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Old 02-02-2013, 04:06 PM   #481
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Originally Posted by Blonde with a Rose View Post
I'm not understanding the JUDDD fasting time as 36 hours? What is 5/2 and 16/8?

I think 5/2 is fasting 2x a week but 16/8...is that fast 16 hours a day then eat during an 8 hour period? Can you still get the Sirt1 benefit doing this?

I'm loving hearing about calmness and contentment on a PHD! I am trying so hard to learn better behaviors and it makes me want to do something bad...like binge, which I don't normally do.

I guess I'm going to have to get the book.....
Blonde, you've got the 16/8 thing and the 5:2 thing.
I'm going to detail the 36 hour thing because it's still a wee bee in my bonnet.

One of the central tenets of Juddd, if I understand it correctly, is that DD calories are so low that we are effectively fasting from our last meal on an UD till our first meal on the following UD, roughly 36 hours later.
Jaminet recommends a 16 hour fast (for optimal autophagy, etc.) and says that for many, longer fasts are not advantageous. He also says that longer fasts are therapeutic for some people. Which are you? How can you tell? No idea!
So I keep wondering how many of us are suited to Juddd as written, or are we suited for short run but not long run, etc., etc.
in my little n=1 world, I seemed to hit grooves where it was perfect for me, and other times during which it didn't feel good, and the good grooves weren't always correlated with weight loss. It's like weight loss and feeling great were two independent markers.
Anyway, this bit still makes me curious.
Hope that explains the 36 hours.
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:17 PM   #482
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Just out of curiosity, have you noticed appetite suppression from fasting? That happened for me about 4 weeks into JUDDD. Now that I fast every day for 16 hours, and I have no hunger. Some days, I eat because I fear that I am not going to have optimal nutrition.

On weight loss being slow, I can empathize. Not sure what it is about being my age right now, but my weight loss has lots of stalls.
Hi, Sunday, was this a question for me? Either way, I'll answer it.

I find that I can get through most DDs within my calorie limits. I experience some hunger, but it comes and goes. I'm most hungry around the time that I go to bed, and I wake up hungry during the night, and especially hungry when I get up the next moring.

I'm very hungry at the start of my UDs, but I am usually satisfied by my UD calories, especially if I eat high-volume foods like a huge salad with raw veggies and greens and full-fat dressing with 2 T. oil in the dressing.

I had a difficult time with hunger when I cut my protein back to 60 grams or less per day, initially, and substituted fat calories, but I've gotten used to that. My macro calorie percentages are 75-85 percent fat, 10-15 percent calories, 10 percent or so carbs on up days. On DDs, I was eating mostly lean protein, but lately I've been doing just fluids (bone broth, water, tea, coffee with cream once or twice a day).

As my DDs have gotten less hungry over time, but my UDs have gotten hungrier. I think my body has figured out it's only going to get much food on UDs, and it DEMANDS "Feed me!" (like the plant Audrey in "Little Shop of Horrors").

I spent years trying to (unsuccessfully) limit my weight by eating only 1 meal per day, often just a chef salad day after day. I actually get hungrier now than I did then, but I know I am eating a much healthier diet now and am indeed healthier and feel better. So getting better nourished doesn't really correlate with less hungry days for me.
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:29 PM   #483
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I am so happy for you Blonde! In many ways, JUDDD & WW are the same.

So, after you began NK, about how long before you were tested? This was when your bs shot up? What that tells me and it is possible that the same may have been happening to me, I never had mine checked, that NK doesn't treat all people the same. I only tried it for a couple of months and realized I was spinning my wheels on losing. Even though PHD has high fat, it is much less, 65/20/15. And it is not dairy fat except for limited pasture butter and fermented yogurt, cheese.

I am very curious, I will have to make an appointment after doing this for one month and see where I stand with my BS. I am reading lots of good reports on his site from the readers who ask questions, so I had not thought about getting confirmation. Very good idea!
I suggest asking for both an HbA1C test and a fasting blood glucose test. Some people doing NK (or just lowcarb, period) seem to experience the liver dumping some glucose overnight (a sort of dawn phenomenon) that Peter Attia calls "physiological" (a natural body response) but not "pathological" (not a sign of dysfunction or illness). Thus, some people might have what seem to be problematically high fasting blood glucose but quite low A1C levels (as an indicator of average blood glucose levels). I know that some people in another challenge thread that I follow test BG regularly with a meter and say that their BG may be higher when they first get up but drops relatively quickly into low levels. YMMV, of course, but it's good to have multiple ways of measuring such an important health indicator.
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:49 PM   #484
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Edit- sorry about that. I am always late to the party and apparently misunderstood the question anyway. I read Blonde's question, went to write it out and post it and see it was answered meanwhile. I can't keep up with this thread now!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blonde with a Rose View Post
I'm not understanding the JUDDD fasting time as 36 hours? What is 5/2 and 16/8?

I think 5/2 is fasting 2x a week but 16/8...is that fast 16 hours a day then eat during an 8 hour period? Can you still get the Sirt1 benefit doing this?

I'm loving hearing about calmness and contentment on a PHD! I am trying so hard to learn better behaviors and it makes me want to do something bad...like binge, which I don't normally do.

I guess I'm going to have to get the book.....
Hi Blonde-

Correct me if I am wrong everyone.

JUDDD is done on an every other calendar day basis, so, for example, you go to bed on Tuesday night, and you're restricted to your DD calories or so until Thursday morning (unless you're up at midnight, which most people aren't (So it's effectively 32 to 36 hours of "fasting.")
So if my last meal on Tuesday was at 8:00 PM, 8-midnight is 4 hours. From Tuesday midnight to Wednesday at midnight is 24 hours. From midnight on to 8:00 Am on Thursday, is another 8 hours.
That would be 36 hours. It depends on when your last meal is and when you break the fast.

The 16/8 is fasting for 16 hours and eating within an 8 hour window. I stop eating at 8:00PM and start up the next day at noon.

I don't know if you can get SIRT1 from the 16 hour window however.
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Last edited by sungoddess; 02-02-2013 at 05:04 PM..
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:53 PM   #485
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Thank you Joyjoy for your thoughtful reply. I felt really good doing JUDDD most of the time. Good enough to keep doing it without any weight loss for long periods. Do the 5\2 16\8 fasts still have the sirt1 benefit, do you know?

Svenska-I've also heard something about low carb causing high bg readings in fasting bg but I wasn't sure if this applied to me? All I know for sure was a fasting bg reading of 118 on less than 20 carbs per day.

One other thing want to say regarding the NK diet. I felt really good! Clear headed and strong, not tired or wimpy. I was enjoying it until my bg and cholesetrol levels came in. That scared me, I'm 57 and I don't want to eat myself into a heart attack. It's so hard to know what to do. I want to lose weight, I want to be healthy, I want it to be easier than it is and it's just not easy at all. It seems so much harder now than ever....
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:06 PM   #486
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On the activation of the SIRT1, I remember reading this:


In mice it has been shown that a 24-hour fast activates SIRT1 and that the increased activity is still measurable more than 24 hours after the end of the fast. This effect is not unlike that which my colleagues and I have observed in asthmatics. Not only were their markers for oxidative stress reduced after only one down day, indicating the rapid onset of SIRT1, but after following the Alternate-Day Diet for several weeks and then stopping, their symptoms remained improved for approximately 10 to 14 days, suggesting that SIRT1 was still active and its downstream effects were still operating.

Johnson M.D., James B. (2009-04-07). The Alternate-Day Diet: Turn on Your "Skinny Gene," Shed the Pounds, and Live a Longer and HealthierLife (Kindle Locations 785-789). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

But we are men and women, not mice, so who knows? Maybe a question for Sunday to ask Jaminet.

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Old 02-02-2013, 05:10 PM   #487
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Hey gang, I have to run, but Bev & Kristin answered perfectly. I still have the whole Sirt-1 going, or so I feel, but it could be the benefit of just fasting frequently? Or it could be the ptero? I will ask Paul.

And Sven, I was talking to you. I have some thoughts but need to come back when I have a bit of time. Hang on friend.

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Old 02-02-2013, 05:12 PM   #488
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If I had any doubts before, they were settled in the wee hours as I was in the throws of terrible leg cramps again. This has happened several times lately plus spasms on the sides of my rib cage and in my fingers. I am fairly certain I was terribly depleted of something and won't wait until my heart muscle joins the party.

Did some shopping yesterday. Shrimp fried rice for breakfast, cooked a nice free range organic hen and had some for lunch. The carcass is making bone broth now. Added some Morton lite to my kefer and had some olives. Plan on spinach and broth later. Will be working to build up my nutritional base first. Going to try to go by volume recommendations instead of logging calories while keeping a close watch on scale direction.

Blonde, I am also GF and know grains are at least one thing I will not go back to. We will find what works for us. I just know we will. Please keep posting. We have much in common to support each other in.
I'm sorry you are experiencing those awful cramps, Cici. They sound scary as well as painful. I'm pretty sure you've heard these recommendations before, but are you supplementing with magnesium and potassium? Maybe consider taking epsom salt baths to absorb more magnesium?
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:24 PM   #489
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Thank you Joyjoy for your thoughtful reply. I felt really good doing JUDDD most of the time. Good enough to keep doing it without any weight loss for long periods. Do the 52 168 fasts still have the sirt1 benefit, do you know?

Svenska-I've also heard something about low carb causing high bg readings in fasting bg but I wasn't sure if this applied to me? All I know for sure was a fasting bg reading of 118 on less than 20 carbs per day.

One other thing want to say regarding the NK diet. I felt really good! Clear headed and strong, not tired or wimpy. I was enjoying it until my bg and cholesetrol levels came in. That scared me, I'm 57 and I don't want to eat myself into a heart attack. It's so hard to know what to do. I want to lose weight, I want to be healthy, I want it to be easier than it is and it's just not easy at all. It seems so much harder now than ever....
I can understand deciding to drop NK from that perspective, Blonde with a Rose. I think that it would be a good idea to ask for an HbA1c test even with the PHD, because it's still a lower carb diet than the standard American diet, though not as low as NK. It seems pretty common to have that lowcarb "dawn phenomenon" higher fasting blood glucose if not eating SAD, and we don't want to worry unnecessarily about test results (for example, I wouldn't be worried if fasting blood glucose was somewhat high, doing lowcarb, but HbA1C was in a good range.) Maybe just keep that in mind for your next doctor's appointment.

Something appealing about the PHD (and about some other approaches like Paleo) is that the emphasis is on real foods that generations of people all over the world have recognized as healthy: bone broth, fermented vegetables, egg yolks, liver, cold water fish, meats and vegetables, healthy fats used for generations. So even if one didn't follow the PHD exactly, I think just about everyone could benefit from eating a lot of the foods that this plan emphasizes. That can be reassuring in a world where there are so many competing diet plans and so much conflicting nutritional advice, I think.
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:25 PM   #490
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Yes, since that post, I backed off NK. Take a couple epsom salt baths/week. And am improved in that respect. No serious cramps for a bit. Have used Morton lite salt for years which is 50% potassium and had previously kept the leg cramps at bay. The all over spasms was new since NK and since I wasn't losing weight there seemed no reason to continue down that path.
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:32 PM   #491
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Am loving bone broth here, too. It feels miraculously nourishing.
I still have no experience with fermented food. Can anybody suggest an introductory food that might easily available in a small, northern city?
(love this thread)
I get my fermented food in the form of fermented vegetables that are sold in the refrigerated section of my food co-op. Some common kinds are sauerkraut and kimchi (with the latter also sold in Asian markets). I am enjoying lacto-fermented green beans and "autumn salad" (mostly cabbage with some other veggies added), which are made by a local small farm producer, too. I also eat Greek yogurt fairly often (and have considered making it from scratch).
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:33 PM   #492
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Yes, since that post, I backed off NK. Take a couple epsom salt baths/week. And am improved in that respect. No serious cramps for a bit. Have used Morton lite salt for years which is 50% potassium and had previously kept the leg cramps at bay. The all over spasms was new since NK and since I wasn't losing weight there seemed no reason to continue down that path.
I'm glad you are having fewer problems with muscle cramps now, Cici. It's taking me a while to work through this thread, so a bunch of my responses are to posts that are maybe outdated now.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:23 PM   #493
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Sven, I love kimchi when I can find it. Here, I'm at the kefir and loving it. I'll keep my eyes open.
Sunday, I would LOVE to hear what Paul says about sirtuins and fasting length. I would be beyond the beyond if he felt 16 hours did the trick.
(Sorry Blonde, I forgot to answer that part of your question by saying I have no idea.)
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:50 PM   #494
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And Sunday, I'm all over the map about whether or not fasting has decreased my hunger. Love hearing answers to this one.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:50 PM   #495
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Cici, I am 3 inches shorter and I am another person who started out at 1800-1900 cals for UD, but as I lost I lowered that UD number. I lose very slowly normally. That is why I started digging around for a healthy method.

Which btw, Jaminet is not the only one who supports the idea that we will lose weight naturally by eating the right foods, most Paleo peeps believe this way as well. They all believe in some type of fasting, but that eating the right foods for your body's daily needs will get you to your perfect weight.
I really wish it were true for me that I would lose weight naturally by eating the right foods, but in my experience, I need to do more than that.

For 40 years, I was a vegetarian, and I ate very little junk food, no fast food, and almost no sugar; yet, despite exercise (I walk wherever I need to go) and limiting food intake (often eating only 1 meal a day), my weight crept up to be just under the "morbidly obese" category. I made a very sincere effort to lose weight when I turned fifty, working with a nutritionist and a personal trainer and exercising 2-3 hours a day on top of my usual walking. My nutritionist told me that I wasn't eating enough, so I upped the amount that I ate; after that she described my diet as "fabulously healthy." I also worked with a physician open to alternative medicine, and took various actions like adding supplements and detoxing from mercury. None of this led me to lose any weight, and I tried for about 9 months.

About a year ago, I read Gary Taubes' book and realized that I might have to severely limit carbs and give up being a vegetarian, since I had all the signs of metabolic syndrome/marked insulin resistence. I began following Atkins, and after a couple of months modified it to include just healthy food I prepared myself, with no frankenfoods--a primal approach (paleo with organic dairy). I was losing so slowly on that (1 pound a month) that I limited protein to do NK (which helped some) and then added JUDDD.

So now I do low carb/moderate protein/high fat, track and measure/weigh everything, stick to JUDDD rotation calories, and have learned about and implemented a lot of traditional health foods (as in "Nourishing Traditions"). Much of what is consistent with the PHD is what I've been eating for several months: liver, bonebroth, free-range duck eggs, organic non-starch vegetables, seaweed, wildcaught coldwater fish, greens, coconut oil and butter, pastured beef, fermented vegetables, Greek plain yogurt, organic pastured butter and cream, cold pressed nut oils, olive oil, flaxseeds, avocados, nuts, and raw milk cheese are the things I normally eat (and no grains, no starchy vegetables, no sweeteners of any kind, no preprepared/convenience foods). Even doing all that, I lose slowly.

Fortunately, I don't have any serious health problems and can afford to pay for very high quality healthy food, and I only have to cook for myself, so there are no temptations in my kitchen. I don't have problems with craving other kinds of food, and I never ate junk food regularly anyway. The main things I wish that I could add to my diet are more fruit and some starchy vegetables (beets, carrots, yams), but I'd rather be losing weight than eating those foods.

Sorry to be so long-winded, and I really hope that everyone else here finds that she can get to a healthy weight, just by following PHD recommendations, more or less, and eating within a limited time window.

Based on my history, I'll need to do more (maybe counting carbs and calories and doing JUDDD rotations the rest of my life), but I can live with that, so long as it allows me to get to and stay at a normal/non-obese weight, eventually. I'm following the PHD thread to see others' experience and to learn other useful things I can incorporate into my own plan--such as limiting my protein intake to an 8 hour window and eating fats with minimal or no protein if I eat outside that window. (I can do that. )
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:06 PM   #496
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I forgot to mention that when studying the new 8 hour diet, which is really the old, "Eat Stop Eat" or "LeanGains", I noticed that they concentrate on exercising first thing each morning while fasted. He says at the minimum 8 minutes. I have been doing 30 minutes of either weights or toning, but wish to add 30 minutes in the evening of walking/rebounding. I seem to think this is my best time to get the aerobic type exercise in.

These guys did not find muscle loss during this type fast, but I wonder if it is because they were doing fasted training?

Health Correlator: Muscle loss during short-term fasting

How To Do Intermittent Fasting | Intermittent Fasting | John Berardi

Intermittent Fasting E-book | Intermittent Fasting | John Berardi
The person who wrote "Secrets of a Health Metabolism" (Maria Emmerich?) also advises exercising first thing in the morning, before eating anything, to maximize fat loss.

Unfortunately, although I like to do cardio and resistence training, my weight loss seems to stop dead when I do either, so I'm sticking to walking, stretching, and very gentle qi gong and yoga/balance exercises for now. But I think that I'm unusual in this respect, and I don't want to discourage others from exercising. When I get closer to my goal (or at least am "overweight" rather than "obese"), I'll try exercising more again and see what happens.
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:24 PM   #497
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I know that when we follow the JUDDD rotations and ADF, that it shouldn't matter what foods we eat. Right? However, this has always been a real dilemma in my case, because I know this to be true, but when I see how little calories that I am really eating avg 975 daily, then I feel obligated to only eat optimally. Does this make sense in light of how I am following PHD/JUDDD combo?
I think this is a great point, Sunday. It's certainly an incentive for me to make every calorie count in terms of nutrition, because I'm not giving my body all that many calories to work with. And I eat things like liver, cilantro pesto, fermented veggies, bonebroth, spinach, giant salads, chard, and salmon not just because I "should"; this is what I find myself really wanting to eat. I get fed up with my weightloss-resistent body sometimes, but it's kinda smart in terms of wanting to be fed what is very high in nutrients.
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:41 PM   #498
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Marie, I wish so I could link the article that I just read about bone broth, but did you know that the best, very best broth is made from chickens and eggshells. I will cut and paste for you. My DD found a really good deal on hormone & anti-biotic free chicken at Target. She said that it is in the organic section, but it was about $3.00 more than the Tyson brand and she decided that it would be worth it for the broth. I buy my free range eggs at my local grocer, so I am very anxious to save the shells for my next chicken broth.
I see that the article you pasted, Sunday, mentioned putting eggshell membranes into bone broth. Has anyone here added eggshells to her bonebroth when cooking it up?

I scoop out the bones and big pieces of meat and onion before I chill bonebroth, but I don't strain it completely because I like a few little bits of meat in it (and I watch very carefully for bits of chicken bones). I wonder how I could put eggshells into my bone broth ... maybe tied into a bit of cheesecloth, like one does with bouquet garni, for easy removal?

Anyone have experience with bonebroth plus eggshells?
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:03 PM   #499
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I see that the article you pasted, Sunday, mentioned putting eggshell membranes into bone broth. Has anyone here added eggshells to her bonebroth when cooking it up?

I scoop out the bones and big pieces of meat and onion before I chill bonebroth, but I don't strain it completely because I like a few little bits of meat in it (and I watch very carefully for bits of chicken bones). I wonder how I could put eggshells into my bone broth ... maybe tied into a bit of cheesecloth, like one does with bouquet garni, for easy removal?

Anyone have experience with bonebroth plus eggshells?
I do. My mom made bone broth while I was growing up and she added the clean eggshells to each batch. She just threw hers in the pot, but I put mine in giant teabags I have that I bought for making bath products. Cheesecloth would do the same thing. I add a few to each batch along with a strip of kombu because of the significant amount of iodine it contains.
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:06 PM   #500
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Sunday, thanks for this tip. I am going to Target. I was getting so frustrated with my bone broth that I looked to see if I could buy it. Yes, there is a company that sells it ad uses organic grass fed bones and they send the stuff to your home frozen, but it comes to about $5.00 per 8 ounce cup. No can do!

For some reason, I don't get ANY gel from mine. I looked up why I might not be getting it and they say too much water or boiling it too long. The suggestion is to bring it just to boil and then simmer under the boiling point. I was doing it in my crockpot, so couldn't control that. I made some more in a pot on the stove, and still no gel. Do you get a good amount of gel?

I have trouble finding bones! I asked the butcher at Sprouts and he had 3 small round ones and they were $1.49. Okay good. I then went to a place called Windmill Farms that has lots of health foods. I asked the butcher at this store and he said to check out the freezer section. There were 3 large bones there. Each one was over $11.00 each. i remember a day when I could get a ton of bones for free, for the dog!

I know I am making this more difficult than it needs to be!
Hmmm, I think I've always gotten my chicken broth to gel, once it cools. Are you adding apple cider vinegar and salt along with filtered water? Simmering for at least 6 hours (preferably more)? Is the crockpot temperature high enough that the broth is actually on a low simmer, and not just warm water?

One time I made beef broth that was only partially jelled, and my guess was that I hadn't cooked it long enough/down enough. But it usually works.

Maybe roasting the bones also helps with bringing out the gelatin, as well as deepening the flavor? I roast bones (or parts, such as chicken and turkey wings, with bones) for an hour at 400 degrees before making broth (turning once). I'm sorry you are having so much trouble.
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:14 PM   #501
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I do. My mom made bone broth while I was growing up and she added the clean eggshells to each batch. She just threw hers in the pot, but I put mine in giant teabags I have that I bought for making bath products. Cheesecloth would do the same thing. I add a few to each batch along with a strip of kombu because of the significant amount of iodine it contains.
Thanks, Beverly! Adding the kombu is a great idea. I'll add that to the broth I'm planning to make tomorrow, and start saving my eggshells. (I eat organic free-range duck eggs, which are luscious and raised by someone I know slightly; I'm sure her ducks are very well cared for.)
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:16 PM   #502
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Hmmm, I think I've always gotten my chicken broth to gel, once it cools. Are you adding apple cider vinegar and salt along with filtered water? Simmering for at least 6 hours (preferably more)? Is the crockpot temperature high enough that the broth is actually on a low simmer, and not just warm water?

One time I made beef broth that was only partially jelled, and my guess was that I hadn't cooked it long enough/down enough. But it usually works.

Maybe roasting the bones also helps with bringing out the gelatin, as well as deepening the flavor? I roast bones (or parts, such as chicken and turkey wings, with bones) for an hour at 400 degrees before making broth (turning once). I'm sorry you are having so much trouble.
I do add ACV and salt and use filtered water. I cook it over 24 hours. I think, according to someone who told me this, that the crockpot could be too hot. She said I could put an empty tuna can under the crockpot to lift it a bit to lower the temp. Even on low, it boils hard. She said using too much water or boiling to hard can cause this. Most of the time I use the chicken bones from a roasted chicken.

Last time I found giant turkey wings, roasted those, and used those in my broth, and I got a beautiful gelatin. Problem is, they don't often have turkey wings at either of my stores. But they made a delicious broth and I was thrilled with all the gelatin.

Thanks for helping me problem solve this! I think the joints in the wings may be a solution.
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:20 PM   #503
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Thanks, Beverly! Adding the kombu is a great idea. I'll add that to the broth I'm planning to make tomorrow, and start saving my eggshells. (I eat organic free-range duck eggs, which are luscious and raised by someone I know slightly; I'm sure her ducks are very well cared for.)
I wish I had access to those duck eggs. My brother raises them and I had fresh duck eggs at his house. OMG soooo wonderful. He also has bee hives and taps his maple trees and makes syrup. A real pioneer type guy.
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:27 PM   #504
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I have been using Spectrum's made with OO, but found a paleo recipe and would love to try it, w/ flaxseed & OO. Only thing is, I worry about how long it would stay fresh? I guess just make a small amount and then maybe it can be used faster.

I have never heard of rice bran oil. Now, I am going to go look for some.
Supposedly, if you add a couple of tablespoons of whey (from draining non-Greek yogurt with live cultures, such as Nancy's brand, into a bowl through cheesecloth), the homemade mayo will keep longer. If you don't add whey, I think it's supposed to keep a couple of weeks in the fridge.

I just checked "The Naked Foods Cookbook," and the recipe there says if you add a Tablespoon of whey, the mayo will keep for "several months."

I really need to try making my own mayo. I have light olive oil, avocado oil, and macademia nut oil, which are all supposed to be mild enough to make good mayo, and I have a recipe. I think I was traumatized by mayo that didn't set, decades ago, and haven't tried making it again, ever since. I end up substituting organic full-fat sour cream for mayo, to avoid eating the store kind with polyunsaturated fats.
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:31 PM   #505
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I do add ACV and salt and use filtered water. I cook it over 24 hours. I think, according to someone who told me this, that the crockpot could be too hot. She said I could put an empty tuna can under the crockpot to lift it a bit to lower the temp. Even on low, it boils hard. She said using too much water or boiling to hard can cause this. Most of the time I use the chicken bones from a roasted chicken.

Last time I found giant turkey wings, roasted those, and used those in my broth, and I got a beautiful gelatin. Problem is, they don't often have turkey wings at either of my stores. But they made a delicious broth and I was thrilled with all the gelatin.

Thanks for helping me problem solve this! I think the joints in the wings may be a solution.
I really hope that your broth turns out from now on. I've started putting chicken feet into my chicken or turkey broth, and I think that they add gelatin, too. (When the broth is done, I fish them out and don't eat them, though I guess they are considered quite edible in Chinese cuisine.)
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:36 PM   #506
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Looks like Spectrum's has a minimal amount of soybean oil? Is there no such thing as OO or EVCO mayo? Flaxseed oil is a seed oil too. I am now wondering how one would make it without anything but OO or evco. I don't thnk I will be eating much mayo.
I picked up some light olive oil for mayo, and also macademia nut oil and avocado oil as possible mayo ingredients. I also have some grapeseed oil that has a very neutral taste that I might try, but I am worried that grapeseed oil may not be especially healthy (machine processed rather than cold-pressed).
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:41 PM   #507
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Wow Sven! You have been busy!

I think we may be twins. It is going to take me a bit to catch up to everything you have posted, but as you were posting, I was reading up on ***, Mercola, Ori Hofmekler, Brad Pilon, Martin Berkhan and other IF supporters. I can't get past the fact that women do not have the same results that men do. Unfortunately. Although I believe fasting is very good for our body, I can't help but believe that not every person gets the same benefit. Some women suffer. And some women will not lose. I have watched our JUDDD budds as well as many other IF'ers and see the same exact complaints. Some women flounder on IF.

Sven, I am impressed with everything you have done for your health. Great research and your dedication to finding what works is undeniably resolute. I think your perseverance reminds me of the determination that I have felt since I began this weight loss & health journey 5 years ago. I can't say that I have done as much as you have, but I knew that when I began fasting, it was only a very small piece of the puzzle. I knew that I needed to eat the right foods and whether it was forever giving up wheat, sugar, or carbs, I needed to know that it was not only going to help me lose the rest of this excess weight, but in the process bring me good health. Maybe perfect health.

I am not fearful of potato or starchy veggies/fruit as much as I am fearful of not obtaining good health and longevity. Weight plays a big role in being healthy and especially in women. So, as you probably have heard me gripe, my weight doesn't budge at times and in fact, it really likes staying steady. In many ways, though that is a huge relief. Before JUDDD, I would be so confused when my weight kept creeping upward. My losses are so slow that I have perfected maintenance on 950 calories, well, that is actually the average of 1600/300.

I hope that you will stick around here and let us in on anything you learn, as we are all trying to learn PHD and it takes a while to really grab a hold and digest much of his teaching. Please read his website and go to the Q&A. I find that he does answer questions. I tried to ask a question last week for Dawn that never was answered, but I think I may have put too much extra in the question to make it confusing.

Also, please don't lose hope. I saw and read about Erp (who is 77 and discovered PHD) she lost down to her goal weight and is finally in the best health that she has ever been in. Jaminet uses her as an example quite a bit and she reports back with some of the knowledge that she has gained.
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:53 PM   #508
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And Sunday, I'm all over the map about whether or not fasting has decreased my hunger. Love hearing answers to this one.
I think this is a sign. I have read so much tonight that I will have to come back tomorrow with the exact quotes and I may need to pass you the links in code. Why is it we figure these things out after we have struggled for so long??? Why can't we just get the light bulb moment right as soon as it is needed?
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Old 02-02-2013, 09:10 PM   #509
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[I] I will look into making pesto. I was thinking on the mayo, would rice bran oil work with a portion of EVOO? I am willing to play with it and see what I get.
Friends and I make and freeze pesto every year. We go to a farmer's market in early August and buy bunches of fresh basil, spend the day washing, cleaning, drying and grinding it up in a food processor with olive oil and pine nuts and a little salt, and freeze it in small containers. It's not hard to make, but it is kind of labor intensive and expensive to make, especially during winter months.

I make cilantro pesto and eat 1 T. every up day because my body tends to hold onto mercury, and cilantro and selenium (found in some nuts) are a natural detox for mercury. And cilantro pesto is tasty, too. I combine 1/3 cup raw brazil nuts, 1/3 cup raw sunflower seeds, and 1/3 cup of raw pumpkin seeds with 2 cups chopped cilantro and 1/2 cup flaxseed oil and some salt in a food processor; puree; store in fridge in dark covered container. Cilantro is available year-round and is cheaper than fresh basil, which are other advantages of using it in place of basil.

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Old 02-02-2013, 09:23 PM   #510
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Sven-

I am going to try your recipe for the cilantro pesto. I eat cilantro regularly for the mercury detox. The pesto sounds more fun than eating it plain.

Regarding my chocolate question and sugar and amount, I found the answer. In case there is anyone else interested-- I'm on my way to winning a Nobel prize!! I hope

Chocolate: What is the Optimal Dose?
Posted by Paul Jaminet on November 3, 2012


Bret asked us how much chocolate is needed for good health:

I have a question about having dark chocolate daily. Does it need to be every day or what is the mininum grams per day. I have been having around 35g a day of 70% but I wondered if less would be ok or not having it at all.



Chocolate Is Not Considered Essential … Yet

Chocolate has not yet been recognized by the Food and Nutrition Board of the National Academies as an essential nutrient. We haven’t either: Our food plate lists it among “pleasure foods,” which are healthful but optional.

However, we are becoming ever-more chocolate friendly. In the new edition of our book, we list chocolate among our “supplemental foods” which we recommend consuming regularly. But our suggested dose is “as desired.” Perhaps we should narrow that down a little.

Chocolate Against Cardiovascular Disease

We’ve previously warned of the danger of chocolate deficiency, based on a systematic review that found: “The highest levels of chocolate consumption were associated with a 37% reduction in cardiovascular disease and a 29% reduction in stroke.”

Here’s a visual summary of their findings:

Chocolate Against Diabetes


Bret was concerned about the sugar in chocolate, but if this is a problem, it’s outweighed by the benefits of chocolate. A Japanese study found that the rate of diabetes was reduced by 30% in those who consume the most chocolate.

Chocolate Against Dementia and In Support of Cognitive Function


Several studies have found that chocolate consumption reduces risk of dementia and enhances performance on tests of cognitive function.

One of them found that cognitive function was optimized with a relatively low dose of chocolate – ten grams per day:

The associations between intake of these foodstuffs and cognition were dose dependent, with maximum effect at intakes of approximately 10 g/d for chocolate and approximately 75-100 mL/d for wine, but approximately linear for tea.

The other found that cognition improved with intake of cocoa flavanols up to quite high doses – elderly given 1 g/day cocoa flavanols performed significantly better on cognitive tests than those given lower doses.

Unfortunately I don’t know what fraction of chocolate is made of flavanols. I’m guessing it’s not more than a few percent, in which case this research suggests the optimal dose of chocolate may be 50 g/day or more.

Chocolate in Support of Circadian Rhythms


Most authors attribute the benefits of chocolate to their flavanols, which are thought to improve endothelial function and increase blood flow to the brain, among other effects.

However, there are other active compounds in chocolate, include peptides that interact with the opioid receptor. The opioid receptor has a role in circadian rhythms, which is one reason low-dose naltrexone (which blocks opioid function at night) works. It’s possible that eating chocolate during the day may support circadian rhythms via opioid receptor stimulation, especially if the peptides can reach the systemic circulation.

Indirect evidence that this may be beneficial comes from a Russian study in which exorphins (opioid receptor ligands) were injected into rats:

The chronic intraperitoneal administration of the peptide at the same dose of 5 mg/kg significantly increased exploratory activity, decreased anxiety, and improved learning.

I don’t know how much chocolate would have to be eaten to achieve a similar exorphin dose in humans, but I imagine it’s large.

Chocolate in Support of Nobel Prizes

So how shall we resolve the issue of optimal chocolate dose? For me, the decisive evidence comes from a recent study by Franz Messerli published in the New England Journal of Medicine.

Based on chocolate’s support for cognitive function, he decided to see if chocolate consumption was related to another measure of cognition – Nobel Prize awards per capita. He counted Nobel Prizes and compared them to the recipient’s country’s chocolate consumption. These were his findings

There is clearly a strong correlation. The correlation coefficient is .79; p < 0.0001.

The correlation coefficient if Sweden is removed increases to .86 – which is suspicious:

Given its per capita chocolate consumption of 6.4 kg per year, we would predict that Sweden should have produced a total of about 14 Nobel laureates, yet we observe 32. Considering that in this instance the observed number exceeds the expected number by a factor of more than 2, one cannot quite escape the notion that either the Nobel Committee in Stockholm has some inherent patriotic bias when assessing the candidates for these awards or, perhaps, that the Swedes are particularly sensitive to chocolate, and even minuscule amounts greatly enhance their cognition.

Those dastardly Swedes! Giving themselves more Nobel Prizes than their chocolate consumption warrants!

But I apologize, I’ve been diverted. The key point is, is there an optimum chocolate consumption?

the dose–response curve reveals no apparent ceiling on the number of Nobel laureates at the highest chocolate-dose level of 11 kg per year.

11 kg/yr is an average of 30 g/day. So benefits are still increasing at that dose.

Of course, this was only a population level study. We still need to measure the doses in individual laureates to gain confidence. But anecdotally, there appears to be a correlation:

“I attribute essentially all my success to the very large amount of chocolate that I consume,” said Eric Cornell, an American physicist who received the Nobel Prize in 2001. “Personally I feel that milk chocolate makes you stupid. Now dark chocolate is the way to go. It’s one thing if you want like a medicine or chemistry Nobel Prize…but if you want a physics Nobel Prize it pretty much has got to be dark chocolate.”

Dark chocolate is, indeed, the PHD-approved form of this highly beneficial food.

Conclusion


This dose-response data might not be strong enough to define an RDA, but I’m going to take a stand: Bret’s intake of 35 g/day is healthy. Indeed, it’s right in line with the Nobel Prize-maximizing chocolate intake of the Swiss.

In regard to your last question, Bret – can you eat less chocolate, or none at all – the answer is clear. Yes, you can. But you must accept the consequences. You probably won’t be winning the next Nobel Prize for Physics.
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