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Old 06-26-2012, 03:56 AM   #241
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total love this plan my calories stay high in fat and low near zero carbs and love how it so works without changing laying down all day being disabled. sleep 100 percent better my racing thoughs have stopped, from bipolar depression. so happy and being slim only need lose 2 pounds that gained getting off low carb in one day so now finally going down again love it. my fave food is meat and dairy and all the fat of butter i can take. eat a conatainer in a day if could lol of whipped pure cream butter yummy unsalted
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:26 AM   #242
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AuntieEm - I have Eat fat and Grow Slim as an e book on my main computer at home. Have read it several times. Amazing how some had figured out the advantages of HF/LC years ago but it never got mainstream acceptance. It certainly works for me and I do see some psychological/mental advantages as well as I seem far less anxious and moody on vlc but maybe that is more a function of age and finally learning to accept those things I can not change.

Natosha - Other nondairy fats that are healthy IMO are lard, tallow, olive oil (for salads - don't cook with it), and coconut oil. Good luck with your diet. I do better monitoring protein levels as well as carbs. Lots of good references posted in this thread. Happy reading.
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Old 06-27-2012, 08:41 AM   #243
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Shunsweets, it is amazing that Dr. Mac's work didn't spread over the whole world, I agree. If you are interested in more of his books, I have bought several through the site, abebooks, and am grateful to have them.

Natosha, I, too, wish you happy reading.

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Old 07-06-2012, 04:16 PM   #244
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Hi Auntie Em,
I've read through this entire thread, and found it fascinating. I'm currently doing vlc (only a little over a week now, although I have tried it before...with the same good feelings) and find it to be the easiest and least troublesome way to eat. For some odd reason, the lower my carbohydrate intake, the better I feel. I seem to feel healthier and healthier. Its strange because I know many say they feel terrible without carbs. Perhaps they don't ever get fully adapted?

Anyway I was wondering if you could repost a link you have *somewhere* in this thread...I can't find it now! It was on keto-adaptation, and how its in three stages. I can't stop thinking about it! Without beer, diet coke, artificial/fake sweets, or wine...I find myself needing a way to get some endorphins, and I'm planning to exercise soon.

Knowing how exercise goes early on based on prior experience (read: severe nausea!) I'm postponing exercise for a while. But I just thought I'd read that article/post again to get more details.

Thanks for this thread.

Last edited by moonmirror; 07-06-2012 at 04:17 PM..
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:48 AM   #245
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Hi, Moonmirror. Thanks for your kind post. I'm glad you have found some things in this thread helpful. I'm sorry, I don't remember a post about three stages of keto-adaptation. Could you try the advance search function to see if it turns up anything useful? I, too, find VLC the happiest of food plans. It'll be two years of VLC for me, at the end of this month. I have read several posts saying that going from LC to VLC is easier for folks who were eating on the lower carb side of LC, with fewer industrial foods, when they made the switch to VLC. I have taken many categories of foodstuffs out of my food plan since going VLC. Eliminating those things made life much nicer. It also seems that how much glycogen one stores, and how quickly that is used up, makes a difference. Also, bone broths, magnesium, perhaps extra salt, or potassium salt, etc. Dr. Michael Eades has some good things on his blog about starting LC, which I find also apply to starting VLC.

This is the only thing I remember, at the moment, which had something about keto-adaptation. Here is the text.

How to Lose Weight
THURSDAY, AUGUST 27, 2009 AT 10:56AM
Let's see if I can write the world's shortest description of everything you can do to lose weight. OK, you'll have to read some of the rest of the site to make sense of it, I suppose. But it will still be pretty short.

PaNu is not a weight loss program. It is a healthy eating regime that also happens to be the most powerful and simplest (not easiest, necessarily) regime that I have encountered to achieve your genetically determined normal lean body weight. Being at a particular weight is simply evidence of a having a healthy metabolism, and should obviously not be a health goal in itself.

If you have trouble losing weight following the first 4 or 5 steps, you may have what I unscientifically call a "broken metabolism".

If you have a broken metabolism, with stubborn residual insulin resistance (liver, not adipocytes), or your leptin receptors are screwed up by WGA from wheat and your satiety switch is broken, or any of a number of theoretical metabolic derangements from years of eating the standard american diet, you may have trouble losing weight without going VLC (say 5-10% carbs) and you might indeed gain weight if you eat excess protein beyond your needs.

The extra insulin response to excess dietary protein may simply drive more fat storage. I would not expect this in most people, but it may happen in some. See this.

What to do?

If you can't lose weight and you need to, you must cut carbs until you have ketones in your urine. Ketones in your blood is ketosis. Ketones in your urine is ketonuria. Ketonuria is proof of ketosis. GNG (gluconeogenesis) and ketosis is the sure way to prove your insulin levels are low as you can get them.

Then, as dietary fat has the least effect on serum insulin, and dietary protein has a small but measurable effect, eat only the minimum necessary protein (.8 -1 g/Kg/d) and the rest as fat.

5% carbs should guarantee GNG and ketonuria. (This will mean almost no vegetables and no sugary salad dressings, etc. Your food must be naked except for healthy fats)

15 -10% protein (drop it as you adapt)

80-85% fat

This, by the way, is ridiculously easy to achieve if you use butter and cream, but a bit impractical otherwise. This is close to Kwasniewski's Optimal Diet. Read the book.

A few more things not mentioned by Kwasniewski but that I think are important:

It is helpful to absolutely eliminate fructose from your diet if you have any issues with weight. The SAD (standard american diet) has absurdly high amounts of fructose that destroy your liver's insulin sensitivity. Fructose may be the single biggest cause of broken metabolism.

The second biggest (or maybe first, who knows?) cause of broken metabolism may be gluten grains. Wheat germ agglutinin (WGA) binds leptin receptors and insulin receptors, in addition to nasty effects on the immune system and gut. So even if you have no immunologic issues like celiac disease, and you don't believe like I do that almost everyone has subclinical damage to the gut from gluten grains, wheat may be making it harder for you to lose weight by affecting your satiety switch and by directly causing fat storage.

Excess Omega 6 linoleic acid ("the third horseman") probably also has an effect on weight loss, as there is evidence that excess n-3 linoleic acid contributes to the inflammation in the liver that is part of metabolic syndrome. Just one more reason to keep industrial vegetable oils limited.

Stick to white rice and potatoes if you absolutely must eat starch. No wheat, barley or rye.

Try eating one big meal a day to satiety, then allow yourself nothing but decaf coffee with whole cream or fast the rest of the time. I eat like this about three days a week. It is really easy once you are keto-adapted*

It is, I believe, easier to go cold turkey from carbohydrates than taper off. Teasing yourself with cereals and bagels is more difficult than simply enduring a few days of nausea or hypoglycemia. Just carry a container of sliced oranges or apples and eat a slice if you are hypogycemic. (Yes, there is a bit of fructose there, you are just eating it while you adapt to ketosis) Totally avoid grains and starches. Use fruit for emergencies. It will pass.



*I define keto-adapted as being conditioned enough to ketosis that you can easily fast without getting light headed or hypoglycemic. I think VLC (50g) or ZC (5-10 g) folks are all ketoadapted. LC (100g/day carbs) not as much. Even if not in ketosis all the time, KA folks can slip in and out of it easily and their metabolism has all the machinery for ketosis and GNG constructed. Caution: metabolic speculation informed by experience.


To me, it makes sense that how well one's body utilizes glucose, at any given time, is crucial to being keto-adapted. I take L-glutamine, Chromium GTF, and Biotin, to help with this.

Endorphins, hmmm. I'll post a few things that help me, in case anything appeals to you. For me, it means eating just enough, not too much and not too little, getting the kind of fats that help all my systems work the best, which means, for me, beef fat and pastured butter, first of all. The allergy-addiction mechanism gets triggered, for me, with cream, even when it's fermented. I eat it, but I must be careful. Yoga, Callanetics, gentle walking and gentle rebounding, pacing myself, etc., are as critical for me as the food plan and supplements. Slow movement that has a calm, pleasing rhythm does wonders. I've heard others say that, too.

And, my mental approach/frame of reference toward any- and everything. Other things: rest, sleep, light, doing things which I find inspiring, nourishing, uplifting, strengthening.... Also, not using electronic or even electric things more than my limits can comfortably handle. I am posting more about the factors not primarily related to being a carnivore in a different thread.

Food things which help with feeling more like smiling and looking forward:

Wild salmon, CLO with D and pastured butter, E (I use Unique E), and EPO, help me feel lighter and cheerier. The combination of CLO/D/pasture butter has been recommended to me by several who eat similarly. I find I feel best when I take them together.

Magnesium, myo-inositol and d-chiro-inositol help me with calm, poise, looking happily forward, etc.

I have to eat liver often, every other day, at least. I eat about two ounces at a time. Both chicken and beef liver help. Brains, too.

I cook bones about every two weeks, either in a crock pot or a pressure cooker, with water and vinegar, to get minerals and bone marrow and marrow fat. This is vital for me.

I, too, find staying non-industrial in the choices of foodstuffs takes gumption and diligence. I am not 100%. But, I pay for those times I use things such as artificial sweeteners, or bologna, for example. I have been using "smashed" pork rinds recently and mixing the pork rind meal with eggs and cream, and fry them in pastured butter, to make a kind of "pan bread" which I find satisfying. I put things on them, such as cottage cheese. It isn't ideal, due to the high Omega 6 in pork, and I don't feel quite right about eating pork anyway, but sometimes the food plan parameters feel too strict for me.

Hope this helps some. I noticed that after being VLC for about 10 1/2 months, that it got much easier and happier. Dr. Wolfgang Lutz wrote in his book, Life Without Bread, that it can takes months or years to be fully adjusted to LC, and that some people never adjust. I felt well at ca. 25-33g/CHO/d for a long while, and have found the last few months that I like being at 18-23. Keeping the protein amounts constant, too, has been of great help.

I wish you happy successes with everything.
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Last edited by Auntie Em; 07-08-2012 at 10:59 AM.. Reason: clarification
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:17 AM   #246
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Hi Aunti EM, I have read your thread from page 1. I have been on the 72 version of Atkins for a year and lost 40 lbs. I am not perfect and the slips I think have stopped me from losing the last 20. I usually can't go more than a week and fall off the wagon. I have a renewed spirit and today is day 9 on plan and the cravings are less and less for carbs. I eat an occasional lettuce only salad and that's it.

My goal is to stay on plan without slips until Aug 20th. That day I have a dr appt. I will weigh and see if I have lost anymore. From then on I will add 5 NC a day.

I have been off my diabetes meds for 6 months now since the weight loss and hope I can go another 3 months doing the same. Unfortunately, I have other health issues that require a cocktail of pills daily. That too may hinder weight loss.

A major difference is that Atkins does not recommend eating liver which I love.

Your plan may be just what I need to shake things up. I hope you will let me join your thread.

Thank you for all the information.

Linda
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Old 07-27-2012, 08:57 AM   #247
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Hi, Linda. I'm glad you've enjoyed the thread. It's nice to know that others find all this information helpful. I will post more science information on eating carnivorously as I find things. My attention is more towards solving the puzzle of allergies these days, so am not currently as active, as previously, about looking for more things for this thread.

You might find more support for weight loss in one of the threads, such as the Meat-and-Egg folks often have. My aim for this thread is related to the science of health for those who have been eating carnivorously for a long while, and who know it is a choice they must continue to make, for the rest of their lives. There are only a few regular posters in this thread, and we are all in maintenance. Occasionally, someone else "pops in" for a visit. As you can see, four posters in the last month, is not the same as the threads aimed at daily support for weight loss. For ongoing, regular support the Meat-and-Eggers thread might be more attractive.

All the best to you!
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:06 PM   #248
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Thank you so much for responding to my post. How wonderful to all be on maintenance. I will definitely keep looking for your excellent and informative information.

I wish you continued success in all endeavors

Linda
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:28 AM   #249
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Linda, thanks for your very kind thoughts. I wish you happy successes, too.

ETA: I've just run across this Challenge, which might be of help:

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/lo...ge-anyone.html

Last edited by Auntie Em; 07-30-2012 at 09:29 AM.. Reason: added link
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:36 PM   #250
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Some time ago I read at Barry Groves' site that 10% of fat could be used for making glucose, from the glycerol. (If I remember correctly, that is in the article by Prof. John Yudkin, on why LC diets must be high fat, not high protein.)

A few months ago, Chris Masterjohn wrote a very interesting post on how this occurs. Here is an article about gluconeogenesis from fatty acids, which is most interesting:

Against the stream: relevance of gluconeogenesis from fatty acids for natives of the arctic regions | Kaleta | International Journal of Circumpolar Health

The full text is free to download, in various forms.




...
Abstract

Background. The question whether even-chain fatty acids can be converted into glucose has a long-standing tradition in biochemistry. Since the glyoxylate shunt is absent from mammals, the question has been considered to be solved. It is of particular relevance for understanding the metabolic state of natives of the arctic regions due to the very high fat content of their traditional diet only containing negligible amounts of carbohydrates.

Methods & Results. Using an in silico approach, we discovered several hitherto unknown routes in human metabolism that allow the conversion of even-chain fatty acids into carbohydrates in humans. These pathways proceed via ketogenesis over the intermediate of acetone and produce the gluconeogenic precursor pyruvate. While these pathways can make a contribution to glucose production during times of limited carbohydrate supply, we found that their capacity might be limited due to a high demand in reducing equivalents in acetone degradation. Considering the traditional diet of natives of the arctic regions, the detected pathways are not only important in order to improve carbohydrate supply, but moreover reduce the amount of protein that needs to be used for gluconeogenesis.

Conclusion. In summary, our study sheds new light on our understanding of the metabolic state of natives from the arctic regions on their traditional diet. Moreover, they provide an avenue for new analyses that can reveal how humans have adapted metabolically to a practically carbohydrate-free diet.

Keywords: carbohydrate-free diet; gluconeogenesis; inuit diet; ketogenesis; even-chain fatty acids

...

While glucose can readily be converted into fatty acids in humans, the question whether the reverse conversion, gluconeogenesis from fatty acids, is also feasible has been a topic of intense debate at the beginning of the 20th century. With the discovery of the glyoxylate shunt, which allows this conversion and is present in plants, fungi, nematodes and some bacteria but not in mammals, the conclusion had been that gluconeogenesis from fatty acids is impossible at a metabolic steady state in humans. This statement can be found in many prominent biochemistry textbooks. However, it is ignored in this reasoning that there might exist other routes than the glyoxylate shunt that could allow this conversion. In a previous study, we set out to investigate whether there exist such alternative routes that would allow to convert fatty acids into carbohydrates in humans using a compendium of all metabolic reactions known to take place in humans, which had become available due to the advent of genome-scale networks (1). The above-mentioned question is of particular relevance for natives of the arctic regions, as their traditional diet contains only negligible amounts of carbohydrates, with 2% of energy coming from carbohydrates, 66% from fat and 32% from proteins (2).

Results and discussion

Our analysis was based on a genome-scale metabolic network, which represents a compendium of all metabolic reactions known to take place in humans and, hence, also provides the basis to identify hitherto unknown routes in metabolism. An in silico search for the possible routes for gluconeogenesis from even-chain fatty acids revealed a large number of possible pathways (1). An important finding is that this pathway list is exhaustive; no other routes are feasible. A common denominator of these routes is that they cross the mitochondrial membrane several times, convert the product of β-oxidation of fatty acids, acetyl-CoA, into acetone (a ketone body) and subsequently degrade acetone to pyruvate (Fig. 1). The formation of acetone as well as its degradation can occur on several routes that differ in their energetic requirements. In particular, reducing equivalents in the form of reduced nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate (NADPH) required for metabolising acetone potentially limit the capacity of gluconeogenesis from fatty acids. As discussed in Ref. (1), several lines of experimental evidence support the utilisation of the detected pathways, in particular during times of ketosis as it occurs during starvation, fasting, in hibernating animals and in humans on a low-carbohydrate and ketogenic diet. In these situations, the detected pathways allow to reduce the degradation of proteins for gluconeogenesis since there is a continued need for glucose by several physiological processes, for example, in the brain, even in situations where carbohydrates are scarce.


...

Here is a link to the chart which shows the glucose coming from pyruvate.

...

Here is the summary:

In summary, our findings show that, in contrast to text-book knowledge, there do exist gluconeogenic routes from fatty acids and that these pathways can be used during times, or at places, of scarcity of carbohydrate sources. These pathways are likely to be of particular relevance for the natives of arctic regions. The conversion of part of the fatty acid components of lipids into glucose allows them to reduce the potentially toxic overstrain of the body's capacity for degradation of proteins for gluconeogenesis and energy production. In particular, the analysis of mutations in the enzymes of these pathways as well as their regulators in genome sequences from people of the arctic regions could underline this relevance.

(I do wish that Dr. Alfred Pennington were still here to comment!)

Last edited by Auntie Em; 08-16-2012 at 01:39 PM..
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:16 AM   #251
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Some interesting excerpts from Lucas Tafur's post on Nutritional Immunity, an Overview.:


Nutrition influences the composition and function of adipose tissue (AT): Energy intake regulates fat mass, affecting the function and differentiation of pre- and mature adipocytes (direct effect). The concentration of specific fatty acids in AT is proportional to their abundance in the diet (indirect effect). The dietary fatty acid profile also affects membrane lipid composition on other cell types, which regulates cell functioning.

Adipose tissue is an immune organ: There are several immune cells present in AT from different body sites, differing each one in the proportion of cell types. Lymph nodes present in AT are sorrounded by perinodal adipocytes, which have a higher proportion of polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) than adipocytes far from the nodes. Lymphoid clusters within AT include milky spots (MS) and fat-associated lymphoid clusters (FALCs), which have an active role determining whole-body immune responses. Adipocytes are also able to secrete adipocytokines (leptin, resistin, adiponectin, etc.) and classical cytokines (IL-6, TNF-a, etc.).

Adipose tissue regulates energy intake: Cytokines secreted by AT regulate appetite and energy balance, acting through neural pathways involved in energy homeostasis.

Nutrition affects the gut flora: Microbial composition of the human gut flora is very responsive to diet. Small changes in either macronutrient distribution or food choices affect differently not only the relative proportion of certain species, but also their metabolism and gene expression patterns.
Gut flora regulates fat mass and metabolism: Digestion of plant cell walls, oligosaccharides and other food components by gut bacteria increases the energy yield of food, contributing to energy intake. Acetate and propionate, produced by the fermentation of soluble fiber, are metabolized (predominantly) in skeletal muscle and the liver, respectively. Gut microbiota also supress FIAF activity and promotes hepatic triglyceride synthesis. Metabolism of drugs and xenobiotics is dependent on the composition of the gut flora.

Gut flora regulates immunity: The presence of specific bacteria shapes the immune system and regulates mucosal and peripheral immune responses. The gut flora also competes with enteropathogens directly and by the action of antimicrobial peptides. Evolutionary co-adaptation has given gut bacteria and other microorganisms essential roles for mammalian health.
Nutrition regulates immunity: Energy availability and macronutrients regulate the function, maturation and differentiation of immune cells.

...

Mode of birth

This important but commonly overlooked factor is determinant for immune development and future health. Vaginal birth is the natural mode of birth because it stimulates not only hormonal responses in the mother and the child, but because it promotes an adequate colonization of the neonate, one that we have been adapted for. At birth, the newborn is sterile*, so it can be colonized virtually by any species. Babies born by cesarean section have an abnormal microbiota, as they harbor bacteria from the hospital's environment, medical practitioners and the mother's skin. Normally, during the passage through the birth canal, the infant is exposed to vaginal and cervical flora. Because of its proximity, newborns are also rapidly colonized by maternal gut microbiota, which seems to be the predominant source of bacteria. Pre-term infants also display a different pattern of microbial colonization.


Hygiene practices during childhood

Gut development is a continuous process that has its last phase during late infancy/early childhood, as the child transitions from breastmilk to complementary foods. Exclusive breastfeeding (and ingestion of colostrum) is very important for preventing inadequate colonization, as it has bacteria, immune and growth factors which promote immune development. Breastmilk also has a perfect nutritional composition, with oligosaccharides (and other components) that promote the growth and establishment of commensal bacteria (predominately Bifidobacteria). Formula-fed infants display an aberrant gut microbiota and normal colonization is severly delayed (if not completely disrupted).

Microbial exposure favors diversification and exposure to pathogens, which is necessary for stimulation of immune memory and tolerance. Contact with animals, eating raw food and playing in the dirt are a necessary part of a healthy lifestyle in infancy. Excessive hygiene and antibiotic use promote dysbiosis.


Family diet, diet history and maternal environment

The diet eaten by your father, mother and grandparents influences the expression of genes involved in energy metabolism. These effects are transmitted intergenerationally and lasting during adulthood. Inadequate dietary patterns followed during childhood and adulthood worsen immune and metabolic function. Additionally, maternal status during pregnancy (stress, nutrition, etc.) has profound effects on many genes.


Medical history

Previous diseases, antibiotic abuse and utilization of other substances can influence both the normal functioning of the immune system as well as metabolism.


Genotype

The presence of certain alleles are important for tolerance of specific food components (ie. lactose) and variability in immune responses (ie. MHC alleles, cytokine gene polymorphism).


Social/lifestyle experiences

Having bad social relationships, lack of optimism, stress and other common lifestyle experiences affect the inflammatory status of the body. For example, losing a game in very competitive persons increases the levels of inflammatory cytokines higher than in non-competitive subjects. Mental stress also seem to affect the composition of the gut microbiota and gut permeability.


Symptoms, self-assessment and bloodwork

Any symptom (either bad or good) is valuable for trying to identify potential problems. Self-assessment, including anthropometric measures, emotional status or the characteristics of feces can also help narrowing the spectrum of possible disorders. Bloodwork and biomarkers are helpful for confirming assumptions and health status.


There are a few other posts of interest at Lucas' blog, as well.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:23 AM   #252
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Also well worth reading:

Amber Wilcox-O'Hearn and her husband, Zooko, are posting about the science of eating a ketogenic diet. They appear to have Lucas Tafur's old site, called Ketotic. (I won't post the link to Ketotic, as there is a link to Zooko's computer company at their site.)

The newest post is:

Ketogenic Diets, Cortisol, and Stress: Part I — Gluconeogenesis

Here is their summary at the end of the article:

Summary:

GNG is stimulated by glucagon, and as long as the GNG response to glucagon is enough to restore blood sugar before it goes down to about 55mg/dL, cortisol will not be called upon to regulate blood sugar.

By the time blood sugar levels have gotten so low that cortisol is deployed to help fix it, hypoglycemic symptoms also appear.

Keto dieters don't appear to experience hypoglycemic symptoms (except in some cases involving inadequate protein or prolonged fasting). In fact keto diets, especially protein-adequate keto diets, have been used to reduce the occurrence of hypoglycemic episodes in susceptible people.

Therefore it is not true that because keto diets use GNG for blood sugar regulation, they cause stress to the body.

Since blood sugar is easily measured, you can indirectly test for whether cortisol is being used to regulate your blood sugar yourself. If you find it to be low, there are other strategies you can try to alleviate it that don't involve giving up your keto diet.


I have read forum posts at Paleo and Carnivore sites, by both Amber and Zooko, and have always found those posts to be well thought out, well researched, and well written.

Best wishes to all.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:57 AM   #253
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Hi Carnivores!

Auntie Em, I've been doing a LOT of reading over the last week or so trying to get my low carb head back on straight LOL! I just wanted to thank you for all the research you find, post, and comment on here at LCF. I'm still somewhat but straighter than a week ago!

DG
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Old 08-20-2012, 08:33 AM   #254
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DG, thank you for your kind post. I always hope that the things I find interesting and useful, will be of help to someone else, too. I wish you happy success!
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Old 08-23-2012, 12:16 PM   #255
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Excellent posts as always AuntieEm.

So I guess it's good that my grandchildren have lots of pets and an overgrown backyard to play in - nice reassurance - they are very healthy if a little mud streaked at times!

I'm also reassured that cortisol is not an immediate concern on a ketogenic diet. I have never see my blood glucose as low as 55 in 3 years of daily monitoring so whatever glcuconeogenesis I may be experiencing (be it from protein or fat!) should be the healthy type that provides my brain and eyes with the glucose they need. I love it when science bears out my own personal experience.
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:33 AM   #256
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Shunsweets, thanks very much for your kind thoughts. Your reporting of your experience on VLC mean a lot to me. Yes, here's to playing in the dirt. Peter Dobromylskyj has posted that he uses dirt from the woods, for the probiotic benefits.

I, too, quite enjoy reading of science bearing out my own experience.

Hope you are doing splendidly.
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Old 08-26-2012, 03:51 PM   #257
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A new and interesting post today at the Ketogenic Diet for Health (Ketotic) blog:

Here is an excerpt:

We were talking about gluconeogenesis, not ketogenesis.
Our last post described the evidence that the rate of gluconeogenesis (GNG) is stable under a variety of metabolic conditions. We also described several experiments in which large amounts of protein were ingested or infused and did not increase the rate. We concluded that eating more protein than your body needs probably doesn't increase GNG.
Many of our readers expressed confusion about the implications of this finding, and our purpose in posting it.

The reason we investigated this was to address the following concern. One of the reasons keto dieters want to minimize the amount of carbohydrate they eat is so that their bodies don't have to deal with excess glucose in the blood. Whenever we ingest carbohydrate, it becomes sugar in the blood ¹. Since blood sugar must be kept within a narrow range for safety ², eating carbs then causes the body to release insulin in order to draw sugar quickly and safely out of the blood and into storage (as fat tissue) ³.

In our opinion, the ideal situation is to introduce no significant amount of sugar into the blood by eating, and instead allow the body to supply the blood with just the amount of glucose it needs by producing it at a slow and steady rate through GNG. This is achieved by keto dieters who carefully count any carbohydrates they eat, with the goal of keeping them below a certain level, for example, 25g per day.

Because some people have said that when you eat protein above basic requirements it turns into sugar, the question some dieters have is whether they need to count excess protein toward their carb counts ⁴. They want to know if eating an extra 30 grams of protein means that they have added some 20 grams of sugar into their bloodstreams that now has to be dealt with just as if they had eaten 20 more grams of carbohydrate. This is the conclusion we were setting out to deny. Protein you eat in excess of your needs does not become extra blood sugar, unless you are severely diabetic.

However, this does not mean that eating too much protein has no adverse effects, or that keto dieters should be unconcerned about excess protein intake! In particular, there is another important reason that keto dieters minimize the carbohydrate they eat — to increase the levels of ketones in the blood. So a second question, and one that we did not address in the last post, is whether excess protein inhibits ketogenesis, the production of ketone bodies. In contrast to the situation with gluconeogenesis, we suspect protein does inhibit ketogenesis. If so, that's a valid reason for not eating more than you need.
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Old 08-31-2012, 10:23 AM   #258
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So much great info on this thread.Now I need to find the time to read it all!
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:13 AM   #259
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Shoo, thanks for your kind thoughts. I hope you are doing really well. It is a lot to read, I agree. If it's of any help to you, my method is to read the conclusions and practical applications, and if I find those useful, I go back and go through the science as best I can.
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Old 09-01-2012, 01:02 PM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auntie Em View Post
Shoo, thanks for your kind thoughts. I hope you are doing really well. It is a lot to read, I agree. If it's of any help to you, my method is to read the conclusions and practical applications, and if I find those useful, I go back and go through the science as best I can.
Thankyou. I will catch up on my reading next week,once things settle down a bit around my house!(Lots of company this weekend)
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Old 09-13-2012, 07:04 AM   #261
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I've read the entire thread,and bookmarked some of the links...fantastic reading,thank you all,for posting!

I was diagnosed with MS in 2001 and have had only 2 relaspes in that time. Once I went lowcarb,I felt better and more in tune with my body. I wish I could be pharmaceutical-free,but I am taking a couple of meds for symptoms and they do help.(I think)

My observations after several years low carb:

I feel good on a low carb plan,meat being most of my calories and several cups of fresh veggies a day.
I continue to enjoy my happy hour most days,homemade sangria and vodka martinis.Happy hour snacks are grass fed cow cheese,olives,grilled peppers,and homemade beef jerky.
I love to cook and have dinner parties often.I enjoy making desserts and serving them,but have lost my taste for them.
I look about 10 years younger than my 54 years,people are shocked when they learn my age.
My skin is smooth,soft and wrinkle free.
My hair is full and thick,little gray.
Even with my MS,I feel positive about my life and control I can exert over it. I love learning about new health developments,science,studies,etc. None of which come from main stream media.

Thanks again everyone,my journey continues and I am so happy to have found this thread.

Last edited by shoo; 09-13-2012 at 07:06 AM..
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:49 AM   #262
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Shoo, congratulations on your successes. I wish you the best of health!
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:06 AM   #263
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Dr. Voetlin's book, The Stone Age Diet, is available to read online. Someone posted it in the comments after Dr. Michael Eades' recent post on books which have been important to him.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:01 AM   #264
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Dr. Weston A. Price's book, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, can be read online, "for free", at the site, journey to forever. It is in the library section.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:14 AM   #265
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Thank you!!! Off to book mark it!
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Old 11-11-2013, 12:58 PM   #266
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Some weeks ago, I switched to using mostly pastured dairy, and have been using potassium salt. Have been eating only greens and herbs which I grow, avoiding store-bought vegs. I feel better, have better digestion, and my body composition seems to be improving.

Have been using Organic Valley pastured hh, and staying away from hwc. It is nice in tea, and makes great yoghurt and custard.

Best wishes to all for ever improving health!
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Old 11-11-2013, 04:01 PM   #267
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Auntie Em, glad to hear you are feeling well! I wonder what hh is?
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Old 11-11-2013, 10:02 PM   #268
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Hi Auntie Em,

It is so good to hear from you and that you are doing so well.

Half/half?

Home-grown veg - herbs - that is really wonderful.
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Old 11-12-2013, 02:56 AM   #269
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Hello ladies! Nice to hear from you all! I am jealous of the home grown veggies and herbs too. Wish I had a garden. I use very few veggies, mostly as garnish, but can't afford the organics and they aren't widely available in the ones I like anyway.

I did switch to organics for my half & half and cheese and sometimes eggs as those are available here.

I continue to follow Bernstein's diet with stable weight, good energy, and emotional peace. Diabetes is still a challenge at times but that is the nature of the beast. I still find I must be vigilant every single day to avoid the junk foods that seem to reach out and try to grab me. I am not one who has lost cravings even after years of careful diet.

Hope all are having a lovely autumn.
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Old 11-14-2013, 10:46 AM   #270
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Hi, Cathy, KT and Shunsweets! How very kind of you to post. I've missed you!

Cathy, thanks for your kind thoughts. I am very well. Yes, "hh" is half-and-half.

KT, thanks for you nice thoughts. Eating my own green and herbs really helps. Container gardening works well in my gardening zone, (7B).

Shunsweets, I'm glad you are doing so well. I, too, use the plants as a touch of variety, and for a few micronutrients. Yes, the vigilance is daily duty in my life, as well. The pastured and organic dairy has proved a good choice for me. I haven't found pastured, organic brie, but the regular brie sits better with me than cheddar or swiss, even with pastured butter on each piece. I don't know if it was the casein, or the aging, or the chemicals in the packages. The plastic around the cheddar and swiss smells of petroleum-derived fragrances and insecticides, as do the containers for the eggs.

Am still looking for a local source for pastured eggs.


I, too, hope you all are having a lovely autumn and enjoying ever-improving health.

Thanks again for posting. You've made my day!
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