Paleo, Primal, and Atkins?????
 

I have been doing Atkins for a year and have not lost any weight at all, I stay eating this way because my A1C went from 6.7 to 5.3 and my Trigs went from 300 to 199 (I have non-alcoholic fatty liver), and I went from having high blood pressure and 3 meds to just taking one.
I still take 1000mg of metformin only because I am highly insulin resistant.
It is hard though that I haven't lost any weight at...
I was told "it could be your fatty liver, it could be thyroid, it could be that you have sleep apnea
I have had extensive thyroid testing done and was on the low end of hypo and had a nodule on my thyroid, my endo put me on synthroid
I now have a CPAP machine for the sleep apnea and am going to curves.
Someone at the vitamin store today who is a body builder told me that maybe Atkins is not what my body needs and maybe I should try the Paleo diet and even mentioned the Primal one as well

I Looked into both of them just briefly and they don't seem different from Atkins so what's the deal????

Well off the top of my head, Paleo has no dairy and no wheat as those were Neolithic additions to the human diet. I don't know what defines Primal.

this is very hard. I feel for you. *hug*

have you written out your menus for a few days for comment here? there are always a lot of suggestions when people do that. hard to say what the problem is.

do you weigh all your food and log it on a program like MyFatSecret online? it's a pain, but the only way to really know what you are eating.

I agree those other diets will not be the answer if Atkins doesn't work for you.

I don't know how to respond on the thyroid issue, I just know there is a lot of discussion about it on the forum.

Regarding insulin resistance, oh my gosh, tell me about it. I used to be on two meds for diabetes. I'm not on any now. Nonetheless, it is not easy to lose weight.

There are various versions of what is loosely referred to as paleo.

I like PaNu because Dr. Harris looks at it from a metabolic perspective (not food reinactment! People will make jokes about eating bugs and such).

I haven't read Atkins for years, I may, but there are some differences. As far as I can tell from all the menus posted around here, Atkins followers seem to eat processed foods. Paleo diets generally consist meats and food you could eat off the land without having to cook it or process it. There is generally the belief that modern farming methods create unhealthy food (emphasis on local fresh organic and grass-fed meat and dairy, free-range/pastured eggs and chicken--if I have the terms incorrect, someone please correct).

Here is an example. Mayonaise. I see it on Atkins menus all the time. Paleo recipes either exclude it or tell you to use a paleo mayonaise. Excluding mayonaise is an excellent idea; it is made with polyunsaturated fats. Processed oils out of soy, corn, seeds, it isn't natural. These fats are not healthy anyway, they are not shelf stable (go rancid but you can't taste it), or oxidize when you heat them. These are thought to interfere with weight loss.

There are many more differences.

Here are Dr. Harris steps to get started:

PaNu - Get Started

How to lose weight:

PaNu - P

A post about Type II Diabetes:

PaNu - P

This diet does allow for butter and cheese if it is not problematic, but it is suggested:

http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2...ohydrates.html

There is so much more great information there. I hope you check it out.

I have Primal Blueprint. It is too high in carbs for an insulin resistant such as myself in my opinion. It is fun to read, but not my plan.

Also, I have read so many recommendations to read Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution that I bought the book. I have just started it, so I can't really comment on it yet.

First of all, congratulations on joining the 5% club with your A1C! Despite your lack of weight loss, you must feel great about your improved prognosis!

Yeah, insulin resistance sucks:( I'm sorry that you are dealing with this.

A couple things that may help....while at Curves, you may want to start weight training. It does not have to be really hard or anything, but even a light weight training program will help you cut back on insulin resistance.

Also, have you tried the Atkin's fat fast? It is specifically designed for people with major metabolic resistance, who cannot lose weight on the normal program. It is a tough program but you do it for only 3-5 days, and it should, in theory, help kick start your metabolism.

Otherwise, I wish you the best of luck!

At the 'low end' of hypo, you are definitely hypothyroid. Unfortunately, the synthroid takes at least 6 weeks to be fully effective. Your doctor should be checking you at that point to see what your levels are and whether or not the dosage needs to be increased. Usually a person has to begin at a lower dosage so that the body can get used to it. Sometimes it takes 6 months to be optimally medicated so that your T4 and T3 levels are in optimum range.

Make sure your doctor tests BOTH T4 and T3 (many only test T3) because if your T3 is too low, it is virtually impossible to lose weight.

As Key Tones pointed out (with lots of great links), the primary difference between Paleo/Primal and most LC plans is the focus on real, whole foods. Both discourage eating anything that comes in a box or jar. If it has ingredients that cannot be understood without a chemistry degree it is NotFood (tm). Primal at least does not necessary encourage LC, the recommendation is 150G of carbs or less depending on your goals. I'd recommend, in additional to Dr Harris' site, checking out Mark's Daily Apple if you're interested.

Paleo and Primal are both strictly no grains, none, they are NotFood (tm).
Strict Paleo does not allow any dairy. Primal and Dr Harris' PauNu do allow dairy for those that are not lactose intolerant.

Paleo and Primal encourage excercise as do all LC plans. The biggest difference in Primal (I can't comment on Paleo or PauNu) is that chronic cardio is not recommended, ever. Primal recommends lots of moving around slowly, sprinting occasionally, playing a lot, and moving around heavy things. The concentration is on functional excercise and not becomming a tread mill track star.

While I really like the Primal program and believe in it, I'm not sure that it's the best recommendation for someone having trouble losing. I'd highly recommend removing as much processed NotFood(tm) from your diet as possible. Quit eating anything with Soy especially. Get your thyroid optomized and your Vit D status checked. Others have better advice on that than I do. Good luck!

Yes, insulin resistance sucks! I can vouch for that!!!

I have read about the fat fast--I think this is a similar, but better approach to a similar concept 5% carbs, 10-15% protein (you need to ease into this) 80-85% fat, pretty much requires use of butter and he says cream (I don't--acne), and he has more recommendations here:

PaNu - P

Hope your Thyroid and other issues resolve soon :hugs:

I agree with Tamara, great explanation of Primal :cool: I recently bought the book and like the ten laws, which I find very sensible:

1. Eat lots of plants and animals
2. Avoid poisonous things.
3. Move frequently at a slow pace
4. Lift heavy things
5. Sprint once in a while
6. Get adequate sleep
7. Play
8. Get adequate sunlight
9. Avoid stupid mistakes
10. Use you brain

I will follow it all except for one thing - fruit. He encourages the consumption of fruit, which I will definitely stay away from until I am at a better weight.

I have used to ******.com, so I know I was doing 20 carbs or less a day, and I have put my meals up here before with lots of suggestions but nothing works for me. I am really just at a loss, as I said I wouldn't stop eating like this just because my numbers health wise have gone down. My endo increased my dosage today after being on the synthroid for two months I am still on the low side.
but this is my meals

Breakfast

3 pieces of turkey bacon cooked in butter
2 small pancakes (2 tbls of organic flax, 1 egg, sf french vanilla syrup)
2 scrambled eggs with sliced cheese on top

Lunch
lamb and chicken kabob
grilled eggplant (sometimes)
or
2 pieces of pizza (mozz with egg)


Dinner
hamburger patties or lamb steak or chicken
salad
some type of vegetable

if I eat a snack or dessert it is peanut butter cups made with natural peanut butter and coconut oil that are less than a carb each

I drink water, tea, and once in awhile a diet coke

Thank you everybody for you comments

Laurie, your menu looks great to me carb-wise. The only thing I would look into is the SF syrup, some people report it spikes their blood sugar.

Have you tried the fat fast Dr. Atkins outlines in DANDR? Also, there is an egg fast thread here where people have great result kick-starting their metabolism.

I think that once your Thyroid is helped, you will have a much easier time losing weight. :hugs:

:hugs: - I'm sure you're really frustrated. I lost the majority of my weight on Atkins, without even thinking about calories - menu similar to yours. I got down to about 175ish and couldn't go past that weight for years. For the most part I was content with it, felt good and accepted that was all I could do.

I tried HCG this past year and was finally able to lose the last 30-40lbs that I've been trying to lose the past 4-5 years. It's not for everyone, and you'll hear it doesn't work etc., but for me, it worked well, and quickly. It was a radical change from eating as much as I wanted for years. I've learned a lot about hunger and portions etc. Hopefully I'll be able to maintain the new weight for the rest of my days. I like living LC and expect to stay that way all my life. Sounds like you're seeing a decent Dr. Maybe ask for suggestions from him/her.

Good luck!! :)

BNB, I'm sorry there are so many challenges. I'm one of those who has them, too.

I, too, think you might find some answers and help in reading Dr. Kurt Harris' website.

Combining his recommendations with Dr. Richard Bernstein's put the puzzle together for me.

I wish you all the best. :)

Based on what you posted, and based on Dr. Harris' recommendations (Paleo) for those with a broken metabolism (I cannot advise you, really, I'm not a doctor of course), my thoughts are:

1) protein may be high, fat may be lower than ideal for an insulin resistant type.

2) too many meals (for an insulin resistant type - eating fewer meals results in less insulin releases and therefore less insulin overall during the day after the adjustment--I was eating too many times)

3) perhaps try Intermittent Fasting (hard! I know, I need two meals, I'm working on this--be sure to ask your doctor)

4) try cinnamon (cinnamon sticks in hot water or weak coffee, no sweetener). It is supposed to help with insulin resistance.

5) avoid flax/avoid fiber. He calls flax oil "furniture polish." Stick with ghee, butter, animal fats, or coconut oil. He has long posts about problems with fiber.

I am trying this approach right now myself. Actually, what I've said here is exactly what applies to me. This thread is helping to solidify what I am studying for myself.

Below is the information in the link I posted earlier from Dr. Kurt Harris. This is for the metabolically resistant person. There is more info all over his site, not all of it here in this one post:

How to Lose Weight

Thursday, August 27, 2009 at 10:56AM

Let's see if I can write the world's shortest description of everything you can do to lose weight. OK, you'll have to read some of the rest of the site to make sense of it, I suppose. But it will still be pretty short.

PaNu is not a weight loss program. It is a healthy eating regime that also happens to be the most powerful and simplest (not easiest, necessarily) regime that I have encountered to achieve your genetically determined normal lean body weight. Being at a particular weight is simply evidence of a having a healthy metabolism, and should obviously not be a health goal in itself.

If you have trouble losing weight following the first 4 or 5 steps, you may have what I unscientifically call a "broken metabolism".

If you have a broken metabolism, with stubborn residual insulin resistance (liver, not adipocytes), or your leptin receptors are screwed up by WGA from wheat and your satiety switch is broken, or any of a number of theoretical metabolic derangements from years of eating the standard american diet, you may have trouble losing weight without going VLC (say 5-10% carbs) and you might indeed gain weight if you eat excess protein beyond your needs.

The extra insulin response to excess dietary protein may simply drive more fat storage. I would not expect this in most people, but it may happen in some. See this.

What to do?

If you can't lose weight and you need to, you must cut carbs until you have ketones in your urine. Ketones in your blood is ketosis. Ketones in your urine is ketonuria. Ketonuria is proof of ketosis. GNG (gluconeogenesis) and ketosis is the sure way to prove your insulin levels are low as you can get them.

Then, as dietary fat has the least effect on serum insulin, and dietary protein has a small but measurable effect, eat only the minimum necessary protein (.8 -1 g/Kg/d) and the rest as fat.

5% carbs should guarantee GNG and ketonuria. (This will mean almost no vegetables and no sugary salad dressings, etc. Your food must be naked except for healthy fats)

15 -10% protein (drop it as you adapt)

80-85% fat

This, by the way, is ridiculously easy to achieve if you use butter and cream, but a bit impractical otherwise. This is close to Kwasniewski's Optimal Diet. Read the book.

A few more things not mentioned by Kwasniewski but that I think are important:

It is helpful to absolutely eliminate fructose from your diet if you have any issues with weight. The SAD (standard american diet) has absurdly high amounts of fructose that destroy your liver's insulin sensitivity. Fructose may be the single biggest cause of broken metabolism.

The second biggest (or maybe first, who knows?) cause of broken metabolism may be gluten grains. Wheat germ agglutinin (WGA) binds leptin receptors and insulin receptors, in addition to nasty effects on the immune system and gut. So even if you have no immunologic issues like celiac disease, and you don't believe like I do that almost everyone has subclinical damage to the gut from gluten grains, wheat may be making it harder for you to lose weight by affecting your satiety switch and by directly causing fat storage.

Excess Omega 6 linoleic acid ("the third horseman") probably also has an effect on weight loss, as there is evidence that excess n-3 linoleic acid contributes to the inflammation in the liver that is part of metabolic syndrome. Just one more reason to keep industrial vegetable oils limited.

Stick to white rice and potatoes if you absolutely must eat starch. No wheat, barley or rye.

Try eating one big meal a day to satiety, then allow yourself nothing but decaf coffee with whole cream or fast the rest of the time. I eat like this about three days a week. It is really easy once you are keto-adapted*

It is, I believe, easier to go cold turkey from carbohydrates than taper off. Teasing yourself with cereals and bagels is more difficult than simply enduring a few days of nausea or hypoglycemia. Just carry a container of sliced oranges or apples and eat a slice if you are hypogycemic. (Yes, there is a bit of fructose there, you are just eating it while you adapt to ketosis) Totally avoid grains and starches. Use fruit for emergencies. It will pass.

*I define keto-adapted as being conditioned enough to ketosis that you can easily fast without getting light headed or hypoglycemic. I think VLC (50g) or ZC (5-10 g) folks are all ketoadapted. LC (100g/day carbs) not as much. Even if not in ketosis all the time, KA folks can slip in and out of it easily and their metabolism has all the machinery for ketosis and GNG constructed. Caution: metabolic speculation informed by experience.

KT, thank you so much for the excellent information. You have listed everything concisely. I found it extremely helpful for my situation, as I also lose weight veeeery slowly. I've been reading Dr. Harris' blog, but it will be a while before I'm through.

One thing I know for sure ... once I started following the recommendation to change my fat to protein ratio with heavy advantage on fat, my many-month stall ended and I started losing again. In addition, grains are out of my diet forever.

First of all - a big huge congratulations for sticking with a woe that is GOOD FOR YOUR body, even if you haven't really lost any weight! Kudos for that, because a lot of people would have said, "screw it" and that's the wrong mentality.

I personally ordered The Primal Blueprint from Mark's site called Marks Daily Apple. It's an excellent book. I originally started with Atkins way back when. I found that I naturally tend to go towards a more primal eating plan, and so I got the book. Just enjoyed his take on it. Anyway, Paleo is more strict. Primal allows some dairy, if you're tolerant of it. They're all slightly different, and I think it just depends on each individual person's preference. Ultimately any of them will be better than the Standard American Diet regarding your blood pressure and stuff. It could be that dropping all grains and possibly dairy could make you lose weight. Anyway, just wanted to say congrats anyway, because I think that what you've done so far is amazing, inspite of the non weight loss.

You're welcome Eliza!

I have found so much help through the board. I didn't know anything about Dr. Harris until recently.

KT, I'm glad I have found his blog ... my LC knowledge is going through a process, a metamorphosis of sorts ... it is so exciting to learn all these new things. Just as I thought I already knew everything there is about LC :laugh:

One thing I like is that he says it's OK to eat one large meal per day. I've been trying to battle the idea of three squares I was raised with. I haven't been hungry since I upped my fat, but I've been forcing myself to eat. I will try what he suggests on some days of the week and see how it goes.

Thanks so much again! :shake:

Oh my gosh, you are welcome. It is so nice to chat with you! Here and on Auntie Em's thread and other threads.

I am struggling with this as well, because I am used to three meals and a snack...and tasting while cooking (more snacking)! That is just releasing insulin all day long...little chance to lose weight that way!

I am having coconut oil in weak coffee with cinnamon sticks. It tastes good without sweetener! I can't believe I like it, but I do. I am having this in the morning instead of breakfast (without the oil), and having this as well in the afternoon (definitely need the coconut oil then). I will start sipping this (decaf) in the evenings when I'm cooking (I cook at night, after dinner, because I have such a long commute to work I can't make it home in time to cook before dinner--so dinner is usually a reheating event).

Thanks everybody really....:hugs:
It means alot to have support

so I have a couple of questions as I am trying to go through all this info

Dairy would include eggs, cheese, and heavy whipping cream Right? I feel stupid for asking

Also I try to add alot of fat by adding hwc to my eggs and lots of butter on my stuff, how can I add more fat

and here is the real big question
I have fatty liver, so if my liver doesn't work very well how I am supposed to deal with eating all this fat???

Lauri, it is my understanding that eggs (not dairy) and HWC (mostly fat) are just fine. I use them daily and am still losing. There are no stupid questions ... we are all here to help each other with info.

I know nothing about fatty liver, but I'm sure someone here does and I hope they respond. You may also want to post the fatty liver question on the health boards here. I hope you find an answer. I will also be looking into this and if I find anything, I'll come back here and post it.

Much luck and I hope your stall ends very very soon :hugs:

KT, I should try that decaf and HWC also ... CO upsets my stomach a lot, so I'll see what I can substitute it with. I once put butter in my coffee :hyst: almost gave DH a heart attack!!! :eek: Actually, since the butter was unsalted, there wasn't much weird flavor from it, but I don't know if I can repeat that feat.

Actually I think you are very smart to cook at night if you can't make it on time in the evening due to your commute. Mine is "only" 1.5 hrs per day combined , and I understand the time issues it creates. I've tried freezing dinners, but I usually forget to take them out of the freezer to defrost on time for dinner.

Lauri, it seems that you are on the right track as far as following the right diet for your fatty liver. :high5: I found this article on the UT Southwestern Medical Center website. (underlining and bold face are mine)

http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/utsw/c...es/513557.html

It appears that LC WOE will actually burn off some of the fat in the liver.

Oh, gosh, that is funny with the butter! But if you think about it, coconut oil is a weird thing to put in coffee, seriously. There is this oil slick just rolling around on top!

Funny you mention the coconut oil tummy upset. I think my daughter might be having the same issue--she just told me her stomach has been bothering her all week. I'm going to stop using it in her food for a while. Hmph. Thanks for mentioning it.

You're welcome!

RE: Dairy--already answered I see. Just know you should feel comfortable asking questions.

How to add more fat? Oh my gosh, dip your meats in butter like you are eating lobster! Peter at Hyperlipid makes six egg yolks in butter for breakfast! Can you imagine? I was thinking of doing something like this--barely cooking yolks in a lot of butter--for a gravy!

Fawn (Misty Humphreys) says butter is the perfect condiment.

I don't know how to address fatty liver. I second asking on the boards and reading up on it. It looks like Eliza has give you a start!

I have started doing this (without knowing it was part anyone's approach) to lose, and it really helps me. However, I did do the fat fast to kick start my losing again, and that worked really well. This is a lot (as you say) like the fat fast, especially when it becomes the 'modified' fat fast after the 1st 3 days.

Funny you should mention eating fewer times per day! I have often wondered if the idea that we should eat continuously throughout the day (graze) was bad for a diabetic, because of the insulin secretion...! Glad to hear others have thought of that too!

My challenge would be weaning myself off of eating 3 times per day...I never used to eat breakfast, but since getting diabetes I have done so, in an attempt to stop my blood sugar rising further in the 'morning' hours after waking (since I have had slightly higher numbers upon waking-dawn phenomenon) or to at least mitigate that rise. And I'd always heard that eating breakfast 'kick-starts' your metabolism for the day. Not sure if I believed that but that is what they say;)

I skipped lunch one day at work, and ended up STARVING by the time I got home. I was smart about it and did not eat anything off plan, but had a protein shake to hold me over until dinner. So really, it was just a painfully delayed lunch! Then again, I think I had slipped out of ketosis at that point. It is much easier for me to eat very small meals or not eat if I am in ketosis. Especially when the meals I do eat are nearly all fat. Macadamia nuts are my friend:)

I would make a 'shake' with CO in it. Heavy cream, ice, CO, cocoa and sweetener (or a protein powder, depends on how much protein you want in the diet. I have to limit protein so I should be careful) and blend up...the CO hardens into little yummy bits in the sweet shake. It tastes really nice, actually. Hmmm....now I want a CO shake for lunch!;)

KT, if your DS's tummy is bothering her, it is probably the CO. I hope stopping it will help her tummy troubles. At least it would be worth it giving it a try to see if it clears up. Some of us just can't take CO. And trust me, I've tried in all kinds of concoctions. Same result - stomach pain. Now I use mine as a hand cream and overall moisturizer and this is the only way I can "absorb" it, by bypassing the digestive system. And it makes an awesome moisturizer, too :D

Stardust, I may try this and give CO one more chance, sounds way yummy, but I have no hope. Taking CO, even a teaspoonful, has been painful. Just noticed you are from Copenhagen. I visited Denmark for 3 months once and have some good friends in Copenhagen. Just wanted to say I have fond memories of it and really enjoyed the casual and calm lifestyle and the people there.

When I started CO, I was warned that it could cause tummy troubles. I started with .5 tsp. and even at that, I had issues. I persevered and can now (a year later) consume it without any problem and up to 2 tbsp. at once. I mention this because it could be true for you as well - you may just have to slowly get used to it?:dunno: