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Old 06-05-2013, 06:24 PM   #61
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marking my spot. need to go back and catch up. good wishes to all.
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:09 PM   #62
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Wow, I think maybe I went overboard today on eating. Have rice chek for breakfast w/ banana and half and half. Then chicken and green beans and a sweet potato. And finished up eating w/cold cuts and cheese for supper. And my dark chocolate. 1459 cal and 90 g f, 100 g carbs and 82 g protein. Crazy....
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:11 PM   #63
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Blonde and SlowSure - I sent the uncheese book to my heart patient friend, along with an order of nutritional yeast and some cashews (I read that some of the recipes take cashews as well).

Thank you again!
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:40 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalifPam View Post
Is there a thread for the Ketogenic PHD plan?
Not here, it's a tad niche at present.

P Jaminet has several blog posts about it at his site. It's a consequence of people asking them for help with a range of neurological conditions, some of them very tragic (I have the little boys with Neurodegeneration with Brain Iron Accumulation in mind). In the book, they advise:
Quote:
everyone with a neurological or brain disorder to try a ketogenic (“ketone generating”) diet. The book spells out how to tweak the Perfect Health Diet to make it ketogenic: basically, reduce carbs and add copious amounts of coconut oil.

Ketogenic diets can be surprisingly helpful with brain and nerve dysfunctions. The reason is that neurons have very limited metabolic options: they can burn only glucose or ketones. Glucose metabolism is complex and prone to failure; ketone metabolism is simple and robust. Especially in disease states, a neuron on glucose can be a totally different creature from a neuron on ketones. Neurological diseases that are disastrous on a glucose-rich diet can become mild when neurons are fed ketones.

It doesn’t work for every brain disease, in part because ketones don’t diffuse through the brain all that well. Ketones reach the subcortical and inner cortical layers of the brain easily, but don’t readily reach superficial layers. [1] However, in some diseases the places reached by ketones are the ones in trouble.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:31 AM   #65
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Jaminet has 3 posts on how to implement a ketogenic diet within the parameters of the Perfect Health Diet, and make it sustainable and safe.
Quote:
So we have three ways to make the diet ketogenic:

1) Make Wilder’s “ketogenic ratio” high by eating a lot of fat, very few carbs, and not too much protein.

2) Supplement with the ketogenic amino acids lysine and leucine.

3) Supplement with coconut oil or another source of short-chain fats.

If we do (2) or (3), then the diet can be ketogenic even if it has a fair number of carbs.

So now we have an arsenal of ways to generate ketones. We have to look at diseases and diet risks to figure out which way of making the diet ketogenic is optimal.
The posts are a bit tricky to read (you need to delve into the comments to find corrections) and you need to adjust the advice to suit your own circumstances.

As a small example, I'm supplementing with MCT oil rather than eating vast quantities of coconut oil (they recommend 12 or more tbsps a day) as I have other issues that wouldn't be helped by the huge weight gain that eating so much CO would entrain.

However, if people are interesting in eating ketogenic for weight loss, rather than to address a neurological dysfunction, then that summary might be sufficient if combined with guidance elsewhere (different post):
Quote:
we recommend a minimum protein+carb intake of 600 calories per day, which is about 30% of calories for a sedentary adult.
Between the comments and information in another post, it looks like they recommend 200kcals from safe starches (as described on pg1 in Sunday's summary) and 400kcals from recommended protein sources. The remainder of the calories are from fat and primarily those that promote ketone production, such as found in coconut oil or MCT oil.
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Old 06-06-2013, 05:43 AM   #66
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Good morning.

Well, since my PHD book is on loan, I decided to download the e-book so that I could read what the book says about ketogenic diet. I don't know how to copy and paste though from the cloud? Is that possible? So, I will attempt to give you the best version I can in bits and pieces. He does say as well as PHDers on FB that the ketogenic diet can be very therapeutic for some conditions, especially neurological conditions. And it seems that the BCAA and leucine play a role w/ MCT.

I read into the wee hours on his PHD site and I find it very interesting that many migraine sufferers usually suffer w/ circadian disruption which can lead to hypothyroidism and/or Raynaud's. My daughter spent 3 years after graduating about 10 years ago, working the graveyard shift at the hospital. She began having terrible migraines and developed circadian disruption as well. Now, she has been on days regularly for 6 years, but has learned that she is hypo which I tend to think was related to earlier circadian disruption etc.

I have posted this question over at the FB group to several of long term PHDers who have followed keto PHD to find out the exact specifics of what they found as well. So, I will relay that promptly when I get answers back.

Slowsure, I believe that some form of Ketogenic is vital for you from what you have relayed to me. I also believe that PHD Keto would be the optimal plan, due to helping cure the circadian disruption by keeping safe starches which seem to circumvent the high cortisol caused by very low carb. And my sentiments to you for trying to decipher his comments over on the PHD site, because I was getting a headache simply from trying to piece it together myself!
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Last edited by sunday; 06-06-2013 at 05:47 AM..
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Old 06-06-2013, 05:51 AM   #67
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Oh, and btw, I take Lysine regularly when I feel my immune system is down and have had excellent results!
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:16 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Tones View Post
Blonde and SlowSure - I sent the uncheese book to my heart patient friend, along with an order of nutritional yeast and some cashews (I read that some of the recipes take cashews as well).

Thank you again!
Wonderful! What a good friend you are!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindy in Louisiana View Post
Wow, I think maybe I went overboard today on eating. Have rice chek for breakfast w/ banana and half and half. Then chicken and green beans and a sweet potato. And finished up eating w/cold cuts and cheese for supper. And my dark chocolate. 1459 cal and 90 g f, 100 g carbs and 82 g protein. Crazy....
Sounds pretty yummy to me. Under 1500 calories is still a good day.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:36 AM   #69
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Morning ladies, hope your day is going well. Rainy here again. I'm going to try to keep my carbs down a spot today. I'm just not comfortable with 100 g a day. (and I'm supposed to) I will have cereal again but w/ half a banana..
I'm going to try my fermented veggies again today. They should be done by now. My weight has stayed 228.8 for 4th day in a row. Can't complain.
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:40 AM   #70
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WOE: JUDDD Maintenance. Ketogenic PHD.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunday View Post
He does say as well as PHDers on FB that the ketogenic diet can be very therapeutic for some conditions, especially neurological conditions. And it seems that the BCAA and leucine play a role w/ MCT.

I read into the wee hours on his PHD site and I find it very interesting that many migraine sufferers usually suffer w/ circadian disruption which can lead to hypothyroidism and/or Raynaud's. My daughter spent 3 years after graduating about 10 years ago, working the graveyard shift at the hospital....has learned that she is hypo which I tend to think was related to earlier circadian disruption etc.
...
Slowsure, I believe that some form of Ketogenic is vital for you from what you have relayed to me. I also believe that PHD Keto would be the optimal plan, due to helping cure the circadian disruption by keeping safe starches which seem to circumvent the high cortisol caused by very low carb.
Thank you so much for all of your assistance, Sunday. I hope you are taking care of yourself amidst the weather chaos around you.

That sounds horrible for your daughter. I think it's an interesting connection between circadian disruption, migraines and endocrine disturbances. I can't think where I saw it but one comment that recently caught my eye was an author who put forward the idea that for some people, diabetes II may have its origins in a disrupted circadian rhythm. The author also mentioned hypothyroidism (perhaps it was P Jaminet, my mind's a blank at present).

I'm determined to try out a ketogenic version of the PHD to do something for migraine control. For a week or so now, I've been taking MCT oil in my morning coffee on both DD and UD to get used to it (I hadn't taken it previously and I don't usually take any creamer or dairy in my hot drinks).

From Monday, I will consume the majority of my DD calories from MCT oil and use potato starch and sardines/seafood to make up the remainder of the calories. I'm on JUDDD maintenance so I have a bit more leeway with my calories than I usually would. I can probably have have a coffee, a tea and a cocoa, spaced throughout the day, and each with a Tbsp of MCT oil. (I will probably need to nudge that up to 1.5-2 Tbsp over time but I will have to get there by babysteps as I'm not accustomed to quantities of either MCT or CO.)

On UDs, I will include the MCT-supplemented drinks and be able to eat salmon, liver, oysters, a few more vegetables and a little rice (the rice will supplement the potato starch).
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:36 AM   #71
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Excellent plan SlowSure! I have a lot of info for you from PHDers who came back to my question. I will try and post it as soon as possible. I am late for a meeting, but you are def on right track.

Yay! Cici popped in! I have heard back from Bev, but waiting to see if she is going to come by and drop a note. *hint...hint.

BRB!
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:37 PM   #72
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Very interesting thread going about keto version of PHD. Anyway, I am hoping that Paul will weigh in, but it seems like something has been taking up his time,... possibly "work"
Kevin L says~

Quote:
The PHD version of keto suggests getting AT LEAST 50g of glucose per day via safe starches. Also, getting a minimum of 600 calories of carbs + protein combines. And then it suggests accentuating ketone production via consumption of lots of CO/MCT and ketogenic amino acids, paticularly lysine and leucine.

BCAA are 3 specific amino acids. Leucine is one of them. Paul recommends 5+g of BCAA per day on keto diets
It sounds like to me that 600 cals combined gives you a little more leeway on meal planning, so I am interested to follow this myself. I hear that he is doing a trial right now as well.

Annette M~

Suggest using Mag Oil spray to the head for migraine. (I have actually read here on LCF that someone suggested this and had excellent results). I will try and do more research.

This is the BCAA that I have been taking every morning w/ workout and love it! http://www.netrition.com/mrm_bcaa_g1000.html
I even mix in a bit of Bob's Red Mill RS.

Last edited by sunday; 06-06-2013 at 01:42 PM..
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:44 PM   #73
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Alright! Paul has spoken!

Quote:
Try regular PHD, ruthlessly eliminate fructose foods, slightly restrict starch, add in MCT oil and resistant starch (raw potatoe flour) and a bit of BCAAs, and adjust the MCT oil so that urinary ketones are zero, but will be above zero if you add a bit more. You still need all nutrients so be sure to eat all the PHD supplemental foods: liver, shellfish, seafood, bone and joint stock soups, fermented vegetables, etc.
I will join SlowSure. I am going to jump in for a week and see how I feel.
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Old 06-07-2013, 04:13 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunday View Post
I will join SlowSure. I am going to jump in for a week and see how I feel.
Oh that will be good. I feel slightly odd, doing this, and couldn't even attempt to explain it to DH.

I settled for saying that I was changing my WOE to see if I could control or modify the migraines so my DDs were going to be different and there'd be a greater emphasis on other foodstuffs for UDs (he does JUDDD as well). Fortunately, he'll eat what he's given so he's fine with this. Even more fortunately, we always have a little liver sausage for Saturday and Sunday breakfast and eat fish x2 a week (at least 1 serving of which is oily) so he shouldn't have too great a shock.

I have some stock/broth in the fridge. I usually do packed lunches of vegetable soup for him, I may start making them with various BBs to pack those in otherwise it might be tricky. We already ferment vegetables and kefir so we have those on hand. We do 3 DD, 3 UD and 1 MD on JUDDD, we might have to change that to 4 UD or it will be difficult to add in the recommended supplemental foods.

Last edited by SlowSure; 06-07-2013 at 04:17 AM..
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:18 AM   #75
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SlowSure, I was already doing this Monday - Friday, eating freely on S/Sun, only difference is that I was eating more starch in the form of potatoes and a good dose of fruit, chocolate & wine. I was only having a tbsp of CO in my morning coffee. I am going to increase that some and see what difference I notice if any.

I don't JUDDD, as I fast in the window. It is now becoming an 18 hour window with my schedule change. I have fallen in love with sardines and oysters. I use to nix them. I make a good broth once a week and only have a cup of it per day, but it is great poured over a cup of rice or potato. I am curious if it will help me clean up my sweet cravings by ridding me of the extra carbs? I am going to have to clean out my fridge on Sunday of any extra fruit.

Also, your DH could eat more PHDish if he so desires. Men usually like more potatoes or rice, etc. Does he like eggs? I eat the 3 yolks daily.
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:56 AM   #76
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Paul's word--

On Vit C
Quote:
I just get the simplest, cheapest forms of C. Powders are cheapest. ... It is a mistake to think that an anti-Candidal diet should be low in carbs. It should be low in fructose but aim for 30% carbs and eat lots of vegetables which are anti-fungal. Extra virgin olive oil is the best antifungal oil.
Kevin--
Quote:
the ketogenic component is the MCT oil. MCT oil is, of course, all MCT oil. the coconut oil is approximately 2/3 MCT oil. so, it would take roughly 3 tbsp coconut oil to provide the same amount of ketogenic substance as you would get in 2 tbsp of pure MCT oil. ie.. you just need to use a bit more of it (about 50% more) to get the same effect
So, sounds like I need to do the MCT oil as opposed to CO?

New podcast on PHD - Australian Paleo Show Paul speaks about the Keto version of PHD as well as circadian rhythms.

TPS 17: Paul Jaminet

Last edited by sunday; 06-07-2013 at 07:09 AM..
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:43 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by sunday View Post
SlowSure, I was already doing this Monday - Friday, eating freely on S/Sun, only difference is that I was eating more starch in the form of potatoes and a good dose of fruit, chocolate & wine. I was only having a tbsp of CO in my morning coffee. I am going to increase that some and see what difference I notice if any.

I don't JUDDD, as I fast in the window. It is now becoming an 18 hour window with my schedule change. I have fallen in love with sardines and oysters. I use to nix them. I make a good broth once a week and only have a cup of it per day, but it is great poured over a cup of rice or potato. I am curious if it will help me clean up my sweet cravings by ridding me of the extra carbs? I am going to have to clean out my fridge on Sunday of any extra fruit.

Also, your DH could eat more PHDish if he so desires. Men usually like more potatoes or rice, etc. Does he like eggs? I eat the 3 yolks daily.
Morning all, Sunday, I noticed you mentioned oysters before. How do you prepare them. Do you use canned? I love them but canned would be more convenient. I'm up 2 lbs today. I think it is the rice chex and the whole banana. I need to lower them. Or totally get rid of the fruit.

My fermented veggies turned out great. I can see the addiction.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:59 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunday View Post
So, sounds like I need to do the MCT oil as opposed to CO?

New podcast on PHD - Australian Paleo Show Paul speaks about the Keto version of PHD as well as circadian rhythms.
I'm using MCT oil rather than CO as I knew that I couldn't take that many additional calories. However, I've only just managed to work my way up to 2Tbsp of MCT oil a day, so it might take longer for me to transition to this than I'd originally thought (MCT is known for its impact on the GI tract while you're adapting to it ).

I look forward to listening to PJ discuss the keto version of PHD along with circadian rhythms.

DH eats eggs most days for his breakfast: for the next few weeks, I'll make sure he eats mostly egg yolks and I'll freeze the excess whites or make meringues from them (and give them to my sweet-toothed, very slender, very elderly neighbours who adore them, alongside a pot of lemon or lime curd).
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:05 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindy in Louisiana View Post
Morning all, Sunday, I noticed you mentioned oysters before. How do you prepare them. Do you use canned? I love them but canned would be more convenient. I'm up 2 lbs today. I think it is the rice chex and the whole banana. I need to lower them. Or totally get rid of the fruit.

My fermented veggies turned out great. I can see the addiction.
Lindy, I have searched high and low and found that canned oysters are the only ones available here in the middle of the USA. However, I love Napolean and Crown Prince smoked oysters in water. I find them at Sprouts. I agree about the Rice Chex. Not good! I know it says Rice, but it has much more added to it than just plain rice. How about exchanging for a bowl of rice w/ a dollop of Kerrygold and a splash of raw honey or maple syrup, plus a few blueberries or strawberries? Just give it a try. Please let me know how that sounds to you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSure View Post
I'm using MCT oil rather than CO as I knew that I couldn't take that many additional calories. However, I've only just managed to work my way up to 2Tbsp of MCT oil a day, so it might take longer for me to transition to this than I'd originally thought (MCT is known for its impact on the GI tract while you're adapting to it ).

I look forward to listening to PJ discuss the keto version of PHD along with circadian rhythms.

DH eats eggs most days for his breakfast: for the next few weeks, I'll make sure he eats mostly egg yolks and I'll freeze the excess whites or make meringues from them (and give them to my sweet-toothed, very slender, very elderly neighbours who adore them, alongside a pot of lemon or lime curd).
You needn't worry about DH having just yolks. I am personally doing ONLY yolks to cut cals and leave space for my other proteins. Paul says that the whites are fine as long as you count the added protein in your numbers.

Well, gang, my DH has come down with pneumonia. He doesn't eat like me and in fact, I have often worried because like Nancy's DH, mine eats SAD. I have been hovering over him and trying to advise, but I can't seem to change someone who has been living the lifestyle for approx. 60 years.
The best thing that he eats is Activia and a veggie platter that he insists on eating w/ the ranch dip that they provide (highly processed and full of nutrient-lacking glob of fat, sugar and salt -- the kind of c.r.a.p. that I try so desperately to rid myself of). So, I may be offline or absent a bit more often. I need to help him and in the same token, hope that he will at least drink my BB. Even if I need to add it incognito. Love my man, but he is hardheaded and set in his own ways.

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Old 06-08-2013, 02:33 AM   #80
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Sunday, I'm so sorry to read about your DH's pneumonia. Take care of both of you and I hope for a timely and complete recovery for him.
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Old 06-08-2013, 04:34 AM   #81
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Oh Sunday, so sorry about DH. Try to take care of yourself also. So worrying. Good idea about changing my Rice Chex to good stuff. Will try it..

We love you...
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Old 06-08-2013, 09:42 AM   #82
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Sunday I'm so sorry about DH. I had pneumonia twice in three years. He must rest, push the vitamin C, hot showers, and mucinex if the Doctor agrees. Poor man, I know you feel terrible, you're going to make him all better. I'll bet you could make a ranch dressing that would kick the commercial's butt! Hugs
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Old 06-08-2013, 09:50 AM   #83
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Sunday, I am sorry to hear about your husband. I just read that there are multiple causes of ammonia - do you know what type? How is he now?

I could never get my husband to change his diet either. My boyfriend, a scientist, poo-poos my ideas.

What is wrong about avoiding processed food!
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Old 06-08-2013, 11:14 AM   #84
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Thanks friends!

The doc says that we caught it in the nick of time. He would have been in trouble and needed hospitalization if we hadn't gone in to have x-rays. DH thought that he possibly may have contracted the bug when he was cleaning the storm cellar before the tornadoes arrived. He sprayed a bug/spider bomb and then he went down in the cellar to sweep the webs etc. He felt that he may have breathed in some type of fungus or bacteria. He has bacterial pneumonia. They told me that it is contagious. I am washing my hands constantly.

One more golden nugget from the PHD site. Gelatin is excellent for folks who have trouble with insomnia.

Quote:
I've read this, "Gelatin (glycine) has an inhibitory effect on neurotransmitters, helping to promote relaxation and deep sleep." and "Gelatin directly opposes stress hormones adrenaline, cortisol and serotonin (all of which inhibit optimal thyroid function/metabolism, increase tissue breakdown, inflammation and accelerate ageing)." The best choices would be Great Lakes Beef and Bernard Jensen's Beef. You also get gelatin in bone broth if the broth forms a jelly like consistency once cold. I make broth but I've been supplementing gelatin each day with Bernard Jensen's.
She linked an article from Ray Peat's blog and this portion~

Quote:
Gelatin, stress, longevity

============================

The main bulk of an animal's body consists of water, protein, fat and bones. Fat tissue and bone are metabolically more quiescent than the protein-water systems. During stress or starvation, or even hibernation, animals lose lean mass faster than fat.

The amino acids that constitute protein have many hormone-like functions in their free state. When our glucose (glycogen) stores have been depleted, we convert our own tissue into free amino acids, some of which are used to produce new glucose. The amino acids cysteine and tryptophan, released in large quantities during stress, have antimetabolic (thyroid-suppressing) and, eventually, toxic effects. Hypothyroidism itself increases the catabolic turnover of protein, even though general metabolism is slowed.

Other amino acids act as nerve-modifiers (“transmitters”), causing, for example, excitation or inhibition.

Some of these amino acids, such as glycine, have a very broad range of cell-protective actions.

Their physical properties, rather than their use for production of energy or other metabolic function, are responsible for their important cytoprotective actions.

Gelatin (the cooked form of collagen) makes up about 50% of the protein in an animal, but a much smaller percentage in the more active tissues, such as brain, muscle, and liver. 35% of the amino acids in gelatin are glycine, 11% alanine, and 21% proline and hydroxyproline.

In the industrialized societies, the consumption of gelatin has decreased, relative to the foods that contain an inappropriately high proportion of the antimetabolic amino acids, especially tryptophan and cysteine.

The degenerative and inflammatory diseases can often be corrected by the use of gelatin-rich foods.

Last edited by sunday; 06-08-2013 at 11:18 AM..
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Old 06-08-2013, 05:13 PM   #85
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Hi, all. Eating liver pate tonigt and thinking of you.

Sunday, hopinh DH gets well soon and you all get a much needed break .

Some of that gelatin/amino info seems so counter to what I would expect. but I have a bunch of BB in the fridge. Just have lost my taste for it with the warmer weather. Sounds like I need it though.
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Old 06-08-2013, 06:34 PM   #86
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Funny Cici...I had amazng liver and onions tonite for dinner and thought of all you guys! It was so delish...I soaked it in milk for a few hours, the dipped it in egg and then a seasoned gluten free flour mix and pan seared it...ooohhh I could eat it all over again
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Old 06-08-2013, 07:00 PM   #87
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Yeah, Mama, hard to believe, I was scouring the freezer for "something yummy" and came out with chicken livers! HA HA HA!
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Old 06-08-2013, 07:20 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by cici52 View Post
Yeah, Mama, hard to believe, I was scouring the freezer for "something yummy" and came out with chicken livers! HA HA HA!
Hey, Cici and Mama, I love livers. Had a real binge earlier in the week.
On the gelatine thing, I use the Great Lakes Beef and tried it for the first time the other day. For some reason I thought I was supposed to put it in very lukewarm broth. By the time I got to the bottom it was totally gelatinized. Talk about yuck. Will try again.

I dropped almost a lb of the 2 I added this week. It's coming. I'm not worried about losing weight much anymore. Now I'm more focused on the heathy aspects of PHD. I need to make more fermented veggies. The other's are almost gone. Much better than I thought. Ummmm.
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Old 06-08-2013, 08:40 PM   #89
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I am thrilled that some people love livers!
I am trying. Yes, really I am. And if Kristin is lurking, I understand that this is my odd and onliest hangup. Blah!

I decided to drop in and say that I feel kind of guilty and bad because I made it seem like my DH is the only one who enjoys processed c.r.a.p. I realize that I, myself, still enjoy some c.r.a.p. on occasion. BUT, because I love my newfound Perfect Health plan, my heart can't bear for him to be sick and eat c.r.a.p. I just want to put this out there. Because I am not guilt free. In fact, unless I go out and catch my own fish and net my own shrimp and oysters. They are processed. As well as the kombucha and coconut kefir, all processed.

I do think that it will always be a hard line to tow when speaking of "eating to health". I do understand now why Paul Jaminet and Shou Ching were so desperate to find the answers. As we age, it becomes more precious than gold to know how to take care of our health in our final years.

Last edited by sunday; 06-08-2013 at 08:42 PM..
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Old 06-08-2013, 09:01 PM   #90
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And when you think you have heard it all!

Okay, just consider for a minute. What if you decide to go for a jog and come home to unbearable back ache, only to find out that you are about to deliver a baby?!?!? You have no earthly idea that you are 9 months pregnant and to top it off, your hubbie had a vasectomy.

Yes, that is right!!! You are pregnant.

An aspiring half-marathon runner in Minnesota attributed her unbearable back pain to a two-hour training session. A day later, she was cradling a newborn.

Trish Staine, 33, says she had no idea she was pregnant before Monday's surprise birth. The Duluth mother of three said she hadn't gained any weight or felt fetal movement in the months before. And besides, her husband had a vasectomy.

"I said `no, no, that's impossible,' " Staine said Wednesday from her Duluth hospital room.

"I definitely thought I was done having kids," she joked. Staine and her husband, John, have a daughter, 7, and a son, 11. She's also stepmother to John's three boys, ages 17, 19 and 20.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...nt_n_3391515.h

oh my word!

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