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Old 08-23-2013, 12:20 PM   #91
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Follow up comments from way back?

I just read the Morex threads on Seth Robert's blog. Good grief, he used canola oil (what he could find in Mexico as flavorless and inexpensive) and dropped over 70 pounds this year. His girlfriend joined in and did well. His pictures, well, he looks...thin! Seriously, thin as if never overweight.

Interesting graph of someone's journey through weight loss over many years. I'll upload it if I can. Low carb worked well for this person but he started to gain weight. My favorite part is gaining upon going vegan. Walking worked but he couldn't sustain it (I understand he was walking 1.5 to 2 hours per day). Shangri-La seems to be working and holding his weight down for now. Just one experience.

Regarding what works/when - I have had to switch gears many times. I had a lot to lose, and still do. I can only say that I think what works when depends on one's hormonal status. It has never been easy. I have had the experience of things working and having to regroup when it stopped working or caused gains. My insulin resistance is greatly improved and I believe I am becoming leptin sensitive (finally).



Here is the text that goes with the graph:

Ten Years of Weights, Including Two Years on the Shangri-La Diet


Here’s a new graph I’ve made of Alex Chernavsky’s data. In 2001, he started weighing himself and recording his weight with the hope that it would help him lose weight. His data shows several interesting things:

1. Long walks really helped. The walks lasted 1.5-2 hours. They weren’t sustainable but the weight loss they caused lasted a remarkably long time — years, apparently, in the sense that it took years to regain the lost weight.

2. A low-carb diet worked well, but only at first. Alex lost a lot of weight initially but then started to regain it. Just before he became vegetarian, he was regaining weight quickly. I don’t know if this is typical. The popularity of low-carb diets has not been matched by availability of data about long-term effects, where by “long-term” I mean four years. Even though low-carb diets are 150 years old (Banting wrote in 1863).

3. The Shangri-La Diet is working better than other alternatives. There’s a difference between (a) showing that a diet causes weight loss and (b) showing that it works better than other ways of losing weight. In this comparison, it appears more sustainable than long walks and the weight loss it causes appears more sustainable than the weight loss from a low-carb diet.

Alex originally used Shangri-La Diet principles by ingesting 4 tablespoons of flaxseed oil washed down with water. (Details here.) He lost weight but then started to slowly regain it. I suggested he increase his intake of flavorless calories so he started to eat 1 tablespoon of coconut oil (about 100 calories) each day with his nose clipped. He stopped slowly gaining weight.

I asked Alex why he has persisted weighing himself so long. He replied:


I had at best a vague idea of what I wanted to do with the data. When I was in graduate school [in neuroscience], I enjoyed plotting the results of my experiments, so I thought it would be fun to have a dataset that consisted of my own weight measures. After I started the SLD, I had a more-concrete reason why I needed to collect the data. I explicitly set out to test the diet.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:41 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Olive View Post
I find these "extract pleasure from eating" diets so interesting (and I have no doubt that they are effective in the short term).

I hope it doesn't come to this for me, though. Hope no one's offended by that.
You don't get it. You can eat off plan, whatever it is, and it doesn't phase you.

Some do this with no food/diet plan at all other than the oil shots in flavorless windows.

You break free of what holds you back.

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Old 08-23-2013, 04:19 PM   #93
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I had a terrifying experience 2 nights ago.
I had 1.5 T unsalted butter before bed.
At 5:35 am, I sat straight up from a dead sleep, with one huge gasp/wheeze. I couldnt breathe, and my throat was on fire.
I stumbled to the bathroom and chewed Benedryl.
In hindsight I don't think I needed it.
At the time, I thought I was dying.
it hasn't ever happened, before or since.

I am unequivocally NOT trying to deter anyone from this valuable protocol.
I suggest if you are doing it at bedtime, to keep a large drink at your bedside, in case this happens to you.

Be well, everyone.
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Old 08-23-2013, 06:09 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olive View Post
I find these "extract pleasure from eating" diets so interesting (and I have no doubt that they are effective in the short term).

I hope it doesn't come to this for me, though. Hope no one's offended by that.
The basic shangri-la diet is eating *anything you want* but also having one or two two-hour flavorless windows in which you have some tasteless oil. That seems so much easier and more pleasing to me that I cannot imagine why someone would think it was more difficult/unpleasant than low carb.

I think the people who are here doing shangri-la may also be using low carb as a tool with it. I know I am. But you don't have to.

I'm not sure I understand the fear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natalia View Post
I had a terrifying experience 2 nights ago.
I had 1.5 T unsalted butter before bed.
At 5:35 am, I sat straight up from a dead sleep, with one huge gasp/wheeze. I couldnt breathe, and my throat was on fire.
I stumbled to the bathroom and chewed Benedryl.
In hindsight I don't think I needed it.
At the time, I thought I was dying.
it hasn't ever happened, before or since.

I am unequivocally NOT trying to deter anyone from this valuable protocol.
I suggest if you are doing it at bedtime, to keep a large drink at your bedside, in case this happens to you.

Be well, everyone.
My mother has something very much like this happen to her sometimes and she says its terrifying. I think she thinks hers is related to heartburn, so she doesn't eat anything after six pm bc that makes her heartburn better. I hope it was the butter that caused it to happen to you, since that's an easy fix and it sounds like a pretty unpleasant thing.
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Old 08-23-2013, 08:01 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natalia View Post
I had a terrifying experience 2 nights ago.
I had 1.5 T unsalted butter before bed.
At 5:35 am, I sat straight up from a dead sleep, with one huge gasp/wheeze. I couldnt breathe, and my throat was on fire.
I stumbled to the bathroom and chewed Benedryl.
In hindsight I don't think I needed it.
At the time, I thought I was dying.
it hasn't ever happened, before or since.

I am unequivocally NOT trying to deter anyone from this valuable protocol.
I suggest if you are doing it at bedtime, to keep a large drink at your bedside, in case this happens to you.

Be well, everyone.
Oh wow, that sounds awful. It sounds like acid reflux and an asthma attack at the same time. Yikes

The only warning I have seen about the diet is that it can take time to build up digestive enzymes to handle it, but I don't remember hearing about this. Sorry to hear!
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:26 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natalia View Post
I had a terrifying experience 2 nights ago.
I had 1.5 T unsalted butter before bed.
At 5:35 am, I sat straight up from a dead sleep, with one huge gasp/wheeze. I couldnt breathe, and my throat was on fire.
I stumbled to the bathroom and chewed Benedryl.
In hindsight I don't think I needed it.
At the time, I thought I was dying.
it hasn't ever happened, before or since.

I am unequivocally NOT trying to deter anyone from this valuable protocol.
I suggest if you are doing it at bedtime, to keep a large drink at your bedside, in case this happens to you.

Be well, everyone.
Well, in my experience, this was a classic GERD (gastroesophageal reflux disease) episode. I had the same thing happen to me a couple of times in the last year. One episode was as bad as you describe. The reflux had come up into my throat and nose blocking my airway. I sat straight up gasping for air and hit the floor running to the bathroom. I finally could breathe, but my throat and nose were on fire. That was because of all of the acid that was in the reflux. I would be surprised if just the butter caused that, but if you took it and immediately went to bed, it is possible.

By the way, I am going to purchase MCT oil tomorrow. I have been trying the Shangri-la Diet this week using the extra light olive oil, as Seth Roberts recommends. I have had a lot of appetite suppression but have not lost any weight. And I am one of those weird people who can take 2 tablespoons of straight oil and then just drink some water.

Thanks for the great thread!
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Old 08-24-2013, 05:26 AM   #97
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I agree with Laura, Natalia!

GERD is very scary and has the symptoms you describe. Not sure if it is butter related though. I am in love with MCT, but have been taking one tbs of Red Palm once per day EOD for the vit E.

One thing that I have noticed is much sharper mental alertness with the MCT oil. I have had lots of memory issues as I age and I am thrilled to have this added benefit.
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:17 AM   #98
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Natalia- sorry to hear about the horrible reaction you had. Maybe you are getting allergic to butter.
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:31 AM   #99
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Here is the New York Times - Freakanomics article about Shangri-La. This came out two years before the book.


1 of 2

Freakonomics

Does the Truth Lie Within?


By STEPHEN J. DUBNER and STEVEN D. LEVITT

Published: September 11, 2005


The Accidental Diet

Seth Roberts is a 52-year-old psychology professor at the University of California at Berkeley. If you knew Roberts 25 years ago, you might remember him as a man with problems. He had acne, and most days he woke up too early, which left him exhausted. He wasn't depressed, but he wasn't always in the best of moods. Most troubling to Roberts, he was overweight: at 5-foot-11, he weighed 200 pounds.




Illustration by Head Case Design



Readers

Forum: Fitness and Nutrition


When you encounter Seth Roberts today, he is a clear-skinned, well-rested, entirely affable man who weighs about 160 pounds and looks 10 years younger than his age. How did this happen?

It began when Roberts was a graduate student. First he had the clever idea of turning his personal problems into research subjects. Then he decided that he would use his own body as a laboratory. Thus did Roberts embark on one of the longest bouts of scientific self-experimentation known to man - not only poking, prodding and measuring himself more than might be wise but also rigorously recording every data point along the way.

Self-experimentation, though hardly a new idea in the sciences, remains rare. Many modern scientists dismiss it as being not nearly scientific enough: there is no obvious control group, and you can hardly run a double-blind experiment when the researcher and subject are the same person. But might the not-quite-scientific nature of self-experimentation also be a good thing? A great many laboratory-based scientific experiments, especially those in the medical field, are later revealed to have been marred by poor methodology or blatant self-interest. In the case of Roberts, his self-interest is extreme, but at least it is obvious. His methodology is so simple - trying a million solutions until he finds one that works - that it creates the utmost transparency.



In some ways, self-experimentation has more in common with economics than with the hard sciences. Without the ability to run randomized experiments, economists are often left to exploit whatever data they can get hold of. Let's say you're an economist trying to measure the effect of imprisonment on crime rates. What you would ideally like to do is have a few randomly chosen states suddenly release 10,000 prisoners, while another few random states lock up an extra 10,000 people. In the absence of such a perfect experiment, you are forced to rely on creative proxies - like lawsuits that charge various states with prison overcrowding, which down the road lead to essentially random releases of large numbers of prisoners. (And yes, crime in those states does rise sharply after the prisoners are released.)

What could be a more opportunistic means of generating data than exploiting your own body? Roberts started small, with his acne, then moved on to his early waking. It took him more than 10 years of experimenting, but he found that his morning insomnia could be cured if, on the previous day, he got lots of morning light, skipped breakfast and spent at least eight hours standing.

Stranger yet was the fix he discovered for lifting his mood: at least one hour each morning of TV viewing, specifically life-size talking heads - but never such TV at night. Once he stumbled upon this solution, Roberts, like many scientists, looked back to the Stone Age for explication. Anthropological research suggests that early humans had lots of face-to-face contact every morning but precious little after dark, a pattern that Roberts's TV viewing now mimicked.


It was also the Stone Age that informed his system of weight control. Over the years, he had tried a sushi diet, a tubular-pasta diet, a five-liters-of-water-a-day diet and various others. They all proved ineffective or too hard or too boring to sustain. He had by now come to embrace the theory that our bodies are regulated by a "set point," a sort of Stone Age thermostat that sets an optimal weight for each person. This thermostat, however, works the opposite of the one in your home. When your home gets cold, the thermostat turns on the furnace. But according to Roberts's interpretation of the set-point theory, when food is scarcer, you become less hungry; and you get hungrier when there's a lot of food around.



Readers

Forum: Fitness and Nutrition


This may sound backward, like telling your home's furnace to run only in the summer. But there is a key difference between home heat and calories: while there is no good way to store the warm air in your home for the next winter, there is a way to store today's calories for future use. It's called fat. In this regard, fat is like money: you can earn it today, put it in the bank and withdraw it later when needed.

During an era of scarcity - an era when the next meal depended on a successful hunt, not a successful phone call to Hunan Garden - this set-point system was vital. It allowed you to spend down your fat savings when food was scarce and make deposits when food was plentiful. Roberts was convinced that this system was accompanied by a powerful signaling mechanism: whenever you ate a food that was flavorful (which correlated with a time of abundance) and familiar (which indicated that you had eaten this food before and benefited from it), your body demanded that you bank as many of those calories as possible.

Roberts understood that these signals were learned associations - as dependable as Pavlov's bell - that once upon a time served humankind well. Today, however, at least in places with constant opportunities to eat, these signals can lead to a big, fat problem: rampant overeating.

So Roberts tried to game this Stone Age system. What if he could keep his thermostat low by sending fewer flavor signals? One obvious solution was a bland diet, but that didn't interest Roberts. (He is, in fact, a serious foodie.) After a great deal of experimenting, he discovered two agents capable of tricking the set-point system. A few tablespoons of unflavored oil (he used canola or extra light olive oil), swallowed a few times a day between mealtimes, gave his body some calories but didn't trip the signal to stock up on more. Several ounces of sugar water (he used granulated fructose, which has a lower glycemic index than table sugar) produced the same effect. (Sweetness does not seem to act as a "flavor" in the body's caloric-signaling system.)

The results were astounding. Roberts lost 40 pounds and never gained it back. He could eat pretty much whenever and whatever he wanted, but he was far less hungry than he had ever been. Friends and colleagues tried his diet, usually with similar results. His regimen seems to satisfy a set of requirements that many commercial diets do not: it was easy, built on a scientific theory and, most important, it did not leave Roberts hungry.



In the academic community, Roberts's self-experimentation has found critics but also serious admirers. Among the latter are the esteemed psychologist Robert Rosenthal, who has praised Roberts for "approaching data in an exploratory spirit more than, or at least in addition to, a confirmatory spirit" and for seeing data analysis "as the opportunity to confront a surprise." Rosenthal went so far as to envision "a time in the future when 'self-experimenter' became a new part-time (or full-time) profession."

But will Seth Roberts's strange weight-control solution - he calls it the Shangri-La Diet - really work for the millions of people who need it? We may soon find out. With the Atkins diet company filing for bankruptcy, America is eager for its next diet craze. And a few spoonfuls of sugar may be just the kind of sacrifice that Americans can handle.

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2

Stephen J. Dubner and Steven D. Levitt are the authors of "Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything."
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:11 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Key Tones View Post
You don't get it. You can eat off plan, whatever it is, and it doesn't phase you.

Some do this with no food/diet plan at all other than the oil shots in flavorless windows.

You break free of what holds you back.
You're right -- I shouldn't have commented without doing my research first. I only had a half-formed idea. I really do think it's incredibly interesting.
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Old 08-24-2013, 10:42 AM   #101
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You don't get it. You can eat off plan, whatever it is, and it doesn't phase you.

Some do this with no food/diet plan at all other than the oil shots in flavorless windows.

You break free of what holds you back.
I understand the attraction of a plan that allows one to eat whatever they want & lose weight. At one time this would have been my dream plan.

I realize that the option to "eat whatever you want" does include healthy foods. But the very fact that many people choose to eat mostly junk on this plan rather than make healthy changes is going to bring lots of criticism. Nothing can make unhealthy foods magically healthy for our bodies.

There is also a world of difference between someone using the oil as a weight loss tool to gain control & eat a healthy amount of food and someone using it to completely eliminate desire to eat & hardly eating anything at all. I've read examples of both. One makes me happy for the person finding a way to healthy weight loss & the other makes me cringe at the realization that this is a person on yet another fad diet heading for trouble.
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Old 08-24-2013, 11:12 AM   #102
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I agree on that healthy eating is critical. I eat a paleo diet and truly believe flour, sugar, and oil cause western diseases - cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc., not seen in modern day hunter gatherers. It really freaks me out to find things like soybean oil and margarine (ack!) in my boyfriend's house (I found a way to make a trade so I could dump it).

I can't say that a paleo diet bought me any more weight loss than regular low carb. It seems like it should have, but it didn't. I had already lost down to the mid 230s when I got serious about it and gave up the frankenfood (my precious Atkins bars).

This oil is a great tool. I was just pointing out that people can lose with it even if they don't eat well, but more importantly it is a tool in breaking food or sweetener and even coffee addiction .

I don't see the point in people criticizing it.
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Old 08-24-2013, 11:18 AM   #103
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I chose to eat healthy food, as I always had. From my reading many people who used to eat junk food before SLD, actually started making better choices. They stopped craving junk food naturally on SLD. I have been doing lots of reading on SLD and have yet to come across someone saying that they eat junk food on SLD. Yes, maybe they don't necessarily eat low carb. LC is not the only "non-junk" diet out there. People's tastes change on SLD. What they used to crave before they don't after starting SLD.
Personally, I am craving lots of veggies now so I include them daily with good amount of protein. I am eating much less calories now than I ever had before, but I am not starving myself. I eat anywhere from 900-1400 cal day. Some days I am more hungry than others but I am free from my carb cravings and binges.
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Old 08-24-2013, 02:26 PM   #104
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Wow, this thread is getting big!

I'm really pleased to report that I am down another pound. Weight is really, really hard for me to lose. Considering that I usually can't get more off than 15 or 20 pounds in a year, and huge months-long stalls (285 was horrible, 275 wasn't bad but 265 was like concrete, 255 - awful, 245 not too bad, 235 more concrete, 225 - ugh!!!).

I went out to dinner last night and had Vietnamese food. Today is a party. Every week has been like this. I can do things socially that I used to dread. I don't have to freak out about breaking a draconian protein-sparing modified fast or a potato hack. Or white knuckling it to stay on track. I can just go and not worry.

Every pound is like a miracle. I am still so amazed at this!
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Old 08-24-2013, 02:28 PM   #105
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I chose to eat healthy food, as I always had. From my reading many people who used to eat junk food before SLD, actually started making better choices. They stopped craving junk food naturally on SLD. I have been doing lots of reading on SLD and have yet to come across someone saying that they eat junk food on SLD. Yes, maybe they don't necessarily eat low carb. LC is not the only "non-junk" diet out there. People's tastes change on SLD. What they used to crave before they don't after starting SLD.
Personally, I am craving lots of veggies now so I include them daily with good amount of protein. I am eating much less calories now than I ever had before, but I am not starving myself. I eat anywhere from 900-1400 cal day. Some days I am more hungry than others but I am free from my carb cravings and binges.
Thanks Marika! You are always explaining things better than I can.
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Old 08-24-2013, 03:20 PM   #106
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Marika, I completely understand the definition of junk food & that LC is not the only way. As I said, this plan can be done in a healthy way or in a very unhealthy way.
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:00 PM   #107
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Marika, I completely understand the definition of junk food & that LC is not the only way. As I said, this plan can be done in a healthy way or in a very unhealthy way.
So? No one here would be doing that. it would be a supplemental tool to use with our LC WOE.

The people who do SLD in an unhealthy way are the same people who already eat in an unhealthy way. So, they may find it doesn't work for them-- and are no further behind because they didn't change their beer and cheetos diet.
Or, they could find it works for them, suppressing appetite, even while eating total garbage. and they would then be farther ahead bc they would more likely to maintain or lose weight.

LC isnt the healthiest either if all you eat is hotdogs, slurry sandwich meat, and atkins bars...now WW if you ate all your points in Coke and bagels.
You can make any WOE unhealthy if you try hard enough
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Old 09-05-2013, 07:45 PM   #108
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Well I came across this thread a few days ago and got the SLD book for my Kindle and found it was a quick read. The arguments and references provided are compelling enough for me to give it a try. So today was day 1. As I am working on the Atkins plan presently I've just added the SLD to my current WOE. It will be interesting to see if the effects are noticeable and if they are additive or synergistic. Only time will tell!
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:50 PM   #109
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Hi Mike,

I hope you find success with it. This is a thread that started in the main lobby with a question. I have a thread linked in my auto signature. I think a bland paleo diet plus the Shangri la diet is the most effective combination ever. Check it out if you are interested. If you google Stephan Guyenet Chris Kresser podcasts (they did two together) they explain why this works from another perspective yet.

Good luck!
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Old 09-06-2013, 06:30 AM   #110
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This has been a good read! I just took a TBS of coconut oil, nose pinched followed by a glass of water (nose still pinched). Am doing the 2 hour window and will see what happens. If it does nothing else but get rid of my binging issues it's a winner for me!

Most things work well for me in the beginning and then just tend to peter out. Coconut oil is great for us anyway so I'm thinking even if it doesn't do much, it can't hurt either!
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Old 09-06-2013, 07:14 AM   #111
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Linda, I hope this works great for you as it works for me
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Old 09-06-2013, 07:33 AM   #112
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Hi Linda,

I hope you have good luck with this!

Seth Roberts talks about new foods working for a while. He says they stop working when we make the calorie associations. I wonder if this is the effect that happens to me as well. I suspect so.

Good luck!!!
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:58 AM   #113
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Welcome Mike and good luck!
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Old 09-09-2013, 08:13 AM   #114
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I saw a vidio that talked about why the shangri-la diet works. He doesn't refer to the
shangri-la diet by name but to what he calls a deconditioning diet. It's a little diferent
but both of them do the same. This is talked about in video 5 at about the 4 min. mark.


Intermittent fasting for health and longevity*/* Getting Stronger
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Old 09-20-2013, 04:13 AM   #115
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From what I read,doing SLD is not the same as drinking BPC.
It is important not to associate the oil with any flavors ,so coffee won't work.Unless you clip your nose.
I was about to do SLD with what info I got from the internet,but then I spend 4$$ on a used book.Glad I did bcoz the internet is full of wrong twisted info.
How many people have you seen that claim LC did not work for them,but they were doing it word of mouth rather than followinga plan after completely reading it?
Anyway as weird as the diet sounds,I am still planning to try it,bcoz I want to know if it will help with my weekend binge parties.
Will taking omega 3 capsules in amounts specified do the same trick?For now I will start with ELOO.
Keytones,it is interesting to hear that SLD increases leptin sensitivity,can you point me to an article where it explains that?
I would rather do SLD which is simple and easy than do Jack Krusse's diet,sound a bit undoable for me.
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Old 09-20-2013, 04:19 AM   #116
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lowcarbella- you would have to take lots of omega 3 tablets to get enough calories.
I take 2 tbls of ghee/day (ghee is first melted in 1/2 very warm water and follow with some plain water). I then rinse my mouth very well. I use swimmer's nose clip ($3) to block the flavor or you can just close your nose.
Try with ELOO and see how it goes. Good luck!!!
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Old 09-20-2013, 02:49 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowcarbella View Post
From what I read,doing SLD is not the same as drinking BPC.
It is important not to associate the oil with any flavors ,so coffee won't work.Unless you clip your nose.
I was about to do SLD with what info I got from the internet,but then I spend 4$$ on a used book.Glad I did bcoz the internet is full of wrong twisted info.
How many people have you seen that claim LC did not work for them,but they were doing it word of mouth rather than followinga plan after completely reading it?
Anyway as weird as the diet sounds,I am still planning to try it,bcoz I want to know if it will help with my weekend binge parties.
Will taking omega 3 capsules in amounts specified do the same trick?For now I will start with ELOO.
Keytones,it is interesting to hear that SLD increases leptin sensitivity,can you point me to an article where it explains that?
I would rather do SLD which is simple and easy than do Jack Krusse's diet,sound a bit undoable for me.
Seth actually said it himself in a comment somewhere.

The information about leptin is on Stephan Guyenet's blog. He believes that the bland paleo food does not interere with leptin signaling like processed food, and that Seth Robert's Shangri-La Diet works on the same mechanism (flavorless is an extreme version of going bland).

Since I can't post the link, google

Food Reward: a Dominant Factor in Obesity, Part VII Stephan Guyenet
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Old 02-06-2014, 04:51 PM   #118
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bump!
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Old 02-06-2014, 08:43 PM   #119
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Hi Dawn,

Thanks for the bump!

I'm hanging out in the thread below and the Nutritional Ketosis area. My doctor recommended I look into NK, so I have just started.

I am applying the MCT oil in the morning so I can make it to lunch with no food and keep a long, flavorless window going.
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