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Old 01-13-2013, 03:46 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by mttemple4 View Post
Thank you, Sunday!

From what I understand of the diet so far, it is by no means high carb. It is low carb despite the addition of the safe starches. Paul and Shou-Ching believe that 30% of calories from carbs is about what the body needs to supply glucose. If you're under that, your body will have a deficit (and you'll certainly get what you need via gluconeogenesis, but being too low carb can be risky in the long term according to the book) and if you get more than 30% of your calories from carbs you will have an excess of glucose for your body's needs**. So it is still very much a low carb, high fat, moderate protein diet.

I also really enjoyed that series on weight loss; though he's saying to cut the fat, it's still not a low fat diet. I think it would be easy for someone to read here and there and panic, thinking "what is this, safe starches gone wild?" or "low fat, huh???" Not saying that anyone here is doing that by any means, just something I've considered while reading over there for a while.

What I'm doing right now is taking a bit of a JUDDD break (but check back next week ) and trying the Perfect Health Diet approach within my calorie guidelines. I use Lose It and that has me at 1425 calories daily to lose 1 1/2 lbs per week. Within that, I'm attempting to get the nutrients I need (still working on that for sure!) and doing my macros pretty much according to the weight loss blog post above. I'll post my breakdown of this below too--helped me to make sense of it, writing it out this way.


So . . . a sample "weight loss" approach on Perfect Health Diet according to the formulas in their blog post on the subject would be something like this . . .

Daily--

300 calories from protein ( 75 grams)
400 calories from "safe starch"/plants (100g carbs)
500-700 calories from fat (55-77 grams)

The authors never say you should eat only 1200-1400 calories--that's my estimation--but they do talk about the lower end of calories when they discuss the case of reader and frequent commenter ERP, who was older and sedentary as she awaited surgery and still wanted weight loss.



Now, if I hop back onto JUDDD (which I likely will as I have been consistently JUDDDing from March 26 through last week), I thought that I might try a higher down day (which I had been doing, and just losing more slowly) of 75 g protein, 75g carb, and 22g fat for 800 calories. The authors seem to feel strongly that one's protein + carbs should equal a minimum of 600 calories daily (of course this is presuming a full calorie day, not JUDDDing). They say if one is on the lower end of the carb spectrum--20% is still within their recommended range--then she should have a bit more protein so that the protein and carb always add up to 600 calories worth.

It's quite fascinating to me! I liked reading about their ketogenic variation which still uses the safe starch but adds coconut and/or MCT oil and I also enjoyed the safe starches panel at AHS 12 that is currently on Vimeo. Super interesting stuff. In my previously health unaware state, I have to say that I never distinguished wheat carbs from potato/rice carbs and now that I'm including more of the latter and less of the former, I am seeing a difference in how my body responds.

**Just editing to add that, on my diet of around 1400 calories this is working out to be around 70-85g of carbs a day. I know a few here have read Wolfgang Lutz's "Life without Bread" and he gives a 72g threshold for carbs--saying that health benefits below that are not so great that they are worth "taxing" the body over. Just an interesting observation about how those overlap! Also, if you watch the Safe Starches AHS panel, you'll see that Cate Shanahan says none of her patients have complained about "issues" being low carb, but then she states that she has them at about 70g carb. So, at least according to these viewpoints, it's going below 50g of carb per day for LONG periods of time that can tax the body and create long term issues. I've heard in many other areas of the paleosphere folks recommending very low carb acutely but not indefinitely.

I wanted to bold Joyce's comment about weight loss. Just in case, any of us are still trying to lose, (like me)! I have noticed that my desire for all of the things that were causing me issues (walnuts, pecans, & mac nuts) is almost completely gone. I can't tell you how huge this is for me. I was living on these for a quick (filler) when I was short on cals. Not that they aren't healthy, but truly don't think it is good for me in my quest for weight loss.
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Old 01-13-2013, 04:36 PM   #152
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@Sunday, ok, what I "think" you are saying is that if I need to eat later in the evening, if I start out with protein in the a.m., the only snack I can have later at night is one of those things on the list that doesn't have any protein - or what about some fat? Like tea with coconut oil in it? As long as I limit my protein intake to 8 hours and fast 16 hours from protein? Is that it? I can do that, I think. As long as I get my protein requirements in early in the day, I have no problems having something else in the evening.

And to answer your question, I do the Rx hcg. I'm working my way down right now from my stupid after holiday weight gain (why?WHY?) and then I will try to stabilize for a week or so and then do a round and jump right back on JUDDD. I know people on the hcg side say not to do what I did before and plan to to again, that JUDDD is too stringent coming right off of hcg, but I really need to kick this into high gear. I have goals to meet, d@mmit.
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Old 01-13-2013, 04:49 PM   #153
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Marie,

Yes, that is what I am saying and CO is just fine and in fact, Paul recommends it strongly. I never read the Shangri-La plan, but the Jaminets believes that CO during fasts is important and it is a main part of that plan. I have been using the CO to cook with, but mix the MCT oil in my coffee w/ butter. He also suggests that butter is fine during this time of no protein.

I am working my way back to having my last meal at earlier time (4), so that I can have a true breakfast. I am curious if it will be easier. Let me know how it feels for you. I notice that I had quite a bit of hunger the 1st evening, but drank hot tea and then went to bed early. After that it was not an issue at all.
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Old 01-13-2013, 04:58 PM   #154
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I was one of Seth's first "lab rats" for the shangri la diet. Coconut oil was considered way too flavorful to use. I know Paul J advocates MCT oil as a tasteless oil.

I have thought about adding a shangri la shot of oil to my fasting. I really really seem to have a problem with added fats however, so I haven't tried it yet.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:07 PM   #155
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The only thing I could see that would be a problem for me is eating anything "energy increasing" in the evening. I could see that as an issue with CO, since it's thermogenic. I have a problem going to sleep and that's why I have usually reserved even a bite or two of protein in the evening with my cortisol/adrenal issues and why I need to start protein right away in the morning. I will probably just try fruit and tea. But this is still awhile away for me, after my next hcg round, or perhaps even during it. I could make sure to eat all my protein within that 8 hour period and have fruit for nighttime. Apples are on my hcg list and they're on that no protein list.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:12 PM   #156
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Ouiz & Marie, I have the NOW brand MCT oil and it doesn't really effect me as far as giving me too much energy. I use to do the oil pulling w/ EVCO at night before bed and then when I wake. It didn't effect me falling to sleep either. I think I may have the opposite of sleep issues, because it has never bothered me even when fasting for long periods.

Marie, I remember saving cukes and celery soaked in acv for evening snacks while on hcg protocol. Apples would work fine.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:30 PM   #157
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Just went to read the reviews from others taking MCT oil in w/ morning coffee (bulletproof) and it may be just what you need for tax season Marie. I had forgotten about the cognitive benefits of ketosis and especially w/ a tbsp of medium chain triglycerides. Many of the reviews spoke about the immediate focus and energy they felt when taken early. I would definitely not drink this after 5:00 pm. Also, if you have never used it before, it will make you go directly to the potty. I learned this early on. It gets everything moving and as one person described it is like a rocket. LOL!
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Old 01-13-2013, 07:49 PM   #158
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Ya, I suspected I shouldn't take a good fat at night for that reason. Keep fat and protein in the morning for my adrenals and to be able to sleep at night. All this is kinda hard to keep on schedule. Sometimes a girl just wants to EAT what she wants LOL. I will experiment with some low-protein hcg-protocol veggies/fruits for evening. I seriously can't look at cucumbers anymore! Maybe if I saved half an apple? I also have subbed blueberries on occasion, they're lower glycemic. But I like them with yogurt, which has protein. Apples I can eat by themselves. What about strawberries? a few bites of those before bed with nighttime meds/vitamins would probably be enough for my tummy.
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:22 PM   #159
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I had both blueberries & strawberries while on Hcg too. I think that sounds very reasonable. I am looking forward to following you as well. When will you begin?
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Old 01-14-2013, 06:10 AM   #160
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Hey Sunday and others reading the Q & A on the PHD website. WOW, I can see why you are addicted! The information is overwhelming. I ended up finding the Q&A, but it's strange that there isn't a direct link to it from the home page. I wonder how he has time to reply!!

I have been jumping up and back from the PHD book to the Jenny Ruhl Diet 101-Low Carb book.. Jenny believes that not everyone should be on a LC diet. Only those who have blood sugar issues should. The way to test if you don't know if you have those issues, is to get a glucometer and do some home testing. I think I am going to do that because I want to know. If I end up being okay with small portions of rice, sweet potato, etc., I'll feel much more comfortable diving head first into the PHD without worrying about the starch.
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Old 01-14-2013, 06:29 AM   #161
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dipgal--give it several days after you start eating starches--we see wild BS readings the first couple of days that then settle way down--and, as a matter of fact, may bring BS readings down lower than they were.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:10 AM   #162
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Judy & all,
Paul is working on a new website, I have seen him mention that his site definitely needs an overhaul. He will have a forum for all of the PHD peeps to interact which I think will be helpful.

I suspect his wife Shou-Ching is also answering some of the questions now.

On his site, they have their bios & both are impressive~

Quote:
Shou-Ching is a molecular biologist and cancer researcher at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center and Harvard Medical School, and Director of BIDMC’s Multi-Gene Transcriptional Profiling Core. Shou-Ching was born in Korea to Chinese parents, grew up in Korea, attended college at National Taiwan University in Taipei, and graduate school at University of Newcastle in Australia, before coming to the US to work at Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, Children’s Hospital Boston, and Beth Israel Deaconess and Harvard Medical School. Her publications may be found by searching Pubmed for “Shih SC” (through Sep 2011) and “Jaminet SC” (since Sep 2011).
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:15 AM   #163
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Judy,

Did you know that he links Jenny Ruhl and her website on his main page? I have read that he quotes from her book as well, when answering questions.
I think the thing that I like the most about both Jaminet's is they seem open to many ideas concerning health and do not seem to be on this "my method is the only correct plan". Although he has done extensive research and quite thoroughly about all of his health theories.
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:16 PM   #164
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I am totally enthralled with this discussion and just about ready to give it a try.
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:30 PM   #165
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I am totally enthralled with this discussion and just about ready to give it a try.
Hi Cici, I have only made a few changes, but already notice one major difference. I wake up feeling good and no hunger. I seem to have conquered what I call boredom/mindless eating. I am seeing the scale move again, waiting till Sat to weigh once more.

Changes this far~
Eating as closely to 65/20/15 as possible.
Drink bone broth daily.
Drink either kefir/kombucha regularly.
Fasting for 16 hours or more.
Eating as many veggies as possible plus added starchy potatoes, sweet taters, squash & fermented veggies.
Kettlebells or toning 3x per week.

My only concern right now is that today is an UD and I have only had 600 cals, I am stuffed 3 hours later, so I have a feeling that my numbers are not going to make it. I hope to have 700 cals for dinner, but am starting to feel some concern. The test will be to see if having low numbers here and there affect my sirtuins. Hopefully not!

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Old 01-15-2013, 03:17 PM   #166
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Ouiz & Marie, I have the NOW brand MCT oil and it doesn't really effect me as far as giving me too much energy. I use to do the oil pulling w/ EVCO at night before bed and then when I wake. It didn't effect me falling to sleep either. I think I may have the opposite of sleep issues, because it has never bothered me even when fasting for long periods.

Marie, I remember saving cukes and celery soaked in acv for evening snacks while on hcg protocol. Apples would work fine.
CO seems to effect people differently. Over on the NK forum, some are using it as an aid to help falling asleep and staying asleep through the night.
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:27 PM   #167
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CO seems to effect people differently. Over on the NK forum, some are using it as an aid to help falling asleep and staying asleep through the night.
Interesting, I wonder about that? Seems like I remember this in Bruce Fife's book on, "The Miracle of Coconut Oil". I will see if I can find the chapter and be back.
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:28 PM   #168
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Hi Cici, I have only made a few changes, but already notice one major difference. I wake up feeling good and no hunger. I seem to have conquered what I call boredom/mindless eating. I am seeing the scale move again, waiting till Sat to weigh once more.

Changes this far~
Eating as closely to 65/20/15 as possible.
Drink bone broth daily.
Drink either kefir/kombucha regularly.
Fasting for 16 hours or more.
Eating as many veggies as possible plus added starchy potatoes, sweet taters, squash & fermented veggies.
Kettlebells or toning 3x per week.

My only concern right now is that today is an UD and I have only had 600 cals, I am stuffed 3 hours later, so I have a feeling that my numbers are not going to make it. I hope to have 700 cals for dinner, but am starting to feel some concern. The test will be to see if having low numbers here and there affect my sirtuins. Hopefully not!
I am confused by the nutrition apple and the small circles inside seem to indicate that those items should be limited. But your changes seem to indicate that you think those should be incorporated daily. I have not read any thing but what is here. I am definately coming from a diet overload position. Threw it all out tonight and indulged a carb craving with fruit and cream. This woe seems normal and sane unless I cannot get everything from a normal supermarket. What are fermented veggies? Are weights on other things raw or cooked? I will reread to see if you already answered these questions.
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:38 PM   #169
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The only foods that are limited are the "pleasure foods" such as chocolate, alcohol, sweeteners, nuts, dairy & fruit. From what I understand, when he says limited, it means- do not make this your staple.

Fermented vegetables (in cases of severe digestive disorders, Dr. McBride recommends starting on the juice only, as the fiber of the vegetables may be too much to handle for a compromised digestive system. From there, slowly work your way up to consuming small amounts of vegetable, such as sauerkraut or cabbage) Salsas, Pickled Okra, Cukes.

And you don't need to consume huge amounts either. If you do not prefer the fermented veggies and would rather have cultured food, such as raw yogurt/kefir that would be fine too. Or if you like Kombucha. Just drink a bit each day. The greater the variety of fermented and cultured foods you include in your diet, the better, as each food will inoculate your gut with a variety of different microorganisms.

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Old 01-15-2013, 03:50 PM   #170
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I so very much want to catch up on this thread! Just popping in to say I am fully on board the PHD train (woo woo!) and loving it.

Yay! More to add soon. Thanks for all the info! I too am addicted to the Q&A. LOL!
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:11 PM   #171
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dipgal--give it several days after you start eating starches--we see wild BS readings the first couple of days that then settle way down--and, as a matter of fact, may bring BS readings down lower than they were.
This is so true! I've seen it play out in my blood glucose readings. I'm really surprised that people don't talk about it more. If you've been low carb, you will have some wild swings for a few days. If you google Hyperlipid Physiological insulin resistance or even paleo + ogtt/ oral glucose tolerance test you'll see some interesting material. I so often see folks say, "I had a potato after 2 weeks of induction and I felt horrible--proof that the potatoes are bad for me!" While potatoes very well may not suit some individuals (and I'm not discounting anyone's personal experience), it could also simply be that your body hasn't had to process carbs for a bit and it needs to get back up to speed as it were.

Fascinating stuff!
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:20 PM   #172
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Ouiz & Joyce, I must be the exception to the rule, because the potato hack never bothered me or made me feel off. I was pre-diabetic before I began JUDDD last Feb/Mar. I had been low carb prior, but decided after reading all of the JUDDD budds, that I could add carbs and may have been too liberal. Who knows? Began JUDDD, and hoped beyond hope that I could keep a few carbs/goodies but for some reason never considered only allowing veggie carbs. I wanted to keep bread, sugar, & ice cream just like my DH. I tried, but sank within the first couple of months.

I can honestly say that I was frightened to even introduce starch, because I felt that it had to be as bad or worse than sugar. The one thing that kept coming back to me was that when we went to dinner at a nice restaurant, I would order a baked potato to go with my steak. I never felt bad after eating, so why would that change? It didn't, but I had convinced myself psychologically that starch and sugar were, one and the same.

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Old 01-15-2013, 06:33 PM   #173
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I never felt bad either--I was so surprised when I started reading about folks having these horribly hungry very bad woozy days--But over and over I would read of someone who had a bad experience--and if they stuck with it, everything settled down--almost like a carb detox, y'know?
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:39 AM   #174
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CO seems to effect people differently. Over on the NK forum, some are using it as an aid to help falling asleep and staying asleep through the night.
Hmmm.... well, when not on hcg sometime when I feel brave I could try it. I just have such trouble sleeping and have developed a decent routine so far. Food for thought! It would be pretty easy to down a spoonful with evening vitamins/meds/sleepy tea!
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:41 AM   #175
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I had both blueberries & strawberries while on Hcg too. I think that sounds very reasonable. I am looking forward to following you as well. When will you begin?

I will probably begin loading for my hcg round next weekend. Right now, after losing holiday weight through extreme lowcarb high fat correction days and JUDDD, I am looking to stabilize just a bit before loading. I'll keep you posted!
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:48 AM   #176
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I noticed beer on a fermented vegetable list. I'm game for that! (googled) But seriously, I do love greek yogurt, saurkraut, and olives (also on the list). Would that cover it? Also, if the main point is healing the gut, I don't seem to have obvious gut problems.

"(Sunday)Began JUDDD, and hoped beyond hope that I could keep a few carbs/goodies but for some reason never considered only allowing veggie carbs. I wanted to keep bread, sugar, & ice cream just like my DH. I tried, but sank within the first couple of months.

I can honestly say that I was frightened to even introduce starch, because I felt that it had to be as bad or worse than sugar. The one thing that kept coming back to me was that when we went to dinner at a nice restaurant, I would order a baked potato to go with my steak. I never felt bad after eating, so why would that change? It didn't, but I had convinced myself psychologically that starch and sugar were, one and the same."


I could have written this, but as far as I know, am not prediabetic. I think my main problem is having dieted for 40 years and heard/read so many different phylosophies about good food/bad food, HF/LF, carbs/no carbs, eating window/spread it out all day, etc. has left me not believing anything and afraid whatever I do will be wrong. However, the body is pretty resiliant and I keep trying. The clincher for me will be when the weightloss gets going regularly downward.
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:55 AM   #177
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Just want to report that after a low UD of 1366 yesterday, I am at my low weight this morning. So, my bounce went down instead of up. This is hopefully a great sign. I will have about 370 calories today. I messed up on the ratios, but not sure I will be able to fix it.

DD~353 calories

Salad of Tomatoes, Green Onion & Kale ~ 54
1 cup of Mashed Taters - 210

Dinner - Chicken Broth w/ EVCO- 98
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:10 AM   #178
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Good day, Sunday. WTG!

Are things like cream, cheese, unfermented dairy okay?
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:46 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cici52 View Post
Good day, Sunday. WTG!

Are things like cream, cheese, unfermented dairy okay?

Yes but as I understand in limited quantities. I noticed some of his recipes had cheese, but as more of a condiment. As for sour cream, milk & such, I have taken it out except for in emergency. I replaced my creamer with coconut creamer. Not saying this is something anyone else has or needs to do. I am just trying it for my own trial or experiment. So far, as long as I have good coconut cream, I haven't felt too deprived.
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Old 01-17-2013, 06:15 AM   #180
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Woke up to another .8 lb down. I could have sworn it would be more, since I had lost after my UD, but unless my body fools me, I should be able to change my numbers on Sat for sure.

I have slowly moved my window down as well. So, I will be in 8-4 window today and plan on trying to bump this a bit further down ea day until I am at 7-3.

Wish, I wasn't so busy right now. I am going to be swamped at the office today.
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