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Old 01-29-2013, 09:42 AM   #361
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So, pork broth isn't the best due to Omega 6?
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:10 AM   #362
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Is Pork Still Dangerous?
Did Leviticus get it right? Pork may still be dangerous.

Published on February 8, 2012 by Paul & Shou-Ching JaminetIf

If we were to rank popular meats by their healthfulness, the order would be (1) fish and shellfish, (2) ruminants (beef, lamb, goat), and (3) birds (duck, chicken, turkey). In last place would be pork.

Lots of technical info provided here.

Conclusion
There are remarkably strong correlations between pork consumption and liver disease, liver cancer, and multiple sclerosis.

What can be behind those relationships? The relatively high omega-6 fat content of pork may be a contributing factor, but it can't be the whole story. It seems there is something else in pork that makes pork consumption risky.

What is it about pork that is so dangerous, and what does it mean for our dietary advice? That will be the topic of our next post.
Sunday, that is my take on it.
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:29 AM   #363
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Conclusion (Part 2)
So let’s add up the evidence and see where it leads:

First, the only potentially dangerous component of fresh natural pork, omega-6 fats, can’t account for the data.
Second, processed pork, which has other dangerous compounds like N-nitroso compounds, actually appears safer than fresh pork.
Third, fiber is protective against pork dangers.
To me these suggest that an infectious pathogen is the cause we are looking for.

Consider: Traditional methods of processing pork, such as salting, smoking, and curing, are antimicrobial. They were developed to help preserve pork from pathogens. So if processed pork is less risky than fresh pork, we should look for a pathogen that is reduced in number by processing.

If a pathogen is the cause, then it makes sense that fiber would be protective. Fiber increases gut bacterial populations. Gut bacteria get “first crack” at food and release proteases and other compounds that can kill pathogens. Also, a large gut bacterial population makes for a vigilant immune system at the gut barrier, making it more likely that pathogens will fail to enter the body. The gut flora are a valuable part of the gut’s immune defenses.

In my next post I’ll look at the pathogens that can infect both pigs and humans, and see (1) if there is a likely candidate for the association of pork consumption with liver cirrhosis, liver cancer, and multiple sclerosis, and (2) how we can best protect ourselves against this threat.
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We started this series with a look at remarkably strong correlations between pork consumption and liver cirrhosis mortality, liver cancer, and multiple sclerosis (Pork: Did Leviticus 11:7 Have It Right?, Feb 8, 2012). In Part 2, we looked at omega-6 fats in industrial pork meat and toxins in processed pork products as possible causes (The Trouble with Pork, Part 2, Feb 15, 2012).

That second post left us with several clues that some pathogen (or pathogens) that (a) infects both pigs and humans and (b) can be transmitted from pigs to humans via the eating of pork, is responsible for the disease associations. These clues include:

The risk is higher for fresh pork than processed pork. Processed pork is generally cured or smoked, both steps that are anti-microbial.
Eating fiber, which increases gut bacterial populations and enhances immune vigilance of the gut, is protective.
The disease risk is specifically associated with two organs – the central nervous system (multiple sclerosis) and the liver (cirrhosis, hepatocellular carcinoma). Pathogens are more likely than other pork components to have tissue specificity.
The Trouble with Pork: Part 3 published Febuary 22, 2012 is about pathogens and looks hard at Hepatitis E. No blood should be eaten. Sausage which mixes parts with blood may be the most dangerous. Fresh pork should be rinsed and cooked well. It is kind of a scary read.

If you go to Part 3 you will find the previous Parts 1 and 2 also there.

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Old 01-29-2013, 10:59 AM   #364
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Remember when we spoke about not wanting to be afraid of food?

I hate when that happens.

Bacon is one thing I adore too. Guess, if I want Perfect Health. Don't want liver disease.
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:01 AM   #365
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I'm just jumping out of lurkdom here to mark my spot. I've been reading the thread for a couple days, and am loving it!
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:01 AM   #366
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WOW!!!:

We've never eaten a lot of pork. The obligatory ham at Easter, occasional bacon and occasionally a small pork loin or pork chops on the grill. I like it, it's not my favorite meat by any means and I could live without it. DH would have a hard time swearing off the occasional BLT. Again, like Beverly, the amount of conflicting info boggles the brain. Like chicken being too high in 06. Like chicken being really good for you. Red meat is bad. Eat red meat. So I guess I'll keep eating chicken and occasionally pork (the new white meat). I'll hardly ever eat steak, not because it's bad but because it's expensive and I always ruin it. And I'll keep reading and listening and hopefully learning.....
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:31 AM   #367
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I hear you. It makes me glad this woe limits protein so it is easier to cut back based on quantity alone. I am buying more beef and fish in spite of sticker shock because we don't need so much of it as once thought. More eggs and making them organic/free range when available. Also, defatting chicken and pork in favor of getting fats elsewhere. We seem to live in a "pick your poison" world. I think variety helps to protect us from accumulation of too many of any one toxin but the infectious stuff is a crap shoot. I was probably eating a pound of pork/week on NK but now will cut that way down.
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Old 01-29-2013, 12:31 PM   #368
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I'm just jumping out of lurkdom here to mark my spot. I've been reading the thread for a couple days, and am loving it!
Welcome Melissa! Please jump in any time and teach us. We are all learning this plan together.
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Old 01-29-2013, 03:39 PM   #369
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Oh no... not pork too. I think I am "scared straight" and may not eat it again. At least knowingly. I don't eat a lot of it, but I do eat bacon and sometimes ham.
I was looking for a way to get the dreaded liver in me and saw a roll of braunschweiger at Sprouts. I remember eating that as a kid, and thought maybe I could force that in me. But it is made with pork livers. I sure that is on the verge of "dangerous"! LOL

I am going to have to change things a bit at a time. Slowly she goes... step by step... inch by inch.

I am drinking the turmeric almond milk right now and I love it so much. I hope I don't find out it causes some awful disease.

I didn't do as well on the 16/8 today. Made it to about 14.5. Adding the coconut oil to my coffee in the AM helps hold me over though.
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:12 PM   #370
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I heard rumblings about dropping pork in the treatment of psoriatic arthritis years ago. Amazing to hear it again. Sounds as though bacon is safer than uncured slabs of pork. This makes me happy.
Funny. I read the four rules of eating by ????? (referred to by Cindy). You know the ones?
Eat when you're hungry
Eat exactly what you're hungry for
Stop when you're full
Rats. Can't remember number four. (If I could master the first three, I'd be laughing.)
The long winded point of this is that as long as I'm functioning at a level of body listening that transcends Fruit Loops, chocolate eggs, and chips, the PHD diet pretty much describes exactly what I want to eat when I'm hungry.
Which makes me feel comfortable, normal, and healthy. Yay!
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:16 PM   #371
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Paul McKenna's rules.
Last one is eat consciously and enjoy every bite.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:44 PM   #372
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Paul McKenna's rules.
Last one is eat consciously and enjoy every bite.
I like these 4 rules. This is the same that Robin Woodall from Weight Loss Apocalypse believes and advises. I began watching my hunger scale on Up Day so that I would only eat when hungry and learned quite fast that I don't eat near what my UP day allowance is. So, the best thing about this is that I rarely have an UUAD and that more than likely happens because we went out for dinner and one meal consisted of 1500 cals or more.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:48 PM   #373
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Also, what is it about eating out that causes me to go ahead and eat way past my hunger scale? I know that I can take it home. I know that I can leave it there. It is the one reason that I truly don't desire to go out much. Does anyone else feel this way?
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:13 AM   #374
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Also, what is it about eating out that causes me to go ahead and eat way past my hunger scale? I know that I can take it home. I know that I can leave it there. It is the one reason that I truly don't desire to go out much. Does anyone else feel this way?
I am new to this thread so forgive me jumping in here but I just had to respond to this.

OMG!! This is soooo me I eat way too much also, even knowing that I can have it tomorrow, take it home, yada, yada, yada. I also saw on Dr Oz the other day, one of McKenna's tricks was to blindfold clients and have them eat. Those few who Dr Oz tried it on, who were in the audience that day, said they ate half of what was on their plate. While when they regularly would eat the whole plate of food (whatever food it was, didn't matter WHAT food it was), when blindfolded they were SATISFIED with eating just 1/2 the plate. Very eye opening for them indeed! And a way to teach yourself the concept of the hunger scale. And it showed that you can do it with whatever food you are eating---you don't have to eat low carb, gluten free, wheat free or whatever. Of course you can, but you don't HAVE to.

Again, hope you don't mind me chiming in here
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:33 AM   #375
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Welcome Melissa! Please jump in any time and teach us. We are all learning this plan together.
Thanks so much, sunday! I absolutely love your posts!
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:52 AM   #376
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I love Paul McKenna and have one of his programs on my nook. Yes, eat when your hungry (I learned that doing JUDDD) eat only what you love (WW, use those points wisely) stop when full...still working on that, and I do enjoy every bite, mainly because I've been cutting my portions way down. A good trick for that is using a smaller plate and that really does work! I've long traded off my pint sized soup bowls for 1/2 pint shallow bowls. I also bought a couple of beautiful square dessert plates at Pier 1 and I use those for dinner plates with DH. Fill 'em, feels like I've got a lot of food.

Re: eating out...now that's weird for me. I eat WAY more alone. When I'm out with DH or a friend, I feel satisfied much sooner. I enjoy my food much more. I think it's because I eat more slowly. I really don't like to eat by myself (probably because I eat too much) I'm out of touch with the rest of the U.S. but in California 'calorie counts' are now required on the menu in restaurants. Olive Garden 'all you can eat' soup salad and bread sticks used to be 3, 4 refills of everything (I'm a server there). People have slowed down on the refills! The Chicken and Shrimp Carbonara has something like 2,000 calories when you add in bread and salad!! Yikes!

Welcome Melissa and Dawn!

As always, Love this thread. Lots of great discussion.

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Old 01-30-2013, 08:49 AM   #377
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Also, what is it about eating out that causes me to go ahead and eat way past my hunger scale? I know that I can take it home. I know that I can leave it there. It is the one reason that I truly don't desire to go out much. Does anyone else feel this way?
Yes I do feel this way. I make poor choices when I eat out and way too many calories. Like Blonde said, we have calories listed on our menu items and it is hard not to go way overboard at a restaurant. I do try to go for the healthier choices now however. When I saw my favorite ribs dinner at the Elephant Bar was close to 2,000 calories, I almost freaked out. I felt I was eating to my hunger scale with that one.

When I go to a Mexican restaurant, I go up up and away.The combination of a basket of hot tortilla chips and a yummy Margarita can set me off. To me, it is because it tastes so good!! At home, I make plainer foods made more to feed my health and well being. The restaurants are entertainment, a time to party and have fun. And eat. Eating is about way more than hunger to me. I know if I ate to my hunger levels, weight wouldn't be an issue. Psychologically food does represent other things to me: love, comfort, fun, connection with people, celebration. Those are harder issues for me to tackle.
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:58 AM   #378
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Beverly, thinking about this made me realize, perhaps because I work in a restaurant and see prepared dishes all the time, it isn't an issue. But, when you started talking about going to a Mexican Restaurant, you had me at Margarita. Who can resist hot chips and tequila? With queso. Followed by enchiladas w/ sour cream...and fried ice cream? 5000 calories later......
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Old 01-30-2013, 09:45 AM   #379
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I feel really lucky with this one. Eating out just isn't as much fun for me as doing all the other stuff there is to do out there: theatre, hiking, skiing, biking, etc., etc. somehow I never linked eating out with fun. Drag for my lovely man.
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Old 01-30-2013, 09:51 AM   #380
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I feel really lucky with this one. Eating out just isn't as much fun for me as doing all the other stuff there is to do out there: theatre, hiking, skiing, biking, etc., etc. somehow I never linked eating out with fun. Drag for my lovely man.
I wish I were more like you. I love to eat and I just love food it is how I got to where I am today, though It also seems that the more I diet the more obsessive I have become. But not obsessive in a good way, in a binge way. Not good at all I have to find that happy medium and that is hard. I wish I could just sit back and relax about it all, my kids would love that and deserve that. But it is hard!!! One day, though. One day it will all come together for me. I still have hope.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:43 AM   #381
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Beverly, thinking about this made me realize, perhaps because I work in a restaurant and see prepared dishes all the time, it isn't an issue. But, when you started talking about going to a Mexican Restaurant, you had me at Margarita. Who can resist hot chips and tequila? With queso. Followed by enchiladas w/ sour cream...and fried ice cream? 5000 calories later......
I know, right? Someone who understands... hahaha

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I feel really lucky with this one. Eating out just isn't as much fun for me as doing all the other stuff there is to do out there: theatre, hiking, skiing, biking, etc., etc. somehow I never linked eating out with fun. Drag for my lovely man.
And that is why you look like you do, and I look like I do! You are very lucky!
When you get older, a lot of your family and friends can't do those active physical things with you. Well heck, I can't ski any more. Used to love it. But there are lots of physical limitations and it leaves more sedentary things to do like theater and movies but followed up by eating out. But when we go to movies and theaters, part of the fun for everyone is talking about it afterward over a meal or dessert. I like the other things like theater and riding bikes and walks on the beach and all, and think they are fun too, but in my world, food gets attached to it. I am in a retired women's group and I try to get the activities to be more active, but I tend to get voted down. Next monday, the group decided to meet at the a French Bakery at 10:30. I looked at the menu, and there is little there I can have. French almond croissants, chocolate croissants and lots of other pastries. I absolutely will not eat that stuff and will enjoy the chit chat over coffee, but that has been an example of my world lately.

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Old 01-30-2013, 04:01 PM   #382
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:13 AM   #383
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And that is why you look like you do, and I look like I do! You are very lucky!
When you get older, a lot of your family and friends can't do those active physical things with you. Well heck, I can't ski any more. Used to love it. But there are lots of physical limitations and it leaves more sedentary things to do like theater and movies but followed up by eating out. But when we go to movies and theaters, part of the fun for everyone is talking about it afterward over a meal or dessert. I like the other things like theater and riding bikes and walks on the beach and all, and think they are fun too, but in my world, food gets attached to it. I am in a retired women's group and I try to get the activities to be more active, but I tend to get voted down. Next monday, the group decided to meet at the a French Bakery at 10:30. I looked at the menu, and there is little there I can have. French almond croissants, chocolate croissants and lots of other pastries. I absolutely will not eat that stuff and will enjoy the chit chat over coffee, but that has been an example of my world lately.
My guess is that I've lived in small towns or cities for the last twenty years, where there are no good croissants. The food is better at home.
And I wish I felt the same (take it or leave it) about the food at home!
Hey B, I often speak at a retired women's group here. They are amazing. They walk outside, do weights inside, and have speakers. They also have book clubs, a choir, organized travel - you name it. They lobby and raise money for excellent causes in the city. People move here to be a part of his group. Powerful women.
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Old 01-31-2013, 05:04 AM   #384
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Kristin, Your life is my dream. You live so close to nature, beauty, and adventure.

Well, I bought my grassfed beef liver yesterday for 2.71 per lb. I left it on my kitchen counter to thaw and fell asleep, so when I woke up this morning it was completely thawed. It was room temp, do you think it is still okay???
I have it soaking in milk and then will cook.

I think my plan is to slice it in to bite size pieces and freeze and only take a small amount each day. As suggested by the one PHDer who wrote in to PHD. Is this a good idea? My chocolate lab came to investigate so it must be quite aromatic even uncooked.
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Old 01-31-2013, 05:18 AM   #385
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I wish I were more like you. I love to eat and I just love food it is how I got to where I am today, though It also seems that the more I diet the more obsessive I have become. But not obsessive in a good way, in a binge way. Not good at all I have to find that happy medium and that is hard. I wish I could just sit back and relax about it all, my kids would love that and deserve that. But it is hard!!! One day, though. One day it will all come together for me. I still have hope.
Dawn, I believe you will find that as you get further into eating the PHD way, that the obsession is focused primarly on eating to your health.
It is a fun plan and the longer I do it, I have lost the desire to eat unhealthy. Back when I began searching for weight loss ideas about 5 years ago, I ate without thought about what the nutrition in my meal contained. I can honestly say that I didn't spend much time on the outside aisles and spent my majority of groceries on boxes and cans. Or eating on the run. I wish that I had taught my children this plan.

I think by starting with the small things so it doesn't seem so overwhelming is a great idea. I look back and remember at all of the times that we made the big pots of soup and how my two kids would be so happy. The days they would come home from school anticipating some home cooked stew.

And the best part of PHD, is chocolate and wine are on the apple. Along with nuts & dairy.
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Old 01-31-2013, 05:22 AM   #386
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Sunday, come visit some time.
Your liver sounds delicious. I'd fry it with heaps of onion and a wee bit of anti-microbial bacon, but tiny pieces every day sound good, too. Wish I could find grass fed, here. Let us know how it goes.
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Old 01-31-2013, 05:23 AM   #387
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For those of you who Reddit, Paul Jaminet will be doing an AMA (ask me anything) March 5th at noon EST
Oh, good! I will mark the calendar. Let's brainstorm a few questions to try and have answered. I don't know why my "Chillblains" question for Dawn was never answered? I think I should go back and try and condense it, because it was rather long.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:33 AM   #388
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Yesterday, one good day. Good sleep last night. Today, calmness.

Repeat.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:59 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by cici52 View Post
Yesterday, one good day. Good sleep last night. Today, calmness.

Repeat.
Yep! I am calm and hope that this continues.
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:07 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Joyjoy View Post
My guess is that I've lived in small towns or cities for the last twenty years, where there are no good croissants. The food is better at home.
And I wish I felt the same (take it or leave it) about the food at home!
Hey B, I often speak at a retired women's group here. They are amazing. They walk outside, do weights inside, and have speakers. They also have book clubs, a choir, organized travel - you name it. They lobby and raise money for excellent causes in the city. People move here to be a part of his group. Powerful women.
Kristin that sounds like a great group. I have put forward the idea to work for good causes- it is something I have done my whole life. I think I can bring the group on board. I am going to take your suggestions to the group for reinforcement. It is amazing people move there to be in the group! What part of Canada do you live in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunday View Post
Kristin, Your life is my dream. You live so close to nature, beauty, and adventure.

Well, I bought my grassfed beef liver yesterday for 2.71 per lb. I left it on my kitchen counter to thaw and fell asleep, so when I woke up this morning it was completely thawed. It was room temp, do you think it is still okay???
I have it soaking in milk and then will cook.

I think my plan is to slice it in to bite size pieces and freeze and only take a small amount each day. As suggested by the one PHDer who wrote in to PHD. Is this a good idea? My chocolate lab came to investigate so it must be quite aromatic even uncooked.
I am sure your liver is fine. I read the idea to freeze it and take small amounts and think it is a great idea. I still haven't come around to the idea at all, but maybe at some point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunday View Post
Oh, good! I will mark the calendar. Let's brainstorm a few questions to try and have answered. I don't know why my "Chillblains" question for Dawn was never answered? I think I should go back and try and condense it, because it was rather long.
Good idea! I did a search and didn't come up with what Jaminet thinks about using xylitol, erythritol, and whey protein powder? Anyone come across that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cici52 View Post
Yesterday, one good day. Good sleep last night. Today, calmness.

Repeat.
Excellent. One day at a time.

I have been having some good progress. The fasting each day is going really well. I have done well on eliminating wheat and sugar and vege oils for the most part. I did have some oat fiber. I also bought those wonderful roasted beet chips and taro chips, and green beans you can get at Sprouts. They cost a lot, but I love them. Then I read they are roasted with canola oil.
It was one thing that was quick and easy. I know I can make my own, but I don't have the time to make all the stuff I am making as is. And beets are so messy.

Also been doing more fermented foods with the sauerkraut, kefir, coconut water kefir, fermented veges, and daily bone broth. Plus I have changed up some of my supplements. And back to adding coconut oil to my coffee.

The biggest thing I have noticed is that I am satisfied with my food for the day. No cravings for sweets and no desire to binge. THAT in and of itself is a wonderful feeling. It feels , well... normal!
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