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Old 02-11-2010, 08:51 AM   #31
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Minnas! I DO NOT want to ***** slap you! I about spit my tea out when I read that!
I really think you are eating things that are spiking your insulin. If not, you are a rare bird indeed. Last night before I went to bed I decided to eat a small piece of colby cheese and had a couple drops (yes drops) of davinci's sf french vanilla in my tea. I woke up about 3 am from a sound sleep with my stomach growling and felt absolutely ravenous. Thats how sensitive I am!

As far as the calories in calories out, read Taubes book. He does a great job presenting that info. So does Michael Eades in one of his blogs. Both provide links to the studies they reference. Eades makes it more clear that the calories in calories out may be true in low fat, low cal, high carb diets, but not with low carb high fat diets. Even if you are eating 2500-3000 calories initially, as long as as those cals are mostly fat with adequate protein, it is doubtful you will gain. Atkins pointed that out years ago. His conclusion was most normal overweight women could eat above 2000 calories and still lose as long as those calories were mostly fat and protein. You will only gain if you continue to eat things that keep your insulin levels elevated. It is the insulin that drives fat storage and weight gain. I don't know how long you've done the really high fat thing now but if you really want to see what's going on, cut everything but the fat and protein for awhile, then add just a ONE thing at a time and see what the reaction is. Don't track anything while doing the fat/protein thing. Just eat and try to not get freaked out about portions or calories.

I do get so irritated with the calorie counters who have to pile on EVERY single thread about weight loss, stalls etc. And I don't think low carb or VLC is a license to eat everything that isn't nailed down. I do however believe its important to understand what drives people to over eat and the more I learn, the more I get the insulin connection. Once you get that part of it, the rest makes more sense. At least it has for me and my struggles. I think the whole calorie counting thing is a real disservice to those who have struggled all their lives with weight issues and that whole "diet mentality". The other thing I don't get about those folks is why do they hang out on a low carb discussion board? If their 1200-1400 calories a day work for them and their weight loss, why don't they get their own thread? or their own discussion board for that matter? lol. I'm not saying that doesn't work for some people. There are people who may put on a few pounds and can cut calories to lose. Those people haven't screwed themselves up to the point most of us have. But unless their genes and metabolism are golden, they will eventually get where we are if they keep yo-yoing like we have. I was able to do that in my younger years too!

Anyway, I'm just so happy to see the paleo party thread and love to read about your experiences and what you learn. Party on girls!
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:00 AM   #32
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Minnas, I just re-read all your posts and it looks like you have been doing mostly paleo. But I'm wondering if you have a dairy sensitivy or if maybe you are eating a bit more protein than you need? Don't know, just thinking out loud.
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:40 PM   #33
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Okay, need some advice. Teri knows I ask LOTS of questions, right?? I am struggling to even get the carbs below 20 grams, and I think I am super-sensitive to the carbs...thus, the need to get them LOW and keep them there so that I can really see if this will work for me.

I know I sound like an IDIOT, but to keep protein low...and to get over the initial hump...can you give me some recommendations of what to do? I am "satiety-challenged" in that I can eat a TON of food. Say, for example, if I was just eating a meal of eggs only--I'll bet I could easily eat 6 eggs WITH butter and not bat an eye. (I'm 5'3" and about 130 pounds...but I am EXTREMELY flabby as I was underweight and then gained about 30 pounds in a very short period of time.) When I've tried zc, I can easily eat a pound of ground beef...okay, you get the idea. Clearly, that is too much protein....because I eat at LEAST 3 times a day. Oy vey...I don't know where to turn anymore. "Standard" diets (diabetic food exchange system) leave me ravenous and create issues with hypoglycemia. I can't seem to "fill up" on fat...or maybe it is just that I haven't REALLY done it? That is what I'm thinking is the problem...

So, how low in carbs are most of you going?

Thanks and sorry to be so longwinded...I'm just really in turmoil about finding something that WORKS for me.
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:43 PM   #34
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Good info, guys. I'll have to comment on it all a bit later. I'm having one killer of a day. And not "killer" in the "way cool" sense. February 25th can't come soon enough. I can only imagine how bad I'd feel if I were still eating high carb and forcing through the running.

Yesterday went as planned EXCEPT when DH offered me about an ounce of Colby Jack. It was in my mouth before I remembered not to eat it and I nearly choked on it. I'm sure it was an amusing sight. DH sure looked at me funny. And then HE remembered about my pact with you, Minnas, which led to him getting all antsy, hoppy, and wide-eyed. "Ooh, ooh, ooh!!! You'd better tell her!" Duh. So, anyway, I was looking for a photo of a dog with its' tail between its' legs and droopy eyes to post in leu of an explanation, but nothing quite fit my feeling of failure. LOL

No cheese today, though. I'm back on track. Trying to get my water in. I think we're roasting chicken for dinner tonight. Last nights dinner was a wonderful chicken thigh and sausage (fresh, additive free) bake. DH is getting a quarter of a grass fed cow here any day now and I'm really looking forward to the red meat.
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:48 PM   #35
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Ok I'm going to give this another try with you Minnas. For now I'm going to keep cream in my diet but no grains, no veggies, no fruit, no sugars. I do 2 meals on work days 3 when home with DH.

Bkfst - 1 egg, 1sausage patty, 2 coffees with cream(about 4oz cream all together)
Lunch - chicken leg, tea with 2oz cream
Supper- 2 eggs, 2 teas with cream

Not a very inspired menu but that's it for today. I fry my eggs in coconut oil or butter.

If I gain on this menu, I will cut out the cream and see what happens but then I'll be low in fat and can't see myself drinking CO oil or butter!

Teri - you're experienced in this way of eating. Does my menu look OK?

I do take a multivit/mineral tab, D3, fish oil, and a diabetes formula daily. I also use ACvinegar before my main meal of the day.

Any input?
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:49 PM   #36
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If you need to eat 6 eggs with butter, eat away. The one thing I'd add if I were you is coconut oil, if you haven't already. It goes a long way to help with appetite suppression and to keep fat ratios high. You need to eat enough protein and I think 1 gm per lb of body weight is a safe recommendation. Fat is the thing that will get and keep you in ketosis. Cut out all AS. All these things may seem trivial but they can impact your insulin response and hunger. Don't worry about the quantity you are eating...I swear that will take care of itself IF you keep your insulin levels low. Good luck!
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:57 PM   #37
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Sweets, your menu looks great to me. Don't force any rules on yourself. The whole idea is to eat when hungry, stop when full, keep insulin levels low by keeping carbs low and eat as much fat as you can. It works, it really does.

Stephanie, I hope you get your thyroid issues all ironed out so you are feeling better soon. We need to get Lisa over here with us. I'll send her a message. I think Cleo is looking into paleo eating too so I'll give her a shout.
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Old 02-11-2010, 02:04 PM   #38
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Thanks for the advice--I know you have given it before. Today I have had veggies along with protein and fat...but a LOT of veggies. I've eaten about 2000 calories and my stomach is growling at me right now. I could EAT. Shunsweets--your daily menu looks like a "snack" to me, lol...

Question about exercise--what are folks doing? My cardio (about an 50 min--combo of elliptical and rowing machine) may be fueling my hunger....I know some say that is all cardio does. I'm TERRIFIED to give it up, but am trying to cut back (when I was underweight I did 90 min and then reduced to 75...and now 50-60) and do weight training. I don't think I have heavy enough weights, though, because I'm only mildly sore and I am CERTAINLY not noticing any changes in my appearance.

Have a good night, everyone...off to shuttle the kids to karate and such.
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:02 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gettingwell View Post
Thanks for the advice--I know you have given it before. Today I have had veggies along with protein and fat...but a LOT of veggies. I've eaten about 2000 calories and my stomach is growling at me right now. I could EAT. Shunsweets--your daily menu looks like a "snack" to me, lol...

Question about exercise--what are folks doing? My cardio (about an 50 min--combo of elliptical and rowing machine) may be fueling my hunger....I know some say that is all cardio does. I'm TERRIFIED to give it up, but am trying to cut back (when I was underweight I did 90 min and then reduced to 75...and now 50-60) and do weight training. I don't think I have heavy enough weights, though, because I'm only mildly sore and I am CERTAINLY not noticing any changes in my appearance.

Have a good night, everyone...off to shuttle the kids to karate and such.
Its probably the "lots of veggies" causing you a problem. Nix the veggies completely, eat more fat and see what happens. If you enjoy exercise, go for it!
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Old 02-11-2010, 05:35 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by teri f View Post
Stephanie, I hope you get your thyroid issues all ironed out so you are feeling better soon. We need to get Lisa over here with us. I'll send her a message. I think Cleo is looking into paleo eating too so I'll give her a shout.
Thanks. I would love to see those two over here. I've learned so much from both.

I would be interested to see what happens if you two cut out carbs completely for a few days. Who knows. It may or may not work, but I'd still be interested to see... Not sure if y'all want to take it there or not.

I did stay away from the cheese today. DH ended up making the most amazing fajita's for us (no tortilla's, obviously...just in a bowl with toppings). I stuck with sour cream and no cheese. THAT was quite an undertaking but while I was eating, I realized that it tasted JUST FINE without it.

Breakfast was 3 eggs over easy in 1 tbsp butter. Lunch was 2 leftover chicken thighs and 1 snausage (fresh, no additives). I wasn't hungry when I ate lunch, but I was feeling like I do when I tried low cal/low fat/low carb, so I thought that maybe I needed more fat? I hate talking about this so much (it sounds very "me, me, me, me, me"), but I will be thrilled when I get the thyroid under control. And dinner...well, that was written above. DH made me some steamed HWC diluted in a little bit of water to help me relax a bit. And it's doing the trick better than a glass of wine would! LOL
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Old 02-11-2010, 05:46 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by teri f View Post
Minnas! I DO NOT want to ***** slap you! I about spit my tea out when I read that!
I really think you are eating things that are spiking your insulin. If not, you are a rare bird indeed. Last night before I went to bed I decided to eat a small piece of colby cheese and had a couple drops (yes drops) of davinci's sf french vanilla in my tea. I woke up about 3 am from a sound sleep with my stomach growling and felt absolutely ravenous. Thats how sensitive I am!

As far as the calories in calories out, read Taubes book. He does a great job presenting that info. So does Michael Eades in one of his blogs. Both provide links to the studies they reference. Eades makes it more clear that the calories in calories out may be true in low fat, low cal, high carb diets, but not with low carb high fat diets. Even if you are eating 2500-3000 calories initially, as long as as those cals are mostly fat with adequate protein, it is doubtful you will gain. Atkins pointed that out years ago. His conclusion was most normal overweight women could eat above 2000 calories and still lose as long as those calories were mostly fat and protein. You will only gain if you continue to eat things that keep your insulin levels elevated. It is the insulin that drives fat storage and weight gain. I don't know how long you've done the really high fat thing now but if you really want to see what's going on, cut everything but the fat and protein for awhile, then add just a ONE thing at a time and see what the reaction is. Don't track anything while doing the fat/protein thing. Just eat and try to not get freaked out about portions or calories.

I do get so irritated with the calorie counters who have to pile on EVERY single thread about weight loss, stalls etc. And I don't think low carb or VLC is a license to eat everything that isn't nailed down. I do however believe its important to understand what drives people to over eat and the more I learn, the more I get the insulin connection. Once you get that part of it, the rest makes more sense. At least it has for me and my struggles. I think the whole calorie counting thing is a real disservice to those who have struggled all their lives with weight issues and that whole "diet mentality". The other thing I don't get about those folks is why do they hang out on a low carb discussion board? If their 1200-1400 calories a day work for them and their weight loss, why don't they get their own thread? or their own discussion board for that matter? lol. I'm not saying that doesn't work for some people. There are people who may put on a few pounds and can cut calories to lose. Those people haven't screwed themselves up to the point most of us have. But unless their genes and metabolism are golden, they will eventually get where we are if they keep yo-yoing like we have. I was able to do that in my younger years too!

Anyway, I'm just so happy to see the paleo party thread and love to read about your experiences and what you learn. Party on girls!
And this. Beautifully said, Teri, all of it. Further, I don't have a problem with ANY topic (calories or otherwise) or person until someone tells me, directly or indirectly (as happens frequently here), that my experience simply doesn't matter.
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Old 02-11-2010, 10:04 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teri f View Post
Minnas! I DO NOT want to ***** slap you! I about spit my tea out when I read that!
I really think you are eating things that are spiking your insulin. If not, you are a rare bird indeed. Last night before I went to bed I decided to eat a small piece of colby cheese and had a couple drops (yes drops) of davinci's sf french vanilla in my tea. I woke up about 3 am from a sound sleep with my stomach growling and felt absolutely ravenous. Thats how sensitive I am!

As far as the calories in calories out, read Taubes book. He does a great job presenting that info. So does Michael Eades in one of his blogs. Both provide links to the studies they reference. Eades makes it more clear that the calories in calories out may be true in low fat, low cal, high carb diets, but not with low carb high fat diets. Even if you are eating 2500-3000 calories initially, as long as as those cals are mostly fat with adequate protein, it is doubtful you will gain. Atkins pointed that out years ago. His conclusion was most normal overweight women could eat above 2000 calories and still lose as long as those calories were mostly fat and protein. You will only gain if you continue to eat things that keep your insulin levels elevated. It is the insulin that drives fat storage and weight gain. I don't know how long you've done the really high fat thing now but if you really want to see what's going on, cut everything but the fat and protein for awhile, then add just a ONE thing at a time and see what the reaction is. Don't track anything while doing the fat/protein thing. Just eat and try to not get freaked out about portions or calories.
I do get so irritated with the calorie counters who have to pile on EVERY single thread about weight loss, stalls etc. And I don't think low carb or VLC is a license to eat everything that isn't nailed down. I do however believe its important to understand what drives people to over eat and the more I learn, the more I get the insulin connection. Once you get that part of it, the rest makes more sense. At least it has for me and my struggles.
Hi Ladies! Great thread!

Teri, Thanks for the invite! I just read through all the posts!

You are so right...the only thing that does not make me crave is avoiding most AS. Liquid splenda, however, does not cause any cravings for me whatsoever so I stick to that. When I use Davinci's or Walden's I use to crave a lot.

I find that if I stick to protein and fat (not necessarily in that order) I am able to feel my best and the weight melted off. I limit my veggies for 1 cup per day WHEN I feel like it. I haven't touched a veggie in probably a week. I'd rather save my carbs for coconut bark!

Stephanie: How are you feeling? Are you on the doc's cancellation list? I was able to move up my initial appt very quickly b/c he had a cancellation. I remember how desperate I felt. Being laid out on the couch, freezing, foggy and unble to function. It was awful. At least you have the VLC way of eating figured out. I was told that I had to keep my carbs above 30grams if I was hypothyroid so I did. It is how a lot of the people feel better. I am the opposite and I am grateful I finally figured it out because the meds alone did nothing. The combo saved my life and gave my DH his wife back and my kids mommy back. Stay strong!
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Old 02-12-2010, 08:19 AM   #43
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Just for the record...I weighed in at 214.0 today. I bounce around 215 (for a couple of months now), but I am NOT gaining. I don't think I'll be losing any until I'm on meds, but still...one would imagine that with my history of EASY and FAST gaining, I would be gaining if this WOE weren't right for me. I gain soooo easily and so quickly.

I haven't been tracking my food as well as I should. I've kind of just been winging it, keeping my fat high and my carbs as low as possible. Just don't really have the energy to be obsessing about tracking my food. Still not doing cheese, though there is a fresh round of REAL smoked gouda (not the plastic crap) in the fridge calling to me.

Lisa, thank you. Today's much better than yesterday was. Yesterday was exactly like you described. Laid out on the couch, freezing, foggy, and unable to do anything. I'm not on a cancellation list, but that's okay. While this doctor has promising reviews, her staff does not and I don't want to risk "losing" an appointment or some other office mishap since I have to have everything properly referred and orders for travel printed by the military in order for Tricare reimbursement. But that's okay. I'm convinced that the D3 I'm taking along with this eating style is what's keeping me afloat right now. I can't imagine that after I get on meds that this WOE (higher fat, higher cals) won't keep working for me - I just feel so much better eating this way. Relatively speaking of course.

I just reread something I wrote and need to clarify...
Quote:
Further, I don't have a problem with ANY topic (calories or otherwise) or person until someone tells me, directly or indirectly (as happens frequently here), that my experience simply doesn't matter.
"Here" means on the Low Carb Friends Forums, not this thread.
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Old 02-12-2010, 09:00 AM   #44
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Hang in there, Stephanie. I watched myself put 20+ pounds before treatment all the while I lifted and ate 20-30grams of carbs and tracked every morsel. I no longer track, I become to obsessed and I have far too much going on with the family to spend time punching things in. What I found is that I would not be hungry but see that I only ate X amount of calories and say Oh, I can eat more cause so and so said I should eat this many per day. Wrong, now I listen to my body, know the carb counts of all the foods I consume and leave it there. Obviously it works for me. It's food not rocket science!

I am glad you have the appt with hopefully a doc that gets its. You have your ammo now just work your charm to get the meds you need!

ETA: Be sure to baby yourself right now. No strenuous activity and try to rest when you feel fatigued. Pushing it can be the worst thing for you right now, K?

Last edited by 2bflawless; 02-12-2010 at 09:01 AM.. Reason: Take care of yourself
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Old 02-12-2010, 01:25 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teri f View Post
Minnas! I DO NOT want to ***** slap you! I about spit my tea out when I read that!
I really think you are eating things that are spiking your insulin. If not, you are a rare bird indeed. Last night before I went to bed I decided to eat a small piece of colby cheese and had a couple drops (yes drops) of davinci's sf french vanilla in my tea. I woke up about 3 am from a sound sleep with my stomach growling and felt absolutely ravenous. Thats how sensitive I am!

As far as the calories in calories out, read Taubes book. He does a great job presenting that info. So does Michael Eades in one of his blogs. Both provide links to the studies they reference. Eades makes it more clear that the calories in calories out may be true in low fat, low cal, high carb diets, but not with low carb high fat diets. Even if you are eating 2500-3000 calories initially, as long as as those cals are mostly fat with adequate protein, it is doubtful you will gain. Atkins pointed that out years ago. His conclusion was most normal overweight women could eat above 2000 calories and still lose as long as those calories were mostly fat and protein. You will only gain if you continue to eat things that keep your insulin levels elevated. It is the insulin that drives fat storage and weight gain. I don't know how long you've done the really high fat thing now but if you really want to see what's going on, cut everything but the fat and protein for awhile, then add just a ONE thing at a time and see what the reaction is. Don't track anything while doing the fat/protein thing. Just eat and try to not get freaked out about portions or calories.

I do get so irritated with the calorie counters who have to pile on EVERY single thread about weight loss, stalls etc. And I don't think low carb or VLC is a license to eat everything that isn't nailed down. I do however believe its important to understand what drives people to over eat and the more I learn, the more I get the insulin connection. Once you get that part of it, the rest makes more sense. At least it has for me and my struggles. I think the whole calorie counting thing is a real disservice to those who have struggled all their lives with weight issues and that whole "diet mentality". The other thing I don't get about those folks is why do they hang out on a low carb discussion board? If their 1200-1400 calories a day work for them and their weight loss, why don't they get their own thread? or their own discussion board for that matter? lol. I'm not saying that doesn't work for some people. There are people who may put on a few pounds and can cut calories to lose. Those people haven't screwed themselves up to the point most of us have. But unless their genes and metabolism are golden, they will eventually get where we are if they keep yo-yoing like we have. I was able to do that in my younger years too!

Anyway, I'm just so happy to see the paleo party thread and love to read about your experiences and what you learn. Party on girls!
Can I get the direct quote from this? (Not questioning it but just wanted to see his exact words and context if possible.

The other thing that needs to be noted is that he is talking about overweight women. Well, I'm not overweight at least by BMI standards. By like a pound but I'm "normal". I think this is what some people don't understand and why it's mostly the maintainers or people close to goal who are all counting calories. Once your weight is stabalized in a "normal" range most of us have to count calories. Most of us are NOT willing to eat VLC the rest of our lives. Low carb yes. Even very limited carbs and no grains, no fruit etc, but not VLC (under 15-20 day in and day out) I don't want to live that way and I think most maintainers feel the same. All I can say is that I look forward to all of you joining us over on the maintain lane once you are near goal and we can compare notes then, lol! O.k.??

I feel like we're talking apples and oranges in a way. I feel like we're also talking theory and practice. Dr A or whoever else can tell me till they are blue in the face that I SHOULDN'T have to count calories but go on the Maintain Lane Board and see how many of us find that to be a big fat lie. None of us are rolling around in carbs either. Most of us are very low carb and never climbed that stupid ladder more than a rung or two. I don't think anyone of us is arguing that insulin drives fat storage. Why do you guys think that? Do you think we just don't understand the science? The fact that we are all here on a low carb board should tell you that we know nd believe the science. We've all read the books. We all have watched Taubes lectures. We all agree on all of that! But where the rubber hits the road even on a restricted carb diet calories need to be in line with the bodies needs or you gain weight. For whatever else Atkins may have said about losing on 2000 calories a day he clearly said that calories matter. They matter! They are part of the equation and can't be ignored especially once a "normal" weight is achieved.

I honestly don't understand why this argument continues to fester?? What are we arguing about exactly?? Do you guys really believe that at 140 lbs you will be able to eat 2500 calories a day day in and day out and as long as it's mostly fat and protein you will be fine? Is that what the argument is boiling down to? If that's it then it's sort of pointless to continue. Again we are talking theory here and until you all put it into practice yourselves there certainly isn't anything I or any one of the other "counters" can say to change your mind. Truly, if your maintenance experience gives you that many calories at your ideal weight AND you can live your life eating under 10g carbs a day then I bow down to you and no one will be more thrilled for you. I honestly mean that! That would be amazing and I would be insanely jealous. Do I think that's what will happen? No, I do not. But if you prove me wrong I will eat my words and be happy to do so.

Some of the "counters" have been wondering how we can talk about our experiences without sounding...however it is we sound. No one is saying anything against VLC. None of us argue that if someone is having problems losing that looking at carbs is a worthwhile pursuit. We just happen to believe that looking at calories is also a worthwhile pursuit especially for people with fewer pounds to lose or someone closer to goal. We all are just talking about our personal experiences. Not to speak for all but I think we are equally as frustrated at the constant struggle we seem to have on the board. You want to tell your stories and you absolutely should! You have great stories to tell. People doing well on VLC and high fat are well represented on the board and hopefully many people will hear your message and listen. But everyone needs to be able to tell their story. I think we also feel like you are saying our experiences are not valid when we say we had to cut calories. Again, it seems to come down to what some people believe in theory and what actually seems to be the truth in practice. I don't know what the answer is but it's clear that both "sides" feel frustrated and feel invalidated and that's a shame. If anyone has any ideas how we can all more peacefully coexist here on the board I think many would would to hear. What worries me, and I think many on both "sides" is the crazy messages we may be sending out to newbies or people just struggling and reaching out for help. If there's anything we can all do to stop looking like a bunch of crazy people arguing about calories all the time I think that would be a really great thing. (sorry for the rambling...no time to go back and make more sense of this brain dump unfortunately)

Anyhow, yesterday was a disaster for me. <10 carbs, 84% fat but 3000 calories. And yes, I gained!!! I am up 4 lbs for the week matter of fact Still withholding judgment but I do have some concern to be honest. I'm in for a few more days then will see. I am feeling better today and am drinking a lot of mate and that helps. Should be at about 1700 today with maybe 12 carbs but I may miss the 80% fat mark. I don't know. I don't think there will be a repeat of yesterday though. Not sure what happened exactly but feel back on track today.

Have a good one everybody!!
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Old 02-12-2010, 10:13 PM   #46
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I've just ordered "Primal Blueprint" and "The Paleo Diet" then I saw this thread. Coincidental?

I think I want to go a little more Carnivore than what I understand Paleo to be, but the philosophy is the same...

BTW, I think many people's objection to the "Counting Calories" thing is not the over quoted laws of Thermodynamics, but the idea that a healthy person has to calculate every bite they eat and if something pushes them over a certain arbitrary number they have to deny themselves. That's "Counting Calories" to me, and I just know too many folks who lost and maintained without doing that.

A healthy appetite will self regulate, but I guess some folks don't ever get back to a healthy appetite.
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Old 02-13-2010, 05:53 AM   #47
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I'm interested in this.........I really need to peruse this thread when I have more time, but I think I'm a fit.

For the past few days I've only eaten meat and had water. Last night, however, I had a salad w/grilled chicken and bleu cheese dressing.

I'm hypersensitive to AS.........Might as well have sugar.

Going hardcore

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Old 02-13-2010, 08:03 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Looweewoo View Post
I've just ordered "Primal Blueprint" and "The Paleo Diet" then I saw this thread. Coincidental?

I think I want to go a little more Carnivore than what I understand Paleo to be, but the philosophy is the same...

BTW, I think many people's objection to the "Counting Calories" thing is not the over quoted laws of Thermodynamics, but the idea that a healthy person has to calculate every bite they eat and if something pushes them over a certain arbitrary number they have to deny themselves. That's "Counting Calories" to me, and I just know too many folks who lost and maintained without doing that.

A healthy appetite will self regulate, but I guess some folks don't ever get back to a healthy appetite.
This. I think this is it in a nutshell.

I don't think for one minute that I will be eating 2500-3000 calories a day at goal. I HAVE been at goal BTW. I maintained for 4 1/2 years and never counted one single calorie. My downfall was eating too many carbs and I was off to the races again. I'm a very little person who is currently overweight. I'm small and compact but not petite or tiny boned. I'm also very active and always have been. I was a swimmer for many years and I think that is what shaped and defined my body. I was also a rough and tumble tom boy and played softball until I was in my 40's.

I know that a VLC diet is not easy to follow, and I expect I will be able to add some more carbs once I'm closer to whatever my optimal weight will be. I did maintain quite well eating about 20 grams a day. I've done this long enough to know what I can tolerate and what I can't. I know that if I want to feel my best, I have to keep my carbs pretty low and I'm ok with that. I'm over my love affair with certain things I thought I couldn't live without.

As far as the whole calorie thing is concerned, I think its a trade off. If you want to be able to eat certain things then maybe you will have to watch calories a little closer. I prefer to not do that trade off. Most people do not have to go to the extremes that I've had to but I've apparently done alot more damage to my body than others.

The things I take exception to are the insinuations (I'm not saying from you Minnas, but certainly many others) that because I'm not at goal, I can't POSSIBLY know what I'm talking about. I know quite well what I'm talking about. I get what you all are saying but you don't get it when I tell you that I have tried every single counting calorie gimmick under the sun and it simply doesn't work for me. We are participating on a low carb discussion board so I have to think the calorie counting thing didn't work for a lot of others either. Telling new people (and yes, it happens all the time) that if they stall out after a time, they may need to watch their calories is really aggravating to those who have worked so hard to get over that mind set, and who know how that can affect some people. That was the advice given to someone just recently who still weighed around 250. Give me a break here. More than likely it was just a normal stall, or maybe too many low carb treats. I can almost gaurantee you that it was carb creep of some form and not too many calories. And there are a certain number of calorie counters that always have to pile on. I know you know what I'm talking about. I don't think giving that advice to a new person on low carb is the right thing to do.

If you guys in the maintain lane are doing great counting calories, then why do some of them get their panties in such a twist over those of us who don't count calories? I don't get that either. If eating 1200 to 1400 calories a day worked for me, and I was maintaining and happy with what I was doing, I doubt I'd be hanging around a low carb board. But thats just me. There are lots of oldtimers who don't even post much or come around much because they get talked down to my some of those people. I've never been one to be intimidated, especially when I believe what I'm doing is right for me. I think thats the difference. I'm not interested in being right, I'm only interested in doing whats right for me to heal my body and get well. Just like you have to do whats right for you Minnas. VLC/high fat may not work for you, but it does work for those of us who are insulin resistant and can't tolerate higher carbs. As I stated before and what Loowee pointed out, a healthy appetite will self regulate. But if you don't have a healthy appetite, you have to do what works for you.

I personally enjoy discussions and alternative points of view. It makes me think, read and research even more. Maybe, and I'm not saying this to be a smartass, but maybe you guys should start your own calorie counting thread. It could be a good resource for those who like doing that or think calorie counting might work better for them. Maybe the separation would calm things down a bit? I don't know, just wondering. I can guarantee you that I would never venture into a calorie counting thread...lol. I've had enough of a taste of those people who would be participating and have no desire to tread into their territory.

But all that aside, I value your experience, insight, and opinion. And even if VLC/paleo type diet doesn't work for you, I hope you will still be our friend and hang around.
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Old 02-13-2010, 08:08 AM   #49
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Minnas--I don't have any of my Atkins books anymore--lost everything in a fire a couple years ago but I'm almost positive he talked about that in the earlist book.
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Old 02-13-2010, 08:40 AM   #50
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Oh Loowee--welcome. Forgot to say that. I just got "primal Body, Primal Mind". I don't necessarily agree with all her conclusions but there's a ton of good info. Another good web resource is the PaNu website. You may have already found that one though.

Anyway, glad you could join us. Let us know what you think of those books and how your carnivore diet is working!

p.s.--I incorporated the Herbert Spencer quote too (in case you couldn't see it--lol). During a very pissed off moment. I usually don't let people get to me but I guess I'm human and it happens. If nothing else, it makes me feel better and helps keep me on track.

Last edited by teri f; 02-13-2010 at 08:45 AM..
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Old 02-13-2010, 10:05 AM   #51
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I love that quote and didn't want to part with it, but I try to rotate things. It's a reminder to me and a rebuke to certain others....

I'm reading the PaNu site's back posts now, but I guess I'm going to have to stay away from the comments if I want to get anywhere reading them.

I want to be clear about the so called "Carnivore" diet I use, it's not meat only. I don't know of a single mammal carnivore that eats meat only. However there are many who only get their vegetation from the stomach contents of herbivore prey. I ain't going there, so I eat a few salad greens and etc, with fatty meat, once a day.

I believe that humans are mostly carnivorous omnivores, men more so than women, upper latitude folks more than Equatorial people. It's just a belief, part science - part philosophy - part playful fantasy. I listen to the folks who are doing Paleo without trying to role play the whole caveman thing - even though it's fun to do that sometimes...

I also read through this every couple of months, just to keep my own autistic behavior in Paleo perspective.
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Old 02-13-2010, 10:21 AM   #52
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Well I'm on day 3 of deliberately increasing my fat intake and staying <10 carbs. Things I've noticed so far:

My protein intake has lowered. One burger is plenty when fried in coconut oil and covered with cream gravy. In fact I find myself wanting more fatty gravy and could do without the meat!

My blood sugar is the best it's been in weeks. I have low insulin production but what little I have seems able to do the trick with this diet.

I've gained 2 pounds. Don't want to revisit the whole calorie debate. I'll stick with it a while and see what happens. I like the paleo theories(like both the Panu and Primal blueprint sites) and enjoyed both Neanderthin and and The Paleo Diet just from an anthropology point of view so I'm willing to give this some time. Certainly more satisfying to me than a more moderate carb lower fat diet. I like fats - maybe too much?
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Old 02-13-2010, 10:26 AM   #53
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From what I've read (and NOT from personal experience, so add a small amount of salt), if you have a wide variety of fats and a full complement of proteins, any fat cravings should go away. A couple of different fat sources including coconut should do that.

Maybe it's a dairy reaction? When you say cream gravy, how much cream?
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Old 02-13-2010, 12:55 PM   #54
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Well I'm on day 3 of deliberately increasing my fat intake and staying <10 carbs. Things I've noticed so far:

My protein intake has lowered. One burger is plenty when fried in coconut oil and covered with cream gravy. In fact I find myself wanting more fatty gravy and could do without the meat!

My blood sugar is the best it's been in weeks. I have low insulin production but what little I have seems able to do the trick with this diet.

I've gained 2 pounds. Don't want to revisit the whole calorie debate. I'll stick with it a while and see what happens. I like the paleo theories(like both the Panu and Primal blueprint sites) and enjoyed both Neanderthin and and The Paleo Diet just from an anthropology point of view so I'm willing to give this some time. Certainly more satisfying to me than a more moderate carb lower fat diet. I like fats - maybe too much?
Just curious about something--is your weight close to your goal? A couple pound weight gain could be anything really. Most likely water, especially if you just started. It takes a bunch of extra food to gain 2 pounds of actual body fat. But I'm glad you haven't let it scare you off. I always felt good on low carb but this really does take it to another level, doesn't it?

Lu--thanks for posting a link to that paper. I saved it to my favorites so I can read through it when I have time.
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Old 02-13-2010, 01:42 PM   #55
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Teri f - I'm at my goal weight. Looking to find the best maintenance plan to stay at goal and keep my blood glucose stable(I am diabetic - diet controlled so far). I did Dr Bernstein style VLC for a long time, recently tweaked to even lower carb levels(HI LOO!) and am now playing with changing protein/fat ratios. The higher fat is giving me good BS control but has increased my calories significantly and my weight has jumped. Too soon to worry but I'll be jumping on the scale daily and doing some self monitoring as to how I feel ie energy level? mood? hunger?

Loo - I eat a lot of cream but I've never had a problem with dairy and when I tried a month without it to see if anything changed I couldn't discern any difference so I happily brought it back. That said I have increased my consumption a lot with this high fat experiment maybe, as you suggest, a variety of fats would be ideal. I do use coconut oil, butter, and eat fatty meats(much smaller portions on this diet).

Anyway I'll be watching to see how everyone fares and wish success to all.
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Old 02-13-2010, 02:22 PM   #56
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I wish I could report some success with getting my carbs down consistently AND hunger control with the lower carbs...but I feel like I could eat the house down when I'm keeping the carbs really low and upping the fat. I'm beginning to feel like such a freak of nature--eating carbs makes me hungry, eating fat makes me hungry...what to do, what to do....I'm more than frustrated. I'm glad, though, that this is working so well for some of you. I honestly don't know what to eat anymore.
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Old 02-13-2010, 08:48 PM   #57
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I wish I could report some success with getting my carbs down consistently AND hunger control with the lower carbs...but I feel like I could eat the house down when I'm keeping the carbs really low and upping the fat. I'm beginning to feel like such a freak of nature--eating carbs makes me hungry, eating fat makes me hungry...what to do, what to do....I'm more than frustrated. I'm glad, though, that this is working so well for some of you. I honestly don't know what to eat anymore.
Why don't you post your meals for a couple days. Maybe we can help you find what is wrong?
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Old 02-14-2010, 09:06 AM   #58
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Hi guys! Sorry, I've been a bit MIA. Everything's still going well and despite a "treat" I had last night, my body's still functioning in ketosis this morning and I feel fantastic.

DH and I did our Valentine's dinner last night at this museum (Miss Hattie's Bordello) that served a wonderful 21 day aged, Mesquite smoked ribeye with a horseradish, cilantro sauce. I'm not normally a fan (at all!) of cilantro, but this was really good. Side was a double helping of green beans in place of a baked potato. DH had a pecan encrusted salmon fillet (more breading than pecans) with a red wine reduction and green beans. I was surprised that DH was okay with eating the breading! I had a bite, too, and it was really good. Overall, yesterday's ratios were probably a bit low. I didn't eat a whole lot overall until that huge ribeye at dinner.

After dinner, we went out to see if we could find some of the 80% Lindt Chocolate that everyone around here raves about. I believe I've read that Dr. Harris eats this, as well. Found that plus a sea salt one, but the sugar/carbs are significantly higher in that one. I had a tiny sliver of both and the plain 80% had me running for water because it was so intense. LOL Good, but intense. I really like the sea salt bar of chocolate. It's unique with its crystals of salt mixed into the chocolate. I also ended up coming home with a full fat, full sugar cream puff from the specialty dessert bar. It wasn't an impulse buy, for the first time in my life. Who was it that said that the first bite or two of anything sweet tastes really good but then the rest of it...you can't really taste it? That may have been Dr. Atkins...not sure. Anyway, it's absolutely true for me. And it was exciting that I wasn't obsessively and compulsively packing the thing away. The "frenzy" that I used to feel around sugar has been replaced, I think, by caution more than anything else. Because, yes, I am terrified of what sugar will do to my body. I guess, now I need to work on the emotional or habitual side...the expectation of something sweet on special occasions. My birthday is in two days, I'll be 29, and my goal for this year is to get healthy, get happy, and get to goal (80 pounds may be a bit lofty, but I'm flexible) by the time I'm 30. Instead of ringin' in this new year of my life "celebrating a sugar addiction" like I have every.single.year for my entire life, I'll make it a tribute to this wonderful new lifestyle. Try to take the focus off of food. Find a balance of health and pleasure within the range of eating to live and living to eat. Enjoy looking nice and taking care of myself more. Try new styles, new makeup, and get out of my rut (I've been wearing the exact same makeup for the past 10 years - same brands, same formulas. Same with clothing). I want to find a sport or activity that I really enjoy. I couldn't swim my way out of a paper bag, but I would love to be able to, so that may be an option. I do love my HIIT when I have the energy to actually do ANYthing, but I'd love to branch out and maybe do some swimming or something. I can't swim my way out of a paper bag...but I'd love to be able to! LOL Weight lifting is in my plans, as well.

On the topic of sports and exercise and whatnot, massive kudos to you, Teri, for your post on the Lobby debunking the whole "VLCer's/NCer's say not to exercise." I wish I could be so eloquent and concise with my writing (I'm more of a bull in a china shop LOL). Since getting into the Paleo WOE, I've noticed that many have huge misconceptions about it (even I did! I thought it was "raw eating") - some even seem to have contempt for it. It really boggles my mind, as it's not all that different from what Dr. Atkins has written about. For me, the major difference is simply that I don't associate with frankenfood, whereas with Atkins, it was, mentally, a viable option. Just the change in terminology was enough to change my core thinking. Anyway...whatever. Thank you for your dedication to putting the story straight for those who may not know.

I plan on starting Good Calories, Bad Calories today. I'm eager to read the info that prompted Dr. Harris to start his PaNu blog.

Oh, and as an afterthought, I am stoked that my body is apparently functioning more efficiently and handling the variety of foods that I eat. Specifically, the sugar from last night. I fully expected to feel like crap this morning and be out of ketosis and have to go through the 3 days it usually takes to get back into it. Nope! I did feel icky after eating it last night, but thankfully, this morning, I'm all good to go. DH said that he'd read on Dr. Harris' blog that after we eat this way for a while, our bodies become more optimized for metabolizing all sorts of food. If that's the case, then I certainly feel today, like I've been doing the right thing. Back on plan!

This was my ramble for the day. LOL I hope everyone's have a wonderful weekend and that y'all feel fantastic.
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Old 02-14-2010, 09:13 AM   #59
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I am at goal and I do not count calories. I probably eat over 2000 calories on most days and funny thing I have surpassed my goal and am still losing. I do workout with weights 3-4 days a week but I know what has been the key to my health and well being is going VLC.

I don't hang out in the Maintain Lane b/c I do not like the whole counting calories thing. I have read many of the comments in the Maintain Lane and the general concensus is that most of those in the "lobby" are morons and in denial that calories do count.

I prefer to help those struggling b/c I know what it's like to struggle and to be told that clearly they should cut their calories even lower from their already low 1200-1500 calories. I lived that lie for a long time. Before LC I had to eat under a 1000 calories a day and workout like hell to stay in my size 2-4's . Let me tell you THAT wasn't living. I don't over think a thing anymore. I eat when I am hungry stay clear of carbs and voila I am at goal and beyond.

I hope all you Paleo's are having a wonderful day!
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Old 02-14-2010, 09:34 AM   #60
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Okay...catching up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shunsweets View Post
My protein intake has lowered. One burger is plenty when fried in coconut oil and covered with cream gravy. In fact I find myself wanting more fatty gravy and could do without the meat!

My blood sugar is the best it's been in weeks. I have low insulin production but what little I have seems able to do the trick with this diet.
I've found that upping my fat cuts my desire for more protein, as well. Not really even desire...it's more that if I eat enough fat, I canNOT eat a whole lot of protein. I do like this, though.

I'm really glad you're finding that your blood sugar is improving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Looweewoo View Post
I also read through this every couple of months, just to keep my own autistic behavior in Paleo perspective.
Thank you for the link! I'll be passing this along to my husband, as well.

Clipping my favorite points from your message, Teri...
Quote:
Originally Posted by teri f View Post
I don't think for one minute that I will be eating 2500-3000 calories a day at goal.

The things I take exception to are the insinuations (I'm not saying from you Minnas, but certainly many others) that because I'm not at goal, I can't POSSIBLY know what I'm talking about. I know quite well what I'm talking about. I get what you all are saying but you don't get it when I tell you that I have tried every single counting calorie gimmick under the sun and it simply doesn't work for me. We are participating on a low carb discussion board so I have to think the calorie counting thing didn't work for a lot of others either. Telling new people (and yes, it happens all the time) that if they stall out after a time, they may need to watch their calories is really aggravating to those who have worked so hard to get over that mind set, and who know how that can affect some people. That was the advice given to someone just recently who still weighed around 250. Give me a break here. More than likely it was just a normal stall, or maybe too many low carb treats. I can almost gaurantee you that it was carb creep of some form and not too many calories. And there are a certain number of calorie counters that always have to pile on. I know you know what I'm talking about. I don't think giving that advice to a new person on low carb is the right thing to do.

If you guys in the maintain lane are doing great counting calories, then why do some of them get their panties in such a twist over those of us who don't count calories? I don't get that either. If eating 1200 to 1400 calories a day worked for me, and I was maintaining and happy with what I was doing, I doubt I'd be hanging around a low carb board. But thats just me. There are lots of oldtimers who don't even post much or come around much because they get talked down to my some of those people. I've never been one to be intimidated, especially when I believe what I'm doing is right for me. I think thats the difference. I'm not interested in being right, I'm only interested in doing whats right for me to heal my body and get well. Just like you have to do whats right for you Minnas. VLC/high fat may not work for you, but it does work for those of us who are insulin resistant and can't tolerate higher carbs. As I stated before and what Loowee pointed out, a healthy appetite will self regulate. But if you don't have a healthy appetite, you have to do what works for you.

I personally enjoy discussions and alternative points of view. It makes me think, read and research even more. Maybe, and I'm not saying this to be a smartass, but maybe you guys should start your own calorie counting thread. It could be a good resource for those who like doing that or think calorie counting might work better for them. Maybe the separation would calm things down a bit? I don't know, just wondering. I can guarantee you that I would never venture into a calorie counting thread...lol. I've had enough of a taste of those people who would be participating and have no desire to tread into their territory.

But all that aside, I value your experience, insight, and opinion. And even if VLC/paleo type diet doesn't work for you, I hope you will still be our friend and hang around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SugarPop View Post
I'm interested in this.........I really need to peruse this thread when I have more time, but I think I'm a fit.

For the past few days I've only eaten meat and had water. Last night, however, I had a salad w/grilled chicken and bleu cheese dressing.

I'm hypersensitive to AS.........Might as well have sugar.

Going hardcore

B
Glad to see you in here, SP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Looweewoo View Post
I've just ordered "Primal Blueprint" and "The Paleo Diet" then I saw this thread. Coincidental?

I think I want to go a little more Carnivore than what I understand Paleo to be, but the philosophy is the same...

BTW, I think many people's objection to the "Counting Calories" thing is not the over quoted laws of Thermodynamics, but the idea that a healthy person has to calculate every bite they eat and if something pushes them over a certain arbitrary number they have to deny themselves. That's "Counting Calories" to me, and I just know too many folks who lost and maintained without doing that.

A healthy appetite will self regulate, but I guess some folks don't ever get back to a healthy appetite.
Welcome, Loo! I totally agree with you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2bflawless View Post
Hang in there, Stephanie. I watched myself put 20+ pounds before treatment all the while I lifted and ate 20-30grams of carbs and tracked every morsel. I no longer track, I become to obsessed and I have far too much going on with the family to spend time punching things in. What I found is that I would not be hungry but see that I only ate X amount of calories and say Oh, I can eat more cause so and so said I should eat this many per day. Wrong, now I listen to my body, know the carb counts of all the foods I consume and leave it there. Obviously it works for me. It's food not rocket science!
Thanks, love! That's exactly what I'm trying to get away from (the bolded quote).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2bflawless View Post
I am glad you have the appt with hopefully a doc that gets its. You have your ammo now just work your charm to get the meds you need!

ETA: Be sure to baby yourself right now. No strenuous activity and try to rest when you feel fatigued. Pushing it can be the worst thing for you right now, K?
Am doing. I'm excited to start treatment, though, and see what kind of energy comes back/balances out. Really. I used to LOVE working out and while I don't expect to be anywhere near as hardcore as when my body was in hypER (the anxiety sucked, but I did love running 3x a day during that). Now that I know that I'll be feeling better soon, I feel like doors of possibility have opened up.

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