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Old 06-18-2011, 12:07 PM   #1
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Seriously Carnivore: Support Thread for Lifetime Carnivores

If at least 95% of your calories come from animals, and you would like to have some online company, to discuss various health, scientific, metabolic, or other aspects of a carnivorous diet, here is a thread.


I eat beef, beef fat, offal, fish, egg yolks, butter/cream, herbs and use a few vegetables as condiments. I drink tea, decaf coffee, and purified water.

I avoid alcohol, coffee (except for decaf), chocolate, nightshades, egg whites, FODMAPs, oxalates, fruit (except for lemons and cucumbers), nuts/seeds/their oils, legumes, grains.

Am coming up on my one-year anniversary of eating this way. My health has improved tremendously. I find it a simple, grand WOE.


I read Dr. Kurt Harris' blog, Archevore,
Dr. Peter Dobromylskyj's blog, Hyperlipid,
and Dr. Emily Dean's blog, Evolutionary Psychiatry.

You can tell I am interested in good science and clean thinking.

Hope to "see" some other serious-minded carnivores here.

Best wishes to you.
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Old 06-19-2011, 08:46 AM   #2
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Hi Auntie Em. I am a carnivore and avid fan of Kurt Harris and Peter Dobromylskyj's blogs. I also enjoy Track Your Plaque and Fathead. It's refreshing to see someone else who appreciates the importance of understanding nutrition as it relates to good health. Thanks for starting this thread!
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Old 06-19-2011, 08:50 AM   #3
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Auntie Em, Whenever I see your name on a thread I have to read it. You can always be counted on to post something interesting and/or informative. I find a seriously carnivore way of eating to be very doable. However, my seriously carnivore way would include pork and the occasional avocado. I would also happily substitute the cream for Greek yogurt. If an occasional square of Lindt 85% chocolate also found its way into my mouth would this still constitute a serious carnivore way of eating?

I like the idea of Kwasniewski (I think I misspelled that), but find finding the correct ratios very off-putting--although I follow the threads here and on another board religiously.

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Old 06-19-2011, 09:36 AM   #4
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Hi Pat and Teri. It's nice to have you post. Thank you for your kind thoughts.

Pat, I can't answer your question for you, as I can only state what I think and my opinions/preferences. We each have to answer to whatever that highest sense of being true to ourselves is, and answer to the cleanest science we can find.

My own view is that indulgences cost us, regardless of what those indulgences are. And sometimes the cost doesn't become obvious until years after we indulged.

My intention for this thread is to have folks post who eat at least 95% of their calories from animal parts, and who eat cleanly and think for themselves. People who are not eating this way can find a different support thread, of which there are many.

What the 5% of non-animal food is will be different for each one of us.

I don't eat avocados because of the high PUFA content and because they are FODMAPs. They certainly don't give the nutrient density for the calories that offal does. To me, they are also a waste of calories.

I don't eat chocolate because I consider it a Candy Cigarette and because the glycoalkaloids are allergy triggers for me. Here is Dr. Harris' blog post, "Smoking Candy Cigarettes".

For me, this WOE is about being as healthy as I can and as responsible as I can. I very much agree with Dr. Harris about not playing along with self-indulgence and supporting those frames of reference and industries which do not have real health and personal responsibility as first priority.

If I lived where I could hunt, eat wild, or at least all pastured/grass-fed, I would. We all make compromises. I have to shop at stores, which has never sat well with me.

Here are two of Dr. Peter Gibson's articles on FODMAPs:

Personal view: food for thought – western lifestyle and susceptibility to Crohn's disease. The FODMAP hypothesis - Gibson - 2005 - Alimentary Pharmacology & Therapeutics - Wiley Online Library

Evidence-based dietary management of functional gastrointestinal symptoms: The FODMAP approach - Gibson - 2009 - Journal of Gastroenterology and Hepatology - Wiley Online Library

I don't follow the Kwasniewski ratios. I tried them and found that I felt unwell and gained weight. I like Dr. Bernstein's constancy of amounts of PRO and CHO from day to day, but find his 30g/CHO/d too high for me. His plan has saved many lives and helped thousands of people.

And very important, IMO, no gurus. When we have read enough to know the science, it is easy to make informed choices. To not do so, is to take the role of a child asking someone else to tell us what to do and take responsibility for us.

I find that eating very simply seems the most honest. Many people use meals and activities related to meals for entertaining themselves and filling up their thoughts/lives spending their time, energy, and money. I am among those who find that a frivolous waste of life force.

I like LCF because there is a kindness and wholesomeness here that, IMO, is not as present on other forums. I keep putting in my bit for some serious thinking, and science-based nutrition, rather than merely vanity and amusement. There is a great deal of inanity and spoon-feeding on LCF, which is extremely tedious, to say the least.

I would like for this thread to be about thinking for oneself, taking responsibility for one's own choices, doing one's own reading, ones' own research.


The only essential foods are animal parts, all of them, and water, and a very few plants for some micronutrients. Those of us with an ancestry in northern climes have this food plan in our family history, albeit ages ago.

This thread is for those who already eat carnivorously. I have posted a great deal of information on LCF and am not interested in posting it all again.

No one on a forum can take responsibility for someone else's choices. That is an impossibility. What anyone chooses to do must be based on informed thought, sound science, and individual health, genetic make-up, budget, preferences, and history.

Again, I would very much like this thread to be composed of those who already eat carnivorously, read well for themselves, and contribute useful, constructive information in a kind way.

Hope that answers enough.

Best wishes to all.
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Old 06-19-2011, 12:51 PM   #5
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I'dike to be part of this thread.

I eat more than 95% from the amimal kingdom. Once or twice a month I'll have some green beans or broccoli with dinner to be sociable. I also saute a few slices of mushooms in butter to be mixed with scrambled egg yolks for breakfast. That's the extent of my plant food.

I guess Jack Daniels is from the plant family, but adds no carbs and not too many calories.

I started this VLC for weight loss, but gained numerous health benefits as well.

I also tried Dr. K's diet, but could not eat all the fat. For the last several months I've been eating 120 grams of fat. 89 grams ave protein. What carbs I get are from eggs and cheese except for the few veg listed above.

So nice of you to start this thread.
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Old 06-19-2011, 02:55 PM   #6
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Ron, how nice of you to post. I was hoping you would post here. I got a chuckle out of the Jack Daniels being from plants, yep, 'tis true. My vice is black tea, and my hwc yoghurt.

My fat intake fluctuates, but I've been trying to keep the PRO grams at 70-ish, rather than lower. So far, it seems to be good. Today was a high fat day, probably 130. Other days, FAT grams are more 90-ish.

I had liver, egg yolks and herbs today, which makes it a higher carb day.

Ron, do you find if you eat fish that you prefer a bit more than if you eat beef? I find I eat an ounce, or even two, more of fish than beef.

Was able to get veal brains again, so am looking forward to brains for breakfast soon.

Hope your week-end is going very nicely.

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Old 06-19-2011, 07:13 PM   #7
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Auntie em,

I don't eat fish, except for the occasional shrimp.

I could eat nothing but beef, pork, chicken but my wife likes a family meal now and then, so I add a veg.

I've conditioned my mind to "carbs are evil". Of course, twenty years ago, I conditioned my mind to "fat is evil" and followed the Pritikin plan to a 60 lb. weight loss.

My weakness is bourbon, but without a weakness, I wouldn't be human.

Have I told you latetly that I love you, Auntie Em? In a purely LCF way.

I've read almost everthing on the zero carb blog (zioh) and have seen a poster with almost your same name. I wonder if that was you.
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Old 06-20-2011, 03:49 AM   #8
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I am definitely not carnivore but love your threads & would like to subscribe to this one. I follow Stephen Guynet's blog & my diet reflects that. I try to help my mother with her health issues. She is a meat lover but also a bread lover. Not easy.

Ok, as a vegetable eater I will not talk much but I am interested in this thread.
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Old 06-20-2011, 08:02 AM   #9
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Ron, thanks very much for your kind post. You brought me a lovely smile. Your good cheer is a blessing.

We all have our weaknesses. It seems alcohol is popular with some of the menfolk. I like it that you just own it, enjoy it, and eat clean. Some try to pretend that a vice is some sort of nutrient. I know my tea drinking is a substitute for some brain nutrients as well a choice of indulgence. (I prefer tea to taking Tyrosine), and the hwc yoghurt is part nutrient, part indulgence, too. I hope the biochemists work out the dopamine pathway connections regarding what is in each food soon. I have read several places that alcohol in the absence of fructose and in the presence of saturated fat is not a problem, at reasonable amounts.

Heidi, thanks for your kind post. Whew, I couldn't imagine you trying to feed your mother the way Ron and I eat. I'll keep posting my menus in the Maintainer thread.

Am hoping a few other carnivores-for-life will post. It seems that those of who have been around several decades and have ended up eating this way, tend to be those who have indeed tried everything.

Ron, I could eat beef, offal, fish, egg yolks, and just the few herbs. I occasionally eat a bit of turnip or celery root these days. The homegrown herbs "sit" better than any plant matter I buy, so I may not buy more plant matter after these roots have been used up. I find the carbs in liver, egg yolks and brains, with the bit of herbs suffices. Regarding fish, I wonder if women need more Omega 3 than men, or if it is simply a matter of brain chemistry and genetic make-up. I take CLO and, currently, krill oil, too.

I take breaks from the tea now and then, but have no plans to stop drinking it. I really like drinking good tea.

Ron, would you consider posting your menus in the Maintainers' Menus thread?

Best wishes to all.

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Old 06-20-2011, 01:01 PM   #10
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I am one of those who originally found low carb for weight loss but realized the health implications early on. Now my diet reflects that evolution. I am very greatful to Kurt Harris and the many other bloggers out there who have helped me with the evolution. LCF was a kind of primer for me. I learned alot here as well as from Dr. Atkins and Dr. Bernstein. There have been some really great and knowledgable members here over the years. Unfortunately, many have moved on. But I still enjoy coming here and can still find useful information sometimes. Thanks for starting this thread. You make it feel peaceful and I appreciate that!
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:10 AM   #11
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Teri, thanks for your kind thoughts. Hope you are doing very well.
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Old 06-23-2011, 07:32 AM   #12
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Paleo Phil has a new post at his blog, an update on what he eats, which might be of interest:

Ancestral Lifestyle: Update on What I'm Eating

I like how he categorizes what he eats into staple foods and secondary foods. Makes the reading easy.

Phil has a link to this interesting abstract at PubMed:

Am J Med. 1988 Apr;84(4):739-49.
Stone agers in the fast lane: chronic degenerative diseases in evolutionary perspective.
Eaton SB, Konner M, Shostak M.
Source
Department of Anthropology, School of Medicine, Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia 30322.

Abstract
From a genetic standpoint, humans living today are Stone Age hunter-gatherers displaced through time to a world that differs from that for which our genetic constitution was selected. Unlike evolutionary maladaptation, our current discordance has little effect on reproductive success; rather it acts as a potent promoter of chronic illnesses: atherosclerosis, essential hypertension, many cancers, diabetes mellitus, and obesity among others. These diseases are the results of interaction between genetically controlled biochemical processes and a myriad of biocultural influences--lifestyle factors--that include nutrition, exercise, and exposure to noxious substances. Although our genes have hardly changed, our culture has been transformed almost beyond recognition during the past 10,000 years, especially since the Industrial Revolution. There is increasing evidence that the resulting mismatch fosters "diseases of civilization" that together cause 75 percent of all deaths in Western nations, but that are rare among persons whose lifeways reflect those of our preagricultural ancestors.


Best wishes to all.

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Old 06-23-2011, 07:52 AM   #13
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In case it is of use to someone, here are my staple foods:

Beef muscle meat (some grass-fed, some commercial, grain-fed), beef fat, beef liver (including calf liver).
Chicken liver.
Egg yolks.
Veal brains.
Canned wild salmon, canned tuna
Herbs and a couple of leaf vegetables which I grow
Lemons, I use the juice (1 or 2 T of juice per day, but not every day)
Butter, some pastured, some not
HWC: mostly as yoghurt and incubated 17 hours to reduce lactose content as much as possible
Gelatin, added to whatever is in the skillet
Purified water and tea

Secondary foods:
Sardines/Mackerel/Herring (only in the secondary category because I don't like them as well as salmon and tuna)
Mild cheeses in small amounts
Cucumbers
Parsnips, celery root and turnips (I cook the parsnips and eat small amounts. Turnip and celery root are eaten raw.)

If any other of the Lifetime Carnivores wish to post what you eat, I'd be interested.


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Old 06-25-2011, 05:18 PM   #14
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I enjoyed reading everyone's menus.

I just found this thread, so interesting. I eat a mostly meat/poultry/fish diet and I was wondering if anyone else has had a problem with bloodshot eyes with so little carbs. I've had a bit of a problem with this. If anyone has some helps or knows the cause. I've heard that lysine was supposed to help and I've had limited success using it. Any help steering me in the right direction to correct this would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 06-25-2011, 05:29 PM   #15
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Hi, Sistertzu. I'm sorry, I don't know an answer to this. Have you checked the Paleo and Carnivore forums? Paleo Phil, Rose, Ambimorph, Satya, and the other regulars at those places might have good ideas.

I hope you are doing very well.
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Old 06-25-2011, 05:36 PM   #16
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Thanks you!

I will check out those places. I'm doing great with 10 to 30 carbs per day but the bloodshot eyes have been a bit of a problem at lower than that.
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Old 06-25-2011, 05:57 PM   #17
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I don't post in the menu threads, because I'm so boring. However, you asked for it.

Br: Always 3 egg yolks(scrambled), 2 slices bacon, 1/4 cup shredded cheese.
Sometimes, 1 Tsp. CO., sometimes not. Same with sauted mushrooms, depending if they have them at the 99 cents store.

Lunch and dinner are interchangable. Either 3-4 oz. braunschweiger with 1oz. of walnuts or one oz. of cheddar cheese or 6-8 oz. 73-27 ground beef w/ tapitio. (hot sauce).

Dinners are mostly beef or pork roasts 6-8 oz. When they are leftovers, they can be my lunch for a few days.

Exceptions are the occasional family meal when I eat a green vegetable and a half of a baked potato. Weekly, we go out for breakfast to Denny's and I have an omelette with ham and cheese and sausage or bacon (or both) on the side.

About 3 days a week, I have two or three ounces of Jack Daniels and one day a week it goes up to 4-8 ounces. The big day is our happy hour night where very occasionally I'll have some carbs. (Fried shrimp or meatballs) but, lately I've just abstained from food. As I've said, I rarely get hungry.
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Old 06-25-2011, 06:09 PM   #18
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Sistertzu, I hope they can help you. I do well at 10 - 20g/CHO/d. I occasionally have 30, and rarely under 10. Under 10 feels quite difficult, as if my body is working way too hard. If I eat 30g, the next day I naturally eat close to 10. I try to keep the carb amounts constant, but there seems to be a natural cycle, similar to what Ron posted.

Ron, thanks very much for posting your menu. Your food plan and experience confirm much of my own. The longer I eat this way the grander it is. Hope your week is going splendidly.
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Old 06-25-2011, 08:40 PM   #19
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Here's my menu for today.

Morning
warm water
2 butter basted eggs with sea salt, cracked black pepper, and teaspoon of bottled hot sauce
decaf with 1/2 cup almond milk

Midday
5 1/2 oz tuna
2 tablespoons homemade mayo
quirt of mustard
cracked black pepper
1 small bell pepper
2 small cabbage leaves
small tomato
tablespoon celery, onion, jalapeno
filtered ice water
1/2 cup coconut milk with 1/2 oz soaked and dehydrated walnuts frozen in ice cream maker

Evening
quarter roasted chicken with butter and sea salt (leg and thigh)
2 tablespoons fresh salsa
filtered ice water
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Old 06-25-2011, 10:22 PM   #20
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Sistertzu,

and Hi all--I was just going to lurk here, since I can't say I'm a carnivore. I always enjoy Auntie EM's posts.

I do have problems with dry eyes on very low carbs. I actually switched contacts due to dry eyes to something more hydrating and was still frustrated and couldn't see.

Jaminet (Perfect Health Diet) blogs about this. I am in the middle of reading the book (I am always reading 10 books at a time and make slow progress there). I am not sure it addresses dry eyes in the book, so I am not recommending the book for looking this up.

Jaminet says the problem is mucus deficiency caused by zero carb dieting.

I came across this in reading a critical post of the Kwasniewski's Optimal Diet (the diet I am on).

Dangers of Zero-Carb Diets, II: Mucus Deficiency and Gastrointestinal Cancers | Perfect Health Diet
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Old 06-26-2011, 06:47 PM   #21
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Thanks for the heads up.

I did have a problem with dry eyes connected to gallstones years back. What I have now is a bit different. As long as I have some plant matter in a day it seems to be at bay. I just want to understand what's going on a bit better.
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Old 06-26-2011, 07:43 PM   #22
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Auntie Em,
I'm a little different from you, in that my diet doesn't seem grander as I go along.

In fact, it's boring to me. What keeps me here is the weight of course, but since I'm diabetic, The fasting numbers in the 80's and even post prandials in the 90's

The best thing about this diet is that food takes a secondary importance in my life.
I can take it or leave it
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Old 06-28-2011, 04:46 AM   #23
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Hi, all.

Ron, your numbers are super. That is most impressive.

I'm sorry the WOE is a bit boring to you.

I really, really enjoy my food plan.
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Old 06-30-2011, 08:07 AM   #24
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Another blog which might be of interest is Crohn's Carnivore, by a young man who was healed by eating ZC.
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Old 06-30-2011, 02:53 PM   #25
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Dr. Art Ayers has an interesting post on food to eat for normalizing gut flora:

Cooling Inflammation: Soluble Fiber: Food for Gut Flora

Well worth reading and implementing, IMO.

There is a post at the blog, Ketotic on gut flora on a ketogenic diet. Lucas' native language is not English, so it takes a bit to read his posts:

http://www.ketotic.org/2011/06/gut-flora.html

I have found that eating homegrown plants and veggies "sits" better than store-bought. It's nice to find out that they are helpful to intestinal flora.

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Old 07-01-2011, 08:22 AM   #26
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Auntie, that ketogenic nutrition is an excellent site and should be recommended reading.
Also good for peop who insist on studies/science. I am not one of those but there seem to be many hanging around.

Interesting that when I was a raw fooder, David Wolf was big on soil organisms. Really makes perfect sense but I think one must be careful to buy organic.
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Old 07-01-2011, 09:45 AM   #27
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Hi, Jem. I agree on the organic. I grow enough of my own plants to not have to buy any herbs/vegs now, which helps tremendously. Hope you are doing well.
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Old 07-06-2011, 10:06 AM   #28
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A couple of interesting posts at Lucas Tafur's blog on myths regarding ketosis:

Ketogenic Nutrition: Ketomyths

Ketogenic Nutrition: Ketomyths II

Slankers, the grass-fed meat company, has an interesting chart showing the Omega 3 and Omega 6 content of common foods. The name of the page is: gi_and_omega_3_nutritional_food_data (Can't post a link, as they

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Old 07-09-2011, 03:25 PM   #29
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Start Date: LC'05,'10Paleo,'13 S.Guyenet+S.Roberts'14C.Kresser
Wow, interesting links Auntie Em...I was going low protein and very high fat when I was on the ultra-low carbs and came up with the dry eye problem. Hmph...maybe I will try again with more protein and see how it goes.
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Old 07-09-2011, 03:34 PM   #30
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