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Old 02-06-2013, 05:12 AM   #631
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double post.

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Old 02-06-2013, 05:40 AM   #632
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Mmm. Green smoothy. Even threw in som DE. It hid well.
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Old 02-06-2013, 05:43 AM   #633
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Sven, I don't know if you were thinking about combining JUDDD/16:8? The "zero protein" only applies to 16 hour fast, which is what Bev and I are doing daily.

Since you are JUDDD you are fasting on DD simply by staying under 500 cals. Right? It isn't necessary to add the daily fast unless you are just wanting to try it out.

I am transitioning to simply 16:8 and JUDDD will only be brought back into the picture, if I see my weight go the wrong direction. Hopefully I haven't confused any who are simply fasting in JUDDD fashion. Even Jaminet only fasts for 2 days per week. I am guessing because he is at his normal weight and does the fasting purely for the autophagy and health benefits.
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Old 02-06-2013, 05:46 AM   #634
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Originally Posted by cici52 View Post
Mmm. Green smoothy. Even threw in som DE. It hid well.
I am in with this and notice so many good variations on different health blogs. On the "Daily Avocado" she adds a bit of avocado and banana. I am thinking on trying this out too.
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Old 02-06-2013, 05:50 AM   #635
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I think (and I have not gotten that far in the book) he is saying eat while the sun shines. If sunset is at 06:00 PM, your fast should run 06:01 PM - 10:01 AM. Unless something unusually stressful is going on, I have no trouble falling asleep - in fact, I get exhausted soon after sunset. I am, however, usually up hours before the sun. Gosh, I am looking forward to reading that chapter!

So, I fat fast through the morning. This week I tried adding protein (turkey breast cooked on, yes, Sunday) to my lunch bone broth. Meaning I start addressing my carb deficit between 12 and 1. And, dang it, appetite suppression is still so strong (who would have ever thought I would say that ).

Dang, I need to expand my eating window that much???? How the heck do I do that when, like Kristen, I find so little food satisfies me and I tend to forget to eat??? Oh well, back the book...and pack a salad for today's lunch.

Sunday, the first time I tried the potato hack my bg jumped to 145 and I had a huge, nasty sugar spike/crash reaction. Even though I ate fat and protein when I realized what was happening, I was so sick I had to cancel an appointment. Sneaking up on potatoes (now we watch as our intrepid explorer sneaks quietly through the candy-coated underbrush, stalking her prey: the elusive potato!) gradually, eating them with a bit of butter on the second and third tries, I watched my bg spikes drop lower and lower. I can now eat them naked with steady, normal bg.

Yes, being able to test bg has helped me figure out and tune what is happening inside me.
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:02 AM   #636
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As always you have this correct Nancy! I am the one who keeps forgetting what I am doing!

I have JUDDD so long that my body naturally likes the rhythm and so it is still with me (sort of). It just seems like each day I am loving the 16 hour. I eat from 10-5 with 2 meals, somtimes only one! It is impossible for me to eat up to 1600 unless, I happen to go out for dinner. I would venture to guess that my cals are staying around 1300-1500 and 400-700 on alternate days. I don't get why this is so hard for me to just let go of the DD? I think I like it too much.

I notice Kissa and Dawn said that when they switched to 5:2, that it felt like they were cheating on their ND. Mentally, this is playing with my mind in same way, I feel like I should restrict alternate days and yet, I really am not hungry?
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:56 AM   #637
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After reading the last two pages here, in a word? Fascinating!

I like the way you talk.....
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:21 AM   #638
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:32 AM   #639
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Originally Posted by gotsomeold View Post
svenskamae, hwc in my coffee has always been my #1 food preference (even over caramel with sea salt). I measure small amounts, but I start every day with some.

For several years I got sick eating coconut oil, a reaction I developed after eating it for years. Bone broth or something in this WOE has healed that...which is great because I believe in the MCTs and other oils in CO with the same intensity I believed in Tinkerbell before she became just another super-star.

These days I ingest hwc and, separately, CO to a total of about 100 - 150 calories every morning and seem to be maintaining the fast.


Hmmmm.... I hope some HWC in my coffee doesn't ruin my 16 hour fast. I looked it up and a tablespoon has .3 grams of protein. I wonder how much is too much. I ran all over town to find two brands that do not contain the dreaded carrageenan and found some, so thought I was good to go. Maybe I should drink it later in the day. I am not really fond of the So Delicious coffee creamer as a substitute.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:30 AM   #640
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Hmmmm.... I hope some HWC in my coffee doesn't ruin my 16 hour fast. I looked it up and a tablespoon has .3 grams of protein. I wonder how much is too much. I ran all over town to find two brands that do not contain the dreaded carrageenan and found some, so thought I was good to go. Maybe I should drink it later in the day. I am not really fond of the So Delicious coffee creamer as a substitute.
Hmmm, I guess I didn't realize that HWC is so low in protein? I think you are fine with that low. I mean really. Now I am going to go look up carrageenan. What the heck is that in?

I enjoy learning all of this stuff. I think.

Cici & Blonde ~ I because I am obsessed with this and fascinated at the same time. Yet, I agree with all... that I am a bit overwhelmed with info overload! Sometimes I feel like I am back in class and worrying that I will fail the test.

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Old 02-06-2013, 11:19 AM   #641
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Hmmm, I guess I didn't realize that HWC is so low in protein? I think you are fine with that low. I mean really. Now I am going to go look up carrageenan. What the heck is that in?

I enjoy learning all of this stuff. I think.

Cici & Blonde ~ I because I am obsessed with this and fascinated at the same time. Yet, I agree with all... that I am a bit overwhelmed with info overload! Sometimes I feel like I am back in class and worrying that I will fail the test.
Thanks, and thanks for all that fasting info!! The carrageenan is a concern for me because of my Crohn's disease. It is in so many things. I was drinking organic cream thinking it wasn't in there, and it is. Plus the brand of almond milk I was using. It's in ice creams and yogurts, almond milk, cottage cheese, etc. It varies by brand, so I was looking up which brands don't contain it. I found Clover and Strauss Farms. It is said to cause inflammation particularly for those with bowel disorders so it was recommended I avoid it. It may not be an issue for "normal" people.

I love all this info too, but it is overwhelming and I am just doing the best I can do.
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:59 PM   #642
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Those of you talking about having no hunger are killing me. I was up at 4am and almost always wake up hungry. Today was exceptionally bad and has been all day. First food was salmon (100)followed two hours later by green smoothy (kefir, spinach, blueberries, almonds, DE, filtered water (125). I ate a serious lunch at noon of ground beef, feta, olives, potatoes (550), by 3pm I am shaking, had a spoon of peanut butter (100). Finishing smoothy now (125). Will probably have bone broth soup later (200-400). The idea of a 16 hour fast is a dream. No sugar except what is naturally in blueberries. Admittedly, today is extreme and I have been reasonably active the past few days and not sleeping much. Usually 4 meals of 4-500 calories is satisfying. Anything less and I don't feel optimum. I think sleep might be the main issue. Nothing really bad in the diet that I can spot except I am eating all day long.
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:02 PM   #643
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Cici,
Have you tried adding gluc/konjac root to that smoothie??? I swear by it. Don't make the mistake I did and add too much, just 1/4 tsp should make it nice and filling. It is a miracle worker for hunger.
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:29 PM   #644
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That's the same stuff they make miracle noodles from, isn't it? Will check the HFstore.

Just roasted my first tomatoes. Oh, how good they are. Threw some onions and a couple beef bones on for good measure. Second batch in now with same bones. The bones are bare, having been used for broth before. Does that matter?
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Old 02-06-2013, 01:59 PM   #645
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That's the same stuff they make miracle noodles from, isn't it? Will check the HFstore.

Just roasted my first tomatoes. Oh, how good they are. Threw some onions and a couple beef bones on for good measure. Second batch in now with same bones. The bones are bare, having been used for broth before. Does that matter?
We are supposed to be able to reuse bones. I have read of people using the knuckle, joint, and the feet many, many times. I am sure that some bones don't make as much.
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Old 02-06-2013, 02:35 PM   #646
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Cici--give it some time. I used to be like you--constantly hungry in the morning at 7 and then ravenous again at 10-- and now I never am. I think my body is finally getting the nutrients it needs. I will say that potatoes for dinner seems to make a difference in that regard, but I also think the seaweed, brazilnuts, liver, bonebroth, eggs and salmon are doing something magical to my appetite. I still get pangs of hunger--sometimes sharp ones--but if I just ignore it, it seems to pass and then I am truly not hungry again for hours. so weird.
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Old 02-06-2013, 03:08 PM   #647
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I agree with Ouiz. My hunger has left and sometimes I have to think, have I eaten enough? I think the 65% fat helps with this as well as all of the nutrients.

Also, I am wondering are you eating your taters cold? Just curious.
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Old 02-06-2013, 03:09 PM   #648
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Quote:
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Thanks, and thanks for all that fasting info!! The carrageenan is a concern for me because of my Crohn's disease. It is in so many things. I was drinking organic cream thinking it wasn't in there, and it is. Plus the brand of almond milk I was using. It's in ice creams and yogurts, almond milk, cottage cheese, etc. It varies by brand, so I was looking up which brands don't contain it. I found Clover and Strauss Farms. It is said to cause inflammation particularly for those with bowel disorders so it was recommended I avoid it. It may not be an issue for "normal" people.

I love all this info too, but it is overwhelming and I am just doing the best I can do.
A doctor whom I saw years ago who dealt a lot with food intolerance said that carageen was in so many processed foods that many people develop some level of intolerance to it through over exposure; if you cook mostly from scratch and buy products with minimal additives, you are less likely to run into carageen (which I think may serve as a thickener/preservative). I'm lucky that I'm able to buy cottage cheese, sour cream, etc. in brands that have no additives like that, but even many organic brands of dairy may contain it. I've gotten to be a fanatic about reading and comparing labels, including checking all ingredients.
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Old 02-06-2013, 03:10 PM   #649
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cici,
I am agreeing with what Ouiz said.

I was just re-reading again today about how a malnourished body can cause a continued state of hunger. Once you have been eating all the nourishing foods for a period, perhaps that hunger will go away. Continual food desires are a pretty good sign of an unsatisfied nutrient deficiency. I have found this to be true in my personal situation.

Don't you also have some sleep issues? I know when my circadian rhythms were off, so was the timing of my hormone release and I was always hungry. I used to get up at 4:30 AM and the timing of my feedings was always off.

Also, I am one who uses my bones over and over until they get crumbly.
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Old 02-06-2013, 03:13 PM   #650
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cici,
Don't you also have some sleep issues? I know when my circadian rhythms were off, so was the timing of my hormone release and I was always hungry. I used to get up at 4:30 AM and the timing of my feedings was always off.

Also, I am one who uses my bones over and over until they get crumbly.
Cici, she is right about the Circadian rythm. I have read so much on the PHD Q&A about this. I think eating during daylight hours is going to make this balance out and hopefully, you can get your body nourished as well.
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Old 02-06-2013, 03:13 PM   #651
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A doctor whom I saw years ago who dealt a lot with food intolerance said that carageen was in so many processed foods that many people develop some level of intolerance to it through over exposure; if you cook mostly from scratch and buy products with minimal additives, you are less likely to run into carageen (which I think may serve as a thickener/preservative). I'm lucky that I'm able to buy cottage cheese, sour cream, etc. in brands that have no additives like that, but even many organic brands of dairy may contain it. I've gotten to be a fanatic about reading and comparing labels, including checking all ingredients.
Yes I bought Horizon organic and organic valley and they both had it in so I was surprised. But I found some brands that don't contain it. You need to even look at the product to see if it is pasturized or ultra pasturized as the ultra pasturized had it and the other did not. As you said, reading the labels is very important. I assumed organic was okay and it was not.
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Old 02-06-2013, 03:15 PM   #652
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Does anyone remember off the top of their head the optimum recommended macro nutrients for PHD for weight loss? I know it was lower in fat.

I am trying to plug in my tracker and I can't find a fast and easy answer without having to sift through tons of reading. Anyone remember it?
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Old 02-06-2013, 03:22 PM   #653
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I agree with Ouiz. My hunger has left and sometimes I have to think, have I eaten enough? I think the 65% fat helps with this as well as all of the nutrients.

Also, I am wondering are you eating your taters cold? Just curious.
Yep, cold taters today. I had made microwave chips earlier. Sometimes though, I do put them into something cooking at the end, just long enough to warm them a bit. When I did the potato hack for a couple days, I grilled the cold potato slabs. Did not have hunger or BS symptoms when I did that.

All of you lady's mention of "all the nutrients" reminds me I am still missing a few things like seaweed, oysters, and still don't have grassfed beasts. And yes, I think the sleep deprivation is a big player. Thanks for the help and encouragement.
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Old 02-06-2013, 03:25 PM   #654
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By weight, the diet works out to about 3/4 plant foods, 1/4 animal foods. By calories, it works out to about 600 carb calories, primarily from starches; around 300 protein calories; and fats supply a majority (50-60%) of daily calories.
That's from page 1.

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Old 02-06-2013, 06:23 PM   #655
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That's from page 1.
Thank you very much.
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:44 PM   #656
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Yep, cold taters today. I had made microwave chips earlier. Sometimes though, I do put them into something cooking at the end, just long enough to warm them a bit. When I did the potato hack for a couple days, I grilled the cold potato slabs. Did not have hunger or BS symptoms when I did that.

All of you lady's mention of "all the nutrients" reminds me I am still missing a few things like seaweed, oysters, and still don't have grassfed beasts. And yes, I think the sleep deprivation is a big player. Thanks for the help and encouragement.
I use a seasoning blend that has some seaweed in it to sprinkle on hard-boiled eggs, as well as putting a bit of seaweed into my beef broth. I saw that my favorite brand of smoked oysters in olive oil was back on the store shelves again (along with a variant that had some red pepper seasoning along with the olive oil).

I hope that you are able to start experiencing better sleep, Cici. I find that my sleep and circadian rhythms have gotten much better since I started doing lowcarb, but it doesn't work that way for everyone. Have you tried magnesium or melatonin as sleep aids?
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:17 PM   #657
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There is a poster on PHD that goes by the name of Jaybird that has lost 80 lbs in 7.5 months to his normal weight, just following PHD plan. This is Paul's response to him... (bolded what I thought very interesting)

Quote:
Paul: Jay, itís very interesting that on pre-Paleo diets you were always hungry, and when you ate to satisfy your hunger, your weight returned to as high or higher than when you began. Thatís consistent with the set-point theory of obesity: your set-point hadnít changed, and so when you reduced weight below the set-point, you got hungry; when you ate to satisfy your appetite, you were obese. The Paleo experience could also be said to be consistent with the set-point theory: it reduced the set-point so you lost 40 pounds without hunger, but weight was still above normal and hunger returned as your weight got below the new set-point.
An interesting data point, which I see as a challenge for the setpoint theory because it suggests an alternative view, is that on VLC Paleo your hunger returned at the same time you began to feel unwell. This suggests that hunger and setpoint are really an index of health, and when the body is not being properly maintained the brain manufactures hunger. When nutrients are abundant and the body has all it needs to establish good health, the setpoint is reduced to normal weight, hunger disappears, and weight loss resumes.
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:20 PM   #658
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Jaybird's response to Paul about his weight loss journey, from 250 to 170 in 7.5 months...

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Hunger
I followed the PHD weight loss protocols and felt virtually no hunger throughout the 7 months. Intermittent fasting with one meal a day worked best for my schedule; I coconut oil fasted earlier in the day and 1 day per week. After the first month, I coconut oil fasted for an entire week since I figured I should clean out my system. Then I dropped the calories to only 1200 to get some faster results early on to help my back. I thought I would readjust the calories up or the eating schedule according to my hunger, but I did not experience any hunger and had great energy so I left the plan alone. What little hunger I did experience was very mild and just meant it was time to drink another bottle of water or swig a tablespoon of coconut oil before the evening dinner. Interestingly, I ate some birthday cakes toward the end and experienced stronger and more uncomfortable hunger the following days than the previous months. The lack of hunger was definitely a key to my weight loss success.

Food Reward
For me, PHD is a high food reward diet. It tastes great every meal! Even in the beginning of the diet, I enjoyed the PHD meal just as much mentally as thinking about eating my old food. Later, my taste buds changed and PHD became clearly the more rewarding food. However, at least part of the PHD was bland. The coconut oil provided calories with no taste and helped keep my calories low. Yet, I really believe I would not have lasted on the diet if the food was bland. Having a neutral taste reminds me of the very low carb paleo diet that didn’t allow the safe starches and even small amounts of dairy. The white rice and white potatoes enabled me to eat vegetables regularly by buffering the taste until my taste buds adjusted and I began to like them. Avoiding milk but having small amounts of other dairy also went a long way in the enjoyment of the food and menu options. The safe starches, dairy, and a little bit of fruit also seem to be responsible for satisfying my sweet tooth cravings. I’m not sure if the high food reward PHD would have controlled my calorie intake since I counted calories. Nonetheless, compared to the other past diets I dreaded to eat, I prefer the high food reward of PHD. I use to say, “Why does all of the food that’s good for you taste so bad and all of the food that’s bad for you taste so good?” I don’t say that anymore with PHD.

Plateau
My belief is that total calories do matter. I’ve always been able to lose the fat and get back to my original weight provided that I lower my calories enough to accomplish it. However, my will power usually ran out before I accomplished it many times. The constant hunger and low energy with lower calories exhausted my desire to lose the weight on previous diets. In contrast, I experienced the opposite on PHD. While the PHD food and supplements provided satiety and energy, I controlled my calories by exercising, counting calories, eating only a single meal, and having oil fast days. Even after only a month, I experienced such a surge in energy even on lower calories that I increased my exercise to 2 hours of walking. Having established such a low calorie amount in the beginning with a challenging exercise and eating plan, I simply had to maintain the routine until the goal was reached.

I believe the key was PHD enabled me to maintain low enough calories to not experience a plateau as on other diets.

Set Point
My experience might show some truth to the concept of a set point. For instance, prior to starting PHD my weight stayed consistently within a 5 lb range for about 2 years. During this period I was eating whatever I wanted. My experience on PHD could be construed as the resetting of my set point to my normal weight – 170 lb. I was never hungry on PHD as long as my weight was above 175 lb. I started feeling more hunger once I got close to my normal weight in the 170s. Unlike previous diets, I was able to eliminate the hunger by eating a little bit more — just upping my calories slightly.

Although other diets could get me to this weight point before, I had to stay in a perpetual starving mode to remain at this level. Unlike on PHD, on other diets adding enough calories to stop hunger always led to a rebound of weight that leveled out at a higher level than before I started.

When I started PHD my intended target weight was 175 pounds. With PHD, I actually continued to lose a little more than the 175 down to 170 without planning on it. Then, my weight slightly increased with obvious cheats like some birthday cake. While eating the normal amount the following days without the cheats, the weight returned to previous levels without an effort to compensate. After the weight loss, my weight has become more stable. The last month I have had several repeating days on the weight scale with the same exact weight number to the tenth of a point. This occurred even though I ate more on a few of the previous days. My weight history shows a stair stepping up higher with each diet attempt until PHD stabilized my weight back to its original healthy level.

Closing Thought

During the middle of my weight loss, I was at a restaurant eating a salad with balsamic vinegar and olive oil dressing, 8 oz steak, and a baked potato with butter and sour cream and some water with lemon, but without a dinner roll. I paused and proclaimed, “I can’t believe I’m eating this and still losing weight! This is the BEST DIET EVER!”

Last edited by sunday; 02-06-2013 at 08:22 PM..
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:41 AM   #659
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Wow. This is so interesting. Thanks again to everybody.
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:53 AM   #660
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Paul gives the examples of ways to assist us in our weight loss journey. Lowering fat and focus on the protein & carb.

Quote:
The Three Keys for Weight Loss

The three keys for an effective and healthy weight loss diet, as I see it, are:
1. Elimination of food toxins. Food toxins are the primary cause of obesity and you can’t expect to cure a condition by causing it!
2. Perfect nourishment. The diet should be as nourishing as possible. The dieter should be in the “plateau range” of every nutrient –
vitamins, minerals, organic molecules, carbs, protein, and fats.
3. Calorie restriction. You have to be in energy deficit to lose weight.

The main food toxins to avoid are fructose, polyunsaturated fat, and wheat (see Why We Get Fat: Food Toxins). In my advice to erp, I suggested replacing some of her fruit with “safe starches” like potatoes, and replacing her PUFA-containing nuts with low-PUFA macadamia nuts or other foods.

But the harder part is achieving a calorie restricted diet when so few calories are being expended, and yet avoiding malnutrition. How may that be done?

Eat Protein and Carbs; Reduce Fat
This may surprise many readers, since we’re fat-friendly, but there should be no reduction in carb or protein consumption on weight loss diets. Calorie restriction should come out of fat.

The Perfect Health Diet “plateau range” for carbs and protein is 600 to 1200 calories. Eating less than 600 combined carb+protein calories per day raises the specter of either protein deficiency (leading to hunger) or glucose deficiency (leading to zero-carb dangers).

So if a typical daily intake is 400 carb calories and 300 protein calories, there’s really not much room to cut protein or carbs.

Remember that the body doesn’t have a significant store of carbs; the body’s total glycogen supply amounts to about a day’s needs. Nor does it have a store of protein, apart from skeletal muscle; and you don’t want to lose your muscle.

But it does have a large store of fat – those adipose cells that you want to shrink.

So to conserve muscle and reduce fat tissue, you have to eat your normal allotment of protein and carbs while restricting fat intake. As long as there is no serious dysfunction of adipose cells, they will release fat as needed to meet the body’s fat needs. And that’s what you want – fat being moved out of adipose cells to be burned.

So your calorie-restricted weight loss diet will be just as nourishing as your regular diet. Only the source of the nourishing fats – adipose cells instead of food – will be different.

Eat Nourishing Fats
But not all fat can be removed from the diet. The reason is that not all nutrients found in fat-containing foods are stored in adipose cells.

You see, fats are stored in adipose cells as triglycerides. But we need to get other lipid molecules, not just fatty acids, from food. The really crucial molecules are the phospholipids, especially phosphatidylcholine.

Choline, inositol, and a few others are organic molecules are bonded to fats in cellular membranes. We need to obtain these from our foods in order to be well nourished.

Diets low in choline strongly promote obesity. Therefore, anyone seeking to lose weight should be sure to eat a choline-rich diet.

The easiest way to do that is to eat 3 eggs a day and a ľ pound beef liver once a week.

Another type of lipid that may be missing from adipose cells are omega-3 fats. Balancing the omega-6 to omega-3 ratio is helpful against obesity, and most people are omega-3 deficient. So eating up to 1 pound of salmon or sardines per week may assist weight loss.

Beef and lamb – meats that are low in omega-6 fats – would be good choices for any additional meat.

Be Super-Nourished

The body’s appetite regulation mechanisms are highly attuned to your micronutrient needs. Micronutrient deficiencies will tend to induce a strong appetite for food, as your body tries to get you to obtain more nutrition. This could be a major reason why “empty calories” such as cotton candy are fattening.

Our book has some examples of “micronutritious foods”: variety meats, bone soups, seaweed, shellfish, eggs, and vegetables.

Nutritious, low-calorie foods like bone soups can be very helpful for weight loss. Soups can also be a good way for someone who doesn’t like vegetables to obtain them.

In addition, I would recommend that every person on a weight-loss diet take our full supplement regimen: a daily multivitamin, D, K2, C, magnesium, copper, chromium, iodine, and selenium. Also, I would suggest taking our optional B vitamins: thiamin, riboflavin, pantothenic acid, biotin, vitamin B6, vitamin B12, and choline (note the exclusion of niacin and folic acid).

Keeping Calories Down

What is the minimum calorie intake that meets all these nutrient considerations? Eggs, salmon, and beef have more fat than protein, so if you’re aiming for 400 carb calories and 300 protein calories, you’ll probably eat at least 500 fat calories per day. So it would seem to be impossible to go below about 1200 calories per day while still being well nourished.

The place to cut calories, then, is the extra fats. Perfect Health Diet favorites like butter, coconut oil, and cream are, sadly, top candidates for reduction.

Of course, the more active you are, the more you can include those fats.

For less active people, the Weight Loss Version of the Perfect Health Diet becomes similar to a lot of popular diets. Many diets recommend a roughly even calorie distribution, with 30-40% of carbs, protein, and fats. This is what a calorie-restricted version of the Perfect Health Diet should look like too.

So, the perfect day in a weight loss diet: soup, potatoes or other safe starch, salmon, eggs, vegetables. Not too much fat in the sauces!
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