Lacto-Paleo/Primal Support thread

[ChristineCQ]

Thanks for the great links!

[Auntie Em]

Christine, thank you for your kind thoughts. Your avatar photo is splendid.

Here is another primer, by Dr. Emily Deans, on how to begin and keep a pastoral diet. This primer would be a nice method for those who wish to ease into this WOE.


Does anyone here have a reference link for Dr. Ravnskov's recommendations for salt intake?

[Speck333]

Auntie Em you are so kind. And thank you for starting the thread. Being who I am and what I do, I can't help but spew forth whatever I know on a topic related to anthropology if I sense the slightest interest! haha!

[Auntie Em]

Speck, how nice of you to post. Thank you for your lovely thoughts.

I really appreciate your posts. Whatever you think might be of interest here, would be grand reading, IMO. Hope you are doing very well.

[Chasintrail]

Originally Posted by Auntie Em

Does anyone here have a reference link for Dr. Ravnskov's recommendations for salt intake?

Auntie Em - I'm just finishing up his newest book, he didn't mention salt in it at all. I dont' have a lot of time to dig, but here's his website: The Cholesterol Myths
(hope I'm allowed to link that)

It has a link to the THINCS site also.

[Auntie Em]

Tamara, thanks for your post. I have read the entire site a couple of times and could not find his recommendations on salt. I have read mention of some statement of his on several sites, but can not find the original source.

Will keep looking.

To those who have not read "The Cholesterol Myths", it is very much worth reading.

Tamara, thanks again.

[Chasintrail]

I should have known better than to doubt your google-fu

BTW - his new book is pretty much an updated version of The Cholesterol Myth, it's called Fat and Cholesterol are Good for You.

[maria40nc]

Wow... thank you everyone for answering my questions and for the encouragement!

I've ordered the Primal Blueprint book and can't wait to read it. I'm really hoping it is the "in-between" I've been looking for. I just need to eat totally clean for awhile to get my system cleared out to re-gain balance.

[Auntie Em]

Hi, Maria. I wish you much success in making your food plan more ideal for you. Hope your are doing very well. I am looking forward to your next posts.

----

In case anyone has responsibility for someone with Alzheimer's Disease, or is interested in what might prevent or help AD, Dr. Mary Newport, writes on current research and how she is helping her husband, who has AD. Reading it has given me much more information about what can cause inflammation. I have heard AD called "diabetes of the brain". Dr. Newport writes of AD being inflammation in the brain, and of some things that can cause that inflammation. Here is her blog.

She has found that coconut oil and MCT oil have helped her husband a good deal.

As ketogenesis lessens as folks get older, I find her blog fits in well with eating LC, VLC, and ZC.

Between Dr. Richard Bernstein's research, and Dr. Newport's finding, it looks to me, as though staying ketogenic has many benefits.

Sending you all best wishes for a lovely day.

[Auntie Em]

I thought I would post Mrs. Stefansson's preface to Dr. Richard MacKarness' book, Eat Fat and Grow Slim. It was her preface that gave me the courage to eat a mostly animal food diet, which I had been thinking about for some time. Her husband, the Arctic explorer, is popular among some who only eat fatty meat and water. In this preface, it is interesting to note that they ate grapefruit, cream, eggs, and butter, and drank coffee and wine, as small parts of their mostly meat diet.

The following preface wasn't put online at the above link to Dr. Richard MacKarness', Eat Fat and Grow Slim, as the online edition is from an earlier English edition. The preface is in the 1959, Doubleday and Company, New York edition. I have left the punctuation and use of italics as in the book. I put line spaces between paragraphs, rather than indenting the paragraphs.



"The Preface" to Eat Fat and Grow Slim, written by Evelyn Stefansson, April 22, 1959:

One morning at breakfast, the autumn of 1955, my explorer-anthropologist husband, Vilhjalmur Stefansson, asked me if he might return to the Stone Age Eskimo sort of all-meat diet he had thrived on during the most active part of his arctic work. Two years before, he had suffered a mild cerebral thrombosis, from which he had practically recovered. But he had not yet succeeded in losing the ten pounds of overweight his doctor wanted him to be rid of. By will power and near starvation, he had now and then lost a few of them; but the pounds always came back when his will power broke down. Doubtless partly through these failures, Stef had brown a bit unhappy, at times grouchy.

My first reaction to his Stone Age diet proposal was dismay. I have three jobs. I lecture, in and out of town, and enjoy the innumerable extracurricular activities of our New England college town of Hanover, New Hampshire. Forenoons I write books about the arctic, "for teen-agers and uninformed adults," to be able to afford the luxury of being librarian afternoons of the large polar library my husband and I acquired when we were free-lance writers and government contractors, which library now belongs to Dartmouth College. I take part in a course called the Arctic Seminar, and last winter was director. I sing in madrigal groups and act in experimental theater plays. Only by a miserly budgeting of time do I manage these things. "In addition," I thought to myself, "I am now supposed to prepare two menus!"

But aloud I said: "Of course, dear." And we began to plan.

To my astonished delight, contrary to all my previous thinking, the Stone Age diet not only proved effective in getting rid of Stef's overweight, but was also cheaper, simpler, and easier to prepare than our regular mixed diet had been. Far from requiring more time, it took less. Instead of adding housekeeping burdens, it relieved them. Almost imperceptibly Stef's diet became my diet. Time was saved in not shopping for, not preparing, not cooking, and not washing up after unrequired dishes, among them vegetables, salads, and desserts.

Some of our friends say: "We would go on a meat diet too, but we couldn't possibly afford it." That started me investigating the actual cost of the diet. Unlike salads and desserts, which often do not keep, meat is as good several days later as the day it was cooked. There is no waste. I found our food bills were lower than they had been. But I attribute this to our fondness for mutton. Fortunately for us it is an unfashionable meat, which means it is cheap. We both like it, and thanks to our deep freeze, we buy fat old sheep at anything from twenty-two to thirty-three cents a pound and proceed to live on the fat of the land. We also buy beef, usually beef marrow. European cooks appreciate marrow, but most people in our country have never even tasted it, poor things.

When you eat as a primitive Eskimo does, you live on lean and fat meats. A typical Stefansson dinner is a rare or medium sirloin steak and coffee. The coffee is freshly ground. If there is enough fat on the steak we take our coffee black, otherwise heavy cream is added. Sometimes we have a bottle of wine. We have no bread, no starchy vegetables, no desserts. Rather often we eat half a grapefruit. We eat eggs for breakfast, two for Stef, one for me, with lots of butter.

Startling improvements in health came to Stef after several weeks on the new diet. He began to lose his overweight almost at once, and lost steadily, eating as much as he pleased and feeling satisfied the while. He lost seventeen pounds, then his weight remained stationary, although the amount he ate was the same. From being slightly irritable and depressed, he became once more his old ebullient, optimistic self. By eating mutton he became a lamb.

An unlooked-for and remarkable change was the disappearance of his arthritis, which had troubled him for years and which he thought of as a natural result of aging. One of his knees was so stiff he walked up and down stairs a step at a time, and he always sat on the aisle in a theater so he could extend his stiff leg comfortably.

Several times a night he would be awakened by pain in his hips and shoulder when he lay too long on one side; then he had to turn over and lie on the other side. Without noticing the change at first, Stef was one day startled to find himself walking up and down stairs, using both legs equally. He stopped in the middle of our stairs; then walked down again and up again. He could not remember which knee had been stiff!

Conclusion: The Stone Age all-meat diet is wholesome. It is an eat-all-you-want reducing diet that permits you to forget you are dieting--no hunger pangs remind you. It saves time and money. Best of all, it improves the temperament. It somehow makes one feel optimistic, mildly euphoric.

Epilogue: Stef used to love his role of being a thorn in the flesh of nutritionists. But in 1957 an article appeared in the august journal of the American Medical Association confirming what Stef had known for years from his anthropology and his own experience. The author of this book has also popularized Stef's diet in England, with the blessing of staid British medical folk.

Was it with the faintest trace of disappointment in his voice that Stef turned to me, after a strenuous nutrition discussion, and said: "I have always been right. But now I am becoming orthodox! I shall have to find myself a new heresy."

April 22, 1959. Evelyn Stefansson

Hope this information helps a bit. I find this book most useful, even though some of the scientific theory of biochemistry has since been further researched.

---

ETA: According to this short biography, Mr. and Mrs. Stefansson started this meat diet in 1955. There is no footnote for this information, and thus, I am unable to verify the statement. Mr. Stefansson, (November 3, 1879 – August 26, 1962), seems to have kept the meat diet from 1955 to, at least, 1959, when Mrs. Stefansson wrote the preface.




In 1955 he adopted a "stone-age" diet—high-fat, low-carbohydrate, mostly meat—which he credited with helping him maintain fitness and health.

---

It would be most useful to be able to read reports later than Mrs. Stefansson's of 1959, as to how they fared, on the meat diet, from 1959 to his death in 1962, if they did, in fact, continue it. I have yet to find out if she kept the diet after he died. She died in 2009:

Evelyn Stefansson Nef, author and philanthropist, 1913-2009 | The University of Chicago
__________________

[ChristineCQ]

Great read, AM, thanks!

[Chasintrail]

Thanks Auntie Em. That was a good read.

I Love this! "I have always been right. But now I am becoming orthodox! I shall have to find myself a new heresy." I may have to adopt that myself...

While it's not always a popular idea on these boards, I believe that an animal-based, or even all meat diet is perfectly healthy as long as one consumes offal as well as more standard cuts of meat. My diet is based on animal products, veggies are a compliment and one that I enjoy. But there are many times that I eat nothing but meat and eggs due to laziness or appetite. There are too many populations that have lived on nothing but animal products that I can't comprehend the human body not being able to live this way.

Anyway, got a meeting I need to head to. Crazy day at work, hopefully I'll have time this weekend while lazing in the hotel to catch up on my blog reading.

[Auntie Em]

Christine, thank you for your kind thoughts.

Tamara, I agree, as you know.

Have you read Dr. Blake Donaldson's book, Strong Medicine? The book is about his work with his patients, both those who were overweight and those who had allergies. He put many patients on fatty meat and water, three meals per day. They were allowed a demitasse of black coffee per meal. Minimum cooked weight of meat, eight ounces. Other patients were given recommendations for one vegetable, in addition to the fatty meat and water. He also discusses green vegetables being problematic, that yellow ones cause fewer allergic reactions. After a patient's weight got to that person's normal level, he or she could add a vegetable. If the weight did not stay stable, back to fatty meat and water.

I don't know of it being posted on online, unfortunately. I found a copy through addall, the site, which tracks used books for sale, compiling abebooks, alibris, etc.

Hope your day goes well. I look forward to your next posts.

[Chasintrail]

Interesting, I'll have to see if I can track that down.

[Speck333]

Thanks for that Em! I love reading things like that and re-imagining what day to day life was like for people.
I find that some days I will also eat almost nothing but meat, cheese and eggs, butter, and cream (in my coffee). Other days I could eat my weight in veggies!

[Auntie Em]

Tamara, Dr. Donaldson's book might be available through interlibrary loan. I wanted my own copy. Hope your day is going well.

Hi, Speck. I have days of eating only animal food, and days of eating a few plants. I don't plan them. It just works out.

I've got another question for you, if you don't mind. Is there anything definitive about who the HaploX group were? I wanted to know what they ate, haha , and found much controversy.

Best wishes to all.

[Auntie Em]

Ran across this today:

Nutrition Journal | Full text | A review of fatty acid profiles and antioxidant content in grass-fed and grain-fed beef

A comparison of fatty acid profiles of grass-fed and grain-fed beef.


Here is the table in that article:

Table 2


Hope you all are doing well.

[Antlers]

Quick question, just for the inspiration of it all.

I am starting school (another time around, it feels weird to be considered an underclassman again), and although the cafeteria isn't terrible due to a culinary arts program, I still prefer to cook all my own food. I use lunch boxes similar to bento boxes and was curious:

If you were to make a zero-to-moderate-carb primal/paleo/lacto-paleo lunch box, what would you personally put in it?

Usually when I make lunch boxes I put the same meat I always eat, but cut into smaller pieces and with any extra spices packaged to the side. Not that meat is boring, but I would like some more ideas.

[Auntie Em]

Hi, Antlers. Nice to have you post.

I may not eat things that appeal to you, but here is what comes to mind at the moment.

If you have cool packs, or even better, a way to keep things hot:

Roast beef
Burgers
Hard boiled eggs
Cooked salmon
Steak
Butter or whipped cream or extra beef fat, or something else to get enough fat.

If you've got a wide-mouth Thermos for hot things:
Soup
Stew
Broth
Hot cream (with chocolate, if you eat it)
Tea with butter or beef fat (and salt, if it is cold, or you like it)

If you wish quick and easy, and can eat food from cans:

Canned chicken, salmon, corned beef, mackerel, herring, sardines
Can opener
Fork
Napkins
Trash bag

Extras:

Butter (Pastured butter, salted, sits well and helps with feeling full.)
Small container of beef fat and drippings to use to smear on hamburger or roast beef or meatloaf, etc.

Snacks if you need them:

Antlers' famous venison jerky!

Do you eat macadamia nuts or coconut oil? Those might come in handy.

For crunch:
Raw celery or turnip slices
Rutabaga is nice, if you can take how sweet it is.

Do you eat pickled vegetables?

Anything can be pickled. You could have green beans, beets, cucumbers, or a mixture of whatever appeals to you.

Pickled vegs with a bit of salt and a side of fat are nice sometimes.

Cheese:

Brie, if you can afford it, has a high fat content. Otherwise, Swiss or Cheddar. When i was still eating cheese, I found Swiss sat better with me than Cheddar. It's made by a different process.

Purified water.

Hope that helps a bit. If I think of something else, I'll put it in another post tomorrow.

I'm sure you will have the nicest lunches.

[Antlers]

Thank you for your answer, this will be very helpful. I eat a pretty high variety of foods (well, not in practice, but in theory my only real restrictions are against processed foods, grain, legumes, sugar, too many daily carbs), so most of these will work My only main issue is cost, I am very low-income... at the same time, though, I've noticed that cutting out processed foods and eating a diet that satiates me as fast as this one has chopped my food bill down considerably, so there's a win.

Originally Posted by Auntie Em

Hot cream (with chocolate, if you eat it)

You know, I've never thought about this before, but it sounds really good (not just for lunch boxes but in general).

If you wish quick and easy, and can eat food from cans:

Canned chicken, salmon, corned beef, mackerel, herring, sardines

I worked at a summer camp where the dietitians decided I didn't need food, so I used to bring stuff like this in. Lots of experience there.

Snacks if you need them:

Antlers' famous venison jerky!
Do you eat macadamia nuts or coconut oil? Those might come in handy.

Lol, if only it were famous. More food should be shaped like what it is. I don't "snack" since going VLC, I've found. I eat snack-like foods during meals, for example a little while ago I made jerky as a meal, but between meals I pretty much don't. Macadamias were another I ate at camp to get more calories... they're pricey but probably worth it. Coconut oil and butter are where my calories all seem to come from, so yup, definitely eat it.

Do you eat pickled vegetables? Anything can be pickled. You could have green beans, beets, cucumbers, or a mixture of whatever appeals to you.

I bet if I steal some dilly beans from my aunt... well, not really, she would totally give them to me. Now you've given me a craving for dilly beans.

Brie, if you can afford it, has a high fat content. Otherwise, Swiss or Cheddar. When i was still eating cheese, I found Swiss sat better with me than Cheddar. It's made by a different process.

Do you just eat brie plain? I like brie, but I've always added sugary stuff like caramel and I don't know if I'd like it without it. I'll have to try it again, looking at nutrition info it looks like it would help my nutrient ratios a lot.

I'm sure you will have the nicest lunches.

Lunches are always a conversation starter

[Speck333]

Originally Posted by Auntie Em

Hi, Speck. I have days of eating only animal food, and days of eating a few plants. I don't plan them. It just works out.

I've got another question for you, if you don't mind. Is there anything definitive about who the HaploX group were? I wanted to know what they ate, haha , and found much controversy.

Best wishes to all.

Em, I think you mean Haplogroup X. All I know about them is that this is one of the lineages of Native Americans and it's not common in Asia, which is where today's Native Americans are purported to have come from, so at first it can seem contradictory, but it's not. We know from archaeological, linguistic and now genetic data, that there were multiple migrations from the Old World to the New, via the Bering land bridge starting at about 15,000 years ago. Waves of people came at different times, and taking slightly different routes, some traveled all the way down to the tip of South America, some moved East immediately, some traveled south first then headed east until they hit the Atlantic. Today's Native Americans are not homogenous by any means, and in many cases they do not have the same prehistoric ancestry either. So, it's not surprising that we would find haplogroup diversity in them today. I haven't heard any controversy, per se, just that this group begs for more questions and more research. It is entirely possible and plausible that the ancestors of the X group that came to the New World largely died out after they left, which is why we only find very small samples of it in places like Siberia. Larger samples are apparently in Europe (I had to look this up ) and so some people are confused by that I guess, but there's no reason to find implausible the idea that some populations then split again and migrated east, eventually to make their way across the Bering Land Bridge.
This is my favorite website on this kind of stuff: https://genographic.nationalgeograph.../en/atlas.html

As for what they ate, you can only imagine based on the ecosystem of the time period. Large game, even megafuana (probably they were chasing it across Beringia to begin with) and small game, and limited vegetation (as it would have been permafrost at the time).

[Key Tones]

Antlers,

I'm undecided on my next plan, but I have read the Paleo Diet (and currently reading Primal Blueprint).

I am not willing to pay up for grass-fed beef, so I buy chicken, and the asian food market has pretty good prices on whole organic chickens. I make chicken stew (cover whole chicken, simmer in water 1 1/2 hours, add carrots, onion, celery, and two packages of frozen cauliflower and 4 chicken bullion cubes, boil one more hour, let cool, remove meat from bones, place in single serving packs).

I get the grass-fed benefits from the kerrygold butter (pretty good price at Trader Joes) and some grass-fed cheese (also from Trader Joes and Costco) - I am considering giving up dairy completely. I'm not sure yet.

I also focus on coconut milk. It's good in coffee and a coworker from Sri Lanka recommended I put it in thai tea. Oh my gosh, that is really good. The coconut milk is fairly inexpensive at the asian market, but I scored on a sale this week at PCC Natural Markets.

I'm not sure how you guys feel about sweeteners, but I am a using super-moist chocolate coconut flour brownie recipe I came up with as a vehicle for coconut milk and butter (since chicken is so low fat - I need to get the fat in). If you want the recipe, I'll post it. These are very easy to carry to work.

[Auntie Em]

Antlers, brie can be eaten plain, with berries, with a cup of hot cream (diluted with water, if desired), or pickled vegetables, or anything.

An easy method for pickled vegetables:

Put cooked vegs in a jar. Pour vinegar(s) of choice over veg. Add water, if wished.
Put in a pinch or two of salt and herbs or spices. Leave it on the counter all day.
Put in fridge before retiring.

This method is more tart than the cooking method, but works fine. Canned or frozen vegs can be used, too.

Your grandmother's dills, most likely, are full of sugar. Would she tell you what she puts in them?


Hi, KT. I do like your user name. It's nice to have you post.

How helpful that you can shop at a Trader Joe's. They do have some good choices.

I'd rather that recipes for sweets were left out of this thread.

The purpose of this thread is to give support to those eating a pastoral diet. A pastoral diet excludes the neolithic agents of disease, amongst which are artificial sweeteners and fructose.

If it is of interest, Dr. Kurt Harris' post, "Smoking Candy Cigarettes", at his blog, PaleoNu, explains why eating low carb or "Paleo" versions of SAD sweets is counterproductive. It's a grand post and well worth reading.

Best wishes to you for a lovely week-end.


Speck, thank you very much! How kind of you to post such useful information. And, thank you for the link, too. I will enjoy reading and reading. Hope you are doing very well.



Healthy, happy wishes to all.

[Auntie Em]

Here is Dr. Kurt Harris', "Get Started" list, from his blog, PaleoNu. On the blog, there are links in the list to other pages, which give explanations and references for the recommendations. It is well worthwhile to read his entire blog, including his answers to visitors' comments.

This is merely to give a "nutshell" introduction:

PaNu - A pastoral diet that can improve your health by emulating the evolutionary metabolic milieu.

The 12 steps remove the neolithic agents of disease in an efficient and practical manner

How do you do it?

Here is a 12-step list of what to do. Go as far down the list as you can in whatever time frame you can manage. The further along the list you stop, the healthier you are likely to be. There is no counting, measuring, or weighing. You are not required to purchase anything specific from me or anyone else. There are no special supplements, drugs or testing required.*

1. Eliminate sugar (including fruit juices and sports drinks that contain HFCS) and all foods that contain flour.

2. Start eating proper fats - Use healthy animal fats or coconut fat to substitute fat calories for calories that formerly came from sugar and flour. Drink whole cream or coconut milk.

3. Eliminate gluten grains. Limit grains like corn and rice, which are nutritionally poor.

4. Eliminate grain and seed derived oils (cooking oils) Cook with Ghee, butter, animal fats, or coconut oil.

5. Favor ruminants like beef, lamb and bison for your meat. Eat eggs and some fish.

6. Make sure you are Vitamin D replete. Get daily midday sun or consider supplementation.

7. 2 or 3 meals a day is best. Don't graze like a herbivore.

8. Adjust your 6s and 3s. Pastured (grass fed) dairy and grass fed beef or bison has a more optimal 6:3 ratio, more vitamins and CLA. A teaspoon or two of Carlson's fish oil (1-2 g DHA/EPA) daily is good compensatory supplementation if you eat grain-fed beef or no fish.

9. Proper exercise - emphasizing resistance and interval training over long aerobic sessions.

10. Most modern fruit is just a candy bar from a tree. Go easy on bags of sugar like apples. Stick with berries and avoid watermelon which is pure fructose. Eat in moderation.

11. Eliminate legumes

12. If you are allergic to milk protein or concerned about theoretical risks of casein, you can stick to butter and cream and avoid milk and soft cheeses.

[Antlers]

Originally Posted by Auntie Em

Your grandmother's dills, most likely, are full of sugar. Would she tell you what she puts in them?

My aunt's, the only pickling my grandma does are fridge pickles (which are, though, pretty good and don't have sugar). Some of my aunt's canned veggies have a lot of sugar, some don't have any. She'll tell me what she puts in them, she's not the kind of person who wouldn't.

[Auntie Em]

Hi, Antlers. Those homemade pickles sound super. I'm glad she'll tell you. Some keep those recipes as well guarded secrets.

Hope your week-end is going very nicely.

[Antlers]

My family doesn't really have "well guarded secrets" as far as recipes go, not from each other anyway. My family is boring like that

[Auntie Em]

Antlers, I can tell they are lovely by how you are.

Lucky you to have homemade pickles from loved ones.

I do hope your beautiful reindeer jerky catches on. I sent the blog page to a friend and requested specially shaped jerky.

Have you got a freezer full of venison?

[Key Tones]

Auntie Em,

Thanks. I will respect your wishes and avoid posting sweets (neolithic-looking paleo recipes).

I love the PaNu blog! I would love to be that hard-core. I will read this. I think staying immersed will help it "take."

I stumbled into the Paleo diet last year by searching on "Omega-3" in Amazon and buying up the books that turned up results. I could not believe everything I learned. Everything I had read about allergies and food sensitivies came together - I really believe the cause of modern health problems are dietary.

I even read up on the raw food diets. They have good points - I think it is generally true that if it doesn't make you sick when you eat it raw, it is probably OK. I'm just not that hard core. I'm a weakling. I like cooked foods.

Where I disagree with some of the raw foodies - fruit makes me ill. My mother used to say the same thing, and when I was young and fruit didn't bother me, I used to think she was crazy (she decided she was alergic to fruit), but now I find that I cannot eat most fruit. I researched it, and I found that some fruits have a lot of sorbitol, but I can't explain why other fruits make me so sick (I can't figure out the differences between some fruits that are OK and some that make me feel horrible). I can eat low-sugar fruits. This took me back to the idea of the Paleo diet - that this makes sense for me.

Beans make me violently ill. Grains make me bloat up and lethargic. Lactose is becoming problematic. I'm not sure about other dairy - I just found out that dairy creates an insulin response much larger than can be accounted for by the protein and carbohydrate. I am insulin-resistant as it is. I'm mulling over giving up dairy.

The idea that we were never meant to eat the modern diet is incredibly appealing.

I'm sure I would only become healthier if I were hard-core paleo. I hope to achieve it someday.

[Auntie Em]

Hi, KT. I think it's super you are reading, making steps and thinking through what fits for you. Thanks very much for helping to keep this Primal/Lacto-Paleo/Pastoral thread an on-plan place, away from the things that cause folks so many troubles.

When I found Dr. Harris' website, PaleoNu, it fit me as though he had written the whole website for folks who had walked similar paths to mine. I had already been eating according to many of his recommendations for a number of years. I just kept going.

I have noticed that it seems to be easier for those of us who have some serious health challenges to keep a very abstinent way of eating. It also appears that most of us have quite a few wrinkles and grey hairs. I am one of those who can not afford to endanger my health. Leo41 has posted some amazing things about her WOE and health, which I have found quite helpful. Looweewoo's posts help me a great deal, too. I mention them, in case their approaches could be of help to others. I hope we aren't too boring. The ways we eat seem strict to some. Leaving out things that cause problems feels so grand, we just keep leaving out things.

KT, every time I see your avatar, I smile. Your username and avatar are heartwarming and cheery.

I wish you much joy and success in your steps and keeping a WOE that suits you.

It's lovely to have you posting here. Am sending you best wishes.