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Old 04-10-2013, 06:39 AM   #301
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I guess the potato hack has propelled me into a new, fat free vegan lifestyle. I developed some kind of meat and fat aversion as a result. Now I am eating taters, veggies, and (gasp) fruit nuts and seeds and am losing weight rapidly. I am eating some beans even though I know the paleo thinking on them. Such an 180 for me, but I love what I am eating in a way I haven't in forever. The key for losing really seems to be low fat and extremely high nutrient density
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Old 04-10-2013, 07:23 AM   #302
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I wonder and worry about how many people eat what they think they should eat, and maybe never find what their body truly needs. We are all so very different. But, for most, I suspect 'nutrient dense' is a critical - and frequently missing - component of health.
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Old 04-10-2013, 08:27 AM   #303
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I'm with you on the spike versus the trickle but I think it's difficult to lay this out fully without data involving the AUC and whether or not somebody has a functional first pass insulin response (people with Diabetes 1 definitely don't, and very probably a fair number of people with T2D and maybe some people with perturbed BG issues don't).

This may very well be the key to where PJ & I aren't in agreement. We are coming from very different places as she is trying to stabilize a FBG and my glucose metabolism is functionally normal. So I definitely agree that we may all be coming at this from different metabolic approaches.
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Tossing this into the pot: if I eat potatoes with steamed veggies, or with an ounce or two of protein, or with teaspoon or two of fat, or potatoes au nothing, I seem to get the same response.

I also found this to be true in a limited sense. I did not try veggies with my last hack but I did track daily grams of fat and found I lost the same on my 0 fat day as I did on my higher fat day. Even with 2-3 grams of fat per potato, I still lost.

I do believe (belief: understanding a thing to be true without having science to back it up) there is some level of potato eating - probably hovering somewhere around each individual's RMR - above which noshing potatoes can become counter-productive.
I also think this is true. I mentioned something similar on the JUDDD potato thread and this is where my personal concern about adding other things plays in. There have been many mentions about adding protein or veggies decreasing the satiety factor.

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I guess the potato hack has propelled me into a new, fat free vegan lifestyle. I developed some kind of meat and fat aversion as a result. Now I am eating taters, veggies, and (gasp) fruit nuts and seeds and am losing weight rapidly. I am eating some beans even though I know the paleo thinking on them. Such an 180 for me, but I love what I am eating in a way I haven't in forever. The key for losing really seems to be low fat and extremely high nutrient density
This is really awesome. I've also found my tastes are changing from hacking. However, I'm still in the "I can eat whatever I want" phase of the mental reset. So when I do eat "junk" - stuff I was fine with before, I pay the gastrointestinal consequences. I need to remind myself that, just because JUDDD allows *anything I want* on UDs, that isn't always what my body wants.
I used to write on my bathroom mirror in the mornings after a binge to remind me how awful I felt. I think I need to go back to doing that.

I think, bottom line, the potatoes work in different ways and with different accompaniments for different people depending on where you're coming from. Super interesting to hear about everyone's experiences & opinions though!
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:57 AM   #304
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I guess the potato hack has propelled me into a new, fat free vegan lifestyle. I developed some kind of meat and fat aversion as a result. Now I am eating taters, veggies, and (gasp) fruit nuts and seeds and am losing weight rapidly. I am eating some beans even though I know the paleo thinking on them. Such an 180 for me, but I love what I am eating in a way I haven't in forever. The key for losing really seems to be low fat and extremely high nutrient density
Ouizoid,

This is what I believe as well. I can't say I lost weight rapidly since I have taken so much time off the diet. I just think, what would have happened if I had done it full time? I have taken Friday night thorugh Sunday off and sometimes days during the week.

I am worried because I have read what happened to Chris Masterjohn (he is a big blogger in the paleo community, smart man who writes for the Weston Price Foundation). Severe cavities and anxiety problems. I am worried about cavities now if I go full in, so I am tempering it. I also am looking at rawfoods sos to make sure I don't go too far in for the same reasons (Denise Minger has written up what happened to her when she went vegan, and she still sticks with mostly raw plant foods but has recommendations on what to do to prevent circling the drain on health).

Google:
Chris Masterjohh My Experience With Vegetarianism
For Vegans | Raw Food SOS
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:00 AM   #305
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I guess the potato hack has propelled me into a new, fat free vegan lifestyle. I developed some kind of meat and fat aversion as a result. Now I am eating taters, veggies, and (gasp) fruit nuts and seeds and am losing weight rapidly. I am eating some beans even though I know the paleo thinking on them. Such an 180 for me, but I love what I am eating in a way I haven't in forever. The key for losing really seems to be low fat and extremely high nutrient density
Ah, I admit I have been making my own hummus! Garbanzo beans are so good and the only bean I like.

I have been a little leary of fruit, except for dry fruit for exercise (and desparate moments) and a few times when I had no food and bought bananas at the convenience store - how much fruit have you been using?
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:47 AM   #306
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KT--thanks so much for those links--great stuff, and I was relieved to see that I am already following most of the recommendations. I have been eating oysters and liver pills along with my other ff vegan fare, as well as supplementing with k2 and d3 between the tater hack and the perfect health diet I feel like I am on the right track for me. I really really notice how my desire for junk food has simply vanished when my nutrition is optimum for me. Nutrient density is so obviously the key --as well as keeping fat low for me.
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Old 04-10-2013, 11:28 AM   #307
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KT--thanks so much for those links--great stuff, and I was relieved to see that I am already following most of the recommendations. I have been eating oysters and liver pills along with my other ff vegan fare, as well as supplementing with k2 and d3 between the tater hack and the perfect health diet I feel like I am on the right track for me. I really really notice how my desire for junk food has simply vanished when my nutrition is optimum for me. Nutrient density is so obviously the key --as well as keeping fat low for me.
Love to hear this! Although, I haven't switched vegan, I am flooding myself w/ veggies, some that I have never tried in my life! Yes, nutrition is the key.

I think the daily raw green smoothie may be my keeper for life. My desire for meat is truly waning, it is very low. Especially pork, I just don't want it and this is coming from a former bacon lover. I still enjoy some seafood and of course the bone broth. I went to the doctor yesterday for more of my annual and was explaining the fact that I feel great. Lots of energy. My body is feeling complete nutrient wise although my blood test reveal that my thyroid is in need of possibly more thyroid meds. She seemed puzzled that I felt so much energy. Especially, when I revealed that I fast daily and gave up sugar, gluten, grains, dairy, & seed oils. She advised me that it would be near impossible for me to get my calories high enough w/ veggies, nuts and sparse meat. She was concerned this would not be optimal for my hypothyroidism. I replied that nuts & evco can fill in the gap and was a great add, if needed.

Ouiz, do you ever have any coconut oil now? Are you completely fat free?
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Old 04-10-2013, 11:45 AM   #308
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For the time being, til I get my weight off, I am eating Joel fuhrman style--fat only coming from nuts and flax. When I get to goal, I'll add in more oil although I find his writings on oils being just another processed food very compelling. So, whole foods for now
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Old 04-10-2013, 12:16 PM   #309
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Seems like I recall that he doesn't promote oils, but didn't know if it included coconut oil. Yes, I agree about the weight loss and have definitely lowered my fats. Nuts are a good healthy fat.
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:04 PM   #310
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You're welcome! Glad you are already doing these things.
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Old 04-10-2013, 03:55 PM   #311
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Just in case any of you are interested, Chris Kresser also has a interesting blog today regarding the same discovery that Masterjohn found re: red meat. I love reading both of these scientist's reports. His blog can be found @ Chris Kresser Beyond Paleo.
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Old 04-10-2013, 05:25 PM   #312
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I do read Chris Kresser - thanks!

Ah, yes, this reminds me - the only mention that I have heard in the paleo world of how the low fat plant-based diet can reverse heart disease is, and I am going from memory here, when Gary Taubes tried to corner Gary Lustig about carbohydrates in general, not just sugar (Taubes trying to plug his book). Lustig pointed out that (I believe he said Pritikin or maybe Ornish or both) certain diets can reverse heart disease. Lustig would not bash all carbs.

I think if I were suffering from athlerosclerosis, I would hope that *someone* would tell me this. I have never heard of the paleo or low carb diet opening arteries, but this CAN happen with a low fat unrefined carb-based diet.

I don't think low carb or paleo causes heart disease. However, once you have it, you've got to do what you've got to do.

I remember seeing and hearing of the Pritikin diet, many years ago--probably on Oprah or something, and then hearing that although it would save lives of people suffering heart disease, people don't want to follow that draconian diet.

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Old 04-11-2013, 10:27 AM   #313
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Yikes, I finally got a bloat reaction. I'm up five pounds!

I've been experimenting with lots of A-1 sauce, BBQ sauce, pasta sauce, and soy sauce for a few days. I also read an article about green soups (oh my gosh, I love cauliflower, spinach, and a little onion pureed - looks gross but it is delicious) which needed salt (and pepper). I also tried eating some bananas.

I think I've been pretty low sodium up until this point. I assume it is a sodium bloat, as well as weight of food in the system from eating more - yep, I also found that I want to eat more potatoes when I flavor them up with delicious sauces--to the point of grossing myself out later when I realized how much I had eaten and could not drink enough water to quench my thirst due to stomach pressure. I've been using the sprained ankle as an excuse to eat more - pain an deprivation don't mix!

Kind of sad, but I think it is best for me to just stick with adding vinegar and save the salt/sodium for the delicious green soups.

Hmm, maybe I should put chunks of potato in the soups.
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Old 04-11-2013, 10:29 AM   #314
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BTW, my daughter has definitely concluded that she cannot handle mashed potatoes. She says she can eat two big bowls of mashed potatoes, but can only eat two baked or microwaved potatoes. I also read this in one of McDougall's newsletters. It said that the prep in mashed potatoes makes more of it digestible.

It is the follow up newsletter from 2006. Here it is if anyone is interested:

Google: McDougall Newsletter July 2006 More on Mary's Mini-McD Diet
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:23 AM   #315
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BTW, my daughter has definitely concluded that she cannot handle mashed potatoes. She says she can eat two big bowls of mashed potatoes, but can only eat two baked or microwaved potatoes. I also read this in one of McDougall's newsletters. It said that the prep in mashed potatoes makes more of it digestible.
The BBC and Open University made several fascinating programmes about food processing and the vast, lucrative markets for them.

For obvious reasons, I can't post the links but if you search Youtube for The Men Who Made Us Fat - there are 3 programmes; there's also a 3 part, The Foods That Made Billions on a similar topic. The Men Who Made Us Fat talks about the history of HFCS and other decisions that effectively turned the Western world into a large, open-trial, post-dissemination experiment into what happens when you advise people to drop one macro-nutrient (fat) without understanding the biochemistry properly, nor the implications of increasing other macro-nutrients (empty nutrient, non-fibre carbs) to take its place.

Something that is a recurrent theme in both programmes is that the more you process a food to destroy its fibre, that more you improve its shelf-life, make it easier to chew for people who don't feel that they have the time to eat a meal, and the more you sell the notion that nobody has the time to cook, the more you 'add value, the higher price you can charge for the convenience or 'health halo'.

I avoided mashed potato during the 28 day potato hack because I was fairly sure that whereas all other fat-free forms stomped my appetite into oblivion, mashed potato would stoke it.
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Old 04-12-2013, 05:14 AM   #316
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I find this fascinating because I love the potato soup that I ate and still do now and then. It was really just a boiled potato mixed with de-fatted broth. For some reason, I even enjoyed it cold. Which seems strange, but when I was hungry for something, I would pour just enough to keep me sated.
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:16 AM   #317
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SlowSure - so funny you say this, because I was preparing mashed potatoes in advance for her to take to her dorm to make things easy for her. I prob. overseasoned - I have been mashing in chicken bullion and bone broth (except last week due to sprained ankle did less cooking), small bits of chicken. Then I mash that into potatoes and then do a twice-bake thing by putting in frozen broccoli and frozen corn and bake it all until brown.

It is incredibly delicious. Too good, and too much cooking.

I will let her have her plain baked potatoes!
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:18 AM   #318
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I find this fascinating because I love the potato soup that I ate and still do now and then. It was really just a boiled potato mixed with de-fatted broth. For some reason, I even enjoyed it cold. Which seems strange, but when I was hungry for something, I would pour just enough to keep me sated.
Perhaps my making the potatoes without the bone broth last week was what put the receipe into the dark side. I don't know.

The more I think about it, the more I think Stephan Guyenet has a big piece of the puzzle. Flavoring with chicken bullion is not a good idea (sugar, MSG). Bland is better for weight loss. BBQ sauce and such took me down a dark path.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:47 PM   #319
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... BBQ sauce and such took me down a dark path.
Be assured you are not the first to cry, "Had I but known!!!"
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Old 04-15-2013, 01:02 PM   #320
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I am having better luck adding just spices to potatoes. I've been playing with this, and I like these spices. Basically, they are the ones to use to make hummus or indian food.

chili
ground red pepper (or cayenne - same thing)
cumin
curry powder
pepper
salt
paprika
stevia (I know it sounds strange, but something spicy and sweet is good)
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:52 AM   #321
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I read another tip on Ray Cronise's site. He recommends doing the potato hack within an 8 hour window.

I don't get this - he seems to be into the starch idea, yet he endorses Furhman rather than McDougall. Curious.
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:57 AM   #322
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just noting that I am definitely doing a more fuhrman style diet these days. green smoothie for breakfast, big salad for lunch, potato for snack and potatoes with veggies for dinner. Very satisfying. I am not sure whether my food is all in an 8 hour window, but it is pretty close to it.
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Old 04-16-2013, 10:46 AM   #323
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I read another tip on Ray Cronise's site. He recommends doing the potato hack within an 8 hour window.
Just had a quick look round and can't find it - do you recall the name of the post, please? (Search skills seem to have gone into abeyance.)
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:29 AM   #324
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Just had a quick look round and can't find it - do you recall the name of the post, please? (Search skills seem to have gone into abeyance.)
Oh, it wasn't in a post, it was the chat below the most recent article. Here:





Brian Beaven says:

April 5, 2013 at 8:02 am

Hey Ray,
Iím on board for the nutritarian diet. I focus on vegetables and tubers throughout the week. I have an 8 hour eating window most of the time. I relax some on the weekends and eat more socially.

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April 5, 2013 at 10:44 am

Great.

You can eat almost anything you want within a single 8 hour window a week and maintain weight. I donít think health is as forgiving. Tubers are certainly good sources of amino acids, but they also displace a lot of food volume, so if it is more than a transition period (I picked potatoes last June not because they were magic, but because it just screws up both the high glycemic carb and low carb hypothesis with one food.) I never expected it to catch on as much as itís done and while there are some VERY interesting things going on, itís sort of fun watching it spread.

Just know that it displaces the volume of cruciferous greens that you MIGHT otherwise be consuming if the tubers werenít satiating you.

The 8 hour window works well. If you want to do it daily, transition to 6 and then to 4. I want to do a calorimeter experiment with a four hour window to see what happens if I intentionally over consume.

More of that in the future.

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Old 04-16-2013, 11:32 AM   #325
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just noting that I am definitely doing a more fuhrman style diet these days. green smoothie for breakfast, big salad for lunch, potato for snack and potatoes with veggies for dinner. Very satisfying. I am not sure whether my food is all in an 8 hour window, but it is pretty close to it.
I think I have been extending eating too much. I'm getting lax. I think an 8 hour eating window is a good idea. Don't think I could do much less than that - it allows for two meals.
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Old 04-16-2013, 03:52 PM   #326
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Oh, it wasn't in a post, it was the chat below the most recent article...

April 5, 2013 at 10:44 am

Great.

You can eat almost anything you want within a single 8 hour window a week and maintain weight. I don’t think health is as forgiving. NTubers are certainly good sources of amino acids, but they also displace a lot of food volume, so if it

The 8 hour window works well.
Thank you - that was an interesting read. I think the 8hr window relates to this research on mice. Salk study may offer drug-free intervention to prevent obesity and diabetes - Salk Institute - News Release

Quote:
The Salk study found the body stores fat while eating and starts to burn fat and breakdown cholesterol into beneficial bile acids only after a few hours of fasting. When eating frequently, the body continues to make and store fat, ballooning fat cells and liver cells, which can result in liver damage. Under such conditions the liver also continues to make glucose, which raises blood sugar levels. Time-restricted feeding, on the other hand, reduces production of free fat, glucose and cholesterol and makes better use of them. It cuts down fat storage and turns on fat burning mechanisms when the animals undergo daily fasting, thereby keeping the liver cells healthy and reducing overall body fat.

The daily feeding-fasting cycle activates liver enzymes that breakdown cholesterol into bile acids, spurring the metabolism of brown fat - a type of "good fat" in our body that converts extra calories to heat. Thus the body literally burns fat during fasting. The liver also shuts down glucose production for several hours, which helps lower blood glucose. The extra glucose that would have ended up in the blood - high blood sugar is a hallmark of diabetes - is instead used to build molecules that repair damaged cells and make new DNA. This helps prevent chronic inflammation, which has been implicated in the development of a number of diseases, including heart disease, cancer, stroke and Alzheimer's. Under the time-restricted feeding schedule studied by Panda's lab, such low-grade inflammation was also reduced.
All of which is very interesting, even if it is just mice for now.

My first thought on reading this was that I couldn't possibly eat ŵithin an 8hr window as both DH and I have lengthy commutes so are away from home for 14hrs+ per day. But, I'm wondering if I should give it some serious thought. I suppose if breakfast were something like the Bulletproof coffee then we should just about be able to eat lunch and dinner within an 8hr window, most days. Especially if we tested to see whether our fast is really broken or not by the BPC. Hm.

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Old 04-16-2013, 08:31 PM   #327
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SlowSure - tell me how it goes. I don't usually eat breakfast anyway, so it's not really too much to give up. I will just have to tough it out in the evening.

I hope it does help with diabetes as well as weight loss.

My hope is that the 8 hour window is going to have a lot of health benefits. I have often heard the body heals better when it doesn't have to turn its attention to digestion.

I have been getting a bit creative with the potatoes. I made a bone broth the other day and just boiled a bunch of sliced white button mushrooms (1/3 a costco pack!) and made an asian hot/sour soup (pepper, rice vinegar, soysauce, stevia, basil - couldn't find my seaweed), and cut up a potato that I had cooked yesterday and dropped it in. Yum!

For lunch, I had carrots with hummus I made out of potato instead of garbanzo beans. Strange, I know...I ended up eating the carrots separately from the potatoes. Curious, and good, but potatoes do not hummus make. More like, spicy. cold, mashed potatoes (I put red pepper and curry powder in my hummus).

Last edited by Key Tones; 04-16-2013 at 08:38 PM..
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:53 PM   #328
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I would be interested in the recipes for the green smoothies you gals are liking so much. I'm getting geared up to do an extended hack again but would like to try to get in more green nutrients this time around. I think a green smoothie breakfast would be the ideal way to do so with the way that I tend to eat.
Thanks!
I'm actually looking forward to the way my gut feels on the hack. I'm not sure if its the complete (essentially) lack of fat or what but my abdomen hurt when I went off the hack. Even after several days and getting "readjusted", there were still times of bloat and pain. Right now I'm incredibly painful but I think that is more because of the stomach virus we all had. But eating "normal" food (today is a JUDDD UD) hurts, so I've been trying to get my cals in through dense foods - pecans and cheeses mostly. But ouchie!!
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:36 PM   #329
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Yennie - feel better!

My green smoothie is a handful of spinach (frozen or fresh), 1/2 cup of frozen blueberries, 1 cup of SF almond milk or water plus add enough water to blend, and 1/4 teaspoon of stevia. Ratios really don't matter, it is always good!
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Old 04-17-2013, 06:46 AM   #330
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Jaminet also recommends the 16 hour daily fast, but says that it can be done 2x weekly if you are not able to daily. I just realize that I do better with daily and I keep mine from 6pm - 10 am. It is interesting that when you do this, you naturally do not ever overeat. Ever. In fact, I find 2 meals to be sufficient. Also Jaminet recommends, coconut oil to extend the fast for those who are worried about the length of time.

I enjoy the green smoothie daily. I make mine with a bunch of kale, spinach, one stalk of celery, 1/2 apple, 20 blueberries, unsweetened coconut milk, & cinnamon. The coconut milk is 45 cals per cup and I add ice & 1/2 tsp of gluc before blending to make it go further. I believe the total comes to 175 cals, 4 gr of fat and it usually is more than enough for lunch.

Last edited by sunday; 04-17-2013 at 06:47 AM..
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