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Old 01-08-2013, 08:28 PM   #121
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Wonderful! I must have written to him at the right time, because he answered very promptly.

My Q~
Hello Paul,

I have recently read your book and have been implementing your suggestions. I have been Paleo for the last year and also fasting every other day. I am a member of a forum that practices the Johnson Alternate Day Fast, where we have very low cals EOD, alternating with regular cals. I am trying to understand your guidelines for the 16 hour fast and the protein fasting.

Several of the women on this forum have read your book and we are anxious to know if when you speak of fasting for 16 hours, does this period include the fasting of protein? Or do we need to abstain from protein during the eating window as well?
I am 54 and have lost weight by following Paleo plus the IF, but would like to be able to change to the 16 hour plan with PHD.

One more question, when fasting if you take MCT oil instead of CO, should it only be a small amount such as 1 tbsp and do these cals need to be calculated. I eat 1600 on Up Day and 400 on DD.

Thank you!


Reply ~
Paul Jaminet January 8, 2013 at 10:33 pm
Quote:
Hi R,

There are many varieties of fast and different protocols may be optimal for different situations.

That said, I start from a baseline perspective of getting a normal amount of calories every day. The fasting period could be anywhere from 14 to 23 hours, but if the feeding period is very short it’s hard to eat a normal amount of calories. I think a 16 hour fast with two meals in an 8 hour window fits pretty comfortably into most people’s lifestyle, and isn’t too strenuous.

To make it more strenuous and thus potentially more therapeutic, you could either lengthen the daily fast or introduce alternate day fasting as in the Johnson protocol by reducing total calories one day and increasing them the next to compensate.

In general, I think the eating window should have normal amounts of protein regardless of what you are doing. Even if you do the Johnson style alternate day fast, I think doing it more protein sparing modified fast style, with normal protein but reduced carb and protein, makes more sense than cutting all macros equally. This is because we have a minimal protein reserve in the body, but a few days carb reserve in glycogen and many days fat reserve in adipose tissue.

MCT oil can be taken 1 tbsp during the fast to implement the Shangri-La Diet for weight loss, or can be taken in greater quantities spread over the day to make the diet ketogenic as therapy for certain neurological conditions such as epilepsy. However, it is not required by any means.

Hope this helps.
I am a bit embarrassed, because I believe if I had been able to wade through the many pages (he has had thousands of questions) I probably have an answer to our original query.

If anyone wants to read, he has several folks who have been asking many questions pertaining to IF as well as to all sorts of health issues from Circadian Rhythm to chronic health issues. I could sit here all day and read his answers.

My question is comment #115,366. Wow! He is certainly swamped to answer that many questions!
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Old 01-08-2013, 08:57 PM   #122
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This IF question was asked yesterday as well and I thought Dr. Jaminet's response is fascinating. My reason is that I find on UD's that I indulge in non-nutritional junk, sugar, bread or alcohol, I find the next day is
unbearable hunger-wise. I have always thought that the reason had to do with straying from mod carb to high carb. JUDDD is remarkably forgiving, but it can not keep us from facing the hunger pangs when we cross over to the dark side even if it is sporadically.

Quote:
Q~
I am a college student into health and fitness. I picked up your book, LOVE the science, and I’m pretty much eating as prescribed (sans broths and fermented vegetables)and supplementing.

I want to get started with intermittent fasting but I often become the hunger beast — it’s tough for me to go more than 3-4 hrs without eating in the day, in fact. Your reasoning is that as one becomes better nourished one may not have as strong an appetite, but does this effect take a while? I’m healthy, just want to add muscle but also drop a little fat at 5’7, 150-55 lbs.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Josh
Reply

Paul Jaminet January 7, 2013 at 8:09 pm

Quote:
Hi Josh,

Normally higher-fat lower-carb diets make it easy to fast. If fasting is really intolerable, it could indicate any number of issues, from thyroid problems to glucose regulation issues to gut dysbiosis/infection. If doctors don’t recognize anything, tests are normal, and you feel good, I’d just try adjusting the diet a bit and see how your body responds. It might also be interesting to invest in a blood glucose monitoring kit and see what your blood glucose is doing when you get hungry.

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Old 01-09-2013, 09:14 AM   #123
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Can you give me a link to where he is answering the questions? I waded through some stuff, but don't think I was in the area you are talking about.

Thanks...
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:30 AM   #124
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I can't quit reading. I suggest to all who have any questions, to please go to the Q & A on his site and ask away! He is answering promptly.

Also, I can't wait until he has his forum up and running. I will enjoy learning.

Hmmm, for some reason my calorie site which (I can't name here) is down a lot recently and so when I go to click on my nutritional info, it sends me to an error. Guess, this is a sign that I need to break down and buy a membership.
Bev, I will be trying to copy and paste my menu this afternoon. I want to give you the nutritional breakdown, because that is very crucial.

Foods that I eat quite often and rotate are~ Eggs, Turkey, Bone Broth (chicken) will be making beef this week, Tilapia, Salmon, Shrimp, Halibut, Bison, Roast beef, parmesan, muenster, farmer's, swiss, cheddar, & Gruyere
Sauer Kraut, all fermented veggies, salsas (both verde & reds) greek yogurt, kefir, blueberries, lemons, apples, strawberries, green beans, sweet tater, yukon golds, tomatoes, jalapenos & all peppers, onions, pumpkin, squash, zucchini, avocado, artichoke, kale, romaine, arugula, spinach, brocolli, cauli, cabbage, & black/green olives.

I cook always with EVCO & sporadically OO. I use OO in dressings, butter/ghee on lots of veggies/egg omelets and Braggs liquid aminos in place of soy, although, I recently purchased Coconut Aminos & will definitely be using it as well.

On his list of using sparingly or gently~ (UD only)
I have not given up black eye peas or cream. I do use Coconut Creamer in my coffee, but love hwc mixed with cream cheese for fruit clouds. And last but most certainly not least, wine (reds/white) fav Pinot Noir & Grigio*
& DARK Chocolate w/ sea salt & almonds.

I have not changed my UD/DD 1600/400 numbers, but noticed right away, that my hunger is decreasing substantially. So, I have been eating a little less for UD & a bit more or the same on DD. I am transitioning to fasting every day for 14-16 hours, so I may find that I do not need to restrict, because of the daily fast.
I will be the hamster in this little science project and will record my weigh ins/food/cals daily and report if it does, in fact, make a difference?

*banned until March, (self-imposed NY resolution).

Oh, full disclosure. I will probably never eat organ meats unless it is the turkey/chicken gizzards. I do agree that it is healthy and probably tasty. Just not my thing.

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Old 01-09-2013, 09:46 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seabreezes View Post
Can you give me a link to where he is answering the questions? I waded through some stuff, but don't think I was in the area you are talking about.

Thanks...
When you go to his site on the home page, far right side you will see the 1st column that's heading is Recent Comments, under that click on the 1st link that has Q&A. This will take you to the Q&A page, then if you scroll all of the way to the bottom, it will give you the opportunity to subscribe to his comments. He is building a new site with a forum & once that is complete, I will let everyone know. I have learned so much just reading other people's questions. Amazing!
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:45 AM   #126
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This is my 4th day of 16 hour fast with 8 hour window. I love it! I am doing 5 hour window today & tomorrow since I am off. 8 hours works best during the work week. I am posting my menus that I am using this far next. I am finally dropping some weight. I have been in a stall for about 2 weeks and was beginning to get a bit frustrated. Still staying with my JUDDD numbers although a bit higher DDs.
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:17 PM   #127
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I love it too Sunday. I've been doing it a long time. I basically eat at 10am, 2pm, and 6pm. It regulates my appetite soooo much better than when I eat an early breakfast and can't stop noshing all day. Thanks for recommending the Q&A over on Jaminet's site. I've been enjoying it.
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:04 PM   #128
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I love it too Sunday. I've been doing it a long time. I basically eat at 10am, 2pm, and 6pm. It regulates my appetite soooo much better than when I eat an early breakfast and can't stop noshing all day. Thanks for recommending the Q&A over on Jaminet's site. I've been enjoying it.
Thank you for bringing the tater hack to me! I had looked at PHD when it first hit the bookshelves, but was intimidated by all of the starch. After reading so much success with tater hack and on MDA, I noticed that I felt the same way when I had a baked tater during the mid day. What a great revelation for me!

I wonder if I will ever be able to eat as much as Dr. Jaminet recommends though? Basically, that is the only struggle that I am having. I love veggies more than anything, but my fast paced life keeps me from being able to have big meals. I am doing about 1400-1600 UD and 600 DD following the PHD.

DD's consist of mostly Bone Broth plus added veggies. I just love bone broth so much and have been savoring it like a long lost connection with my grandmother. Just went online and ordered my 1st veggie culture starter from Body Ecology and will be making Salsa Verde & Reds fermented. Keeping my fingers crossed.

I am also very excited because my daughter is interested in incorporating PH for her children & husband as well. She made her 1st bone broth yesterday and is freezing up portions in ice trays to add to their daily meals.
Just ordered her the books, "Nourishing Traditions" and "Wild Fermentation" by Fallon & Sandor Katz.
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:15 PM   #129
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Ha! I freeze my bone broth in silicon cupcake pans. The perfect size!!
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Old 01-12-2013, 02:26 PM   #130
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Ouis, since reading his Q&A, I am seeing a lot of PHD'ers, male & female, say that they lost weight just eating the phd and 8 hr window. My thought is that I may be able to transition to higher JUDDD numbers if this is true for me.
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Old 01-12-2013, 04:37 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by sunday View Post
This is my 4th day of 16 hour fast with 8 hour window. I love it! I am doing 5 hour window today & tomorrow since I am off. 8 hours works best during the work week. I am posting my menus that I am using this far next. I am finally dropping some weight. I have been in a stall for about 2 weeks and was beginning to get a bit frustrated. Still staying with my JUDDD numbers although a bit higher DDs.
OOOoooooo I must try. I have been in a long stall. It's definitely worth a shot. Thanks for all your info on this!
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Old 01-12-2013, 05:05 PM   #132
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OOOoooooo I must try. I have been in a long stall. It's definitely worth a shot. Thanks for all your info on this!
Beverly, I believe after I get the swing of this, I may be able to loosely JUDDD with PH foods as long as I stay in the window. Please bear with me, my DH has been kicking me off of the pc today, so I am slowly getting my menus copied to paste on here. I really think this is not too hard to do and the great thing is that you do not have to go all the way PHD, just incorporate the broth & some fermented foods. I have been having potatoes every single UD and even some DDs. I would never have believed this prior to the hack.

Also, I have yet to stay 65/25/15. I am close, but sometimes my protein is a bit higher.

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Old 01-12-2013, 05:08 PM   #133
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Also, as I understand Dr. J, as long as you are protein fasted, you may eat something before the 16 hours is up, such as EVCO or MCT oil in coffee. I tried Coconut milk Creamer in my coffee and it was wonderful. Just making sure that I didn't add any protein.
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Old 01-12-2013, 11:22 PM   #134
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Sunday, I am going to do another hcg round soon but when I go back to JUDDD after that I intend on incorporating some of your suggestions. My biggest question I guess is, I have been able to help my adrenals by having 20-30 grams of protein first thing in the morning. Without it, I feel wonky. How should I adjust the eating "window" when I work crazy hours? I am going to have to try MCT oil I guess, the bulletproof coffee is yummy with the butter or the co but it doesn't feel the same to me as protein powder or eggs. I get chest flutters, the best way I can put it, and anxious feelings which escalate, until I get some protein in. When I'm on hcg I don't notice it as much for some reason, which makes me think if it's true the fat is "released" that my body switches to fat burning but without hcg I need protein. I wonder if there is a way to train my body to accept fat instead of protein to calm itself without hcg?
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:07 AM   #135
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Marie, I think this is a good question for Dr. Jaminet. He will answer very promptly also.

I may consider this as an option and may try it to let you know, because I love protein 1st thing as well.

For example- Begin 8 hour window starting with the 1st protein. So, if I eat at 8:00 am, then make certain to have my last meal at no later than 4:00 pm. If you have to eat something after 4, remain protein free such as~

Apple
Applesauce
Papaya
Honeydew Melon
Cucumbers
Eggplant
Cabbage
Celery
Stringbeans *you could even add as small amount of butter for taste

I know this list is short, but almost everything has protein.


When you have a few spare minutes and can read the Q & A on his site, you will probably see this question. I am looking forward to his forum, so we can read from the successful more experienced PHD folks.

Do you do the real RX Hcg? Or homeopathic? I have been considering one round for Feb, basically to shake up my non-budging weight losses. I think I have hit a weight that my body loves and knows well. Or it could be from beginning Kettlebells and weight training too? Not sure? One other drawback to me doing hcg, is that I won't have had much time to practice the PHD and I fear that it will I go bonkers without fat. My body has become fat-adapted.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:33 AM   #136
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If you will notice with our JUDDD budds, the protein fasting seems to be working extremely well for the most successful budds. For instance, Kimberly (sterling girl) and Carly both do this and lost quite fast and steady. Carly may go the longest of any, since she doesn't eat until late afternoon and seems to stay in a 6 hr window. Kimberly had a 7 to 8 hour window. Adding this window to ADF works extremely well for some fasters.

Also, the new diet book that is out, "The 8 Hr Diet" that all of the morning shows have been reviewing is essentially the exact same thing. They are copying off of "Eat Stop Eat" or "The Warrior Diet". All different forms of IF. When I was young, a lady in our church had the best lean figure and never gained. I was at her house once and we began asking her what she did to stay so lean and fit. She said that she never ate past 3:00 pm. Very simple, she ate a big breakfast and a late lunch around 2:00 and was not a night eater.

Also, Kimberly does have cream in her coffee, which I went and checked S/F Coffeemate and it is zero protein w/ 10 calories.

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Old 01-13-2013, 07:41 AM   #137
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Finally, here is my tally of this weeks menus and percentages. If you will notice that DD's are next to impossible to get the right ratios unless you have higher DD. I believe with PHD, I will be able to raise my DD to 700, but am going to give this a few more days. I am down 3 lbs since 1.09 w/ doing absolute fast of 16 - 19 hours. I will have to make myself weigh daily in order to know how this is working, so that is going to be a challenge. I added weights in on 1/1 and more toning. I will try to continue doing this at least 3 days per week as well.

1.09 UD ~ 54/21/22 ~ 1581 Cals
Breakfast - Coffee tbsp of Coconut Cream & tbsp of Mct oil
Lunch – 2 oz of Crockpot Shredded Taco Chicken on bed of Romaine w/ Kefir Ranch dressing, 1 cup mashed taters
Dinner - 10 chicken wings
Desert – Dk chocolate w/ sea salt

1.10 DD 54/23/23 661 Cals
Breakfast – Coffee tbsp of coconut creamer & tbsp of butter
Lunch – 2 slices of bacon on parmesan chicken spinach salad.
Dinner – 1 cup of French Onion Soup w/ 14 Extra Crispy Golden Crinkles

1.11 UD 58/23/19 1590 Cals

Breakfast – Coffee tbsp of coconut creamer & tbsp of mct oil
Lunch – 3 oz Grilled Chicken w/ sliced swiss cheese and asparagus, 1 cup of bone broth soup
Dinner - Grilled Shrimp Taco Salad w/ avocado, salsa
Dessert – 1 sanders dark choc caramel,
1 cup Fleur de Sel Popcorn, Caramel,

1.12. DD 54/18/28 547 cals
Br – Coffee tbsp of coconut creamer & tbsp of butter
Lunch – 3 oz Grilled Chicken w/ Salsa
Dinner – Bone broth soup

1.13 UD 63/22/15 1590 cals
Breakfast – Coffee tbsp of coconut creamer & butter, mct oil
Lunch – 2 slices of bacon, 2 eggs, hashbrowns fried in butter
Dinner – 3 oz Grilled Tilapia, Avocado/Blueberry/Spinach salad, grilled asparagus
Bone broth soup
Dessert – 1 dark choc caramel

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Old 01-13-2013, 08:53 AM   #138
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Thanks for all of this Sunday! I have a lot of catching up to do.
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Old 01-13-2013, 09:26 AM   #139
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Kristin I am obsessed w/ reading Jaminet's Q&A!!! Can't tell you how late I have been up reading, but enjoying fully...

I failed to add that I drink 8 oz of Kombucha each day so, please add 30 more cals to the above. I know that it throws my DD over, but it is a good pro-biotic and helps when I don't eat enough fermented veggies.

Hope everyone noticed that I am having my dark chocolate?!? Starting in March, I hope to add the wine.

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Old 01-13-2013, 09:35 AM   #140
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Just want to warn everyone to be sure and pour your broth through a fine sieve before storing.

I just made a new batch of chicken broth in crockpot from a whole chicken carcass roasted first, threw in a bag of organic baby carrots & one whole stock of celery, garlic, fresh rosemary, garlic & thyme. It is amazing!!! But, I think I may have accidentally left a sliver of chicken bone and almost swallowed. Organic whole chickens seem to have smaller bones and especially the tiny bones in the wings. Caution to all BB makers.
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Old 01-13-2013, 09:37 AM   #141
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Thanks for all of this Sunday! I have a lot of catching up to do.
Almost forgot to add K! Yes, you were correct about the 16 hours! I am so glad that I re-checked on that, because it may be very important in my fasting. It is so interesting to read all of the people who are IFing in this method.
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Old 01-13-2013, 09:55 AM   #142
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Woohoo! I think I finally have our answer Kristin! :

Yes! Jaminet recommends 16 hr fasting w/ 8 hour window. However, his belief is that the period of autophagy needs not be more than 16 hours. He truly believes that we will receive the optimal benefit to try and keep it at a true fast from dinner until breakfast. Now, he does address that some IF'ers prefer to do longer fasts but it is not necessary, as well as not advantageous.

Sunday, I'm miles behind, but I read the same thing and am still wondering whether this means that the JUDDD fast, which is effectively 36 hours, is beneficial for all of us. I read his answer to you about ADF being more strongly therapeutic, possibly - if it's necessary. But holy moly, how do we know on a individual basis, whether we should be doing regular calories every day in the condensed window or doing the up-down and effectively fasting for much, much longer?
Hope I've described my question adequately. I'm curious because I go through periods during which I crave low DDs, and other periods during which I can't bear the thought of a low DD. I wonder whether this depends at all on how close we are to maintenance weight or on how healthy we are generally.
I also wonder whether I'm just horribly undisciplined or whether my body's trying to tell me something.
Total apologies if this has already been covered.
Ps I LOVE bone broth.
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:08 AM   #143
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10,2, and 6. DD or UD--an awesome schedule!
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:16 AM   #144
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Ouiz, yeah but what about the caloric bit? DD cals mean that you're really fasting all day long even if you're eating 300 cals during your window on that day. So that means a 36 hour fast.
My god, I must not be asking this clearly. It makes me laugh.
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:27 AM   #145
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No Kristin, you are right, that the ADF is/could be more therapeutic, but more importantly is the absolute fast from protein. No matter which you prefer, because he said that both are great, remember to absolute fast from protein for 16 hours.

It is easier for me to stay true to PHD and stop eating at say 5, then not eat again until 9 am or after the following day, no matter UD or DD. I can have butter/mct in my coffee, but no protein. My belief is that once I get this 16 hour habit going strong, that my dd could possibly remain at the higher cals, as long as I 16 hour protein fast. Hope this makes sense!
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:29 AM   #146
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Notice how easily Carly and Kimberly lost on 16 hour and longer absolute fasting? I believe Dawn may have done this as well. I kept trying to eat upon rising and sometimes my last meal the day before was at 7, so I was literally only protein fasting for about 12/13 hours. I was eating way too much protein and not long enough breaks.
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:33 AM   #147
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Kristin, I had the same problem you describe of struggling with low, low DDs especially when I was low carb. I would have to grit my teeth. Then I began spreading out my meals on DD, having early breakfast at 7 am, late lunch, dinner @ 6 and no matter what my scale was stalling out and I was baffled.
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:48 AM   #148
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Thanks for the thoughts, Sunday. This is all so fascinating.
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Old 01-13-2013, 03:15 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ouizoid View Post
10,2, and 6. DD or UD--an awesome schedule!
That is my plan, except for Sat & Sun. Since I am off, I am making my day short, 6 hours with 18 hours of fast. I notice today that I can't eat all of my cals, so it could be that 6 hours is too short of a period for 1600 cals. I felt pretty stuffed on 1365. I thought about adding tea with some evco, but don't really feel like eating or drinking more cals. Interesting.
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Old 01-13-2013, 03:24 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Joyjoy View Post
I'm curious because I go through periods during which I crave low DDs, and other periods during which I can't bear the thought of a low DD. I wonder whether this depends at all on how close we are to maintenance weight or on how healthy we are generally.
I also wonder whether I'm just horribly undisciplined or whether my body's trying to tell me something.

Total apologies if this has already been covered.
Ps I LOVE bone broth.
He did mention that fasting should never be uncomfortable to the point that you are struggling and went on to say that the nutrients that we eat on day to day basis ensure this. He says to listen to our body. I know you are at or close to your goal weight, right? I would think that you can have much higher DDs.

I am thinking that as long as we have our gut healed with the right nutrition, the 16 hours will be effortless. I don't know about my gut being healed yet, but the 16 - 18 hours has been easier each day.
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