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Old 02-03-2013, 09:25 PM   #571
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Beverly, one can add anything acidic--say, lemon juice rather than apple cider vinegar--to bone broth. But you do need to add something acidic, or lots of the nutritional value will be lost. You could also reduce the amount of acid added; I use a 1/4 cup per big batch, but just 1 T. might be enough to draw out the minerals from the bones.
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:48 AM   #572
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I do think it is the acv! I put extra in this time, so mine really was aromatic!

I have read that fowl will be less pungent, as beef, lamb or bison. I think I will do the turkey next.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:31 AM   #573
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I do think it is the acv! I put extra in this time, so mine really was aromatic!

I have read that fowl will be less pungent, as beef, lamb or bison. I think I will do the turkey next.
Sven- thanks. I might try the lemon juice to see how it impacts smell.

I was reminded of some suggestions from reading my book about making the magical bone brothfor those who might be reading and have not dived into this yet)


--On roasting beef and lamb first. For beef and lamb broth, the meat is browned in a hot oven to form compounds that give flavor and color--the result of a fusion of amino acids with sugars, called the Maillard reaction.

-The water should be cold when you start because slow heating helps bring out flavors. Add acid to the broth to help extract calcium

-Heat the broth slowly and once the boil begins, reduce heat to its lowest point, so the broth just barely simmers.

-Bay leaves makes it smell better

- For people who can't handle the smell, you can use a pressure cooker. Some have reported better taste, better gel, and less odor.

- There are arguments on both sides about use of a slow cooker which I have been using. Some think it is not good unless you have some kind that you can really control the temp on. A good stock should never boil, keep it at a very low simmer. It should take hours. A slow cooker is simply too hot, even on its lowest setting. It impacts the gel.

I am kind of scared of using pressure cookers, but I really can't get my crockpot low enough in temp. Although I have not tried the trick of putting an empty opened tuna can under the pot. I am not so sure that would be good for the pot itself. I don't like leaving a pot on the stove all night with the burner going, so that is why I have used the crockpot.

I wanted to check my broth on the "keep warm" setting of the crockpot and see what temp the liquid is. Anyone know the best temperature that the broth should be held at?
If it should be at a gentle simmer, I assume about 200 degrees F? I don't want it so warm that bacteria is a problem, but don't want to be boiling it.
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:01 AM   #574
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Hmmm, my slow cooker/crockpot seems like it is boiling on low/warm? Although, I cooked for 30 hours and not much moisture escapes, so would that mean it is simmering?
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:18 AM   #575
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Hmmm, my slow cooker/crockpot seems like it is boiling on low/warm? Although, I cooked for 30 hours and not much moisture escapes, so would that mean it is simmering?
I suppose the boiling point depends on what altitude you are at? But just for kicks, I stuck a thermometer in. On "low" on my crockpot, the broth is boiling. The "high" temp is a very vigorous boil, and the "keep warm" runs under 200 degrees, so maybe I will start it at high and then leave it at "keep warm".

I guess if I want to improve the gel, I can always look for chicken feet to add although that kind of grosses me out right now.
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:28 AM   #576
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Hmm. Guess I will need to rethink my broth too. I have used the crock pot with mixed results. Never roasted anything first. By the time you do all that slow cooking in the oven, then on the stove that is a lot of fuel cost to add to the broth which is already getting pretty expensive.
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:29 PM   #577
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Hmm. Guess I will need to rethink my broth too. I have used the crock pot with mixed results. Never roasted anything first. By the time you do all that slow cooking in the oven, then on the stove that is a lot of fuel cost to add to the broth which is already getting pretty expensive.
I've always roasted my bones for an hour, half an hour on each side, but this weekend I did it for just half an hour, and the broth turned out just as well. Maybe also consider doing other roasting chores on a separate dish/rack in the oven at the same time (I roast tomatoes, brussel sprouts, or green beans, tossed with olive oil and seasonings, for example) to save on fuel costs.

I do bone broth at a low simmer on top of the stove in a Dutch oven and in a giant soup pot. I bring the liquid to a gentle simmer and then turn it down so there is just a little bubbling happening under the surface (at a setting of 3 or 2 on a gas oven, just above "low").

I think if utility costs are a concern, the bone broth would be pretty good and nutritious if one stops the simmering at 6 hours or so. I am usually home doing errands (laundry, straightening up, etc.) for 6 hours straight on weekend, so I do the majority of on-stove broth cooking then. If you keep the liquid on a very low simmer, it doesn't need watching other than making sure that the water doesn't all boil away and burn the bones to the pot.
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Old 02-04-2013, 02:09 PM   #578
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Hmm. Guess I will need to rethink my broth too. I have used the crock pot with mixed results. Never roasted anything first. By the time you do all that slow cooking in the oven, then on the stove that is a lot of fuel cost to add to the broth which is already getting pretty expensive.
Cici, I've been trying to do bones in the oven while other things are cooking, and where we live, energy costs are one third as expensive overnight and on weekends, so I do broth in the slow cooer then. Otherwise it gets ridiculously expensive.
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Old 02-04-2013, 02:33 PM   #579
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Maybe consider a pressure cooker to lower the amount of time needed?

As with all info in this world, we have differing opinions on everything. Some say a pressure cooker is a good thing, some don't.

And for those who don't have gut disease, a shorter cooking time may work fine. The GAPS program defines bone and meat stock differently. GAPS is a temporary diet to heal/seal the gut wall and resolve autoimmune issues.
The difference is in how long they cook.

The diet starts with stock where the primary focus is to heal the gut. Broth is for later on once there has been healing. The significant difference is that the stock (meat stock) is not cooked as long as broth (bone stock).
Cooking broth at a very low temperature (slow simmer) will minimize the formation of free glutamates. If your gut isn't healed, you can react to glutamates negatively.

The larger the bones, the longer the cooking time and according to them, beef bones need to be cooked much longer than chicken/turkey. Fish bones can be done in a couple of hours.
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Old 02-04-2013, 02:41 PM   #580
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You are all so sweet. I have been very low income the past year while looking for work. Michigan is crazy high with the unemployment rate and that doesn't even count those who have fallen off the radar since exhausting benefits. My expenses are low so I am doing okay, but do stretch every penny 'til it squeeks.

I will try roasting the bones next weekend when I make my next batch, then try the stovetop on low to see if it is better than the way I've been doing it. If nothing else, it will keep the apartment warmer.
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:28 PM   #581
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Cici, I kind of wished that I hadn't ordered the bison & beef bones now. It would be much simpler and faster to just make turkey broth. And I really love the taste too! Cost saving as well!

Bev, I am enjoying my new batch, but I seriously wonder if I may have boiled the goodness out ??? I will continue to drink it and pour it on everything, hoping for the benefits of the proline and glycine to be in the yumminess. I noticed that the gel is not as solid as the fat? Much more fat on top. Hmmm?
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:44 PM   #582
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Cici, I kind of wished that I hadn't ordered the bison & beef bones now. It would be much simpler and faster to just make turkey broth. And I really love the taste too! Cost saving as well!

Bev, I am enjoying my new batch, but I seriously wonder if I may have boiled the goodness out ??? I will continue to drink it and pour it on everything, hoping for the benefits of the proline and glycine to be in the yumminess. I noticed that the gel is not as solid as the fat? Much more fat on top. Hmmm?
I doubt you boiled the goodness out of it. I am sure you are getting benefits from it. Each batch seems a bit different depending on the bones used etc. My turkey batch today was just delicious. Best one yet. I am going to do more turkey. I even got a nice gel.
We are all doing great with our bone broth!!
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:57 PM   #583
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Cici, I kind of wished that I hadn't ordered the bison & beef bones now. It would be much simpler and faster to just make turkey broth. And I really love the taste too! Cost saving as well!

Bev, I am enjoying my new batch, but I seriously wonder if I may have boiled the goodness out ??? I will continue to drink it and pour it on everything, hoping for the benefits of the proline and glycine to be in the yumminess. I noticed that the gel is not as solid as the fat? Much more fat on top. Hmmm?
I find that the bison and beef bone broth are wonderful as the base for soups like chili or in ground beef casseroles or marinara sauce or in making a sauce to serve with steak or other beef/bison cuts. So even if you prefer to eat the turkey broth regularly, frozen beef broth can be a great asset for cooking. I find that broth made from chicken wings is also good, but I like the turkey best. Sometimes I eat the beef broth cold, with a spoon, like jellied consumme; it's refreshing and I'll bet would be good in summer as a cold soup first course that way.

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Old 02-05-2013, 05:13 AM   #584
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Hmmm, my old crock pot est morte, long live the new 7 quart crock pot. I noticed on 'low' the latest batch bubbled around the edges. And I did not get gel. I will try the 'warm' setting next batch.

I have started the PHD book. Haven't had time to read much yet, but I am enjoying it greatly (as I said, PHD sounds very close to the place I have evolved my eating on my own). I am looking forward to learning a lot!

Now, why I said don't worry - on a fast less than 36 hours you get SIRTs ... and why I think the shorter time may be healthier...

The way science is phrasing it right now is "Sirtuin activity is triggered by Ketosis." I suspect science has cause and effect mixed up and eventually it will be described is "When the body has used a high percentage of ingested foods, or when certain eating patterns are followed (like LC); and when the body has burned a small percentage of stored glycogen, sirtuin activity is triggered. This, in turn, moves the body into a ketogenic state." (Well, okay, the wording needs work )

Which means, unless you are eating foods that are particularly difficult to digest (take a long time to digest) the body is going to finish noshing and trigger your SIRTs and go into Ketosis. As time passes without interrupting the process by eating above a certain number of calories, more and more SIRTs are triggered and deeper and deeper you go into fat burning.

The body is designed to do this. The Jaminets say the body is designed to thrive on intermittent fasting. Golly, what a coincidence! With low calorie eating, especially with PHD foods, it is going to happen every night. Depending on what and how much you eat, it happens if you skip the next meal.

BUT, why do I say there can be too much of a good thing where SIRTs are concerned?

I found some recent studies that throw an interesting light on this.

It seems those sweet, cuddly, clean-up-the-mess, little teddy bear enzymes are really determined little single-minded SOBs. If they don't burn themselves up while cleaning, dusting, and polishing their home cell they just keep right on working. They dismantle their cell and send it to be used as fuel. Too many SIRTs active for too long and that refreshed, renewed, reinvigorated cell is toast.

Burn up deadwood and dead cells, good. Burn up healthy cells, not so much.

I think for many BUDDDs this is alright at first. So many of us come from eating the SAD, or some low-fat or otherwise imbalanced diet, or we are following a fairly healthy WOE that is, for reasons personal to our particular body, not optimal for us (I suspect that may play into some of the LC stalls). Most of us have plenty of deadwood and dead cells when we start JUDDD. Our SIRTs have plenty of useful, health-promoting work to do. Of course, I still have to finish reading the book, but I suspect the work gets done a lot faster if we do not include toxic foods and UD giant caramel cream puffs as major food groups.

JUDDD does not care what you eat. Your body probably does.

And the truth is at the beginning of every day there is a lot of accumulated mess to clean up. Millions of cells die in normal, healthy bodies every day. And, sadly, cellular damage occurs even if the foods we eat are perfect. So many external and internal things put stress on our bodies.

But, fast forward to me and Beverly and Sunday and a bunch of wonderful people who have been JUDDDing for a year or more. Some of us still have a lot of clean-up left to do. Some of us ... well, we may have more SIRTs alive and kicking than we really need.

What to do? What to do?

One thing that frequently works is to eat at maintenance levels for awhile. Slow SIRT activation down. Don't stop it. Just bring it down to a level better suited to the body's cellular waste management system's needs.

Another thing that works is to shorten the fasting cycle. Fast 5, 5:2, eating windows of huge variety...they all ensure SIRTs are activated, but they keep volume a bit lower.

I think the Jaminets have a winner. Defining a fasting period - with it's resultant cellular clean-up, ketosis, and all the good things therein - combined with a WOE that is enormously supportive of most bodies' health at a variety of levels sounds like a really, really good plan to me.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:03 AM   #585
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Nancy thank you for this well thought out post!
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:06 AM   #586
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Wonderful Nancy! Thank you!

I spent so much time studying the different IF methods recently and what it means to our Sirt-1 that I am now convinced that I will continue to fast but not to worry so much about the longer fasts. I notice when I stopped counting/logging and ate from PHD types of allowed foods in a time window, that I naturally eat low cal. So, in order for me to blow this 7 to 8 hour period, I am going to have to party hard. Or go out and eat some good ol' fast food at some of my old haunts.

Did I tell everyone my thyroid is acting normal again? I think this is flat out crazy, because I have only been doing this daily fast for a little over a month.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:21 AM   #587
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No you didn't say your thyroid issues are better! That's amazing!

Sunday, I'm going to impose on you to please post a 'typical' day or two of food diaries. I'm mostly just curious about what you're eating daily. Which foods you like the best, etc and which foods you feel give you the most satiety. Will you share a little info?

I'm not doing PHD yet, but if I were I know I could eat the carrots and potatoes, yogurt, some white rice and chicken and turkey (mostly) and of course I love salmon. Ix-nay on the sauerkraut and kimchee. Maybe I could eat bone broth made from turkey wings. I'm just so excited that you're feeling so good.
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:56 AM   #588
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Nancy, I was so excited for you to share your info. Fascinating info you posted. THANK YOU!! I started out like gangbusters the first six months and then ...nada. It is always my greatest fear- that I find something that works and it stops working. What you posted makes sense.

I was confused in the PHD book. I was going to quote it, but can't find where I put my book at the moment. I think Jaminet suggested not going over a 16 hour fast. But then, he said the alternate diet , I am assuming he means JUDDD, is good for life extension and disease prevention in animals. But the he said something like -- we want our fasts to be shorter than 24 hours to maximize immunity. Long fasts make infections worse. And it works better with circadian rhythms.
So does that mean if you are going for the goal of life extension and disease prevention to go longer than 16 hours? Can anyone clarify that part of PHD for me? Please?

It is kind of amazing to me how much better I feel on the 16/8 and how controlled my eating has been. Keeping my fingers crossed!!

Sunday, what great news about your thyroid! Improved tests?

Blonde, have you ever tried Bubbie's sauerkraut? It is SO different tasting than the others. Kind of mild, and really good. It's not fermented with vinegar. Or how about their pickles? I know kimchi takes a certain palate. But you could get your fermented or cultured foods in other ways as well. Have you tasted kombucha? It is delicious. Like a yummy slightly tangy soda pop. I started with GT's gingerade and it is so good. You need to start with small amounts at a time, like adding any fermented food. The water kefir and milk kefir are also very good. And turkey bone broth is really very very good. I can't sing the praises of bone broth enough. It is a magic potion!!

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Old 02-05-2013, 07:56 AM   #589
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Thanks, Nancy. That makes excellent sense.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:02 AM   #590
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Blonde, I started eating paleo before I began JUDDD, but I also would veer off or away for short periods experimenting (once when I tried NK) and once the first few days of JUDDD when I tried to add back carbs such as bread/sugar. The higher carb schpeel lasted only a very brief period because I noticed it wasn't making me feel good on the following DD. In fact, I was so hungry some DD's that I just ate to quench the pain. I guess I was a little envious seeing all of my Juddd budds eating sugar and cupcakes on UD.

This is when the bell went off about wheat and bread. I knew that I had a different reaction than others, but thought well gee, I really would like to keep bread. I knew nothing about Wheatbelly at this time, just knew it wasn't going to work for me.

My thinking on my thyroid is that the CO & MCT that I have been adding to my morning coffee is reviving the defunct thyroid. The reason is, I am RX'd 1 grain of Armour daily and believe it or not, I can tell immediately when it is not necessary to dose, because I can actually feel too much thyroid hormone.

I will begin posting my menus for all to see. If you get sick of reading my menu, I will stop.

Every day whether or it is UD/DD I have been making the Coconut Milk/Kefir/Blueberry/Kale/Spinach/Apple smoothie ~ I add a 1/4 tsp gluc each time to make it thick and filling. I think if you enjoy smoothies you could add any greens/berries that you enjoy and it will work. The great thing is I am getting my ferment/fruit/veggies all in one drink.

Sunday -

(on waking) 1 tbsp of MCT in coffee

16 hours from yesterday's last meal~
1 egg scrambled w/ 1.5 oz of chuck eye roast
Smoothie

Mashed tater w/ beef bone broth
2 oz of chuck eye roast
remainder of smoothie

Mon-

1 tbsp of MCT in coffee

Smoothie
2 eggs scrambled w/ 2 oz of salmon

Chili beef w/parmesan
3 tbs of Salsa
GF Rice Chips
1 Dark Choc Sea Salt Caramel
Mac Nuts/gold raisins

Tues -

1 tbsp of MCT in coffee

Smoothie
Bone broth soup

Remainder of smoothie
1 cup of Mashed tater w/ broth on top
Black olives and bubbies dill relish

Wed -
1 tbsp of MCT in coffee

Smoothie
Scrambled eggs/salmon/hash browns

Chili w/ Parmesan
Bone broth soup and mash taters
Dark Chocolate & Walnuts & blueberries

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Old 02-05-2013, 08:06 AM   #591
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so Sunday--you agree with Jaminet that MCT oil or CO does not interrupt the fast??
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:08 AM   #592
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Now as soon as the farmer's market is open and more veggies/fruit are abundant, I will be eating salad and green smoothie, because I love my veggies very much. I just don't enjoy canned. Everything that I eat now comes fresh from the stalk or vine. I can't believe that I haven't needed to purchase frozen berries.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:11 AM   #593
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so Sunday--you agree with Jaminet that MCT oil or CO does not interrupt the fast??
I do! I believe that is the reason I am doing this type of fast so easily. I know that there is 130 cal in the tbsp of oil, but notice that it doesn't cause me issues yet. I am going to quit counting cals either day for a while, because I really like these foods and see what happens to my weight. I naturally eat more food EOD. I am certain this is from JUDDDing so long.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:17 AM   #594
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OMG! I forgot the Kombucha! I have been drinking kombucha every single day! Wow! It also takes away hunger. I can drink it in the morning after my cup of jo and I feel really good.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:20 AM   #595
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Sunday, do you happen to know the answer to my question in post 588 or should I just try to contact Jaminet and ask...Thanks!
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:27 AM   #596
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WOE: Perfect Health Diet- 16hr Daily Fast
Start Date: JUDDD - 2/01/12 Began at 200, Goal 130
So does that mean if you are going for the goal of life extension and disease prevention to go longer than 16 hours? Can anyone clarify that part of PHD for me? Please?

Did you see his answer to me about 4 pgs back? I believe he meant that the longer fasts could, indeed, cause problems and thus why some don't thrive on this. If I have time today, I will go search for his answer, but it was exactly what you quote.

It is kind of amazing to me how much better I feel on the 16/8 and how controlled my eating has been. Keeping my fingers crossed!!

Exactly! I think the reason that JUDDD doesn't quite do this for me, is because we want to spread the 300-400 cals out to get the most benefit and same with UD. I am allowing myself more than a regular DD, but it feels like much less. No hunger pains which means, according to Jaminet, that I am eating optimally?

Sunday, what great news about your thyroid! Improved tests?

I have blood tests next month. So excited to hear. Also, I am interested in what could really be happening.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:30 AM   #597
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WOE: Perfect Health Diet- 16hr Daily Fast
Start Date: JUDDD - 2/01/12 Began at 200, Goal 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by ouizoid View Post
so Sunday--you agree with Jaminet that MCT oil or CO does not interrupt the fast??
Ouiz, I didn't separate the MCT coffee from the 1st meal, but that is how I do! I actually have the coffee on waking. Then after my 16 hours which is around 10 to 11, I will eat breakfast. I have been waiting a little later every day. Not necessarily on purpose. Just the way my schedule is right now.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:30 AM   #598
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Thank you for posting your menu, Sunday! Just for today, I'll reciprocate because it's sad (and funny).

Breakfast:
Banana (70) at (5am)

2 pieces GF Toast (102) (7am)
2 slices 2% cheese slices(100)

2 tbls chunky peanut butter (190) 8-ish
2tbls mini dark choc chips (140)

So here it is, not even 8:30 in the morning, I've used all of my WW points except 8 for the entire day.

When I LC (which I'm not at the moment, obviously) I never eat candy. In general I never eat candy. I don't really have a sweet tooth. I'm thinking the banana triggered it, because usually no matter what I'm doing food-wise, I rarely eat fruit. I don't love it, or crave it.

I keep thinking I want to be able to co-exist in the real food world. To not always be cutting out whole groups of foods...but I can't seem to do it. Does anyone else have this issue? When I start adding foods, like fruit, or extra carbs it takes over my will. It's laughable to me that I ate chocolate chips today. I mean, this bag has been here since Christmas! Of course I'm not throwing in the towel, just sayin', this blows.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:38 AM   #599
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WOE: Perfect Health Diet- 16hr Daily Fast
Start Date: JUDDD - 2/01/12 Began at 200, Goal 130
Hey Blonde, those dark choc chips are allowed!

I wish I could understand why WW isn't working, but please realize that small changes now will grow to the big change later. So, for instance, you don't like fermented veggies? How bout try eating a bit of greek yogurt or kefir with berries for breakfast? And the later you have breakfast will help if you can.

Also, I think the smoothie may be the answer for you, because you can add that banana, just make sure you add a whole bunch of either kale, spinach, romaine, what ever green veggies you love.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:40 AM   #600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunday View Post
So does that mean if you are going for the goal of life extension and disease prevention to go longer than 16 hours? Can anyone clarify that part of PHD for me? Please?

Did you see his answer to me about 4 pgs back? I believe he meant that the longer fasts could, indeed, cause problems and thus why some don't thrive on this. If I have time today, I will go search for his answer, but it was exactly what you quote.

It is kind of amazing to me how much better I feel on the 16/8 and how controlled my eating has been. Keeping my fingers crossed!!

Exactly! I think the reason that JUDDD doesn't quite do this for me, is because we want to spread the 300-400 cals out to get the most benefit and same with UD. I am allowing myself more than a regular DD, but it feels like much less. No hunger pains which means, according to Jaminet, that I am eating optimally?

Sunday, what great news about your thyroid! Improved tests?

I have blood tests next month. So excited to hear. Also, I am interested in what could really be happening.
Thanks. No, I missed your previous post. Sorry. The thread moves fast now and I think I do miss some stuff. Thanks for responding to me.
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