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Old 02-09-2010, 08:53 AM   #1
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Paleo Party

PaNu - What is PaNu or Paleo Nutrition

For guidelines, please view Dr. Kurt Harris' website PaNu.

This thread is created for anyone interested in "getting back to basics" with their diet or anyone interested in learning more. The goal is getting healthy, listening to our bodies, working WITH our bodies, and setting ourselves up for long term success in health. Since this is generally a weight loss forum, the idea behind putting this here is that once we are healthy, our physiques will follow and self-regulate.

Everyone's plan will be a little bit different, as everyone has different nutritional needs. It's nice to compare what we're tweaking for the sake of comparison.

We're here to learn and support each other and have a good time doing it.

This thread is open for those who are interested, practicing or not.

Last edited by JazzleBug; 02-09-2010 at 09:37 AM..
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Old 02-09-2010, 08:54 AM   #2
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Okay, Minnas. How's day one going?

I haven't had any cheese. Just sayin'...
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Old 02-09-2010, 09:19 AM   #3
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Woo Hoo! Day 1 is going well so far (1 hour into it I haven't had enough time to screw anything up just yet)

Drinking my second cup of java with a boatload of cream in it. It is yummy! Sure beats almond milk which makes my coffee the dreaded "skim-milk grey." I am using 2 drops of stevia to take the bite out of the coffee but its not enough to give a sweet taste. (Hey, baby steps! I guess this is the other PaNu issue I'll have besides eating infrequently. I do use a bit of Stevia. Ah, so sue me, lol!)

I plan to eat my first meal at noon. The day is set up for 4 mini meals and will have hot tea with some cream it in throughout the day. I was a bit carbed up but have been VLC for the last few days so I think the water weight is off so I don't expect much in the way of loss for this week. Just looking for hunger relief and feeling generally good.

Jazzy, did you dream of cheese last night?? Poor baby.
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Old 02-09-2010, 09:31 AM   #4
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Yay!

What is with gray coffee? I hate that. It's funny, 'cause it's just the appearance. Is the almond milk good in it, though? I like my coffee full-bodied, not watered down in taste and mouth-feel. I think that's why I like HWC so much.

I think we're doing two meals today. If left to our own devices, we usually eat around 11:00 and again at around 6:00.

I did NOT dream of cheese last night, thankyouverymuch. My resolve is still strong - no cravings for it today so far, but I am on my second cup of coffee. This only happens when DH is home, but fortunately, he makes smaller cups than I do.

My vitamin order should be coming in today. The D3 that I've been taking is based in corn oil, but I didn't realize that until I'd already taken a few. My new vitamin D is olive oil based, so that makes me happy. I've also got CLA and GLA coming in.

Oh, crap. I'm gonna have to pull the mozzarella off my lasagna tonight! Silly girl.
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Old 02-09-2010, 09:37 AM   #5
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Question--are you figuring your carbs by percent or an actual gram number. I think Dr. Harris recommends approx 50 grams, but I am guessing that you might be lower? Also, for your carb sources, what are you using?

Trying to get a plan together for myself...advice would be appreciated!
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Old 02-09-2010, 09:49 AM   #6
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Question--are you figuring your carbs by percent or an actual gram number. I think Dr. Harris recommends approx 50 grams, but I am guessing that you might be lower? Also, for your carb sources, what are you using?

Trying to get a plan together for myself...advice would be appreciated!
I, personally, am going by percentage. My carbs are typically <10, but days like yesterday, I was really, really wanting a salad, so I had a nice big one with some cherry tomatoes and a tiny amount of red onions. It's all rather variable for me, as long as my fat is high and carbs are always under 20 grams. I actually ended up eating too much before I realized it, so that's something I need to work on still...

My carb sources are eggs and veggies. Once in a great while, I'll have a handful of fresh blueberries or macadamia nuts (I have to watch the macadamia nuts - I go craaaaazy over the crunchy, buttery texture and taste). DH is doing this also, and he includes a tiny bit of raw honey in place of stevia or artificial sugars. I'm terrified of waking my rampant sugar cravings, though, so I stay away.

I don't want anyone to think that this is a "my way or the highway" thread. I am, by no means, an authority on this WOE/WOL. I'm still learning, but am so excited by what I'm finding and learning and EXPERIENCING. I'm still learning about my body's cues for different nutrients, but without the simple carbs coursing through my body, creating panic and anxiety around food with cravings, I'm excited that so far into this journey, I *AM* able to decipher quite a bit. Never before in my life. LOL I attribute much of that to how fat affects my brain, too. I've done low cal, low carb and it was NOT a good mix for me...
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:33 AM   #7
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Question--are you figuring your carbs by percent or an actual gram number. I think Dr. Harris recommends approx 50 grams, but I am guessing that you might be lower? Also, for your carb sources, what are you using?

Trying to get a plan together for myself...advice would be appreciated!
I think Dr. Harris is very flexible on numbers. He, himself, seems to do carbs around that level and his fat is only 65%-ish and that works for him. He is not trying to lose weight though (that I have read) He is careful not to dictate numbers to others though. He certainly approves of a very high fat menu. He approves of no vegetation. I think you just have to figure out what will work for you.

If you are still new or struggling with LC I would encourage you not to be too strict with yourself as far as the paleo stuff goes. PaNu outlines 12 steps to get started and that might be a good thing for you to follow. Steps are good when this is a radical change in thinking about your food. Just don't be too hard on yourself.

I am a stickler for people following the plan they claim to be following but paleo is more a philosophy than a plan. Atkins if very, very clear cut about most thing but paleo is more of a "do what works best for you under these guidelines" so don't get hung up on right and wrong. Remember your carb count trumps everything else at this stage in your game. IMO anyway. No matter what stick to LC and you will find your way be it to paleo or something else.
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Old 02-09-2010, 12:18 PM   #8
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Well it's about 11:00 and I am hungry. However, I only had 1/4 cup of hwc with my coffee not the 1/2 cup I had planned. I decided to save some for my afternoon tea(s). That may be the issue. Tomorrow I will use the 1/2 cup in the am and see if that helps.

I'm actually going to go make some tea with hwc right now to see if that quells the hunger. I had planned to eat my first meal at noon and I'm sure I can make it until then....but that chicken better LOOK OUT!
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Old 02-09-2010, 12:41 PM   #9
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Drink your water, too. Don't forget that. If you're adequately hydrated, it will help.

I'm craving cheese. I'm not hungry, but I want it.
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Old 02-09-2010, 12:55 PM   #10
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Honestly I can't do plain water. It makes me completely nauseated. I have to drink it with some brewed tea or cucumber water or something like that. I'll start some cucumber water and have lots of that later on.

I accidentally made green tea and then had to add cream to that which is kind of yuck and it has made me queasy. Gawd, could I whine anymore this morning??? Whaaaaaaa!

The chicken is shivering it's boots right now. 6 more minutes till attack!
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:02 PM   #11
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LOL Honey, if you're hungry, why not just eat? No point in being miserable.

Cucumber water? That sounds tasty. How do you make it?
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Old 02-09-2010, 01:50 PM   #12
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LOL Honey, if you're hungry, why not just eat? No point in being miserable.

Cucumber water? That sounds tasty. How do you make it?
Well, it's a bit tricky. You dice up a bunch of cucumber and put it in some water then let it sit for a couple of hours or even overnight. The cucumber water fairy arrives and does her thing and you get delish water, lol.

I love this stuff! I first had it at a day spa. Some people add lemon and/or mint to it but I just like it plain cucumber. I keep refilling the pitcher throughout the day until the cucs look kinda sad. You can even keep it overnight and drink the next day. You can't really screw it up.

I do about half a cuc to a 2 quarts of water maybe? You can do more but this gives me just enough. I do prefer it when it's had a chance to sit overnight.

I was trying to skip breakfast and only eat over the period of say 6-7 hours (noonish to 6:00ish) since "they" seem to prefer this type of eating schedule it seems. I'm willing to play with it but that was the plan for today anyway.
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Old 02-09-2010, 04:32 PM   #13
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Wow you guys, this is just great! Thanks Stephanie for starting it. You guys are doing a terrific job. The switchover to a paleo-type diet seems pretty drastic at first but once you get going and start reaping the benefits of a high fat diet you won't want to look back. Dr. Harris provides some good guidelines and a lot of science behind the information he provides. He also provides links to other good sites.

The D-3 supplements are good--and yes you have to watch out for the corn oil filler in some brands. Don't forget to add cod liver oil too.

Minnas, once you get completely keto-adapted and get your fat good and high, you will naturally only eat once or twice a day. It still varies for me. Yesterday I only ate once, and today I ate twice.

You guys just rock!
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Old 02-09-2010, 05:14 PM   #14
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Wow you guys, this is just great! Thanks Stephanie for starting it. You guys are doing a terrific job. The switchover to a paleo-type diet seems pretty drastic at first but once you get going and start reaping the benefits of a high fat diet you won't want to look back. Dr. Harris provides some good guidelines and a lot of science behind the information he provides. He also provides links to other good sites.

The D-3 supplements are good--and yes you have to watch out for the corn oil filler in some brands. Don't forget to add cod liver oil too.

Minnas, once you get completely keto-adapted and get your fat good and high, you will naturally only eat once or twice a day. It still varies for me. Yesterday I only ate once, and today I ate twice.

You guys just rock!
Girl, keto-adapted is my middle name! Honestly I'm not doing that much different but upping the fat and eating less food. I really wanted to try this higher level of fat to see if it would do something for my hunger (something lower level of fat in the 65-70% range does not do) so this is a long time coming. Not sure I'm really paleo but I'm not far off. But I've never been far off except for eating almond butter and maybe a few other questionable things from time to time.

My big issue is that my body does NOT self-regulate to a level of calories that will give me weight loss. I know you want to b i t c h-slap me Teri for saying that but it's true! I will naturally eat at 2500-3000 calories and even at ZC/VLC I will gain weight. Listen I have done this over and over and get the same result. My body wants too many calories to lose or even maintain. I don't know why but it does. I have way too much money invested in massive amounts of plastic surgery to let an experiment that has me gaining weight go on for too long. Not gonna happen. So while I know the ultimate of paleo is to let your body do what it wants I don't have that luxury. Granted I haven't done strict PALEO this way but VLC is so close to paleo I don't think there's any difference.

Eating once or twice a day seems impossible for me. If I eat to satisfaction without stuffing myself I am hungry again in about 2 hours and need to eat again after 3 hours. I am staying open minded about this but with my history of low carb I don't anticipate going Paleo will give me different results. But who knows?
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Old 02-09-2010, 05:36 PM   #15
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Hi Teri!

Minnas, whether you need to count calories or not, you can still do this if the philosophy appeals to you. As you've read, I'm sure, it's basically a one size fits all WOL with tweaks here and there. Make it your own, girl. Or don't! It's really okay! We've all got to make ourselves happy. I do hope that you are able to experience what Teri and I are experiencing with the lack of hunger, though!
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Old 02-09-2010, 05:43 PM   #16
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Hi Teri!

Minnas, whether you need to count calories or not, you can still do this if the philosophy appeals to you. As you've read, I'm sure, it's basically a one size fits all WOL with tweaks here and there. Make it your own, girl. Or don't! It's really okay! We've all got to make ourselves happy. I do hope that you are able to experience what Teri and I are experiencing with the lack of hunger, though!
I hope so too but I'm not counting on it. That's not to say I won't stick with it but I think the hunger thing is something I just have to learn to live with. If I stay this route I will up carbs to include some veggies for bulk. Well, I would try that.

I think I'm sounding really negative about this way and truly I'm not. Just being realistic. I've been LC for a VERY long time so I've been around pretty much every corner and have learned a lot about my body and what it will and will not do under certain circumstances. I'm always open to hearing something new from my body but I don't expect it. The two things I am looking for apart from hunger control would be fat loss or body recomposition and/or just generally feeling better. These three things are my barometer at this point in my journey. Only time will tell!
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Old 02-10-2010, 06:58 AM   #17
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Minnas...are you my twin? Granted, I have NOT been lc for any extended period of time, but I sure can relate to your hunger/satiety issues.
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Old 02-10-2010, 07:15 AM   #18
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How ya doin'?!

Yesterday was good. I'm staying away from the scale until I get this thyroid crap under control, though (Feb 25th can't come soon enough!). I'm interested to see how my fat percentage and calories effect my weight loss afterwards, though. I feel phenomenal right now - far better than I did on straight Atkins with the higher carbs (though I do love my veggies now!), the lower fat, and the lack of concern about frankenfood (and I wasn't eating any to speak of at all). I'll have to see it to believe it to completely dispel my last (emotional) tied to calories - but I'm hopeful! Everything I've READ lately about calories makes sense and I do know that even with hypothyroidism, I can eat 3000 cals a day and not gain, as long as my fat is high (the only way I tested it, though, was with high fat). Anyway, I'm excited to see what next month has in store for me.

DH made coffee for me today. He added a touch of water and frothed it before adding the espresso and sprinkling with cinnamon. It's really good, but not enough fat, so I'll need to NOT forget my CO this morning. I've been getting lazy about the CO and need to get back on it.
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Old 02-10-2010, 09:31 AM   #19
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Minnas...are you my twin? Granted, I have NOT been lc for any extended period of time, but I sure can relate to your hunger/satiety issues.
I seem to have several twins out there! Maybe we all need to start our own group. "The Starving Sistahs"???

Hang in there. Just keep working on it. It seems that upping fat works well for many. Others just need more volume of food. I think for us there's just a lot of playing around that needs to be done to find what works best or us. If you can do it with fat I think that's probably preferable. What is the current fat % of your diet these days?
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:19 AM   #20
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How ya doin'?!

Yesterday was good. I'm staying away from the scale until I get this thyroid crap under control, though (Feb 25th can't come soon enough!). I'm interested to see how my fat percentage and calories effect my weight loss afterwards, though. I feel phenomenal right now - far better than I did on straight Atkins with the higher carbs (though I do love my veggies now!), the lower fat, and the lack of concern about frankenfood (and I wasn't eating any to speak of at all). I'll have to see it to believe it to completely dispel my last (emotional) tied to calories - but I'm hopeful! Everything I've READ lately about calories makes sense and I do know that even with hypothyroidism, I can eat 3000 cals a day and not gain, as long as my fat is high (the only way I tested it, though, was with high fat). Anyway, I'm excited to see what next month has in store for me.

DH made coffee for me today. He added a touch of water and frothed it before adding the espresso and sprinkling with cinnamon. It's really good, but not enough fat, so I'll need to NOT forget my CO this morning. I've been getting lazy about the CO and need to get back on it.
You know I keep reading about the THEORY that calories don't matter but I don't see a whole lot of people proving the theory to me. Know what I mean? The people who say they don't count calories or that calories don't count really are. Their bodies are counting them and regulating them to a range they can lose or maintain. I agree that nirvana would be a life where you had to count nothing and could just eat when hungry and fat would melt off your body and then once the excess was gone it would stay gone Unfortunately I don't see anyone who has lost a significant amount of weight this way and kept it off. I do see a lot of people doing Paleo for better health and feelings of well-being but they aren't losing significant amounts of weight and then maintaining that weight loss. That's not to say that I don't think Paleo principles can be used for weight loss and maintaining that loss but I surely haven't seen anyone SHOW me that it can be done.

JB, I don't think it's unreasonable to think you can maintain your current weight eating 3000 calories a day of mostly fat. Not sure you're going to lose at this level of calories though even with the thyroid issue tackled. I hope you find that you can. Even if it is I can pretty much promise you that won't be the case when you lose more weight. If you maintain now at 3000 calories you won't maintain at that level when you hit 150 lbs. I haven't actually seen anyone on Paleo say that it would be or should be the case. What's supposed to happen is that your body will ask for less food so your calories will naturally drop. At a "normal" weight you may very well be able to maintain at around 2000 calories a day which is very appropriate. It probably will be a bit less than that but who knows. What we do know is that unless you become a body builder or marathoner it's just not going to be possible for you to keep eating at your current level of calories as your weight goes down. Well, I guess I should ask, do you have a different understanding of what Paleo has to offer us??

I'm feeling the need to qualify my words to say that I'm not trying to be negative or combative, just trying to "talk" it out a bit if you will. I think I may have a different understanding of the real promise of Paleo for most. I don't know. Mostly I see a lot of talk that sounds good but well, show me "the fat women from middle America" who've lost weight and kept it off following general paleo principles and show me they are eating buckets of calories and then I'll be more convinced about paleo's promise for this class of people. I do see a lot of very athletic people, mostly men, talking about how great they feel on the plan. Great! I'm just not seeing lots of people like me. Nor am I seeing lots of people losing a lot of weight. That's my only "hesitation" of sorts. We are going beyond paleo principles in restricting carbs so much and eating as high a level of fat as we are, don't you think? After seeing Dr. Harris's macros, which sort of shocked me, I knew I could not lose eating his numbers. No way. So even under the paleo umbrella I think there has to be lower carbs/higher fat for many who are significantly overweight. I just don't see general paleo as the answer for fat loss for most people...but I could be wrong!

I fully support a life with no concern for calories. That's not going to happen for me I'm pretty sure but I would most certainly welcome it if it did. I would love to have my body count calories for me but it doesn't seem to want to. Well, it counts them but it seems to want more than I want it to have. Whatever. It is what it is.

Yesterday was pretty good for me. I changed up my menu a bit because I was gone in the evening and things just didn't work out as I had originally planned. I missed my 80% but a few but I was close.

I'm adding some more bacon in today. Not sure how paleo views bacon. I bought it before checking. It's nitrite/nitrate free if that matters. I'll need to read up on this. If it's not I'll stick it in the freezer until this week is over. I bought some different cuts of grass fed beef at the store and will be eating on those the next few days for protein. That and some eggs. Will stick with butter, hwc and CO for fats. Not much else to worry about, lol. So same old same old only eating beef today and the next few days instead of chicken. Feeling o.k. Ketosis is strong which may cloud my ability to feel great at least for a few days. We'll see.

I did buy some Ghee and some raw cream ($13 for a pint!!! Seriously I need my head examined!!) My two new toys to play with this week!
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:35 AM   #21
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Minnas, first of all...you don't need to justify your concerns to me. You're an intelligent woman who happens to be interested in trying something new to see how her body will respond. I have the utmost respect for someone willing to buck the norm for the sake of learning and perspective. If you gain weight doing this, you will not be left wondering. If you lose weight or stay the same, you'll have that info, as well. If you put aside the terror of gaining a few pounds to sacrifice for knowledge, it's a win-win situation. A clear path to our goal is the most anyone can hope for, right? I figure that this just brushes away some fog. A week (or two!) is a drop in the bucket of life. You've come a long way with your own weight loss and I do respect that you don't want to undo any of your hard work.

Secondly, as far as calories are concerned, I'm not offended by anyone who says that they have to count them. If you have to, you have to. I've been there - an avid calorie counter with the utmost faith in them, but I've also disproven my own beliefs and the things I've read lately support my experience. And just because I have a certain experience, doesn't mean that it's THE answer for everyone. I'm not emotionally attached to counting or not counting, though I respect that many people are. My only wish is that more people would be like you and give new ideas a shot. Hell, even just being open minded about these things and considering it (even without trying it) would be great.

Do you think that these people (myself included) are possibly just noting the data instead of "counting calories?" I know that for me, I'm more concerned about macros, but my nutrition tracker also gives me a big, ol' blaring number of how many calories I've eaten - regardless of my disinterest in it. Or are you seeing that people who say they're not counting really are limiting their cals?

My body IS self-regulating, I've learned, but I have to pay attention to what it truly wants. I also have to acknowledge my emotional eating side (which is hard, because I really just want to say, "Oh, effin' DEAL with it - be a big girl!"). It used to be common for me to be fighting that feeling of eating, eating, eating constantly and obsessively all.day.long. And I would always go to bed miserable. I don't remember what brought me around to this, but one day a few months ago, tired of the fighting in my head, I said, eff it. I ate. And ate and ate and ate. All on plan, but man, I packed away the food. And yes, I felt guilty about "nurturing the beast within," but the next day...to my surprise, it was better. I ate when I felt like it (emotionally or physically hungry) and over the next few days, it tapered off and as I realized that there was a valid reason for these urges, my guilt went away, too. I would say that I need to learn how to deal with my emotions without using food, but I don't feel the need to do that anymore, and don't even have the opportunity to practice. LOL I'm not suggesting that anyone else do this, as I'm one of those few who doesn't have a hard time staying or getting back on plan, but for the sake of conversation, it took me throwing caution to the wind to learn this about myself. Being hypo

Whether or not I am able to lose on my current 1600-2000 calories (or more, once in a while!) a day, is still yet to be seen. But, like I said, I am hopeful. I do not have a different understanding of what Paleo means, but the concept of calories doesn't typically enter my head anymore. I think in terms of satiety. I certainly don't dispute that I'll need less and probably eat less food when I'm at my goal of 135, but I do believe that my body will be better equipped by eating this way, to handle an increase should it happen. My ultimate goal with eating this way is to nurture my body and mind (general, overall health). So far, it's working. I do have a lot of faith that my body (physique) will follow to it's most healthy state once I'm truly nurturing (different than indulging...just sayin') it - I've always felt that way, so long as there aren't underlying issues (diabetes or thyroid or otherwise). I'm just praying that that is 135 on the scale (that statement seems sooo shallow in relation to this topic now LOL). Weight loss is only one side of the picture for me, though.

This was quite a ramble for me - I do hope it's cohesive and organized for you. LOL I have to run for now, though. I'll be back a bit later.
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:58 AM   #22
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Nope, I got every word of your ramble! Makes perfect sense to me.

I've never been one to just jump on a bandwagon. Instead I have to rip apart an idea and play devil's advocate and be willing to talk about the weaknesses of any idea. Every idea has its weaknesses. I am not one to just follow a diet like Atkins or whatever without understanding how and why it works. So part of my thoughts right now are just that. Rolling it all around in my brain and feverishly reading blogs and websites to see what others are saying and doing. Trying to most fully understand the how and why of how this way "works" and also what exactly "works" means. My current observations is that I'm not seeing a lot of people drawn to this or using this way for weight loss. That's just a concern of mine. Not that it can't or won't happen. Just that I am not seeing most people using it that way. Clearly it's not popular here on LCF and I wonder why? Is it about the further restriction or is it about the plan not yielding results on the scale. Surely our concerns must be for more than weight loss or I think we are doomed but when you are fat you probably want weight loss to be a part of your health plan.

Thanks for letting me spew and speak openly. I appreciate that. It's not my intention to challenge your thoughts but maybe talking out my doubts/concerns/whatever will help you cement your own beliefs in this way somehow? I hope so. I certainly don't want to drag you down or come across as unsupportive. Clearly I support the idea and am drawn to it. I just need to see how my body reacts and go from there I guess.

Can I ask you, do you really believe this way can be a lifestyle for you? I mean, we're talking years on end? I imagine you will be able to up your carbs at some point so that would help. Or do you think you will stay basically meat and fat for the rest of your life? How does your DH feel about that?
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Old 02-10-2010, 12:41 PM   #23
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First to your question about sustainability. I am 200% positive that I'll sustain this for the rest of my life. How do I know? It has everything to do with how much better I feel. Weight loss is secondary to me now (for the first time in my life).

See, I grew up with food. Dad was a french trained chef for much of his life and food is still his passion. True experimental passion. Where food is concerned, I lived indulgently and was chubby most of my life (save for a short time in my teens after puberty). As I'm sure you can already tell, food was a friend as well as an art to me. I do feel that that's forever ingrained in me and so instead of fighting it and being what society thinks is "normal," I'm learning to live with it. I've fought it for so, damn long, Minnas. Trying to force myself into this little box of denial. But, finally, I've found a plan that not only has scientific backing that explains the errors of the past and "clicks in my brain," but also gives me hope for a long, long future with my family. And all with my favorite foods. I don't feel deprived at all - even when I can't have my cheese, I'm okay with it deep down because I know what lactose and casein do to my body (I get an amazingly itchy rash up and down my back within 24 hours). As far as my love of sugar...well, it seems that the higher my fat is and the lower my carbs are, the less I want it. I'm stoked about that. Sugar scares the tar out of me and I do think that I may have some serious insulin issues because when I do eat sugar, not only do I feel all over icky, my sinuses get inflamed, I get achy, the backs of my eyes HURT (I always thought it was "just eyestrain) and my urine stinks (sweet smelling, which I've read is a common symptom of untreated diabetes). I'm truly addicted to sugar, so the less I have, the better, and the less I want, the better. That's not to say that I may never splurge on special occasions, but it's not going to be even a monthly thing for me.

Again, I may need to tweak my macros on this to lose weight and/or maintain, but this WOE is here to stay. And as far as DH goes? He's more hard core Paleo than I am now because of the amazing results he's been having. He's losing weight again after a month long stall, his blood-pouring sinuses have ceased pouring blood (everyone around here is on meds due to the pollen), he's got more energy, and dare I say...*knock on wood* his hormones seem to be more balanced. Oh, and his nerve pain from his back surgery is diminishing. We've gotten our two six year olds eating this way, too, and while they ate what most would consider to be healthy their whole lives, any and all behavior and attention issues have vanished. One of my boys was having issues with authority in the classroom (nothing major, but still unacceptable to me), and my other boy was getting written up for talking too much in class. Everyday. Within a week, these issues are non-existant and they get along wonderfully at home. For the sake of full disclosure, however, they are still eating fresh berries and cheese and I don't mind if they have a little honey.

I think that we ARE going to see more people doing this, but it's going to be in different venues because this isn't generally marketed as a "lose weight fast" scheme, like Atkins, because the concept IS general wellbeing and is not a quick fix.

And this...
Quote:
It's not my intention to challenge your thoughts but maybe talking out my doubts/concerns/whatever will help you cement your own beliefs in this way somehow?
Exactly.
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Old 02-10-2010, 12:51 PM   #24
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Very interesting thread ladies. I'm another one who does VLC but never get any appetite suppression. I'm always hungry even with 80% fat. I could easily eat 3000 cals daily if I ate to appetite and then I would (and do) gain weight. So I must limit calories as well. 1500 with<10 carbs and high fat works for maintenance for me but leaves me hungry. I've read the panu site and not sure that it offers anything new for me for weight and blood sugar maintenance but it does seem to be a healthy way to eat.

I fit most of the 12 steps already as a VLCer but I do eat cream and cheese. Anyway I'll continue to monitor this thread and follow your progress. I'd love to learn it is a plan that would solve the calorie issue in maintenance!
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Old 02-10-2010, 01:25 PM   #25
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Shunsweets, yep that's me too. However, I will say that my calories have been in the 1600-1900 range and I have dropped a couple BUT I was not in ketosis prior so I had some water weight on me that needed to go AND I have not eaten any vegetation at all. I am changing that last one today and will add in a couple of peppers. My carbs will still be below 10 but I want to see if this does anything. There definitely is a small contingent of us who are hungry and can't eat until satisfied without gaining. I know that frustrates others because it appears to "go against the rules" but it is what it is. I don't think any of us are making it up, lol! I'd love to feel full and happy. That is my holy grail!

I should add that I have not given up dairy...yet Dairy seems to be something that some give up but some don't. Well, it seems most do. I see some who identify themselves as "Paleo + Dairy" PaNu is the only "program" I have seen to not dictate its removal from the diet. Harris says he doesn't know what to think about dairy. Fair enough and I will follow suit. I originally thought that I would give up dairy and I may still. I am going to try RAW cream and cheese and see if that does anything. I have seen the claims that it's a totally different animal so to speak so we'll see. I don't really eat cheese to much (I use it as a treat to make a pizza crust or whatever) but I am not sure about giving up the HWC. I am going to try coconut milk in it's place once I'm done with the raw cream and see how that goes. I think ultimately a Paleo lifestyle would be best without dairy.
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Old 02-10-2010, 01:26 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzleBug View Post
First to your question about sustainability. I am 200% positive that I'll sustain this for the rest of my life. How do I know? It has everything to do with how much better I feel. Weight loss is secondary to me now (for the first time in my life).

See, I grew up with food. Dad was a french trained chef for much of his life and food is still his passion. True experimental passion. Where food is concerned, I lived indulgently and was chubby most of my life (save for a short time in my teens after puberty). As I'm sure you can already tell, food was a friend as well as an art to me. I do feel that that's forever ingrained in me and so instead of fighting it and being what society thinks is "normal," I'm learning to live with it. I've fought it for so, damn long, Minnas. Trying to force myself into this little box of denial. But, finally, I've found a plan that not only has scientific backing that explains the errors of the past and "clicks in my brain," but also gives me hope for a long, long future with my family. And all with my favorite foods. I don't feel deprived at all - even when I can't have my cheese, I'm okay with it deep down because I know what lactose and casein do to my body (I get an amazingly itchy rash up and down my back within 24 hours). As far as my love of sugar...well, it seems that the higher my fat is and the lower my carbs are, the less I want it. I'm stoked about that. Sugar scares the tar out of me and I do think that I may have some serious insulin issues because when I do eat sugar, not only do I feel all over icky, my sinuses get inflamed, I get achy, the backs of my eyes HURT (I always thought it was "just eyestrain) and my urine stinks (sweet smelling, which I've read is a common symptom of untreated diabetes). I'm truly addicted to sugar, so the less I have, the better, and the less I want, the better. That's not to say that I may never splurge on special occasions, but it's not going to be even a monthly thing for me.

Again, I may need to tweak my macros on this to lose weight and/or maintain, but this WOE is here to stay. And as far as DH goes? He's more hard core Paleo than I am now because of the amazing results he's been having. He's losing weight again after a month long stall, his blood-pouring sinuses have ceased pouring blood (everyone around here is on meds due to the pollen), he's got more energy, and dare I say...*knock on wood* his hormones seem to be more balanced. Oh, and his nerve pain from his back surgery is diminishing. We've gotten our two six year olds eating this way, too, and while they ate what most would consider to be healthy their whole lives, any and all behavior and attention issues have vanished. One of my boys was having issues with authority in the classroom (nothing major, but still unacceptable to me), and my other boy was getting written up for talking too much in class. Everyday. Within a week, these issues are non-existant and they get along wonderfully at home. For the sake of full disclosure, however, they are still eating fresh berries and cheese and I don't mind if they have a little honey.

I think that we ARE going to see more people doing this, but it's going to be in different venues because this isn't generally marketed as a "lose weight fast" scheme, like Atkins, because the concept IS general wellbeing and is not a quick fix.

And this...

Exactly.
Cool!
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Old 02-10-2010, 01:43 PM   #27
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Jazzlebug - very interesting that your children responded so well behaviorally(is that a word?) to the paleo diet. I notice my grandchildren really react swiftly to diet. Sugar really does make them agitated and emotional. Wish my daughter would consider LC for them.

Minnas- I did try 30 days without dairy but didn't notice any difference. I only use cream (lots of cream-it's my favorite fat) and cheese. If I don't have cream I'm even hungrier and end up with other high cal choices that usually have more carbs and proteins so raise my blood sugar (nuts, nut butters, creamcheese pancakes in coconut oil are the main replacers). With the high fat choices the quantity of food is small at 1500 cals. Wish I could find a solution. And yes I feel sad when I read over and over that if one eats VLC/highfat that calories won't matter. They count for me. I'm trying to maintain and need a lifelong plan. I'm also diabetic so must stick with a VLC plan. I'm still looking for the best choice.
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Old 02-10-2010, 03:04 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by shunsweets View Post
I'm trying to maintain and need a lifelong plan.
Boy I hear ya! I don't think people grasp how difficult maintenance really is. I mean, they have enough to think about just losing so I would never encourage anyone to give much thought to it really but I sort of laugh when people talk about getting to goal as if that really means much. Sorry to say of the very few who get to goal even fewer stay there for any length of time.

Well, if you come up with any answers I would love to hear them. There are a few of us with hunger issues on the board and I suspect some more who won't admit it. I think it's more common than people let on because it's not PC to admit to hunger on LC. I'll give it to the low fat/WW crowd on that one. At least with that you can admit you're hungry, lol. No, I know more people are not hungry or are LESS hungry on LC but I still think we have much more company than we know.

I'm going to stay on this track for a bit. I'm definitely going to withhold judgment on the hunger issue for a few days. It may be I need to play with some different foods and different percentages and see what happens.

It helps me to know I'm not alone in my struggles (which normally I do here on LCF) so thanks for speaking about it.
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Old 02-10-2010, 06:24 PM   #29
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I ended up changing up my menu a bit and have now eaten all my planned food for the day. It's only just 5:30 so if I get hungry I will dip a bit of chicken in some fat of some sort. I have some hwc still to get down too.

I ended up making jalapeno poppers but they did NOT do the trick for me at all. Not sure why but after eating 10 of them I had to eat more bacon to satisfy me. Now, I did skimp quite a bit on the bacon on the poppers and did not include the cheddar that normally goes in so they weren't as substantial as usual but still, I was surprised. Oh well. Pretty sure cream cheese isn't paleo either so... the whole thing was a big bummer.

For dinner I had steak with a ton of butter on it. That was good and I'm sure it was paleo. My body seems to really love beef. I should do this more often. Too bad it's so expensive (grass fed steaks).
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:36 AM   #30
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Ugh, didn't sleep much last night which means I am in for a rough day. On top of that I was up a bit this morning on the scale. Ah, well. Such is life.

This morning I finally cracked the raw cream open. I was actually a bit scared to try it given the "raw" thing but I had some and it's...o.k. Most importantaly I didn't die or even get sick from it. It tastes fine but doesn't taste $8 better than my organic cream (but I know that's not the point of it.) I'm pretty sure I can't continue using this due to the price unless I feel like some kind of new woman after using this pint up. Glad to try it though.

Today will be chicken thighs, a few eggs and some bacon along with some added butter and CO. Coffee and hot tea to drink. O.k. I'm off to go get my caveman on!!
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