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Old 12-26-2012, 10:02 AM   #91
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I guess the answer to my question would be to find which organic farmers use manure without the antibiotics.
This is what this article said:


While there are restrictions on use of raw manure in U.S. organic farming because of concern over bacteria, no such rules are in place regarding antibiotics or hormones. Not all organic growers use manure with antibiotics, but many do, said Gupta. Even if a product has the USDA organic label, it still might harbor traces of antibiotics. [Correction 1/6/09: FDA was changed to USDA]

High-temperature composting of manure, designed to kill pathogens, is required for crops certified under the USDA organic label. That could eliminate some antibiotics. But others are resistant, according to a study by Dolliver and Kupta published last year. Growers are not required to monitor crops for the drugs.

"Antibiotic uptake by plants may be of particular concern to organic crop producers....To our knowledge, there is no current plan or standardized methodology for monitoring antibiotics in animal manure, which is often obtained from nonorganic farms where antibiotics are commonly used," Dolliver said in the 2007 study.

Added Gupta, “We urgently need to find some way to put guidelines in place on organic food regarding these chemicals."

Gupta said all growers should be told that composting manure can help reduce antibiotics. Composting decays piles of food or manure as microbes decompose organic matter using oxygen to survive, grow and reproduce. Heating up the material creates conditions conducive for bacteria to break down antibiotics and pathogens.
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:54 AM   #92
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Beverly & Cici, I am just now learning/researching about this even though I have eaten majority of my veggies grown organically. I have read that the tubers are the most important veggies to be organic.

Just one more thing to be cautious about.
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:08 AM   #93
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I read the article, dated 2009. Have not had time to search for anything on newer guidelines that might be in place since then.

I think if I were younger, raising children, with the income to pick and choose, I would be more concerned, but am really not in a position to be fussy at the moment. Since I have been unemployed for 11 months, I am just thankful to be eating. Since I am rarely sick (except self-inflicted overindulgence) whatever trace antibiotics are getting through doesn't seem to have any immediate effects.
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Old 12-26-2012, 02:32 PM   #94
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I agree Cici. My hope/plan is to grow a lot of my own veggies. I do go to the local farmer's market and buy quite a bit, but it is expensive when you try and puchase at the grocer. In this case, I would rather take my chances also, rather than do without. I wish that we had a few more options and maybe someday soon we will.
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Old 12-26-2012, 05:19 PM   #95
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I looked on line for organic and grass fed farmers/coops in the area. There is one farm store. It is closed until may. There is one co-op. Prices prohibitive for now. Maybe I can get a job on a farm .
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Old 12-27-2012, 04:55 AM   #96
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Cici, the prices at the grocer make me aggravated to say the least. I haven't bought anything but eggs and veggies from our farm market and the prices there are pretty similar to what I pay for non-organic. Not over the top. Do you have a super Target anywhere near? I have one in my hometown and it is also carrying lots of organics. In any case, some meats are ridiculous cost-wise and that is another reason that PHD appeals to me so much, it is much less protein than paleo and I was beginning to sense that I obsessed too much on meat.

I don't know if you follow the paleo sites/forums, but there are many who do not worry about organics, because they are simply trying to make do within reasonable means. I will update with any info that I stumble on that could point to the evidence that this is not as crucial as we are led to believe.
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Old 12-27-2012, 06:57 AM   #97
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Thanks again, sunday. I have been suffering from food fear for years as one thing after another becomes "dangerous" in the media. I am always interested in the new research but no longer willing to jump on every bandwagon. I suspect most authors are more interested in selling books and much of what we read is the newest gimmick. I just have had enough obsessing. I am ready to give up the craziness. We live in the one place in the world where no one has to be hungry. The foods available may not be as nutritious as what our grandparents ate, but we have more options than anywhere else in the world. So my strategy is to eat as healthily as possible, organic when reasonable, take a multivitamin, avoid the junk, strengthen my immune system and clean out with natural purifiers like diatomaceous earth and anti-inflammatory foods and spices. Strengthen against cancer, diabetes and heart disease with calorie restriction/fasting and NK. These are the things that are in my control. I will continue to follow here to see what results are achieved. Many thanks again for your work researching these concepts.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:27 AM   #98
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I agree that you are making the best decisions for your life. I need to find the DE and begin that as a daily health supp. Also, NO more fear about food. It shouldn't be that way. Really.

Also, one thing to point out about the Jaminets and their book. He is maybe a bit too obsessed with organic and anti-biotic free foods. His obsession has a lot to do with his own personal health issues. He was very sick from long term anti-biotic use when he was diagnosed with an illness requiring anti-biotics. This is one reason that he began searching for ways to cure himself (his gut) and take back control.

Interestingly, I have noticed that since moving to paleo and completely ditching sugar, wheat and processed junk, that I no longer come down w/ bronchitis, the flu, or every virus that comes around. Very simple measures that didn't require eating specifically organic, yet they changed my life!

I work daily with hundreds of college kids and come into close contact with many. I can remember being laid up for a week every winter due to catching everything from the flu to strep to bronchial/respiratory bugs. I have to think that this one small change in my diet may have helped me to build my immune system. I do take a few supps, but I am not a person who likes to supplement. I prefer to eat my nutrition and pray for the right mix to help my longevity.

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Old 12-27-2012, 08:17 AM   #99
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I love the summertime when local veggies are plentiful and inexpensive at the farm stands and farmers' markets! When it isn't, I pay attention to the Dirty Dozen and the Clean Fifteen... I no longer spend the extra money for organic if it is not on the dirty list. I just do without or substitute. For the expensive protein, I buy less expensive cuts of meat (stew meat, hamburger, etc.) and whole chickens at the Winter Farmers Market and just make as many meals as I can out of it. Eggs are a great protein source and canned/pouched salmon are too... and they aren't too expensive.

And truthfully, if I managed my portion sizes better everything would be much cheaper! And lastly, if I cut out things like wine and substituted good quality food for it, that would be the best of all!
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:43 AM   #100
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Judy, As hard as it is for me to admit, I have to abstain from wine for a while. I had quite a bit last week w/ holiday celebration and until I get the whole PHD down, I can not drink a glass per day. I gain and even if it is water weight, I am not going to suffer the day after. I have yet to read his chapter on alcohol, but maybe I should go read that now.
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Old 12-28-2012, 02:51 PM   #101
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Sunday, I am going on a 30 day NO ALCOHOL challenge in January. I did something similar last summer with no drinking at home... but I did have a glass of wine when I was out socializing. Alcohol is so much of my problem... both the calories/carbs and then the "what the heck" attitude with food after a drink or two settles in. Nope, it's best if I totally abstain. I can do it and my body and liver will thank me!!
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:53 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dipgal View Post
Sunday, I am going on a 30 day NO ALCOHOL challenge in January. I did something similar last summer with no drinking at home... but I did have a glass of wine when I was out socializing. Alcohol is so much of my problem... both the calories/carbs and then the "what the heck" attitude with food after a drink or two settles in. Nope, it's best if I totally abstain. I can do it and my body and liver will thank me!!
This is great! I will too! I have three besties that meet up once per week for a wine/marg and I am going to tell them for January and February, I will only meet them for water. It may be just the nudge that I needed, because yes, it does turn into a lax on eating restraints when you have had a glass of wine. Plus, it is calories that are bad for my body and liver. When the liver is not having to clean up toxins then it can go about it's job of keeping the engine running smoothly.

Also, I watched the youtube videos last night on WheatBelly by William Davis, Cardiologist. Oh boy, has he made the wheat industry angry!
Great and in depth explanation on why the wheat we have today is not the wheat we grew up on as children. It will make you mad, but then it all starts making sense. We have more cases of Crohn's and IBS today, than ever in history. My son is constantly battling IBS and I always thought it was linked to allergies, but never considered that it may be just wheat?
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:05 PM   #103
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Good for you Sunday! I also have a couple of wine drinking girlfriends and we meet weekly. Next week ar are doing breakfast instead of lunch..that will help the transition. At home I will make up a pitcher of green or herbal non-sweet tea for cocktail hour. This will be instrumental to my success.

I have read wheat belly and when I am eating healthfully I already avoid all gluten ...it is eye opening to say the least!
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:46 PM   #104
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I have read wheat belly and when I am eating healthfully I already avoid all gluten ...it is eye opening to say the least!
Haven't decided whether to read it, however, I listened to Dr. Davis' youtube videos & I am convinced. When he relays what inflammation does to our heart and other vital organs, I am certain that this is the reason that grains are off limits on most paleo and the PHD plans. I also thought it was revealing to read in PHD about the dental disease that began showing up when our ancestors first discovered eating grains (specifically wheat). I am fascinated with anthropology and the science of looking at the evolutionary history of humans.

From PHD~

Quote:
Most people's diets are deficient in some nutrients, provide an excess of others (often ones that feed pathogens), and are rich in toxins. These dietary errors cause ill health.

Hippocrates was right to declare, "Let food be thy medicine." Given the proper diet, the human body has amazing recuperative powers.

We believe that dietary therapy will work a revolution in medicine. Most of the chronic and degenerative diseases that afflict modern society cannot be cured until the diet is fixed. Much of what people consider "aging" is, in fact, infectuous disease aggravated by a bad diet. Yet when the diet is healthful, the immune system may spontaneously defeat many diseases and antibiotic drugs may work wonders.
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:25 PM   #105
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Just dropping in to say, that I am eating PHD daily now and love it. I have yet to finish the book, but the only thing that I am not thrilled about is dropping the beans. I think I can live with the rest, but the thought of not ever having black eye peas or black beans is really bothering me. I would love to hear from others who have overcome this.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:13 PM   #106
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That's funny Sunday... to me it's one of the easiest things to live without. How and why did you eat beans frequently? In salads, soups?? Sure, I like a good bean soup with ham every once in awhile... or refried beans in a Mexican restaurant or black bean soup from time to time.. but other than that it's never been a staple in my diet. My hardest part is adding rice and potato when I am eating healthfully.. Still can't get my head around it. I'll have to reread that section!
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:27 PM   #107
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I think it is because I am from the south and we our blackeye peas.

Actually, I made Hoppin John for New Year's and it is such a wonderful treat. I think of it as comfort food. Oh, I am loving the taters and have not had rice yet. I don't know yet if I will eat black beans or peas on regular basis. It is probably going to be a once in a while treat. The "no beans" and limited dairy may be the only rules that I have to bend sporadically.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:32 PM   #108
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And do we have any answers to the 16 hour fast thing, ie with Juddd, we're effectively fasting (or we say we are) for 36 hours, which is way beyond what Jaminet says is ideal. Now he could be off, or it could be that with JUDDD we're doing calorie cycling but not really fasting, or....:dunno:

I'm interested because I experienced some muscle loss as I hovered around maintenance with JUDDDing. Also hair loss and yucky skin. I'd love to figure out whether that was a micronutrient split problem (that may be corrected with PHD) or whether the 36 hour "fast" was too long, or....

At this point I'm at a higher weight than I like but my hair and skin are better. I'd like to whittle back down with my best guess at approach.

Thanks for everything. Fantastic stuff.
Woohoo! I think I finally have our answer Kristin!

I have been waiting for him to answer me on his blog and I think I must have lost his response or it vaporized in junkmail??? Because I never received the message back? Anyway, I started digging around on his site and in the book and this is what I have gleaned.

I wish I could say that I am finished but I have jumped around a bit and then started taking notes/highlighting, thus making my reading a bit longer. It would help if I had DL'd the book so that I could cut & paste, so I am going to give the best quotes and leave out all of his highly technical research that I don't quite understand.

Yes! Jaminet recommends 16 hr fasting w/ 8 hour window. However, his belief is that the period of autophagy needs not be more than 16 hours. He truly believes that we will receive the optimal benefit to try and keep it at a true fast from dinner until breakfast. Now, he does address that some IF'ers prefer to do longer fasts but it is not necessary, as well as not advantageous.

From his book~

Quote:
Autophagy principally serves an adaptive role to protect organisms against diverse pathologies, including infections, cancer, neurodegeneration, aging, and heart disease. Since the body consumes 500 to 600 glucose cals per day, liver glycogen stores become low about 12 to 16 hrs into a fast. This suggests that 16 hr fast is sufficiently long to trigger autophagy.

Long fasts do not upregulate autophagy more than short fasts do. In mice, autophagy peaks within the first 24 hours of a fast then drops back to normal levels within 48 hrs of fasting, cells become depleted of proteins and continued high levels of autophagy would impair cellular function.
And

Quote:
Although long fasts do not upregulate autophagy, they do lead to a more exaggerated drop in autophagy upon resumption of feeding. A study of famine victims who had lost 25 percent of body weight during a famine and then were given unlimited food found that only 4.9 percent had detectable infections when refeeding began, but 29.1 percent had overt infections two weeks later. The infections that flared up were all intracellular infections--the kind that are fought by autophagy.

Severe undernutrition can suppress certain infections, mostly done due to intracellular pathogens. Refeeding reactivates suppressed infection and can increase vulnerability to certain new infections especially of viral origin.

There is another argument for fasts that are shorter than 24 hours. Autophagy follows a strong diurnal rhythm and my be coordinated with the circadian clock. Disruption of the circadian clock leads to impaired immunity, faster aging, and shortened life span. As well as high rates of disease such as osteoporosis, sarcopenia, cataracts, neurodegenerative disease, and cancer. A review of links between autophagy & circadian rhythms concludes: "Diurnal rhythms of autophagy may be required to prevent neurodegenerative and metabolic disease, DNA damage and accelerated aging."

Fasting then, should maintain a normal diurnal rhythm: a long overnight fast followed by daily feeding.
I don't want to post the whole chapter, but he goes on to say that food choices can also influence the rate of autophagy and that reduced protein intake promotes lysosomal autophagy which kills bacteria & viruses. Also ketosis which is induced by eating MCT/coconut oil also promotes autophagy. This is the reason that ketogenic diets have excellent results in easing alzheimers & various neurodegenerative disease. He says coffee/tea may make a fast more comfortable adding MCT oil to promote the ketosis and avoid hunger.

I think I am going to continue the 8 hour window and remain full fast for 16... eat/drink nothing after dinner until late morn approx 10. I have never snacked although I occasionally had a glass of wine late, I guess I will nix the wine unless with my dinner.

Did I just confuse everyone more???

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Old 01-07-2013, 04:40 PM   #109
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Judy, This will give me more reason to abstain from meeting my besties once per week for a wine.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:43 PM   #110
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I have to run, but will remember to come back and post info from this chapter as to why "overfeeding shortens life span" and "when to avoid fasting". As well as his reason to support the frequent daily fasting.
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:04 PM   #111
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This is a very interesting discussion.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:32 PM   #112
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I wished that I had waited to post the above until I read his cliff notes summarizing his beliefs.

Summary

Quote:
Fasting is an effective way to enhance immunity against intracellular pathogens. But fasts should be short. Less than 24 hours. It is better to fast frequently but briefly. Long fasts actually promote infections by suppressing autophagy during the refeeding period. Long fasts may also interfere with circadium rhythm, which then hastens aging.

We believe 16 hours is optimal for fasts. This is short enough that it is possible to repeat the fast daily, but long enough to induce elevated levels of autophagy. In animals, daily fasting for 16 hours w/ 8 hour feeding window delivers significant health benefits.

Interestingly, populations that eat the Mediterranean diet, which found it to be extremely healthy, were done mostly in populations of Orthodox Christians, who frequently fasted: it was probably the fasting in combo with the diet that accounted for their results.

Another population that fasts daily is the Kitavans, who are noted for their absence of disease. An ethnographic atlas describes their dietary practice.
The main and only cooked meal is at sunset, after gardening has been
completed, and generally consists of yams, taro, and occasionally fish,
wild fowl, pork, or sea fowl eggs. During the day, mangoes, breadfruit,
bananas & green coconuts and their milk may be eaten while working.

As the Kitavan practice suggests, it's quite reasonable to snack during a fast. (sans protein) The benefits of fasting are greatest from routine short fasts, not from arduous self-denial.

Overfeeding Shortens Life Span

If fasting is good, its opposite, overfeeding or regular feeding, will negate the benefits.

In critically ill patients in hospitals, regular feeding combined w/ lack of exercise leads to a reduction in autophagy. In one study, critically ill hospital patients had a 62 percent reduction in autophagic vacuoles and proteins normally degraded by autophagy reached up to 97 times normal concentrations. Lack of autophagy was associated w/ organ failure in these patients.

Size & strength athletes, who overfeed for muscle gain, offer another case in point: They exercise and are healthy, yet their life spans are shortened by overfeeding. The avg age of death among NFL players is less than 60 years, and each year in the NFL takes 3 years off a player's life span. Life span is shortest for the largest, strongest men -- the linemen.

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Old 01-07-2013, 08:14 PM   #113
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Well, the more I learn the more I feel an urgency to get this right. I am going to write Jaminet again, but this time ask specifically about JUDDD and the 300 cal DD.

For example, I notice during maintenance I didn't gain, yet I raised my DD to 700 or a bit more. I even spent a week of several UD in a row and did not gain. I suppose that Dr. Jaminet's findings support that as long as you remain in the 8 hour or less window, you are covered? Which explains the reason that some do very well with Fast 5 or even MUDDD? I also recall that the days that I did 500 cal and even more up to 700 were not an issue as long as I ate within the window. It is when I spread the eating out on DD from 9:00 am until 8:00 pm that this began to cause stalls and general blah feeling.

It sounds like to me that the Juddd budds who eat nothing all day and then only allow themselves 300 cals could be adding too much strain on the beneficial results of fasting?

Although I am enjoying PHD, it is so in depth and comprehensive embracing much more than nutrition/diet, but also overall health, that for the first time in a while, I am having to re-read and highlight or I am going to fail.

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Old 01-08-2013, 06:04 AM   #114
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Sunday, stop using the "f" word - fail! There is no fail unless you give up for the rest of your life!... This is all an experiment and it doesn't have to be 100%. Take a deep breath and focus on one thing at a time and see how you feel. Don't make yourself crazy!

I downloaded the book by Jenny Ruhl - Diet 101 - The Truth About LC Diets yesterday. From reading around the LC community she really puts it into an easy to read and understand format. She talks a lot about experimentation with amounts of carbs our bodies can handle. I've read two chapters. I think that once I understand the concept better (I"ve read many books on the subject) I'll be able to understand why I MAY be able to add in some safe starches.

I do want to incorporate the 8/16... now, most days I am doing more like 9.5/14.5.

Have a good day!

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Old 01-08-2013, 06:16 AM   #115
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Thanks Judy. I guess I should have used another word, , you are right I feel like a winner learning and grasping all of this info. I knew that I was eating too much protein, but I couldn't quite get the balance right? So, my DD from here on out will have very little protein, but lots of taters and good veggies plus some fat.

Thanks to this post from E.W. and Lynn's quote on the Benefits thread as well, this explains the protein fasting much better.
http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.co...ermittent.html

I guess my stubborness in refusing to believe that the protein needed to be so much less, may have hindered my grasping the whole concept that Jaminet explains in his book. Thanks to Kristin for helping guide me this way as well!!!

Last edited by sunday; 01-08-2013 at 06:17 AM..
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:15 AM   #116
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WOE: Perfect Health Diet- 16hr Daily Fast
Start Date: JUDDD - 2/01/12 Began at 200, Goal 130
Judy, I will have to look into the Diet 101 book as well. Please come back and let me know your findings. Very interesting.

Hope your day is great too!
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Old 01-08-2013, 08:13 AM   #117
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Sunday, I am following what you post with great interest. I did so well on JUDDD for the first six months and after that, just maintained. I am trying to experiment and figure things out. Would you mind posting what an average up day and average down day menu looks like for you? It may help me understand better. If you wouldn't mind.... TIA
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Old 01-08-2013, 09:24 AM   #118
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WOE: Perfect Health Diet- 16hr Daily Fast
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Yes Bev! I will be right back to post a few menus. I am already noticing my DD isn't so painful. Thanks to french onion soup w/ a 1/2 mashed tater. I have never done Atkins, so except for the hcg protocol, my plan has always been paleo w/ lots of protein, minimal veggies and good fats. I am just switching the ratio of carbs to protein, adding nutritious fiber filled carbs.

BRB!
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:58 PM   #119
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Reading with interest. I know that I do better with some good starches, but am wondering if I might do better with low protein on UD and 500 cals of protein on DD. Would it matter which day is lower protein if between the 2 days the ratios are right? Puzzling
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Old 01-08-2013, 06:49 PM   #120
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WOE: Perfect Health Diet- 16hr Daily Fast
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I had a lot of work mid day that has kept me from being able to get back to this.

I am writing Dr. Jaminet right now to get clarification on the amount of protein fasting. Lynn may know because she alerted me to this, as I understand, it isn't necessary to be every other day although at least once or twice per week. Since we have 3 dd & 4 ud weekly, it makes sense that even doing this twice would be excellent. And, we are already cutting back on protein with PHD as the ratios allow. Jaminet suggests in PHD 1/2 to 1 lb of meat per day.

I noticed while on potato hack, that my hunger even on days of 500 or less was very doable. Today, I had about 400 cals in potatoes/broth and really do not feel that sense of urgency to eat. I do find it interesting that he mentions that if we are hungry in this period that we can have coconut oil in our tea or broth to tame the hunger. Of course, I will not drink CO this evening, but when I awake at 5:30 am, I will most likely add a tbsp to help me make it to 10.

I thought of you Marie, because during tax season, you may be able to have more cals on DD as long as you remain in a window. Would that help out with the stress?

The one thing that I believe, and will test, is that as long as we fast 16 hours daily, this may meet the requirement of protein free fasting. For instance, my 1st meal was at 10:30 and last meal at 5:30. I will not eat again until tomo at 10:00 am, which will make a total of 16 hours sans protein.
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