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Old 03-29-2013, 12:52 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Otzi View Post
I never got around to the potato starch, but I have found an awesome source of resistant starch.

I take really green plantains, cut them in thin slices, salt and dry them. A whole plantain contains about 100g of RS, so only a quarter or so of one is needed per day to get more RS than you could ever hope for eating potatoes.

An easy way to handle green plantains (they are almost impossible to peel) is to cut them in half cross-wise and length wise, then kind of roll the meat out of each quarter-section. Take these sections and cut in half again so you end up with 8 pieces shaped like a tongue, about 1/4" thick.

Lay these pieces on a cookie sheet and sprinkle with salt or whatever spice you like (cinnamon, chili, etc...) and either air dry for a couple days or put in a heated oven--but not over 140 degrees! It will ruin the RS presumably if heated too much, they have to air-dry as much as possible.

Anyway, I munch on a few of these with dinner or as a snack. They are just like saltine crackers texture-wise and are good to spread things on, like pate or almond butter.

Alternatively, you can cut the whole thing into rounds and eat them like chips. Just be sure you let them get really, really dry. They taste nasty (bitter) when still moist--you'll see if you try! Without salt they are like a salt-free cracker, very bland, but edible. You have to salt them when you first cut them otherwise it won't stick when they are dried.

Cheap, easy, fun, tasty, and a super resistant starch source.
I'm intrigued--thank you!!
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:51 PM   #272
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Hack, Day 6 - Confession time

Well, dang it. I take back yesterday's "being proud of myself". After checking in last night, I ended up doing some baking - a red velvet cake with cream cheese frosting. I did not lick the beaters, scrape the bowl, etc but I did end up tasting both the batter and the frosting - my excuse? It was a new recipe and I did want to see how it was turning out. And, dang it, I ended up eating 1 candied pecan (pecan covered in melted sugar). Why am I confessing? Cuz I'm laying it all out there in the name of science.

This morning's weigh-in was at 179.9. Up 0.9 from yesterday.

Aside from the sugar tasting, some other things were different yesterday: I know I didn't drink enough & I added brown rice instead of just white rice. I woke up feeling pretty bloated & almost constipated feeling. Interestingly enough, when I weighed myself at work, I was exactly the same yesterday & today so maybe there was something to the bloaty feeling as I weigh at work later in the day. Regardless I said my "trial" scale would be the Wii, and the Wii weight is what I'm recording.

Today's menu:
B: Coffee, SF Vanilla syrup, 1 TBS HWC
Calories: 56, Fat: 6
L: Rice with a bit of chicken broth and salt
Calories: 242, Fat: 0
D: 2 yukon golds with 2 TBS SCQ
Calories: 260, Fat: 3
Totals for the day: 560 calories, 9 grams fat

I'm hydrating, hydrating, hydrating today. I will continue the hack through tomorrow at bedtime, weigh and measure for my end-of-March numbers Sunday morning, and then eat like a normal person for Easter. My menu will include the previously mentioned Red Velvet Cake.
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Old 03-30-2013, 01:45 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Yennie View Post
I woke up feeling pretty bloated and almost constipated... I will continue the hack through tomorrow at bedtime, weigh and measure for my end-of-March numbers Sunday morning, and then eat like a normal person for Easter.
Recurrent gut problems have been a feature of the PH for me and the low residue/low volume nature of it (as I never managed to eat that much food most days) had considerably disrupted my usual patterns.

Today is day 28 of the PH for me and the final one of this tranche. I start my transition tomorrow towards a leptin reset that is as much within JUDDD principles as I can contrive it to be. After that, I may decide to do another potato hack before moving back to JUDDD with potato DDs.

I still have tomorrow's weigh-in to round out my recording for the 28 days but so far I've well and truly broken the 5 week stall at 150lbs that prompted me to attempt the PH (today I weighed-in at 140.6lbs).
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Old 03-30-2013, 07:47 AM   #274
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Recurrent gut problems have been a feature of the PH for me and the low residue/low volume nature of it (as I never managed to eat that much food most days) had considerably disrupted my usual patterns.

Today is day 28 of the PH for me and the final one of this tranche. I start my transition tomorrow towards a leptin reset that is as much within JUDDD principles as I can contrive it to be. After that, I may decide to do another potato hack before moving back to JUDDD with potato DDs.

I still have tomorrow's weigh-in to round out my recording for the 28 days but so far I've well and truly broken the 5 week stall at 150lbs that prompted me to attempt the PH (today I weighed-in at 140.6lbs).
I am impressed that you were able to eat taters for this long! I am sorry if you have told this before, but may I ask your age ? I think it would be grand to start a thread where we kept a record of everyone's results from tater hack. I am like Lennie, the scientific nerd, when it comes to our metabolism. Congrats on your success at breaking through your stall.

I have been stalled quite frequently in the last 10 lbs and the PHD plus daily fast with addition of two rather successful tater hacks has broken my stall.
I have a sense that at my age, the stall will be frequently interrupting my plans to get to goal.

Lennie, I have decided that red velvet will be my request tomorrow as well. Congrats on your success!
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Old 03-30-2013, 08:17 AM   #275
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I am impressed that you were able to eat taters for this long! :high: I am sorry if you have told this before, but may I ask your age ? I think it would be grand to start a thread where we kept a record of everyone's results from tater hack. I am like Lennie, the scientific nerd, when it comes to our metabolism. Congrats on your success at breaking through your stall.
Irish ancestry for the last 3 generations or so of my ancestors so I'm probably epigenetically predisposed to eat potato

I'm exactly 52 and 50 weeks today A thread on the results would be interesting to see the spread of ages and who it works for or doesn't.

I was horrified when I stalled at 150lbs because it was so soon after starting. Although I'm within the 'Normal' weight range for my height (usual caveats apply) I wouldn't be surprised to learn that my body composition indicates that I'm obese and is probably a contributory factor to my usually slow weight loss and proclivity to stall.
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Old 03-30-2013, 08:55 AM   #276
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I am 54 and have been struggling for the last 6 years with my weight. I started gaining with the onset of meno about 10 lbs per year. It is much more difficult at our age so we need to remind ourself daily that when we do eventually arrive at goal, it will be quite the achievement.
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:41 AM   #277
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It is much more difficult at our age so we need to remind ourself daily that when we do eventually arrive at goal, it will be quite the achievement.
Indeed

I posted this on the slow pokes (weight loss) thread.

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[Interesting] Braverman and Shah's discussion of BMI in 2012 and the results of their BMI, DXA scan and leptin study.

PLOS ONE: Measuring Adiposity in Patients: The Utility of Body Mass Index (BMI), Percent Body Fat, and Leptin

For various interesting reasons they propose that the BMI threshold should be 24 for women and 28 for men but discuss some of the reasons why BMI is convenient but a very blunt tool as Yennie and others indicate.
Quote:
BMI is possibly more misleading for women than for men, Braverman and Shah say, since women lose muscle and bone, and replace it with fat, faster than men. BMI measurements don’t take into account precisely how weight is distributed in the body, and, as Braverman explained to HealthDay, “it’s the percent of body fat, not BMI, that makes you obese.”

Based on BMI, about one-third of Americans are considered obese, but when other methods of measuring obesity are used, that number may be closer to 60%, according to Braverman.

Read more: Americans May Be Much Fatter Than We Think, Study Says | TIME.com
Sadly, I have no difficulty believing that I'm normal weight obese as Braverman calls it somewhere. And that makes it tricky to pick a goal weight. I know from trying on something that fitted me the last time that I was this weight that I'm about 5inches broader than I last was at the same scale figure which makes me think that I'm late 40s or early 50s as a percentage of body fat in my body composition.
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:13 AM   #278
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SS - totally agree. Wherever it was on the JUDDD board we were discussing that, I mentioned that I'd love to get a body fat percentage measured accurately somewhere. But I think I'm going to wait until I'm a little bit closer to goal...and starting to build some more muscle so I know exactly how many pounds of fat I should aim for. I may be deluding myself but I feel like my ideal weight, based on body fat, is actually going to be higher than the BMI scale might indicate. Which is where I'd love a body fat measure...I could be wrong but I'm kinda built like a spark plug...short & squat and the shape doesn't change as I lose weight...
FWIW, I'm down to 178.1 this morning - so yesterday's bounce was obviously covering something - water or whatever. I'll post official results tomorrow morning but right now I'm averaging about 0.8# per day on the hack. What an awesome tool.
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Old 03-30-2013, 12:38 PM   #279
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I'm 48, 5'10" and I've been overweight all my life, including childhood, as in the only overweight child (or one of two) in early elementary school.

How encouraging!

SlowSure - what amazing results!!!
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Old 03-30-2013, 08:38 PM   #280
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7th & final day

This morning's weight: 178.1#, down 1.8# from yesterday, down 0.9# from lowest since starting the hack.

Didn't feel bloated this morning but I did mix up my morning routine to try to, um, get things moving. I'm guessing there just isn't much to move - no luck.

B: Coffee and a TBS of coconut oil and SF Vanilla Syrup
Calories: 135, Fat 14
L/S: Pot of rice, salt, soy sauce
Calories: 484, Fat 0
D: Yukon golds, SCQ
Calories: 195, Fat 2
Totals: 814 calories, 16 grams fat

We'll see how tomorrow morning's weigh in goes. I'll post an update with final numbers. Right now we're averaging 0.8#/day.
Always intended to end tomorrow with Easter lunch. And I'm ready to be done hacking. It was kinda tough to choke down those last potatoes tonight. I think I need a few days of JUDDD to get my variety on, but sticking with PDDs!
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:40 AM   #281
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Congrats Yennie! You did an amazing tater fast with great results. Enjoy your Easter meal and family.
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:54 AM   #282
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Final weigh in

Well, a bit anti-climactic: weight this morning 178.1, for a total loss of 0 since yesterday. I'm ok with that though, I think its masking water retention again. When will I learn I need to drink-drink-drink!!!
This is for a total of 4.9# in 7 days; averaging 0.7#/day. I'm happy with that and seems to be pretty average as I think I've read losses of 0.5-1#/day.
Happy Easter for all who celebrate!
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Old 03-31-2013, 01:17 PM   #283
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Yennie - you are doing great, really.

My weight goes all over the place, but so does my off-plan eating.

I really think I am replenishing and depleting glycogen stores with the water weight of food and all the things we are used to happening with low carb seems to be happening to me here with the weight swings.

I am restarting on potatoes after going to MILs on vacation. We ate out every meal (she is older and lives to go out when we are visiting). Sigh. I'm staying off the scale until some of this bloat goes down.
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Old 04-01-2013, 02:56 AM   #284
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...
I am restarting on potatoes after going to MILs on vacation. We ate out every meal (she is older and lives to go out when we are visiting). Sigh. I'm staying off the scale until some of this bloat goes down.
Good plan. I find it amazing, how eating out has morphed for me from pure pleasure to (a) why won't anyone serve real cream????, (b) since when is that a serving of vegetables???, and (c) is there any way to get my potato without an equal weight of fake-fat fake-flavor stuff???
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Old 04-01-2013, 05:18 AM   #285
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I haven't been able to start my transition yet as I started a migraine on Saturday that didn't let up until today (Monday). Along the way I managed to move from 140.6lbs to 145.6lbs and although I've come down to 142.4lbs I'm still horribly water-logged and it looks like I've decided subcutaneous rugby balls concealed around the knees are this season's must-have fashion accessory.

It has to be said that I've no idea what weight I am after all of the water and electrolyte fluctuations of the last week. I find it interesting that this has happened to me x2 in a week and wonder if it's common to everyone who does it for that length of time, just women, or some other sub-grouping.
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Old 04-01-2013, 06:11 AM   #286
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I haven't been able to start my transition yet as I started a migraine on Saturday that didn't let up until today (Monday). Along the way I managed to move from 140.6lbs to 145.6lbs and although I've come down to 142.4lbs I'm still horribly water-logged and it looks like I've decided subcutaneous rugby balls concealed around the knees are this season's must-have fashion accessory.

It has to be said that I've no idea what weight I am after all of the water and electrolyte fluctuations of the last week. I find it interesting that this has happened to me x2 in a week and wonder if it's common to everyone who does it for that length of time, just women, or some other sub-grouping.
Well, this is very interesting. What is your plan to transition? I am amazed and so impressed at your month long dedication to potatoes! Wishing you much success!
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Old 04-01-2013, 06:38 PM   #287
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Water retention

Something I posted on another potato thread on the JUDDD boards:

You may be feeling the effects of your body trying to rebalance water and sodium. This is a clip from a website I'd copied & saved a while back. I don't save sources - bad me - so I can't accurately cite this but:
" A high-carb diet raises insulin levels. That we know.
One of the side effects of elevated insulin is that the kidneys start hoarding sodium, which leads to bloating and excess water weight.
This is the reason people lose so much weight when they stat a low-carb/ketogenic diet. Their body "sheds" the excess sodium and water follows along.
This is a good thing, but can be too much of a good thing when your kidneys keep dumping sodium until you become deficient."
The article was about the common mistakes people make when starting ketogenic diets, and goes on to say that you should not fear an increase in sodium.
But my point in pulling this out was to theorize that, perhaps in your case, your body is now doing the opposite. Too much sodium, too much water retention and you feel bloated and sluggish.
I truly, truly, truly believe drinking the lemon water has helped me flush the excess water I was holding on to. And give your kidneys a few days to adapt - they're pretty remarkable organs but do need a few days to figure their business out. (For example, an animal in metabolic acidosis/alkalosis will renal adapt but it takes 48-72 hours before you can see the compensation on their blood work, where as respiratory compensation happens much faster. Hello, physiology nerd.)


I'll add, from personal experience, as you transition back to "normal" eating, add your fats back carefully. Your gut is no longer fat adapted and if you eat a meal with fats, even somewhat moderate fats...there are unpleasant effects on your tract.

I'm still feeling it today and I only hacked for 7 days. I actually was going to go back to hacking until we left for Disneyland but I think now my plan is to do JUDDD rotations with potato DDs. Today is, obviously, a DD after Easter yesterday and its the easiest DD I've ever had as I am so incredibly uninterested in food today. Today all I've eaten is rice in broth (for me, now, potato days actually = potato + rice), trying to rest my gut, and I'll slowly add back in other foods on my UDs. As much as I'd love to lose another 5# before we go to Disneyland... As my husband said - he's sure even the bathrooms are magical but perhaps I'd like to re-adapt myself before we go otherwise I'll be spending 1/2 the trip in said magical bathrooms.
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Old 04-02-2013, 03:23 AM   #288
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Even a bathroom maintained by Tinker Bell might have trouble dealing with a potato-adapted body that just ate a cheese burger and fries

For me, potato magic seems to extend beyond calories restriction. When I tried the hack I had been in JUDDD maintenance for several months...had settled on my usual DD meals and was maintaining very nicely. I rearranged my eating to have a potato only lunch...putting that another way, I continued to eat everything I had been eating but added the calories from a potato and 1 or 2 teaspoons of butter every DD. And, upping my calories that way, I usually lost a pound or two each DD.

And not water weight. The following UD could cause me to bounce up a few ounces or, if I ate a potato for lunch, not at all.

I now totally believe in metabolically based potato magic.
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Old 04-02-2013, 03:50 AM   #289
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Something I posted on another potato thread on the JUDDD boards:...
But my point in pulling this out was to theorize that, perhaps in your case, your body is now doing the opposite. Too much sodium, too much water retention and you feel bloated and sluggish.
Well, that makes a lot of sense, particularly in association with the usual derangement caused by a migraine. I will make up some lemon water and see if that helps.

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I'll add, from personal experience, as you transition back to "normal" eating, add your fats back carefully. Your gut is no longer fat adapted and if you eat a meal with fats, even somewhat moderate fats...there are unpleasant effects on your tract.
I heeded your advice and today's protein breakfast (as part of the transition to a leptin reset) was eggwhites and cauliflower bake with tuna in order to keep the fat level down (DH had his with cheese grated on but I didn't).

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As my husband said - he's sure even the bathrooms are magical but perhaps I'd like to re-adapt myself before we go otherwise I'll be spending 1/2 the trip in said magical bathrooms.
I've never visited Disneyland but, again, I'll heed your sage words
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Old 04-02-2013, 04:36 AM   #290
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For me, potato magic seems to extend beyond calories restriction...

I now totally believe in metabolically based potato magic.
It's so intriguing to follow people's experience with this.

My weight loss is readily explained by the CICO as the appetite suppression would have had me contentedly eating at sub-600 kcals a day. So, it is the simplest explanation - except, I had been steadfast in following my JUDDD numbers for a 5 week stall, which still provided a caloric deficit for me and nothing was moving.

I'm already curious to see what will happen when I hack again. But, I have decided that my difficulty in shifting weight, even at low calorie intakes, possibly indicates that my leptin is in need of a shake-up, if I'm not to find myself in the unenviable position of stalling again, or, reaching an approximate goal, only to find that I need no more than 1050kcals a day to maintain it.

That is the reason that I'm exploring a leptin reset with a view to seeing if I can benefit from that and then incorporate the potato into JUDDD DDs as you, Adi and Ouiz show that it can be done with substantial success.
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Old 04-02-2013, 09:14 AM   #291
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I posted this in the JUDDD Daily Chat thread but since we're also talking about it here, I'm going to add it here as well:
Lemon water, JUDDD and weight loss
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Old 04-02-2013, 09:33 AM   #292
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RE: eating fat again - I have found something similar. Fat seems to upset my stomach now, and I don't want much of it. I went to a bowling party last night, the same party and same catered food as was there two years ago. I was able to eat three plates of food there two years ago, including multiple small slices of pizza. Last night, I ate only one, which was not piled high, and was uncomfortable. I was only able to eat one small slice of pizza - a thin one, but it had a thick layer of cheese. My stomach still feels off this morning.

So, even on off days, I just plain can't eat as much as I used to.

Yenni - thanks. I did get some results from lemon water a long time ago. I drank it for months until I was tired of it.
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Old 04-07-2013, 03:47 AM   #293
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Okay, I've tried to actually do the hack - potatoes as my only food for multiple days - three times now. And I get ill on day two each time. I don't have test strips but suspect my bg leaps into the stratosphere, I fall asleep if I remain still for more than ten minutes, I feel like I have the flu. I know a few people have forced themselves to keep going, keep eating potatoes only and, after three or four days, see great improvements. But I am in a very busy time just now - I don't have days I can lose to this very strange adjustment. I think I am going to stick to one potato meal a day for now. When I can, I will do some more research then when life calms down I may try again.

Ultimately, if a string of potato days leads to stabilized bg, then I will try to get there.

But, for now, I am just stunned at the power of the potato.
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Old 04-07-2013, 07:16 AM   #294
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Nancy, I like the one meal of taters per day. I believe that even doing a down day of one good baked russet or a few roasted yukons and bone broth may be one of the easiest down days I have tried. Like you, I struggle with multiple days of taters only. I will have to have a plan in order to make it through the longer periods. Lots of good broth for sure.

Last edited by sunday; 04-07-2013 at 07:22 AM..
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:47 AM   #295
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I am wondering if the potatoes only is really necessary.

I've been fascinated with Mike Teehan on McDougall's site (the vegan doc that should be credited for the potato hack). Check out his youtube video. He does talk mostly potatoes in the video as to his diet.

The only change he says he made was giving up fat - he was already a vegan. He went from what looks like morbidly obese to *very* thin. Then, his girlfriend adopted his diet and lost 60 pounds in 6 months. These people are not young, either. Check out this post on McDougall's site of the description of his diet:

I think the Dole salad might be salad greens, not pineapple.

======

I usually have a few bags of frozen (no oil) hash browns in the freezer and a supply of Right Foods oatmeals on hand for Breakfast

I buy a 'box' of organic greens and a bag of Dole salad each week and just throw them together with some beans or a cold potato for lunch. Dinner is usully premade. The 'right pie' I referenced is made easily by just combining whatever veggies I have on hand with about 5 pounds of potaoes mashed together. Then I stir in 2 or 3 Right Foods cups (my favorites are Rice/Pasta pilaf, Minestroni, black bean (BB I only use 2) put it into a casserole and bake until the top is golden brown. I take out whatever I feel like eating and put the rest in the fridge for the rest of the week.

I also usually have 10-20 small yellow cooked potaoes in the fridge at all times for snacking. Costco had a 15 pound bag of 'gourmet yellow' this week for 10 bucks.

I also always have a steady supply of 'steamer' bags filled with Normandy style veggies in the freezer. (again: Costco) I buy 2 bags a week and as soon as I get home I put them into individual freezer 'steamer' bags. I can usually get about 10 bags out of them and they are always readily available for popping into the microwave.

The EASISET way to do this is to follow Letha's posts. She makes this whole thing SOOO easy. I hope this helped a little. If not please tell me where I wasn't clear and I'll try to clarify. And THANKS for the kind words!!

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Old 04-09-2013, 01:06 PM   #296
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Yes, I agree! I have been experimenting with Daikon radishes, leeks, & cilantro, sautéed they taste very similar to home fries. So interesting.
Thanks Keytones.
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:26 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Key Tones View Post
I am wondering if the potatoes only is really necessary.

I've been fascinated with Mike Teehan... He does talk mostly potatoes in the video as to his diet.

The only change he says he made was giving up fat...:

I think the Dole salad might be salad greens, not pineapple...
I think it depends on whether or not you're replete with vitamins and protein etc. going into a period of eating like this. Some people might need the nutrients and protein that potatoes offer. If you're pretty well-nourished, I think it's possible to add more non-starch vegetables or sources of soluble fibre or resistant starch and still see good results if you're not adding fat to your food during this time.

The Dole Salads site shows a very interesting range of extra-veggie salads as well as the usual leaf mixes and other blends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunday View Post
Yes, I agree! I have been experimenting with Daikon radishes, leeks, & cilantro, sautéed they taste very similar to home fries.
That's a very helpful list of vegetables to add some variety to theism- thank you.
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:54 PM   #298
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I agree that I think it may depend somewhat on your goals. For pure weight loss, the BG spike caused by the potatoes without fat is the key, as we've discussed quite extensively. I believe a few things that have been kinda hinted at but maybe not fully elucidated:
1) Adding other items, such as protein or fiber from veggies might blunt the insulin spike. I know Jen & I disagree about the slow versus fast swing in BG mobilizing fats for insulin - a surge or a slow trickle using the same amount of insulin - but my gut feeling is that adding fibrous veggies will blunt the swing which *I* believe is important.
2) Its been mentioned that adding other items to the meals might blunt the satiating effect of plain potatoes which may lead to further hunger or discomfort or consuming more calories. I do believe at some point you CAN eat enough calories in potatoes to negate the effects of the hack, especially if you're doing potatoes + other stuff. The cals might add up and end up with just a calorie restricted diet instead of the hack magic.
***I'd like to add that I do not have BG issues and I'm not as in it for the RS***
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:12 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Yennie View Post
I agree that I think it may depend somewhat on your goals. For pure weight loss, the BG spike caused by the potatoes without fat is the key, as we've discussed quite extensively. I believe a few things that have been kinda hinted at but maybe not fully elucidated:
1) Adding other items, such as protein or fiber from veggies might blunt the insulin spike. I know Jen & I disagree about the slow versus fast swing in BG mobilizing fats for insulin - a surge or a slow trickle using the same amount of insulin - but my gut feeling is that adding fibrous veggies will blunt the swing which *I* believe is important....
***I'd like to add that I do not have BG issues and I'm not as in it for the RS***
I'm with you on the spike versus the trickle but I think it's difficult to lay this out fully without data involving the AUC and whether or not somebody has a functional first pass insulin response (people with Diabetes 1 definitely don't, and very probably a fair number of people with T2D and maybe some people with perturbed BG issues don't).

We could all be having a very different metabolic response to the potato hack. For some of us, it may well be that it's a tool to encourage satiety and discourage eating beyond a VLC amount. If it's this, then adding in specific sorts of vegetables in the absence of fat is just likely to add a touch of variety to a VLC programme.

Other people may well need the naked potato or rice to push up their BG, exhaust their liver's stores during their first pass insulin response and then mobilise their fat stores for the second pass response.

Likewise - I don't have perturbed blood sugar issues, and although I may be interested in increasing my resistant starch intake in a few weeks time, at present, it doesn't figure into my leptin rest plans. (That said, I'd like to feed DH more RS for various reasons.)
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:25 AM   #300
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Tossing this into the pot: if I eat potatoes with steamed veggies, or with an ounce or two of protein, or with teaspoon or two of fat, or potatoes au nothing, I seem to get the same response.

I do believe (belief: understanding a thing to be true without having science to back it up) there is some level of potato eating - probably hovering somewhere around each individual's RMR - above which noshing potatoes can become counter-productive.
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