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Old 01-19-2013, 09:45 AM   #211
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Cici~ No problem with potatoes causing leg or foot cramps for me, but that might change if I did a potato fast for several days.

I'm so excited to be able to have DD's again. JUDDD really was the best (had the most success) plan I ever followed, I felt the best, I lost weight and my asthma got so much better! I love the empty tummy feeling I get the morning after a DD. I'm probably repeating myself (sorry) but having potatoes on a DD exclusively never occurred to me...at all. If it had, I would be farther along than I am now.

So tell me, are green olives fermented? Because I eat them all the time!

Maybe you all could tell me about your bone broth recipes? It seriously sounds vile, but beef knuckle broth doesn't sound too hideous...please no offense meant, I would really like to know. ChristineCQ posted that she made BB and it made her want to.... Someone has to be making a good concoction of the stuff.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:45 AM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ouizoid View Post
I did! And they are just huge! But I get so much bang fer the buck reusing them several times. I cook each batch in my crockpot for at least 24-36 hours, cool and fat skim the broth and then freeze in silicone cupcake holders. I pop each "cupcake" out into a freezer bag full of cupcakes. When I make my taters, first I nuke a cupcake of BB, add taters and kimchee and flavourings and then nuke again. Deeeelicious!
I must do this! I haven't re-used any bones yet. Also, I haven't been skimming the fat. Do you think I am having too much? I enjoy it so much and it gives the taters that extra satisfying taste.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:49 AM   #213
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Eh--- up to you. I took to heart the notion that the less fat with taters the better, and I sometimes add a TBS of salsa con queso, which has a little fat.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:54 AM   #214
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Oiuz and Sunday~ I also got the notion (from reading) that potatoes sans any fat are better. It has to do with your body using/storing fat and that it's always a good idea to eat even good carbs without any added fats. McDougall's The Starch Solution is based on fat free.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:00 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Blonde with a Rose View Post
Oiuz and Sunday~ I also got the notion (from reading) that potatoes sans any fat are better. It has to do with your body using/storing fat and that it's always a good idea to eat even good carbs without any added fats. McDougall's The Starch Solution is based on fat free.
I haven't read that book, but I guess I better take heed. I normally only worry about fat on DD.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:05 AM   #216
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No Sunday, you don't have to worry about it on your up days! The McDougall book is NON-FAT VEGAN. He tries to explain why one can eat all these starches daily as main meals and actually lose weight...he says it's because there is NO added fat. You already eat a balanced diet and you already watch your DD fats. No worries!
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:19 AM   #217
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Thanks! Blonde! I love fat, but have noticed since going with PHD that I like to eat the foods that have the natural fat better than adding fat. Does this seem odd? For instance avocado, walnuts, mac nuts, black & green olives. OH, and I could eat the fat from a good rib eye or porterhouse any day.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:05 AM   #218
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I am curious as to why the recommendation for white rice and apparently white potatoes are okay too. After all the years of recommendations to get rid of all things white. Has this been discussed already?
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:18 AM   #219
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Hi Cici,
I am going to post some of the info that I have found this evening. I agree with Blonde on DD to limit fat if you are doing strict tater day.

Unless, you plan to count the calories for example:

1 baked tater 175 cals
1 tbsp butter 100 cals
2 slices of bacon 54

Total 329 cals

Or if you just want to eat taters all day, you can have more taters, but no fat to make it a true dd.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:20 AM   #220
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I know, that's interesing...white rice, but no grain.....? Isn't rice a grain? I believe it was said the both these foods are resistant starch. Sunday??
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:42 AM   #221
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I doubt that I will eat much rice, but I may add it in certain soups, stews, etc.
It doesn't have much nutrition, but is more of a filler, so I would rather add taters.

This is from his website. I will try and find info from the book to add later....

Quote:
The Place of Rice in Our Diet

Any food which is low in toxins can be included in our diet. Low toxicity is the key, because a missing nutrient can be obtained from other foods – or from a multivitamin or supplement. But there are usually no antidotes to a toxic food.

Rice is very low in toxicity. Most rice toxins reside in the bran, so milled white rice is already low in toxins. The great majority of white rice toxins are destroyed in cooking.

As a result, cooked white rice is almost toxin free. Cliff worried about phytic acid, but the amounts in cooked white rice are small – lower than almost all other seeds, nuts, grains, and legumes, and about one-twentieth the level found in such foods as sesame seeds, Brazilnuts, and pinto beans, as Wikipedia (and Melissa) have pointed out.

Phytic acid is also not all that dangerous. It is a mineral chelator, which leads to minerals being excreted rather than absorbed. The primary risk is that it will induce a mineral deficiency. Because phytic acid preferentially binds iron, which can be dangerous, some advocate its supplementation.

We don’t agree with that, but we don’t consider the small amount of phytic acid in rice to be dangerous, especially given that we recommend a mineral-rich diet and supplementation with both a multivitamin and specific key minerals.

Optimize Diet, Not Foods
Nutrient density of an individual food is not an overriding concern. Only the diet needs to be optimized – not individual foods. It’s OK to eat a food that is low in nutrient density if other nutrient-rich foods make up for it.

Our diet derives only about 20% of calories from carbs. Even for rice lovers, rice is unlikely to provide more than half that, or 10% of energy. If rice is half as nutrient dense as alternative “Paleo” starches, it diminishes nutrient intake by only 5%. That’s easy enough to make up by eating more vegetables, liver, and eggs – or by taking a multivitamin.

Many Paleo dieters speak of “cheat” foods, as if it was somehow immoral, or a violation of the diet, to eat them. There are no “cheat foods” on our diet.

For instance, we’ll often eat strawberries with whipped cream sweetened with rice syrup. This is low in nutrients, but also low in toxins. It would not do as the primary food of the day, but as a dessert or snack it is quite healthy.

Glucose is a Nutrient

This is a point many low-carb dieters seem to forget. Macronutrients are nutrients too.

The body needs glucose. Glycoproteins and polysaccharide molecules like glycosaminoglycans are important structural components of the body; certain cell types rely on glucose for energy; and the immune system relies on glucose for generation of reactive oxygen species to kill pathogens.

If no carbs are eaten, the body has to generate glucose from protein. Glucose production may be insufficient or suboptimal. That was the point of our Zero-Carb Dangers series.

Of course, in excess glucose could become a toxin. But the same can be said for protein and polyunsaturated fats. We don’t exclude meat or salmon from the diet because they can be over-eaten. One shouldn’t exclude rice either.

Conclusion
A healthy diet should contain a diversity of foods. This will reduce the diet’s toxicity, improve micronutrient ratios, and increase meal pleasurability.

Rice should not provide a large share of dietary calories – probably not more than 10% – but there is no reason to reject it merely because it is a grain. True, it comes from a bad family. But it’s the good child. Don’t hold its relatives against it.
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Old 01-19-2013, 02:18 PM   #222
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Thanks Sunday. This is such a nice gentle approach.
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Old 01-19-2013, 02:55 PM   #223
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Thank you Sunday! You are so wonderful to find and post this for us. A lot of this stuff is over my head but I certainly agree that it is the overall diet that can make or break one's health, not just "certain" food groups. I do love rice and look forward to the occasional sushi roll.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:41 AM   #224
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Spent a couple hours rereading the entire thread. A number of things floating through the jungle called my mind right now.

Fasting:

A) From what I can see, Jaminet recommends 16 hour protein fast 2-3x weekly and vascilates on the advantages of longer fasting. I get two ideas but not sure I can pin them on him. 1) fasting longer can place unnecessary stress on the body. 2) fasting longer may be therapeutic. These two ideas seem contrary to each other.

B) JUDDDers weighing in here seem to be trying to 16 hour total fast daily plus the DD restrictions.

This would seem to be too much of a good thing, or am I missing something.

Since I am queen of having too many balls in the air and dropping them all, it really seems like I must choose a route and master it before adding something else. Wondering if I master the 16 hour protein fast, if that will naturally make DDs easier down the road. My thought is last protein at 3pm with an evening carb and regular breakfast at 7am.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:51 AM   #225
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Cici~ I follow Johnson's Alternate Calorie Diet (up day down day). I don't attempt any kind of window, just 500 calories or less on DD's. I can't worry about all of the the info that's out there regarding 'windows' of fasting or eating or whatever. It's too much for me. I too can only juggle so much at a time. While I can't advise you about your 'plan" (Sunday will know more) I do sincerely believe that ultimately we have to find a 'plan' that works for us. My friend here, Leo41, calls it finding your 'sweet spot". Try your plan, see how it works for you...then you can adjust it accordingly. Or not. There is a lot of info to be gleaned and understood and filed. Do what helps you the most, helps you to be consistent. That's where weight loss will occur, IMHO.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:53 AM   #226
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Cici,
I am 5'4" and 1670/340 is what my Johnson calculator shows at my weight. I just round down because it simplifies this plan. I believe that Jaminet only does 2 days of fasting per week. I have noticed a lot of different PHD'ers do this and if I make it to my goal, I may transition to this myself. However, 16 hours seems to feel good to me. It hasn't even felt stressful yet. He did say in his answer that if any fasting is uncomfortable or to the point of not feeling right, then it is better to relieve the fast.

One thing that I am learning, and Jaminet believes, is that when you eat PHD mode, which seems to be all that your body needs nutritionally, you will naturally lose down to your perfect weight. I am hoping this to be true and if so, I may not need to JUDDD, but will only do the daily fast of 16 hours. I think the 16 hours will keep the sirt-1 flowing well and not need to go so low on DD. Does this make sense to you?
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:53 AM   #227
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Sunday, I was curious about your UD/DD numbers. No need to answer if it is too personal. Yours are so much lower than mine which are 390/1933 according to Johnson's calculator. I'm 5'7". I think I saw your age mentioned elsewhere and you are a few years younger and definately more active. You are at a lower weight now. Did you use a different calculator for your numbers. Did you adjust for your lower weight?

I am pretty sure these numbers are close as I can eat 2000/day most days with gusts up to 3000 with just an occasional adjustment day after overeating and maintain my current weight. So theoretically, the DD should create the calorie deficit to lose. Trouble is I am driven to eat up to that 2000 calories and never have lost my appetite for more than a couple days making DDs a ridiculous exercise in self-torment.

Am thinking that once I get the 16 hour piece under my belt with the good nutrition, I may opt for a gentler swinging rotation schedule. Since my total for two days would equal 2323 and Johnson recommends no less than 1000 spread between the two days for optimal benefits, seems like I could split that up more like 700/1700 just varying the fat component.

Kind of just thinking out loud here.

Oops all kinds of answers while I was editing and reorganizing.

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Old 01-20-2013, 11:57 AM   #228
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Yes, Blonde, is right! It has to feel good to you in order for you to stick with the plan. PHD is about the easiest way for me to eat and not cost me a lot of time cooking or buying special foods. The 65/20/15, believe it or not, can be much simpler than I am making it. I just seem to gravitate to the same foods. Turkey, Shrimp, Tilapia, BB, Kefir, all veggies.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:59 AM   #229
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Also, I am hoping that by trying to stay in the 8 hour window that I am training myself for better habits. For instance, I had developed a habit of grazing on nuts in the evenings. Nuts can add up very fast! Like lightening speed.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:01 PM   #230
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Thanks for your replies. I am making a kind of old style exchange list to make sure I choose variety and all the different recommendations daily/weekly. Think it will make it easier for me in the long run.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:06 PM   #231
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Cici, I am 3 inches shorter and I am another person who started out at 1800-1900 cals for UD, but as I lost I lowered that UD number. I lose very slowly normally. That is why I started digging around for a healthy method.

Which btw, Jaminet is not the only one who supports the idea that we will lose weight naturally by eating the right foods, most Paleo peeps believe this way as well. They all believe in some type of fasting, but that eating the right foods for your body's daily needs will get you to your perfect weight.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:17 PM   #232
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Cici,

I just now saw your post about 1700/700. Anyway, I think that sounds great and I actually believe it would be enough deficit for JUDDD.

The one reason that I like the 16 hour fast, is that I suspect that we could eat more on dd with the 8 hour window, in other words, greater than 300 cals. I can't remember who I was talking to about this, I am sorry, but I have floated around so much on this board, but we both came to this conclusion. It may have been Ouiz. I also have a nagging concern that I don't want to be stuck w/ very low DD's when I arrive at maintenance. I keep hearing Juddders say that they haven't been able to raise their DD's and yet they are at goal. If this is true, then I would much rather just eat the right foods and only fast a couple of days per week at 16 hours.
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Old 01-20-2013, 06:47 PM   #233
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Has anyone read much of Kurt Harris, (PaNu) blog? He is another doctor who believes that rice & potatoes are safe starches. He has a very interesting blog called, "Archevore" and his diet plan is very similar to PHD, except for possibly higher in fat.

This is from his blog...

Quote:
I also have come to see most starchy plant organs as perfectly legitimate fuel sources.

Low carb plans have helped people lose fat by reducing food reward from white flour and excess sugar and maybe linoleic acid. This is by accident as it happens that most of the "carbs" in our diet are coming in the form of manufactured and processed items that are simply not real food. Low carb does not work for most people via effects on blood sugar or insulin "locking away" fat. Insulin is necessary to store fat, but is not the main hormone regulating fat storage. That would be leptin.

My reading of the anthropology and ethnology literature, as well as my current understanding of biochemistry and metabolism, lead me to see the human metabolism as a multi-fuel stove, equally capable of burning either glucose or fatty acids at the cellular level depending on the organ, the task and the diet, and equally capable of depending on either animal fats or starches from plants as our dietary fuel source, depending on the biome (biological environment) we find ourselves born in or that we migrate to.

We are a highly adaptable species. It is not plausible that carbohydrates as a class of macronutrient are toxic.

Diabetics need to avoid high carbohydrate intake the same way those with gall bladder disease need to avoid fat, but carbohydrates do not cause obesity or diabetes and fat consumption does not cause gall bladder disease (in fact low fat diets may contribute to gallstone formation via stasis)
and...

Quote:
My list is white potatoes, sweet potatoes, white rice and bananas. If more exotic fare like plantains and taro is available to you, that is fine, too. Except for white rice, these are all whole food starch sources with good mineral and micronutrient content that have been eaten in good health for thousands of years in many environments by genetically diverse populations. Many of these plants have spread far from their biomes of origin and serve as staples for populations who have adopted them with success over just the past few thousand years.

These starchy plant organs or vegetables are like night and day compared to most cereal grains, particularly wheat. One can eat more than half of calories from these safe starches without the risk of disease from phytates and mineral deficiencies one would have from relying on grains.

White rice is kind of a special case. It lacks the nutrients of root vegetables and starchy fruits like plantain and banana, but is good in reasonable quantities as it is a very benign grain that is easy to digest and gluten free.

I think consumption of quality animal products is the sine qua non of a healthy diet.



Once you have that, then eating starchy plants is more important for nutrition than eating colorful leafy greens - the veggies that are high fiber and low starch. (Some green leafy vegetables are good sources of folate and along with some fruits are sources of flavonoids that may benefit you via hormesis.)

I view most non-starchy fruit with indifference. In reasonable quantities it is fine but it won't save your life either. I like citrus now and then myself, especially grapefruit. But better to rely on starchy vegetables for carbohydrate intake than fruit.

Primitive populations practicing horticulture or hunting and gathering do not eat a lot of big green salads with lots of variety, but they do eat healthy starchy plant organs with monotony on top of their foraged animal foods.

Eating a very low carb (VLC) diet for a period of time can be a good fat loss maneuver, acting via the effects of ketosis on appetite suppression. I also like to see people limit themselves to two or three meals a day with absolutely no snacking, and it may give benefits via hormesis for longer periods of fasting (24 hours or more) once in a while.

But a long term VLC ketogenic diet is not a good idea. It does not mimic the ancestral diet in general, even if some populations have tolerated it when they had to. There is no need for most people to do it to lose fat, as food reward effects are more powerful. I would advocate long term ketosis in those with neurodegenerative brains diseases like Alzheimer dementia and Parkinson disease, and a 10 day water fast followed by long term ketogenic diet is worth trying if you have cancer.

But I would not recommend VLC ketosis as a long term way of life the way I would not

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Old 01-20-2013, 07:05 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cici52 View Post
Spent a couple hours rereading the entire thread. A number of things floating through the jungle called my mind right now.

Fasting:

A) From what I can see, Jaminet recommends 16 hour protein fast 2-3x weekly and vascilates on the advantages of longer fasting. I get two ideas but not sure I can pin them on him. 1) fasting longer can place unnecessary stress on the body. 2) fasting longer may be therapeutic. These two ideas seem contrary to each other.

B) JUDDDers weighing in here seem to be trying to 16 hour total fast daily plus the DD restrictions.

This would seem to be too much of a good thing, or am I missing something.
Yes, Cici, you could be right about this being too much of a good thing. Especially since I am a menopausal woman. I have to give this a few weeks, before I can honestly say either way though. If I quit now, I will never know!

Like I said yesterday, I am new at this PHD lifestyle myself. I have JUDDD for the last year and realize that it may be the one & only thing that has kept me from gaining during this crazy period in my life. I am by no means the perfect JUDDDer. I have had several periods of maintenance or higher DD's and that is just how I have had to roll with the life that I lead.

If I find that 16 hours is just not good for me, doesn't feel right, I will go back to having longer eating windows, but still JUDDD. I am looking for the holy grail for the "older woman" who still has poundage to shed.
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:49 AM   #235
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Again, thank you Sunday! Most informative!
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Old 01-21-2013, 09:38 AM   #236
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Sunday,
Again, thanks for all of your information. I have now read quite a bit and feel I want to begin adding components in bit by bit. I have been reading about PHD weight loss and am a bit bummed about "fats". I love my butter and cream! But cutting the calories has to come from somewhere. The other thing is I just cannot do any organ meats. Not even capsules. It still haunts me from my childhood days!

I have been doing the 16/8 and that is going well.
I have gone back to eating my bone broth and fermented foods more regularly.
I have added resistant starch to my diet.
I have cut down on the protein.

It is wonderful for me to see the difference the starches provide. I have been eating retrograded potatoes and I love how satiated I feel after eating them and eating them stops the desire to binge that I sometimes get. Who would have thought that?

Today I am making coconut water kefir. I got my water kefir grains and am excited to experiment! It really takes a lot of time to be healthy, doesn't it? I was reading about the process for fermenting vegetables, and I just think I will stick to buying Bubbie's sauerkraut. I used to make sauerkraut years ago and I just have gotten lazy in my old age! I wish I could just buy a good quality bone broth too!

I lost weight great for the first half a year and then just stopped. Maintaining is good, but I have a lot to still lose. I have lowered my calories on up days and down days, etc., so it has to be something else going on.

Keep the info coming!!
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Old 01-21-2013, 09:58 AM   #237
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Bev, I am thrilled to know that potatoes are helping with this PHD transition. I am going to confess that I still feel a bit guilty about eating them. Which shows how hardline I use to be about starch. It is a mindset that quite truthfully, may have been detrimental in my weight loss goals. I see now that I struggled needlessly, I just feel relieved to have been enlightened. .

I have studied a lot of reviews on the 8 hour window and 16 hour fast. Stayed up and read quite a bit on this from body builders and one doctor. I think for me the 5:2 may be much gentler, but since I am not having problems yet with 16 hour fast, will keep it up until I reach that point. I am seeing now that when I eat PHD foods, stay away from junk, there really is no reason to limit my cals to such low DD number eod? I will gradually work toward a higher DD and record what happens with my scale.
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:09 AM   #238
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I LOVE Kurt Harris. I wish that he were still blogging! From what I understand, he was VLC for at least 2 years and thought that was the way, truth, and the light like so many. Then he transitioned over to adding more starches and even started eating some (gasp!) rice krispies. There was a great podcast with Robb Wolf and Dr. Harris a few years back--worth a listen for sure and the transcript is online.

Beverly--I definitely still feel like I'm getting plenty of fat even on the PHD weight loss. The ratios I'm using (per the latest book, carb percentages were lower when they initially made them) are 15% protein, 30% carbs, and 55% fat. It's hard for me to keep 15% protein sometimes and that veers up towards 20% and I take fat down to 5% then.

Update . . .

I am straight up calorie counting (no JUDDing right now) and am losing about a lb a week. My calorie levels are a bit higher right now than they likely should be, but I'm hoping I can keep them a bit lower as I get more nourished. I am throwing the 16-hr fast in there when I can but not too often as of yet.

SO . . . I know this might be TMI, but it is a direct benefit of the PHD so I will share. I JUDDed from March-December of last year. I never could keep my down days as low as I wanted (usually between 500-800) and even that I found a challenge. Let's just say the idea of doing low down days into maintenance was not appealing to me. Despite the benefits I did feel, though, I was constipated. I took magnesium, did all sorts of things, and I just could never get regular. EVER. It was driving me crazy.

I went to Disney for the week after Christmas and I ate whatever I wanted and walked a ton each day. I still didn't become regular during that time, but I know it can take a while. When I came back home on January 6th I switched over to PHD and roughly the same number of calories per day (around the 1400-1800 range). I did NOT add a lot more veggies (working on it!) but what I did do was add 450-600 calories every day of potato. Sometimes rice is a third of that, but most days it's straight up potatoes. Hash browns with my breakfast, potatoes with my lunch, potatoes with my dinner. You get the idea. The upshot? My bathroom issues, with NO magnesium supplementation mind you, seem to have resolved. I cannot tell you how happy this makes me.

I'm very tempted to 5:2 fast just to get some weight off more quickly (and I don't find 2 days a week as demoralizing as I did every other day ) but I don't want to mess up a good thing. I'm thinking I will wait a bit and then, if I try 5:2, make those down days heavily potato based.
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Last edited by mttemple4; 01-21-2013 at 10:15 AM.. Reason: typos!
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:09 AM   #239
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I forgot to mention that when studying the new 8 hour diet, which is really the old, "Eat Stop Eat" or "LeanGains", I noticed that they concentrate on exercising first thing each morning while fasted. He says at the minimum 8 minutes. I have been doing 30 minutes of either weights or toning, but wish to add 30 minutes in the evening of walking/rebounding. I seem to think this is my best time to get the aerobic type exercise in.

These guys did not find muscle loss during this type fast, but I wonder if it is because they were doing fasted training?

Health Correlator: Muscle loss during short-term fasting

How To Do Intermittent Fasting | Intermittent Fasting | John Berardi

Intermittent Fasting E-book | Intermittent Fasting | John Berardi
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:16 AM   #240
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Joyce! Thank you! I wish you could see my big GIGANTIC smile right now.
I can't wait for Cici to read your post! I was hesitant to state this for certain, because I am not to where you are yet, but it looks like as long as we stay with PHD, we can really eat more food.

My hope is to just do 16 hour daily fast and eat healthy, allowing myself some dark choc & wine once in a while (not every day). And to arrive at goal without too much struggle.
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