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Old 02-20-2013, 03:08 PM   #991
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Patty, He uses tapioca flour and rice bran flour. He has several foodie PHD bloggers that he recommends that I have been following and love. I have even marked a few things to bake like the chocolate covered coconut cookies, peach cobbler and chocolate cheesecake brownies.

On weight gain, I think you may need to give it a little bit of time. Especially if you were normally rotating JUDDD style. I think that may be why I had such a big gain after my valentine's dinner smorgasboard. I believe my body was used to me fasting for 36 hours and then switched to eating every day and fasting only 16 hours. If you think about it, that is one heck of a change. Although, I still sort of restrict EOD, my DD is no longer 300 cals.

The blogs that I think are wonderful are~

The Daily Avocado
Nourishing Kitchen
Food Renegade
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:10 PM   #992
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Also, I noticed some of them use coconut flour mixed with tapioca/potato flour.
One uses Einkorn flour? I had never heard of this?
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:37 PM   #993
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueSojourn View Post
And here's the mention about the coconut oil:
Awesome Blue. Thanks. And your method is easier than mine. And easy is good!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by divinemsm54 View Post
Beverly, right there with you on the white devil (sugar!) trigger--I was just in Trader Joe's today and snapped up a sugar free dark chocolate bar (called Simply Lite) they had at the check-out, sweetened with maltitol, haven't tried it yet but having high hopes! It's not super dark chocolate, though...I also saw a stevia sweetened brand at my local Thriftway but too pricey for my blood, 5 bucks for 3 ounces.

I just got the PHD book but am skipping to the cliff notes by asking you guys: what's their stance on baking with gluten replacements like coconut flour or rice flour? I've been PHDing and not losing, even gained a couple, and I suspect I may have to dump my little gf treats, sigh...

--patty
Alas, I cannot eat maltitol. It is like prepping for a colonoscopy if you know what I mean. I hope you like it and it likes you. I've been melting down a 85% or higher bar and adding my own sweetener and nuts, but even the 85% can set off cravings.

I've been baking a white bread that is gluten free that uses rice flour and tapioca flour and it is very good. I am with you on dumping some of the actual treats however. I have been eating them and even though gluten free and sugar free, they aren't calorie free!!

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Old 02-20-2013, 03:57 PM   #994
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Also, I noticed some of them use coconut flour mixed with tapioca/potato flour.
One uses Einkorn flour? I had never heard of this?

einkorn is wheat. It is the original old timey ancient wheat before we did any of this fancy modification crap. I have made einkorn pasta before. Very chewy. I just don't do any wheat at all, so have been avoiding.
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Old 02-20-2013, 04:25 PM   #995
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Here's my favourite PHD story of the day. More accurately, it may be a LC-not-mucked-with-by-the-addition-of-potatoes story, although I feel that the added nutrition of BB and the shifting of macros may play a role. Same with the 16 hour fast. (Okay, I guess that makes it a PHD story.)
This morning, after a 40 minute walk on hilly trails with the dog, I did a 90 minute skate ski. Skate skiing is the crazy dervish of all aerobic activities.
It wasn't till I got home that I realized I hadn't had breakfast yet!
This is wild. I used to wear myself out organizing snacks and the timing of eating so that I wouldn't bonk during long bouts of activity, and I still crashed more often than felt reasonable. And it would have been standard to blow off the rest of the day after a ski like that. Today, I feel pleasantly relaxed and well used, but that's it.
It's astounding to watch something like this change in your life.
This, at 51 years old and mid-menopause.
So grateful.
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Old 02-20-2013, 04:25 PM   #996
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Originally Posted by sunday View Post
Also, I noticed some of them use coconut flour mixed with tapioca/potato flour.
One uses Einkorn flour? I had never heard of this?
Tropical Traditions has it. You can look over there. Dr Davis mentions this extensively in his book "Wheat Belly".
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Old 02-20-2013, 04:57 PM   #997
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Originally Posted by divinemsm54 View Post

I just got the PHD book but am skipping to the cliff notes by asking you guys: what's their stance on baking with gluten replacements like coconut flour or rice flour? I've been PHDing and not losing, even gained a couple, and I suspect I may have to dump my little gf treats, sigh...

--patty
Patty,

I found the part I saw in PHD about baking and thought I would quote it here.


The Place of Baked Goods in the PHD

Our PHD Food Plate has a section for “Pleasure Foods.” It occupies the stem and leaves of our yinyang apple, indicating that these should be relatively small parts of the diet.

Baked goods are not mentioned, but it would be appropriate to list “Gluten-free baked goods and fructose-free sweets” among the Pleasure Foods.

These foods are made of PHD-compliant ingredients – rice flour, potato starch, and tapioca starch in the case of baked goods – but they have a few defects:

- Low nutrient density. As a purified macronutrient, gluten-free flour is unaccompanied by micronutrients.
- Low water content. Whole food starches, like white rice and white potatoes, typically have less than 500 calories per pound due to a high water content. But flours and foods made from them, like noodles and pizza dough and bread, lack water and provide 1300-1500 calories per pound.

The lack of water is potentially a problem because water is crucial to digestion, especially digestion of proteins. In the stomach, food needs to be dissolved in an acidic water bath in order for protein-digesting enzymes like pepsin to work properly. Dry foods are just not digested well.

Flour-based foods may be problematic for more reasons than their lack of water. Last year, Ian Spreadbury proposed that “acellular carbohydrates” – carbohydrates that are not surrounded by cell walls and embedded within a cytoplasm – may be unhealthy because the carbs can feed bacteria in the upper digestive tract which can then infect important organs like the pancreas, gallbladder, liver, and small intestine. Cellular carbohydrates would be digested lower in the intestine, helping to maintain an antiseptic and healthy upper small intestine.

We included gluten-free spaghetti and lasagna as items in the meal plan template of our book, but only on one day per week, and only in combination with sauces that provide water.

Due to their dryness, baked goods are probably best eaten as desserts – in combination with fat and liquids, but not much with protein, as they may interfere with protein digestion.

This means they are not good for a weight loss diet, but are excellent foods for those who naturally eat a low protein, high-carb-and-fat diet: children!

Baked goods are kiddie foods. Children eat a lot of calories per unit body weight, so they generally aren’t going to be malnourished; a certain amount of empty calories is just fine. And children’s diets should be lower in protein (7% protein at infancy, rising gradually to 15-20% protein in adulthood) and higher in carbohydrate (40% carb at infancy, decreasing to 20-30% carb in adulthood) than adult diets. That means less meat and more dessert type foods for the kids.


quote from Jaminet

He also responded to a question about the baked goods raising blood glucose levels and said ...

Using lots of butter on the muffins helps prevent high blood glucose afterward.

Nut flours I think are OK in moderation.



This was also asked:


Hi, Paul -

So for those who just HAVE to have their baked goods (like my wife), can the lack of water in the flour be offset simply by drinking more while consuming the treats? If you properly hydrate during the meal with the baked goods, will that provide sufficient water for proper digestion?

Thanks!

Jim

Reply

Paul Jaminet January 7, 2013 at 7:57 am

Hi Jim,

Yes, I think having a drink along with the muffins will help.


On coconut flour

Paul Jaminet January 22, 2013 at 2:53 pm

Hi Peg,

Coconut flour is fine to use, but it is a very different food — not many carbs, lots of fiber.



I need to rethink how I have been approaching this. I still need to lose.Maybe once I reach goal. ..

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Old 02-20-2013, 04:58 PM   #998
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joyjoy View Post
Here's my favourite PHD story of the day. More accurately, it may be a LC-not-mucked-with-by-the-addition-of-potatoes story, although I feel that the added nutrition of BB and the shifting of macros may play a role. Same with the 16 hour fast. (Okay, I guess that makes it a PHD story.)
This morning, after a 40 minute walk on hilly trails with the dog, I did a 90 minute skate ski. Skate skiing is the crazy dervish of all aerobic activities.
It wasn't till I got home that I realized I hadn't had breakfast yet!
This is wild. I used to wear myself out organizing snacks and the timing of eating so that I wouldn't bonk during long bouts of activity, and I still crashed more often than felt reasonable. And it would have been standard to blow off the rest of the day after a ski like that. Today, I feel pleasantly relaxed and well used, but that's it.
It's astounding to watch something like this change in your life.
This, at 51 years old and mid-menopause.
So grateful.

Wowza!
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:16 PM   #999
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Originally Posted by sunday View Post
Also, I noticed some of them use coconut flour mixed with tapioca/potato flour.
One uses Einkorn flour? I had never heard of this?
On the Einkorn, this is what I copied in my notes about it.

Paul, Everything you say in both books makes a lot of sense and that is what draws me to your work. I know you lean towards agreeing with most of what Weston Price/Sally Fallon have said in their books and you were even a guest at one of the WP conferences. I have read a LOT your blog posts as well as own both books now, but never really saw what your stance was with wheat if if is sprouted as suggested in Nourishing Traditions or if we use Einkorn wheat, which is a bit pricy but I noticed when I bake with it or buy Einkorn pasta I don’t get that tired feeling afterwards as I use to with modern wheat. I’d love to hear your thoughts…


Paul Jaminet January 8, 2013 at 3:00 pm

Hi Mike,

Those forms of wheat are less bad but they still have some wheat toxins. I feel that as we recommend only 30% carbs and a fair number of safe starches which are available as gluten-free products of various kinds, it’s not necessary to eat the wheat products. But our general philosophy, we provide the reasons and evidence behind our recommendations so that you can form your own risk/reward judgments
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:31 PM   #1000
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Oh my! So much activity here and I am hopelessly behind as usual, but still reading!

Just wanted to pop in to say that Jaminet says in a few places (including the Ben Greenfield Feb 2013 podcast I listened to today) that he feels around 1300 calories is about as low as one can go and still receive optimal nutrition.

But surely everyone differs, as we know. Hope to add a more substantial post soon.
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:43 PM   #1001
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Kristin, Wonderful! This is exactly what some of the PHDers who are runners are saying about the fasted state of aerobics and PHD nutrition!!! I am thrilled for you.

I hate to admit that while doing JUDDD, I would wake up and instantly be thinking about my next meal. It didn't matter whether I was hungry, it almost seemed like I was in a constant state of worry. I had to jump on the pc and log, plan and know that I was going to either get all of my cals in or the opposite-- stay below DD number. There is such a calm in waking up and it doesn't matter whether or not you are eating too much or too little. And the great thing is, I feel great!
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:47 PM   #1002
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Joyce, I remember reading this and wondered about it. I will eventually work up to that number. I just need a bit more time.
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:49 PM   #1003
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I think I will stick with half tapioca and half coconut. Coconut is very drying, so you really have to make sure you have the right amount of moisture.
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:51 PM   #1004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawnyama View Post
Tropical Traditions has it. You can look over there. Dr Davis mentions this extensively in his book "Wheat Belly".
I love the coconut flour, but feel like it makes a drier muffin. I will do more research on ways to mix it with the tapioca.
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:53 PM   #1005
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And Kristin, YOU are another one that doesn't look a day over 40!!! So very youthful looking! I hope the broth and kombucha will do the same for me.
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:24 PM   #1006
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I love the coconut flour, but feel like it makes a drier muffin. I will do more research on ways to mix it with the tapioca.
I meant that they have the Einkorn

but they have the coconut flour too
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:24 PM   #1007
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Sunday, thanks. Keep in mind it's a headshot. Someone was paid to make me look good that day. You might not recognize me in snow pants and hat head.

You know, the only thing I still want from PHD is for my weight to drop through a reduction in appetite. (I don't know what I weigh anymore but it's more than I did weigh at my lowest with juddd.)
I'm hoping that by nourishing myself fully, this'll happen naturally and gently, because I don't want to go back to the big chunk of energy required to measure, weigh, etc.
I guess I'll just focus on feeding myself well, fasting where it feels comfortable (16 hours does), and observe.
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:41 PM   #1008
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Kristin, I agree. Observe. Do you think the weight gain could be coming off of JUDDD and transitioning to the 16 hour? I think that may have been what my V-day gain is. Because I have slowly been letting go of the 36 hours.

I think PHD is my resting place and keeping fingers crossed my weight goes with time.

Dawn, So Dr. Davis recommends the Einkorn? Just curious.
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:50 PM   #1009
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Patty, He uses tapioca flour and rice bran flour. He has several foodie PHD bloggers that he recommends that I have been following and love. I have even marked a few things to bake like the chocolate covered coconut cookies, peach cobbler and chocolate cheesecake brownies.

On weight gain, I think you may need to give it a little bit of time. Especially if you were normally rotating JUDDD style. I think that may be why I had such a big gain after my valentine's dinner smorgasboard. I believe my body was used to me fasting for 36 hours and then switched to eating every day and fasting only 16 hours. If you think about it, that is one heck of a change. Although, I still sort of restrict EOD, my DD is no longer 300 cals.

The blogs that I think are wonderful are~

The Daily Avocado
Nourishing Kitchen
Food Renegade
Tummy Rumblr
Oh thank you Sunday, Sungoddess (basking in the sun like the goddess you clearly are!) et. al. for the as always complete, well-thought and resourced responses! I think I may have to minimize/eliminate even the pleasure foods to move the scale.

The scale jump is in spite of the fact I'm still doing rotations and averaging 1200 cals/day, just eating PHD foods on both up and down days. I'm getting severely frustrated and am even considering Hcg, which I've always shunned as too extreme. But my epic 2 year stall is continuing to refuse to let me budge solidly downward, and defending my current 180-ish as if I will actually die if I lose any more. I would like to sit my metabolism down and crunch the numbers, explain how I am more than 60 pounds away from even the remotest possibility of starving...but it just won't show up to the negotiation table, sigh....

yours in perimenopausal persecution,
--patty
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:52 PM   #1010
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Originally Posted by Joyjoy View Post
Here's my favourite PHD story of the day. More accurately, it may be a LC-not-mucked-with-by-the-addition-of-potatoes story, although I feel that the added nutrition of BB and the shifting of macros may play a role. Same with the 16 hour fast. (Okay, I guess that makes it a PHD story.)
This morning, after a 40 minute walk on hilly trails with the dog, I did a 90 minute skate ski. Skate skiing is the crazy dervish of all aerobic activities.
It wasn't till I got home that I realized I hadn't had breakfast yet!
This is wild. I used to wear myself out organizing snacks and the timing of eating so that I wouldn't bonk during long bouts of activity, and I still crashed more often than felt reasonable. And it would have been standard to blow off the rest of the day after a ski like that. Today, I feel pleasantly relaxed and well used, but that's it.
It's astounding to watch something like this change in your life.
This, at 51 years old and mid-menopause.
So grateful.
Sounds like a great day! Very interesting observations. I used to have all these complicated ideas on "fuelling" for my activities and I am amazed at how much things have changed for me as well. I am glad you shared your observations as I have been thinking about this as well. I have fallen away from the alternate day fasting now and seem to fast when it feels like fast time. Fasted workouts feel heathy at times. I wonder if it is an improved awareness of true hunger? Better nutrition?
I also wanted to thank everyone for talking about the bone broth! It is very good! I was a little worried when I smelled it cooking but it tastes fantastic.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:18 PM   #1011
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Oh thank you Sunday, Sungoddess (basking in the sun like the goddess you clearly are!) et. al. for the as always complete, well-thought and resourced responses! I think I may have to minimize/eliminate even the pleasure foods to move the scale.

The scale jump is in spite of the fact I'm still doing rotations and averaging 1200 cals/day, just eating PHD foods on both up and down days. I'm getting severely frustrated and am even considering Hcg, which I've always shunned as too extreme. But my epic 2 year stall is continuing to refuse to let me budge solidly downward, and defending my current 180-ish as if I will actually die if I lose any more. I would like to sit my metabolism down and crunch the numbers, explain how I am more than 60 pounds away from even the remotest possibility of starving...but it just won't show up to the negotiation table, sigh....

yours in perimenopausal persecution,
--patty
Patty,
I don't even know where to begin with this thought, and I might not even try if it weren't you, but here goes:
I think our fat identity is just that, an identity. Ego. Mind. Whatever you want to call it. Nothing to do with who we really are.
I think most of our dieting attempts are just other identities that we breathe life into, hoping they'll be stronger than our fat identities. Hence the enthusiasm devoted to research, the cheering sections, etc.
It's still identity vs identity, which is a losing proposition. For many of us, it continues to build push/pull resistance that manifests as bodies that will not budge.
It's funny. Often there's a honeymoon, right? The diet feels like freedom. We lose weight.
Then resistance builds again and we stall. And we look for another diet, aka another path to freedom.
I suspect we're never free till we lose the identities altogether. Until we pay more attention to who we really are than to the whacked ego stuff (weight included).
And I hope that when we remember who we really are, that what we eat becomes obvious and natural.

My two metaphysical cents. They probably don't belong here, but I'm always wondering about this and your comments, coming from you, made me wonder again.
Back to our regular programming.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:33 PM   #1012
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Love you Kristin. beautifully said and more than true.
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:56 PM   #1013
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Patty,
I don't even know where to begin with this thought, and I might not even try if it weren't you, but here goes:
I think our fat identity is just that, an identity. Ego. Mind. Whatever you want to call it. Nothing to do with who we really are.
I think most of our dieting attempts are just other identities that we breathe life into, hoping they'll be stronger than our fat identities. Hence the enthusiasm devoted to research, the cheering sections, etc.
It's still identity vs identity, which is a losing proposition. For many of us, it continues to build push/pull resistance that manifests as bodies that will not budge.
It's funny. Often there's a honeymoon, right? The diet feels like freedom. We lose weight.
Then resistance builds again and we stall. And we look for another diet, aka another path to freedom.
I suspect we're never free till we lose the identities altogether. Until we pay more attention to who we really are than to the whacked ego stuff (weight included).
And I hope that when we remember who we really are, that what we eat becomes obvious and natural.

My two metaphysical cents. They probably don't belong here, but I'm always wondering about this and your comments, coming from you, made me wonder again.
Back to our regular programming.
Excellent 2 cents my dear. But I've not identified myself in those kinds of terms since my late 20s, thank god. My one and only goal in setting out on this journey is to remove pressure from my knees after the onset of horrific arthritis. I do realize I'm in the minority in not coming to losing weight from a place of self-dislike/non-acceptance, but purely a mechanical problem to be addressed. My identity is intact and positive to the point of lunatic self-delusion (think "American Idol" auditions, tee hee) and really isn't a factor. Unless of course I have a hidden identity and multiple personalities, I am after all a Gemini!

But lovely thoughts, nonetheless and I'm certain-sure will be scooped up by just exactly who needs them...
hugs,
patty
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Old 02-20-2013, 07:58 PM   #1014
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OH! I really like that Kristin. Very good food for thought. We all need this to sink in. THANK YOU!!!

Patty, I think we are in for the best surprise of our lives with this method of perfect health & nutrition. I really do.
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:09 PM   #1015
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Patty, I am still struggling with the menopausal issues and believe it is very much an issue with my weight. I seriously considered the idea of doing a round of Hcg because it did work for me when I was pre-meno (08). I am wanting to eat PHD for a while and see how I do with the 16 hour fast. And I am looking at getting help with my hypothyroidism and possibly bio-identicals. I may be asking too much for myself right now.

My daughter, who has about 25 lbs to lose from her last baby is doing a round right now of the Nasal Spray Hcg. She said that it is amazing as far as "no hunger", but not sure how much she has lost this far. I have mixed feelings about her decision to do this, because I worry about her getting the dreaded migraines during PMS.
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:10 PM   #1016
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I love the coconut flour, but feel like it makes a drier muffin. I will do more research on ways to mix it with the tapioca.
My current flour bin is 1/4 almond, 1/4 hazelnut, 1/4 golden flax, 1/4 coconut and it performs pretty well texture wise. Dry/wet balance is important in all baking of course. I'm paranoid about powder and liquid carbohydrate so I keep my baking pretty LC, other than added fruit.

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So Dr. Davis recommends the Einkorn? Just curious.
Not exactly, I think he baked some and found that it didn't make him bloated/inflamed as part of an illustration of how wheat has changed but his overall recommendations are zero grain.
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:14 PM   #1017
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Patty- I don't have any advise or ideas but I wanted to let you know I support you and hope you find a path to help those knees!
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:22 PM   #1018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunday View Post
Patty, I am still struggling with the menopausal issues and believe it is very much an issue with my weight. I seriously considered the idea of doing a round of Hcg because it did work for me when I was pre-meno (08). I am wanting to eat PHD for a while and see how I do with the 16 hour fast. And I am looking at getting help with my hypothyroidism and possibly bio-identicals. I may be asking too much for myself right now.

My daughter, who has about 25 lbs to lose from her last baby is doing a round right now of the Nasal Spray Hcg. She said that it is amazing as far as "no hunger", but not sure how much she has lost this far. I have mixed feelings about her decision to do this, because I worry about her getting the dreaded migraines during PMS.
I hear you Sunday, especially about "asking too much", I do need to keep reminding myself my poor beleaguered body has released a small child's worth of weight and kept it off, despite physical challenges up the wazoo and now hormone hell. I wish the 16/8 worked for me, but it really didn't, I hope it does wonders for you. I also hear those bio-identicals are the best thing since sliced (gluten-free, of course!) bread, so I have high hopes for you with those. Your poor daughter, I only ever had one migraine after a car accident, how awful if she has to dodge those bullets every month. Thanks for the support, as always...
--patty
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:24 PM   #1019
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I wish all these other flours were more readily available, at a reasonable price.
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:24 PM   #1020
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Patty- I don't have any advise or ideas but I wanted to let you know I support you and hope you find a path to help those knees!
Thank you Babs, me and my bee's knees appreciate it, mwah!
--patty
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