. It doesn't taste like much. I'll have to compare unsalted butter with it.
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Old 07-21-2013, 07:23 PM   #45
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Yes, chia should be a great non-taste food. A good source of protein too! Sounds like you must be allergic to CO?

I can't imagine drinking any oil besides MCT, macadamia, avocado or coconut. I read one girl say that she was drinking canola oil, until she learned on MDA about it's toxins.
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Old 07-21-2013, 08:01 PM   #46
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KT, Very sorry for you dear. On grief, I am not experienced in knowing this, but I feel like the process of grieving can be intermingled with depression. The sadness of loss usually comes in waves, where with depression most usually will hang over you and not budge. Sometimes causing you to lose track of time or important happenings. I have a bff who struggles with the loss of her son still yet and it has been 10 years. She leads a productive life, yet I can sense when she is experiencing intense grief around special occasions.
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Old 07-21-2013, 11:25 PM   #47
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Sunday,

thank you for your kind words. I didn't mean to trigger this discussion; I just realized after I couldn't edit anymore that I might make people think I suffer from depression. That isn't quite it, as you noted.


On a more important note, oh my, you must listen to this! I found an episode of Seth Roberts on Jimmy Moore's show. Oh, I am so excited! He says if he were to put the book out today he would recommend butter and flax oil! He says his brain functions better on butter as measured by his performance on arithmetic, and he sleeps better with pork fat. So interesting. I just love him.

He eats roast beef with butter nose-clipped, LOL...

Anyway, it is important to take the butter or flax oil in between meals, not with food. I guess you guys know that; I'm just repeating because he eats his butter with roast beef, but for weight loss, I guess you shouldn't eat it with food.

Google:


506: British Paleo Physician Dr. Sarah Myhill And ‘Shangri-La Diet’ Author Seth Roberts


I skipped ahead to the second half where Seth Robert starts talking.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:30 PM   #48
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Yes, chia should be a great non-taste food. A good source of protein too! Sounds like you must be allergic to CO?

I can't imagine drinking any oil besides MCT, macadamia, avocado or coconut. I read one girl say that she was drinking canola oil, until she learned on MDA about it's toxins.
Yes, I think I must be allergic. It is sad; I have this huge vat of it. I am keeping it for disaster recovery. If we ever don't have food for an ice storm or something, well, I might be sick but I wouldn't have to be starving.

Canola oil, oh my gosh...

If I could just get my boyfriend to quit eating margarine. I swear he is impossible to talk to about this. I might steal the Crisco out of his cabinet. That is just madness.
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Old 07-22-2013, 01:14 AM   #49
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For people who are interested in changing their reaction to sweet tastes as a way of modifying food reward, you might want to look at: umm, ok, why aren't we all using gynema???
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Old 07-22-2013, 02:06 AM   #50
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Continuing with the no reward eating. I am down another 1.4 pounds today so that is 5.6 since Friday. Guyanet says to eat a couple of regular meals a week so when I go to dinner at my sister's house tomorrow night I will eat whatever is in my food range. They usually grill out marinated steak and chicken and have tossed salad so there will be flavors then. Expect a salt water retention on Wednesday's weigh in from that meal

Have a good day all!
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:39 AM   #51
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Wonderful Abigail!

Thanks to KT for the new podcast to listen to during my "crunching numbers" day.

And thank you SlowSure for the link!
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Old 07-22-2013, 08:23 AM   #52
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Good news, Abigail!!!


OK, I've had about 100 calories of chia seeds in water. I have just melted a tablespoon of Kerrygold butter in 1/4 cup of hot water. When it cools, and no one is looking (I'm at my desk at work), I am going to pinch my nose and down it with a straw, then wash the taste away with earl grey tea. I think it is astringent enough to clear the butter.

This is pretty funny, really....
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Old 07-22-2013, 10:01 AM   #53
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Hmmm, I did a tablespoon of MCT, but did not wash it down with anything but water.

Is your chia only for meals or to replace oil? Just curious. Thanks KT.
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Old 07-22-2013, 10:11 AM   #54
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I'm using chia to replace oil or sugar water. He is using flax, but I think chia seeds are better. According to his podcast, something without flavor will do, so I decided to try that. He discovered oil works like the sugar water because it is flavorless (his discovery was with the sugar).

I don't see how this butter thing is going to work. Even though I pinched my nose and used a straw, I can still taste the butter. It comes into my mouth from the back of my throat. I drank tea but it didn't fully clear it.

Perhaps it would be better to just take cold butter so it doesn't run everywhere. I need candyshell-coated butter! Lol...

I wish I could just do the refined coconut oil. Sigh.
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Old 07-22-2013, 10:12 AM   #55
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kt--no earl gray tea. You must have absolutely NO flavour associated with the calories. Many people learn to "nose block" so that they get no taste of anything for 20 minutes before and after the oil. it is the lack of association that is key here. Seth believes that the setpoint only drops if calories don't have flavour.

when I did this regularly, I used a shot glass. Mixed the mct oil and water together and gulped the shot. Used my uncanny talents to "noseblock" for 10 minutes or so afterwards. Dranks some hot water to make sure the little bits of oil didn't create flavour.

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Old 07-22-2013, 10:14 AM   #56
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Did you guys read Born to Run? The Tarahumera would use chia seeds to fuel long distance runs across the dessert. Perhaps this helped to keep them from getting so hungry because they are flavorless? Just a thought.
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Old 07-22-2013, 10:15 AM   #57
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kt--no earl gray tea. You must have absolutely NO flavour associated with the calories. Many people learn to "nose block" so that they get no taste of anything for 20 minutes before and after the oil. it is the lack of association that is key here. Seth believes that the setpoint only drops if calories don't have flavour.

when I did this regularly, I used a shot glass. Mixed the mct oil and water together and gulped the shot. Used my uncanny talents to "noseblock" for 10 minutes or so afterwards. Dranks some hot water to make sure the little bits of oil didn't create flavour.
Ah, thank you!

I'll use water next time.

I haven't received my book yet!
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Old 07-22-2013, 10:44 AM   #58
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Thanks for the advice. I have only read portions of the site, so I am a novice to this whole aspect of flavorless calories.
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:43 PM   #59
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I tried swallowing cold butter pinching my nose - it is hard. It makes the ears plug up. I drank water after, but there was still butter, in my teeth I think, and I could taste it later.

Also, it has been an hour since the butter, and I am hungry, daydreaming about butter. I screwed it up.

The chia seed thing went well, however.

An old thread came to life where I was talking about my potato pizza recipe...I wonder why that worked? I guess no matter how you prep it, potatoes are not very dense in nutrition. Also, perhaps it has been so long since I had any real pizza I didn't associate potato pizza with real pizza? I'm just not sure.

I really want to make this butter thing work somehow. It seems so much healthier.
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Old 07-22-2013, 07:14 PM   #60
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KT,
About how much butter? Just a tbsp? Why not drop in a bit of warm water, just enough that it doesn't stick and throw it back like a shot? I am a lover of butter, so I fear this would do the opposite for me. I kind of went overboard on calories because I met a friend tonight, so I will have to really watch the calorie intake tomorrow.
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