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Old 08-17-2013, 05:21 PM   #1
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anyone have experience w shangri-la?

I want the scoop.
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Old 08-17-2013, 06:26 PM   #2
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You mean this?

Stephan Guyenet Recommendations - Reduce Food Reward in Paleo Setting

I know the title of the thread will throw you off, but it IS about the Shrangri-la diet. Copied from the thread: "An Alternative Strategy

In his book The Shangri-La Diet, psychology researcher Dr. Seth Roberts outlines a simple strategy that he claims can lower the body fat setpoint without significantly altering the diet. The technique involves taking flavorless calorie-containing foods between meals, which lowers overall energy intake by suppressing appetite (according to him, by lowering the setpoint). I'm not going to steal his thunder, so you can read his book, or visit his website or forum if you want more information about how to implement it.

I tried Dr. Roberts' strategy for a week out of curiosity, and it did suppress my appetite somewhat. According to the theory, the more excess fat mass you begin with, the more your appetite should be suppressed. I didn't have much fat to lose, but I noticed a modest effect on my appetite nevertheless. I have a few reservations about the technique. I don't know much about its long-term effectiveness or safety, and neither does Dr. Roberts, according to our communications. It doesn't strike me as having the potential to be very dangerous, but as our ancestors didn't sip refined olive oil between meals, the precautionary principle applies. Still, it's an interesting technique that I'll be keeping my eye on in the upcoming years. "
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Old 08-17-2013, 06:28 PM   #3
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I didn't want this thread to get overshadowed by what I pasted above. Here is another thread:

MCT Oil
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Old 08-17-2013, 09:23 PM   #4
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Come on over and take a peek at the thread!

I've titled it Stephan Guyenet because I think he understands why Shangri-La works, and coupling it with Stephan Guyenet's bland paleo diet recommendations among other tips really kicks it up to incredible effectiveness.

We've been doing it with MCT oil instead of the olive oil. Seth Roberts (author) now writes that he does it with butter mixed with roast beef, and he clips his nose to make it flavorless. I think he has discovered ketones. He believes butter is incredibly good for brain function, based on experiments he has run on himself; hence the change.

Anyway, this is a leptin hack. The flavorless calories, the bland food, the no snacking, the anti-inflammatory diet, it gives the brain a chance to finally detect the leptin put out by the fat stores. Therefore, central command center in the brain for metabolism, the hypothalamus, finally goes, oh, there are plentiful fat stores! OK, time to ramp down appetite and stop throttling down the metabolism.

Seth Roberts, on the other hand, sites Pavlov's dogs and flavor associations with appetite and the fat set point. He believes it drops the fat set point by tricking the brain into thinking there's nothing worth eating to find here, so no reason to ramp the appetite up.

I don't care why it works; it works!

The biggest benefit to me so far is I have warmed up (I was ice cold to the point of being unable to tolerate cold drinks even) and I no longer have to do the potato hack or protein-sparing modified fasts for weight loss. I've given up coffee and the massive amount of sweetener it takes to get the coffee down and get a lot of energy from MCT oil, green tea (and/or green tea extract), and a little dark 85% chocolate.

I am super happy. I can have a few regular, good-tasting meals with friends now. People are noticing I have dropped weight. My body composition is changing (is it the MCT oil? It could be).
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Old 08-18-2013, 05:00 AM   #5
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I have been on it since August 1st and I am amazed how wonderfully this works for me. I take 1 tbl of ghee twice a day with nose clipped. That's all I do. I have lost 7 lbs and developed normal relationship with food. My portions sizes went down dramatically and I am no longer thinking of food 24/7. SLD is FANTASTIC!!!!!
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Old 08-18-2013, 08:32 AM   #6
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I must research some of this. I have never heard of the Potato hack either. Nutrition and Diets fascinate me.
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Old 08-18-2013, 08:58 AM   #7
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This is a plan for someone who has lots of cravings and/or who appears to be stalled? A plan to do when others don't work? I read quite a bit about it but never did find that info.
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Old 08-18-2013, 09:28 AM   #8
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I've read stories all over the map about people that find it to work.

The thing about it is that there is a ramp up time where needs to build up to become effective. The time span varies by person.

The cool thing is that you can apply it to just about any plan you are on. It is probably multifactorial in what makes it work.

Note the flavorless windows and use of an oil/fat. Obviously, there is no release of insulin during this period. This could very well be taking the place of snacking that is causing someone to release insulin all day long, preventing weight loss.

Who the heck wants to drink oil! You have to measure it out to make sure you get enough of it. This could be turning appetites off right there. I think this particularly affects my daughter. She thinks the olive oil (which we are not using anymore) is so disgusting you can't eat. The nose clipping is the same thing - it is like when you can't eat when you have a cold because nothing tastes right and seems gross when you cant smell it.

There is no food reward; no stimulation of the brain. This is supposed to help the brain become more leptin sensitive. Your body's metabolism control center in the brain finally notices you have fat on board so things are OK and stops acting like you are starving to death. It lowers the fat set point.
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Old 08-18-2013, 09:36 AM   #9
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Yes, I agree, KT. It is not a plan I'd want to try unless desperate.

I found a lot of seemingly conflicting info on it, too. Some said the oil is added in addition to regular meals & yu lose fat while increasing calories. Other info stated the plan works because you lose interest in food and end up eating 500-600 calories per day
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Old 08-18-2013, 09:51 AM   #10
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I'm actually finding the MCT oil very easy to drink. It is thin and flavorless. This is much preferable to extreme measures I was having to take to lose or even just maintain weight. I am happy. I can eat out a couple of times a week now. I can neutralize the effects of a tasty meal out by neutralizing the ramp up in appetite that follows with the oil. I can get over it quickly within the next day. Normally, this can set off a real problem for me.

My daughter, on the other hand, is having a harder time. She is getting used to it. I have bought the MCT oil capsules for when she goes back to the dorm in the fall because I don't think she will do it on her own. She has lost weight. She lost weight on the potato hack earlier this year, but she just can't stand doing it anymore. She is also having a terrible time with bland foods (I don't understand this; I am super happy just to have something to eat). This Shangri-La is a relief for her.

She is down about 16 pounds on the oil. She lost a similar amount on the potato hack earlier this year but regained it on the horrible dorm college plan food.

I read on the Shangri-La forums that some people have to resort to oil capsules.

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Old 08-18-2013, 10:41 AM   #11
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Yes, I agree, KT. It is not a plan I'd want to try unless desperate.

I found a lot of seemingly conflicting info on it, too. Some said the oil is added in addition to regular meals & yu lose fat while increasing calories. Other info stated the plan works because you lose interest in food and end up eating 500-600 calories per day
I have no problem taking 2 tbls of ghee a day. Lots of people on LC (or any other diet) eat fat, the only difference is they combine in with food.

I don't know how can SLD be effective if you eat the same number of calories you always ate and take additional 200-300 cal in oil. I find myself eating lot less calories now and from what I read this is the case with most people. There are some people who take longer to achieve AS (appetite suppression). It clicked with me after 1 dosage.

I have developed different relationship with food now. I enjoy lot more variety of veggies now without waking up the binge monster. I am not craving any fruits, honey, yogurt and nuts I used to binge on. I eat lot more veggies now with meat, fish, eggs with occasional fruit.
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:28 AM   #12
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I tried it and it didn't work well for me.

I used walnut oil and never tried nose clipping. I had a hard time with the flavorless window. Not eating wasn't a problem, but I am usually drinking something like tea or coffee. I gave it about three weeks and didn't notice any changes, maybe that wasn't long enough.
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:38 AM   #13
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I tried it and it didn't work well for me.

I used walnut oil and never tried nose clipping. I had a hard time with the flavorless window. Not eating wasn't a problem, but I am usually drinking something like tea or coffee. I gave it about three weeks and didn't notice any changes, maybe that wasn't long enough.
The walnut oil has to be refined. Regular one has too much flavor if you don't clip your nose. If you taste the oil SLD will not work. I use ghee, which has a lot of flavor but I use swimmer's nose clip and I don't taste anything. You can do flavorless window late evening or early morning. Some people who have schedules issues take it all at once dosage.
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:45 AM   #14
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Note the flavorless windows and use of an oil/fat. Obviously, there is no release of insulin during this period. This could very well be taking the place of snacking that is causing someone to release insulin all day long, preventing weight loss.
This is interesting on general IF.
Dr Johnson had responded to someone (I will try to find the posted comments about it)but apparently adding coconut oil to coffee, even on "down days" (ultra low cal days on the IF judd plan)did not "break the fast" or cause a loss of SIRT1 benefits.
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:49 AM   #15
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I use MCT oil during the day, which is totally flavorless. I highly recommend it. I used to wonder about people that said they got energy from coconut oil. I never felt a thing, but I was using it in treats, and it made me feel ill.

I get this warm buzz on with the MCT oil, even when I am sitting I just feel warm and happy on MCT oil. It is such a cool thing. No odd feelings of being ill, but the first couple of days were rough-going. One needs to work up to the dose needed.

I have been using Kerrygold unsalted butter as well. I've got the swimmer's clips! I know it sounds odd, but it is really useful.

I have heard it can take 4-6 weeks to really kick in. I didn't have to wait long, but I have noticed that the effect was more pronounced a few weeks in.
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:52 AM   #16
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On the very low cal days, I will add 1-2tsp coconut oil to my coffee and blend it in because it really takes the edge off my appetite for hours.
Still giving a hat-tip to Ntombi for mentioning the aerolatte frother, makes quick work of blending the oil into the coffee
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:53 AM   #17
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This is interesting on general IF.
Dr Johnson had responded to someone (I will try to find the posted comments about it)but apparently adding coconut oil to coffee, even on "down days" (ultra low cal days on the IF judd plan)did not "break the fast" or cause a loss of SIRT1 benefits.
Ah, this reminds me of the bulletproof coffee guy. He does this fast with unsalted butter and MCT oil mixed into his special coffee for some number of days.

He puts it in some sort of blender. I've seen people put up pics of it - I think some are using that magic bullet blender to make this butter/MCT oil coffee, then they just drink right out of the blender cup.
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:58 AM   #18
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I found a lot of seemingly conflicting info on it, too. Some said the oil is added in addition to regular meals & yu lose fat while increasing calories. Other info stated the plan works because you lose interest in food and end up eating 500-600 calories per day
I have seen some guy claim he didn't decrease calories and charted his weight loss and everything. Who knows. Maybe he wasn't fully aware of how much he used to eat? Maybe he just needed more hours in the day of non-protein/non-carbs to quit releasing insulin all the time?
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Old 08-18-2013, 12:10 PM   #19
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I have seen some guy claim he didn't decrease calories and charted his weight loss and everything. Who knows. Maybe he wasn't fully aware of how much he used to eat? Maybe he just needed more hours in the day of non-protein/non-carbs to quit releasing insulin all the time?
I am not sure how some of these things work.

I once added 6T virgin coconut oil and 6 big capsules of CLA per day on top of the food I was supposed to eat on a specific fat loss plan. It added a lot of calories (I seem to recall over 1000 extra calories) but the fat just melted away. I followed the food plan 100% every single day. It did not make sense to me but I had to admit it worked great.
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Old 08-18-2013, 01:32 PM   #20
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I do not understand this:

This could very well be taking the place of snacking that is causing someone to release insulin all day long, preventing weight loss.

I lost my final 100 lbs following JUDDD, and my DDs were about 370 calories. Unlike many people, I didn't eat once a day, but I felt best eating 50 to 70 cal 'snacks' throughout the day--all high protein. I ate similarly on my higher-calorie UDs with snacks of about 100-150 cal.

I lost weight well, so I don't understand why the release of insulin (which occurs with any food we eat) inhibits weight loss.

My understanding is that many of us (myself included) can overproduce insulin in response to eating carbs. It's that insulin 'spike' that rapidly lowers blood sugar and causes hunger soon after eating--leading to overeating. It's the overeating that inhibits weight loss and/or causes us to gain weight.

I certainly had no problems losing (and maintaining my loss) snacking throughout the day rather than eating substantial meals. In fact, for someone as sensitive to carbs as I am, snacks may work better for weight loss because so little insulin is released each time I eat.
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Old 08-18-2013, 01:50 PM   #21
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I agree that seems like a plan for the desparate.
I would need to be really desparate before sipping oil and clipping my nose.
Flavorless calories?
Ummmmmmmm.....nah.
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:25 PM   #22
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The walnut oil has to be refined. Regular one has too much flavor if you don't clip your nose. If you taste the oil SLD will not work. I use ghee, which has a lot of flavor but I use swimmer's nose clip and I don't taste anything. You can do flavorless window late evening or early morning. Some people who have schedules issues take it all at once dosage.
I held my nose with my fingers, but didn't buy the clips.

I tried taking it in the early morning, but that got in the way of my coffee. It helped, but really not enough to make it worth doing. I tried at night before bed to make the window easier, but that didn't seem to do anything at all.
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:31 PM   #23
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Thanks Dawnyama and Key Tones! I spent half the night reading that thread.

Quote:
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This is a plan for someone who has lots of cravings and/or who appears to be stalled? A plan to do when others don't work? I read quite a bit about it but never did find that info.
I am intrigued by the idea of moving the set point. I also think this resonates with some of my own impulses -- for example, I have for a long time felt like a lot of my problem is enjoying foods too much. My husband is perfectly happy eating boring tasteless foods for most of his meals and he has not had the same weight issues I have (he was very heavy for a while, after he stopped exercising or paying attn to his weight during law school, but in the last six years or so he's slowly but fairly easily and without any hitting his head against the wall, lost about 70 pounds). I have always been obsessed with yummy foods. And I have never felt like eating foods that I don't LOVE was even remotely appealing. Over the last couple of years I have focused on trying to fuel my body rather than use food as entertainment. It's a little different than the tasteless calorie idea, but I do think it may come from the same impulse. Plus, I do love the idea of the set point moving down.

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Yes, I agree, KT. It is not a plan I'd want to try unless desperate.
See, I don't get this at all. I think that drinking some oil a couple of times a day, if that was all it took (ie, I'm not also doing all of the other crazy things I do, like IF and nearly zero carb - none of which the SLD claims to need me to do), would be so easy, way easier than anything else I've done. I am planning on adding it to my plan though. I love IF'ing and I do think that VLC is great for my weightloss and blood sugar. But jeez, drinking a little oil just doesn't sound like any skin off my back.

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This is interesting on general IF.
Dr Johnson had responded to someone (I will try to find the posted comments about it)but apparently adding coconut oil to coffee, even on "down days" (ultra low cal days on the IF judd plan)did not "break the fast" or cause a loss of SIRT1 benefits.
I have been wondering about this! I hope that my HWC in my coffee doesn't turn of the SRT1 gene. Hmmmm.... I normally eat once a day, but do have a steady stream of coffee w HWC during the day.
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Old 08-18-2013, 04:14 PM   #24
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Jayne, I guess it depends on what one is currently experiencing. I'm getting great results now simply eating real food 3 times per day. There may come a time when I need to look for something additional but I don't need it now. I'm of the "If it ain't broke don't fix it" mindset.
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Old 08-18-2013, 05:24 PM   #25
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I agree that seems like a plan for the desparate.
I would need to be really desparate before sipping oil and clipping my nose.
Flavorless calories?
Ummmmmmmm.....nah.
I wouldn't say desperate. Look at me...it has taken me since 2005 to lose 120 pounds. Do you see what that average is per year? That is a HECK of a lot of trying over many years.

If I had known then what I have slowly learned now. Good grief. I have suffered. This is EASIER!!!!!
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Old 08-18-2013, 05:26 PM   #26
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I am not sure how some of these things work.

I once added 6T virgin coconut oil and 6 big capsules of CLA per day on top of the food I was supposed to eat on a specific fat loss plan. It added a lot of calories (I seem to recall over 1000 extra calories) but the fat just melted away. I followed the food plan 100% every single day. It did not make sense to me but I had to admit it worked great.
Wow, that is interesting.

Did you get that boost of energy everyone talks about?

I have a book somewhere around the house by Ray Peat where he says farmers will not feed coconut oil to their animals even though it is cheap because it makes them lean and restless. That has always stuck in my mind.
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Old 08-18-2013, 05:28 PM   #27
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I do not understand this:

This could very well be taking the place of snacking that is causing someone to release insulin all day long, preventing weight loss.

I lost my final 100 lbs following JUDDD, and my DDs were about 370 calories. Unlike many people, I didn't eat once a day, but I felt best eating 50 to 70 cal 'snacks' throughout the day--all high protein. I ate similarly on my higher-calorie UDs with snacks of about 100-150 cal.

I lost weight well, so I don't understand why the release of insulin (which occurs with any food we eat) inhibits weight loss.

My understanding is that many of us (myself included) can overproduce insulin in response to eating carbs. It's that insulin 'spike' that rapidly lowers blood sugar and causes hunger soon after eating--leading to overeating. It's the overeating that inhibits weight loss and/or causes us to gain weight.

I certainly had no problems losing (and maintaining my loss) snacking throughout the day rather than eating substantial meals. In fact, for someone as sensitive to carbs as I am, snacks may work better for weight loss because so little insulin is released each time I eat.
Yep, I agree - I can lose weight eating all day long as long as it is very low in calories. I've done that with the protein sparing modified fasts and the potato hack.

No one I know in real life can tolerate this kind of low calorie dieting. I don't think most people have the mind set to do it, but it does seem common when looking around here on the board.

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Old 08-18-2013, 05:38 PM   #28
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Thanks Dawnyama and Key Tones! I spent half the night reading that thread.



I am intrigued by the idea of moving the set point. I also think this resonates with some of my own impulses -- for example, I have for a long time felt like a lot of my problem is enjoying foods too much. My husband is perfectly happy eating boring tasteless foods for most of his meals and he has not had the same weight issues I have (he was very heavy for a while, after he stopped exercising or paying attn to his weight during law school, but in the last six years or so he's slowly but fairly easily and without any hitting his head against the wall, lost about 70 pounds). I have always been obsessed with yummy foods. And I have never felt like eating foods that I don't LOVE was even remotely appealing. Over the last couple of years I have focused on trying to fuel my body rather than use food as entertainment. It's a little different than the tasteless calorie idea, but I do think it may come from the same impulse. Plus, I do love the idea of the set point moving down.



See, I don't get this at all. I think that drinking some oil a couple of times a day, if that was all it took (ie, I'm not also doing all of the other crazy things I do, like IF and nearly zero carb - none of which the SLD claims to need me to do), would be so easy, way easier than anything else I've done. I am planning on adding it to my plan though. I love IF'ing and I do think that VLC is great for my weightloss and blood sugar. But jeez, drinking a little oil just doesn't sound like any skin off my back.



I have been wondering about this! I hope that my HWC in my coffee doesn't turn of the SRT1 gene. Hmmmm.... I normally eat once a day, but do have a steady stream of coffee w HWC during the day.

Yes, yes...it is such a small investment as well. My friends in real life like the idea that what I have hit on is an easy trick. My coworkers have watched me for years feeling sorry for me. Now they are curious because I am not so strict about not eating out with them. Some of them make unsupportive comments, thinking I am going to gain the weight back (but for me, the paleo diet means never gaining weight back as long as I stick to it), and now they are really curious since this last 15 pounds I lost has been really noticeable and I am not doing anything weird like eating only potatoes or stocking the refrigerator with eggs.

One of my coworkers is going to get the MCT oil when she gets back from vacation. She probably will not change her "healthy diet" so I wonder how well it will work.

Anyway, I am reading Jack Kruse's book. I do think it was a good idea for me to give up the coffee. I am not sure that I will follow through with the blood testing, but if I get stuck, I might.

Regarding the cream - I gave it up once. I had to use a lot of sweetener, though. Now, I think artificial sweetener is a real problem for me. So, I just gave it up completely.

Last edited by Key Tones; 08-18-2013 at 05:45 PM..
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Old 08-18-2013, 05:40 PM   #29
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Wow, that is interesting.

Did you get that boost of energy everyone talks about?

I have a book somewhere around the house by Ray Peat where he says farmers will not feed coconut oil to their animals even though it is cheap because it makes them lean and restless. That has always stuck in my mind.
No boost of energy, not once.

I did find that my temperature would go up a bit (My temperature runs pretty low so it was a good thing) right after consuming coconut oil. It would not stay up for long.
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Old 08-18-2013, 06:51 PM   #30
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Jayne, I guess it depends on what one is currently experiencing. I'm getting great results now simply eating real food 3 times per day. There may come a time when I need to look for something additional but I don't need it now. I'm of the "If it ain't broke don't fix it" mindset.
I have found things that work for me, but they seem not to take care of the whole problem. Like, ketosis is great for energy and it does suppress my appetite somewhat, but after a few months the appetite suppression seems to wear off a bit or not be enough for me. IF'ing is great bc it gets me out of the habit of wanting to eat all the time and it's so nice not to have to think about food a whole lot. But after a few months of that I start having intrusive thoughts about food. Gymnema is awesome for some uses -- I am so happy that I have it on hand for parties and other situations that I would find tempting. And I do think that it also does some appetite suppression and it helps with my blood sugar. But it's hard to get myself to use it all the time.

So, I am not where you are in the journey. I haven't figured out what it is I need to feel comfortably free of my addiction. If I had, I doubt I'd be trying new things either. I do hope that I'm at least progressing...

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Originally Posted by Key Tones View Post
Anyway, I am reading Jack Kruse's book. I do think it was a good idea for me to give up the coffee. I am not sure that I will follow through with the blood testing, but if I get stuck, I might.

Regarding the cream - I gave it up once. I had to use a lot of sweetener, though. Now, I think artificial sweetener is a real problem for me. So, I just gave it up completely.
I may need to stop coffee. Gah! Maybe feeding my addiction to it isn't helping me any. Not ready to do that now, though.

I don't know anything about Kruse. I'll have to look him up. I have quite a reading list ahead of me. I'm almost done with SLD now and then plan on reading The Perfect Health Diet.
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