Paleo diet

[fluffybear2]

Originally Posted by Goldenrod

That being said, I have to agree with Fawn, about eating more antioxidant-rich veggies and fruits, because of the toxic environment we've created for ourselves, and that our ancestors didn't have to protect themselves against.

I agree about that too, This is I prefer the Paleo Diet over standard low carb diets. You eat lots and lots of fruit and vegetables wight from the start. We need these more than ever. I don't agree with those who believe that humans living in paleolithic times were carnivores.I also don't believe that people living in climate extremes today or anytime necessarily represent the norms. For instance, even during the great ice age, there were still many humans living in temperate to tropical climates, eating omnivorous diets. Not everyone lived in caves in the frozen north eating only caribou, fish and seals. So those who tout Steffansons's experience with modern Inuits in the Arctic and say we should emulate them are incorrect IMHO. Today's Inuits suffer all kinds of debilitating health problems because the meat they eat is polluted with environmental toxins and they get few, if any, antioxidants in their traditional diet.

[Goldenrod]

Originally Posted by weasel!

Goldenrod, if you liked the PBS special Guns, Germs and Steel and it left you wanting more, then you'll LOVE the book. It's not dry and textbookish at all, but wonderfully written and engaging. It is large and it is time-consuming, but if the time is enjoyable, that's a good thing.

Okay, you've convinced me!
Reading is my favorite hobby, so even if the book takes me a while to get through, I'm sure it'll be really interesting, so it'll be a labor of love.

[Tesaje]

I think that at least seasonally, the paleolithic peoples must have eaten fruits and vegetables along with their proteins. Some seed plants were probably also included. The wild "rice" gathered by the Native Americans has been eaten forever. It was never cultivated but always gathered wild. They might have gathered some grass seeds but not as much as we eat now and they weren't as starchy as they are now.

The thing about fruits that would have been available is that they had a lot less sugar in them. Modern fruits have been bred to contain a lot more sugar than their wild cousins. Certainly the more tropical peoples would have had constant supplies of vegetables. There may be different adaptations depending on where your ancestors lived. Mine all came from Northern Europe and Asia so my genes are probably more adapted to the European ice age climate than someone whose genes came from the tropics.

I also question the claim that our dietetic adaptions date to a couple of million years ago. Our species is only a couple 100,000 years old. The earlier man was a different species and we don't even know whether they were closely related enough to interbreed or not, let alone if our dietary needs were the same.

If a different species arose as recently as 200,000 years ago, then our dietetic needs could well have adapted more recently than that. Probably 30,000 to 15,000 years ago would have solidified the adaptations with the major species migration haveing been completed by then. Not much changed in the lifestyles for many millenia until the advent of agriculture.

Barry Groves claims that paleolithic peoples were not ever fat. But there are paleolithic stone carvings of very fat and pregnant women they think were a goddess figurine. The carvings were always made of a very obese woman who also looks pregnant - with very fat thighs. This would indicate that obesity might have occurred. Maybe when vegetables and fruits were plentiful and the fat Venus figurine might have indicated that this was what happened when the earth was very fruitful. I don't know if skeletal remains can show obesity or not. Maybe obesity was rare so the goddess figurine was an idealized representation of a bountiful earth?

[jem51]

fluffy, i just posted on the 'other plan' thread. so here you are. it has been a month for you, now and i was just wondering?? i like your plan..

[jem51]

yes, fruits today are much sweeter but there have always been very sweet fruits...dates for instance are prehistoric. there are some that are hybrids (medjool) but many are direct decendants. i'm sure in areas where they were available, early humans made themselves sugar drunk on them. actually, humans and any other creatures.

[fluffybear2]

Originally Posted by jem51

fluffy, i just posted on the 'other plan' thread. so here you are. it has been a month for you, now and i was just wondering?? i like your plan..

I am losing between about 1 lb. per week which for me is good considering all the metabolic problems I have. Also if I lose too fast I end up with cravings and then cheat and the process starts all over again. I LOVE this way of eating for 2 reasons:

1) Its ALL fresh stuff

2) It is very easy to do (no induction, not a lot of rules or do's & don'ts--you just cut out grains, legumes, sugar and dairy).

[fluffybear2]

Originally Posted by jem51

yes, fruits today are much sweeter but there have always been very sweet fruits...dates for instance are prehistoric. there are some that are hybrids (medjool) but many are direct decendants. i'm sure in areas where they were available, early humans made themselves sugar drunk on them. actually, humans and any other creatures.

I live in the Midwest and grow many of my own fruits--cherries, apples, peaches & berries. I used to live in Florida and grew papaya. avacados and citrus. I also have a veggie garden every year.

[jem51]

1# weekly is great. i've always thought paleo was a great stall breaker as well. from raw vegan, i went paleo and loved it. now, it would be very hard for me to give up cultured dairy. also, i always grow things. as soon as i close on property, i plant things before i even move in. here i have blueberries, raspberries, apple, plum, pear and cherry. they are all young but still produce. in FL i had the best grapefruit anyone had ever eaten and i could feed the neighborhood. i also planted avo, banana, lime, tangerine, papaya and mango. it is amazing what you can grow on a standard city lot. i cannot eat much fruit now but still keep a garden. i am passionate about growing edibles even if i can't consume it all.

[fluffybear2]

Originally Posted by jem51

1# weekly is great. i've always thought paleo was a great stall breaker as well. from raw vegan, i went paleo and loved it. now, it would be very hard for me to give up cultured dairy. also, i always grow things. as soon as i close on property, i plant things before i even move in. here i have blueberries, raspberries, apple, plum, pear and cherry. they are all young but still produce. in FL i had the best grapefruit anyone had ever eaten and i could feed the neighborhood. i also planted avo, banana, lime, tangerine, papaya and mango. it is amazing what you can grow on a standard city lot. i cannot eat much fruit now but still keep a garden. i am passionate about growing edibles even if i can't consume it all.

You sound a lot like me. I have lived in a lot of different places too and I enjoy planting what I call an "edible landscape." Whatever I don't eat the birds and other critters can have. Actually last year I think wild animals ate more of my garden than I did.

[Tesaje]

Originally Posted by fluffybear2

You sound a lot like me. I have lived in a lot of different places too and I enjoy planting what I call an "edible landscape." Whatever I don't eat the birds and other critters can have. Actually last year I think wild animals ate more of my garden than I did.

Me too. Vegetable and fruit are beautiful and I go organic gardening all the way. What I don't eat, put up or give away, I just let it go back to nourishing the soil. But I think garden produce is why I gained back. Just can't seem to find the key to get it off again.

Why are legumes off the menu on Paleo? Seems like some of them would have been around back then too. Some are poisonous, I know.

[fluffybear2]

Originally Posted by Tesaje

Me too. Vegetable and fruit are beautiful and I go organic gardening all the way. What I don't eat, put up or give away, I just let it go back to nourishing the soil. But I think garden produce is why I gained back. Just can't seem to find the key to get it off again.

Why are legumes off the menu on Paleo? Seems like some of them would have been around back then too. Some are poisonous, I know.

The easiest explanation might be that our earliest ancestors did not always have time to cook. They had to move a lot as they foraged and depleted certain areas and many hunter-gatherers did not stay in one place long enough to do what it takes to make beans edible (soaking & boiling). Perhaps they tried to eat them raw and got sick, just as would happen today if we tried to eat a lot of raw beans. Legumes still present some problems today. Raw peanuts for example if stored improperly can get a toxic mold called aflatoxin. Also some beans contain antinutrients such as lectins which can cause problems to humans. Phytohaemagglutinin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I like beans myself and love peanut butter, but surprisingly haven't missed them at all.

[weasel!]

Earlier than ancestors who did or did not have time to cook, were ancestors who did not cook.

I think that we added foods that require cooking (grains, beans) as we developed technogies (vessels, grinding, use of fire). I think we added things that we discovered that we could eat, and that we figured out how to eat. Subsequently we developed dependencies on them as our populations grew. I do not think it's possible that we evolved eating them. That's my theory, anyway.

[fluffybear2]

Originally Posted by weasel!

Earlier than ancestors who did or did not have time to cook, were ancestors who did not cook.

I think that we added foods that require cooking (grains, beans) as we developed technogies (vessels, grinding, use of fire). I think we added things that we discovered that we could eat, and that we figured out how to eat. Subsequently we developed dependencies on them as our populations grew. I do not think it's possible that we evolved eating them. That's my theory, anyway.

That is true. There was a time when those who did not have time to cook also did not know how to cook. Fire is thought to have been discovered between 400,000 and 700,000 years ago by the earliest hominins. The advent of cooking is thought to be much later by genetically modern humans. So cooked foods of any type were not a part of human evolution. When humans began to process foods that could be eaten after cooking they began to look for those specific foods more and they began to plant the seeds which of course was the beginning of agriculture.

[lowcarbnz]

Sorry to chip in... I just saw the irony of something you said...

[QUOTE=fluffybear2;11532755]That is true. There was a time when those who did not have time to cook also did not know how to cook.

Sounds like you are talking about 2009....

[paleopaleo]

I'm subscribing to this great thread. As a long-term paleo devotee, I've also done tons of research on nutritional anthropology over the years and even wrote papers on it for my degree many years ago. Even so, I'm always amazed by the astute insights of others sharing the same interest.

I've been looking for a home on this site and think I may have found it. I've been looking through the paleo area itself, but I'm not really enjoying the combatative tone I see in several threads. I'm interested in expanding my knowledge, not convincing anyone else to follow my path!

I'm currently experimenting with a sort of modified Stillman's QWL, which basically means I'm still eating totally paleo, but a somewhat higher protein, lower calorie, lower carb version. For me 45-50% fat is LOW and I think I may be unsettling the committed folk on the fat-avoiding Stillman's forum.

[weasel!]

Welcome, paleopaleo. One of the nice things about lowcarbfriends is the diversity, and the staggering variety of way to do low-carb. I hope you do find a home in this area, just because I'm eager to learn about the stuff you've learned about nutritional anthropology!

Originally Posted by lowcarbnz

Sounds like you are talking about 2009....

LOL! Full circle, eh?

[fluffybear2]

[quote=lowcarbnz;11532965]Sorry to chip in... I just saw the irony of something you said...

Originally Posted by fluffybear2

That is true. There was a time when those who did not have time to cook also did not know how to cook.

Sounds like you are talking about 2009....

Hmmm we may be DE-VOLVING.

[fluffybear2]

Originally Posted by paleopaleo

I'm subscribing to this great thread. As a long-term paleo devotee, I've also done tons of research on nutritional anthropology over the years and even wrote papers on it for my degree many years ago. Even so, I'm always amazed by the astute insights of others sharing the same interest.

I've been looking for a home on this site and think I may have found it. I've been looking through the paleo area itself, but I'm not really enjoying the combatative tone I see in several threads. I'm interested in expanding my knowledge, not convincing anyone else to follow my path!

I'm currently experimenting with a sort of modified Stillman's QWL, which basically means I'm still eating totally paleo, but a somewhat higher protein, lower calorie, lower carb version. For me 45-50% fat is LOW and I think I may be unsettling the committed folk on the fat-avoiding Stillman's forum.

Welcome to the discussion. I look forward to your imput!

[Darkfire]

I think it would get a better reception if we stopped saying a thing about our ancestors and the two biggies that wrote about these ways of eating. It's like the difference in saying "Atkins" or "I don't eat white processed carbs".

For me I take the principles of Paleo (simple no crap) and Atkins (no crap) and Organic (no crap) and put it all together.

[fluffybear2]

Originally Posted by Darkfire

I think it would get a better reception if we stopped saying a thing about our ancestors and the two biggies that wrote about these ways of eating. It's like the difference in saying "Atkins" or "I don't eat white processed carbs".

For me I take the principles of Paleo (simple no crap) and Atkins (no crap) and Organic (no crap) and put it all together.

While I personally don't care myself about whether others accept "me" being on what's called the Paleo diet, I understand what you mean. The Paleo Diet has not caught on like some other diets have in the eyes of the public, but the same could be said for Eat Fat, Get Thin or any number of other plans out there. There are a couple of niche' groups however that are following paleo style plans. One group is people who either have studied a lot about evolution, anthropology, etc. and love talking about that aspect of it along with eating that way (that would be me) and the others are hunters and those who like to live off the land at least part time. Of course there are many others besides those groups but from reading various forums with paleo threads, that's my assessment. For me calling it the Paleo Diet (and I go by Loren Cordain's version) adds meaning to what I am doing and makes a lot of sense to me personally because whenever I think about going back to eating processed foods, grains, etc. I remind myself that we did not evolve eating that way. For those who don't believe in evolution, well what can I say???

[Darkfire]

I get you and that is cool, I just meant that people getting flack even from Atkins folks about eating Paleo and I was just saying call it something else. But then again catering to people's irrational fears is a bad idea.....

For me trying to describe Paleo my friends throw my own logic about reconstruction ism in Religion. IE: Greek Re constructionists from the Elysian Mysteries and such. I say we will never know what they did, the mysteries are lost. They then tell me the same about our Paleo peeps, we will never know what they ate every day etc.

[fluffybear2]

Originally Posted by Darkfire

I get you and that is cool, I just meant that people getting flack even from Atkins folks about eating Paleo and I was just saying call it something else. But then again catering to people's irrational fears is a bad idea.....

For me trying to describe Paleo my friends throw my own logic about reconstruction ism in Religion. IE: Greek Re constructionists from the Elysian Mysteries and such. I say we will never know what they did, the mysteries are lost. They then tell me the same about our Paleo peeps, we will never know what they ate every day etc.

That is true, we cannot reconstruct the past exactly, esp. the prehistoric past, but we can say for certain what pre-agricultural humans did NOT eat. They did not eat packaged or canned food. Although they did eat the ancestors of present day cattle (determined from finding fossilized bones around campfires), they certainly didn't eat beef that was unnaturally fattened up on corn and soybeans and packed so closely in pens that they were prone to disease. They also didn't eat refined (except honey naturally refined by bees) sugar. They may have eaten some salt from natural salt licks and salty plants, but they did not eat anywhere near the salt that present humans consume. And most importantly of all they did not eat an abundance of processed grains, if any at all. So that pretty much eliminates everything but meat, fowl and fish/shellfish, some type of fruit, nuts, roots, possibly some melons and tubers and leafy greens.

[Darkfire]

ITA

[fluffybear2]

Here is what I bought at the grocery store last week:

Ham hocks
Whole uncured ham
Pork chops
2 for 1 sirloin tip roasts
shrimp
small breakfast steaks
small pork steaks
turnips greens
dandelion greens
broccoli rabe
carrots
radishes
cucumbers
red onions
white onions
asparagus
bananas
blackberries
pineapple
coconut in the shell
plums
kiwis
star fruit
pistachio nuts

Feel free to post your shopping lists.

[weasel!]

Our paleo peeps most certainly also ate some eggs here and there when they could snatch 'em from a nest.

[fluffybear2]

Originally Posted by weasel!

Our paleo peeps most certainly also eggs here and there when they could snatch 'em from a nest.

Oops--I did indeed buy eggs--organic free range brown ones.

[fluffybear2]

p.s. I love this WOE and not having to wind my way through the middle of the grocery store. I just cruise around the perimeter. Sure saves a lot of time.

Also I just found a good and readily available source of grass-fed organic beef, pork, lamb and goat. It is a farm that has a retail space at our local farmer's market. I may just start buying my food there rather than in a regular grocery store. It's a pretty neat farmer's market with all kinds of retail vendors including those who sell hot lunches. The entire upstairs has tables and chairs for those who buy meals at the farmer's market.We can just go there for lunch and then shop for groceries afterwards--very convenient and everything is FRESH.

[fawn]

Fluffy, I want to hang out at your farmers market! Congratulations on your finds......eating consciously is also very important!

And I love this!

For me I take the principles of Paleo (simple no crap) and Atkins (no crap) and Organic (no crap) and put it all together.

[fluffybear2]

Originally Posted by fawn

Fluffy, I want to hang out at your farmers market! Congratulations on your finds......eating consciously is also very important!

And I love this!

That's about it. I still have my Fage yogurt that you introduced so many of us to here on LCF--it is my once a week treat.

[fawn]

Thank you fluffy for your hard work on the paleo research. While it's fascinating I personally don't beleive a lot of what is out there is condusive to modern day eating for many different reasons and I'm not quite selfish enough to consume animal proteins in the manner that is currently being promoted on other threads and boards (ie: someone I hear actually believes they are doing their body good by consuming strictly walmart tubes) though I do believe clean natural animal proteins imperative to health. Extremes just don't get us far in modern day society. That's my opinion.

In researching, I have a question of interest.......everyone refers to the inuit as if somehow everyone evolved from this particular group.
Do those of you who have researched this have knowledge from your personal evolutionary history? ie: I am of Native American descent. In speaking with my relatives and in some small research I have done, we lived primarily on small game like birds and squirrel as well, acorns etc....... What's your input?