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Old 01-18-2012, 10:16 AM   #91
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Jem, thanks for posting. Hope you are doing well.

Dr. Kurt Harris is not convinced either. He states that eating grass-fed ruminant meat and pastured butter should supply the Omega 3 needed at a good ratio to Omega 6, and that it is possible that folks historically ate fish for the iodine and protein.

Here are his comments after that fish post by Dr. Deans:

I for one think if unnatural amounts of n-6 are avoided and all your butter and meat and dairy is from ruminants, that you can have an evolutionarily concordant 6:3 ratio.

Grass fed butter has a nearly 1:1 ratio, for instance.

Hominins have not consistently enough occupied fish containing biomes for fish consumption to be necessary for development or health, IMO.

"On one hand, the human brain fat is literally 30% DHA"

And the fact that this is true even for humans who have never eaten a single morsel of fresh fish during their whole ontogeny tells us quite a lot.

Like John Hawks, I don't buy any of the variants of the aquatic ape or littoral hypothesis, including Cunnane's version. I think they are kind of modern paleo myths, like Dairy causing "mucus" or cancer...

In pre-european north and south america, there was substantial trade in many goods, including dried fish. It's a bit hard to imagine unstable long chain n-3s being well preserved on a months-long trade route in fish without refrigeration, but easy to imagine them as quite valuable sources or protein and iodine.


I find it an interesting discussion.


----

On a different subject:

Here is a page about ruminants from a Canadian site on agriculture in the classroom.

...
What is a Ruminant Animal?

Many different species of ruminant animals are found around the world. Ruminants
include cattle, sheep, goats, buffalo, deer, elk, giraffes and camels. These animals all have
a digestive system that is uniquely different from our own.
Instead of one compartment to the stomach they have four. Of the four compartments
the rumen is the largest section and the main digestive centre. The rumen is filled with
billions of tiny microorganisms that are able to break down grass and other coarse
vegetation that animals with one stomach (including humans, chickens and pigs) cannot
digest.

Ruminant animals do not completely chew the grass or vegetation they eat. The partially
chewed grass goes into the large rumen where it is stored and broken down into balls of
“cud”. When the animal has eaten its fill it will rest and “chew its cud”. The cud is then
swallowed once again where it will pass into the next three compartments—the
reticulum, the omasum and the true stomach, the abomasum.

Dairy calves have a four-part stomach when they are born. However, they function
primarily as a monogastric (simple-stomached) animal during the first part of their lives.
At birth the first three compartments of a calf’s stomach—rumen, reticulum, and
omasum—are inactive and undeveloped. As the calf grows and begins to eat a variety of
feeds, its stomach compartments also begin to grow and change. The abomasum
constitutes nearly 60 percent of the young calf’s stomach, decreasing to about 8
percent in the mature cow. The rumen comprises about 25 percent of the young calf’s
stomach, increasing to 80 percent in the mature cow.

Many of the plants that grow on earth cannot be used directly by humans as food. Over
50 percent of the energy in cereal crops that are grown for food is inedible to humans.
Ruminants have the ability to convert these plants and residues into high quality protein
in the form of meat and milk. In addition they feed on the rejects and cutting from fruit
and vegetable farming and the by-products from food processing plants.
....
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:39 AM   #92
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Nice, Auntie Em. Thanks.
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Old 01-19-2012, 07:07 AM   #93
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Old 01-22-2012, 09:24 AM   #94
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Hello All, this thread is very interesting. #subscribed
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Old 01-22-2012, 09:28 AM   #95
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Old 01-23-2012, 12:44 PM   #96
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Hello.

Jamie Scott has a new post on how Omega 6 makes folks fatter. I thought it worth posting.
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Old 01-26-2012, 06:20 PM   #97
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Auntie Em, do you know of a source that compares omega-6/omega-3 ratios in animal fats?
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Old 01-27-2012, 09:20 AM   #98
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Hi, LCShadows. I've been looking for reliable info on that. Here's what I've found, although I can not verify all of it.

Comparison of fatty acid profiles of grain-fed and grass-fed beef. Not the kind of list I was hoping for, but has some good points.

A comparison chart of amounts, per 100 grams, at a blog.

PDF handout that goes along with the Dr. Lands video. (Links there to the rest.)


Chart of Omega 3 and 6 of some foods.

This is an article to which Fawn posted a link recently, on the metabolism of 3 and 6.

The Mendosa blog has this nice little "cheat sheet":

18:2 n-6 is linoleic acid (the short-chain omega-6)
18:3 n-3 is alpha-linolenic acid (the short-chain omega-3)
20:4 n-6 is arachidonic acid (the long-chain omega-6)
20:5 n-3 is EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid, a long-chain omega-3)
22:5 n-3 (DPA) (docosapentaenoic acid, a long-chain omega-3)
22:6 n-3 is DHA (docosahexaenoic acid,a long-chain omega-3)

(Can't post a link as he has advertisements.)

I thought I had bookmarked another chart, but I don't see it in my files today.

If I find something good, I'll post it. It's high on my list of things I look for.

Last edited by Auntie Em; 01-27-2012 at 09:21 AM.. Reason: corrected spacing
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Old 01-27-2012, 11:05 AM   #99
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Reading~ Thank you Auntie Em.~~~
This is very interesting!! :-)
I am diabetic. I can not eat fruit or starchie veggies.
You very well may be the answer to my prayers!
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Old 01-27-2012, 11:07 AM   #100
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Downloaded the pdf for further examination and reference. Thank you Auntie Em - looks very useful!!
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Old 01-27-2012, 11:12 AM   #101
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MaryLouise, the Dr. Richard Bernstein thread might be of interest to you. His plan is aimed at normalizing blood sugars, mainly for diabetics, at 30 grams of carbs per day, no fruit or starchy foods. Dr. B's book, The Diabetes Solution, gave me the courage to go VLC and stop eating fruit. Am sending you lots of good thoughts.

Cathy, thanks for your kind thoughts. I'd be interested in what you think of those links, when you have a chance to post your thoughts. Are you still experimenting with your food plan? and to you.

Here is the other chart of Omega 3 and 6 in foods, which I couldn't find earlier. I find it the most useful of all the links. However, I do not, as yet, have a way to verify its accuracy.

Here is a chart of oils. Mendosa's "cheat sheet" will come in handy.

Last edited by Auntie Em; 01-27-2012 at 11:31 AM.. Reason: added chart
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Old 01-27-2012, 11:35 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auntie Em View Post
MaryLouise, the Dr. Richard Bernstein thread might be of interest to you. His plan is aimed at normalizing blood sugars, mainly for diabetics, at 30 grams of carbs per day, no fruit or starchy foods. Dr. B's book, The Diabetes Solution, gave me the courage to go VLC and stop eating fruit. Am sending you lots of good thoughts.

Cathy, thanks for your kind thoughts. I'd be interested in what you think of those links, when you have a chance to post your thoughts. Are you still experimenting with your food plan? and to you.

Here is the other chart of Omega 3 and 6 in foods, which I couldn't find earlier. I find it the most useful of all the links. However, I do not, as yet, have a way to verify its accuracy.

Here is a chart of oils. Mendosa's "cheat sheet" will come in handy.
Thanks Auntie Em. I have a ton on my proverbial plate right now with helping my daughter prepare for a 9 month trip to the Congo and a bon voyage gathering for her. In the meantime, I am reducing my fat and intermittent fasting. Next week I will meet with a 'low carb/low fat doctor (clinic) here in my city and see what they have to offer, if anything.....
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Old 01-27-2012, 11:47 AM   #103
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Cathy, I'll keep your daughter in my prayers, that she has a safe and wonderful trip. I wish you much success with the doctor visit. I look forward to your next posts!
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Old 01-27-2012, 02:18 PM   #104
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Cathy, I'll keep your daughter in my prayers, that she has a safe and wonderful trip. I wish you much success with the doctor visit. I look forward to your next posts!
Thank you. Her trip is work (research) but I feel certain it will be an incredible experience for her - just bloody nerve racking for me!!
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Old 01-27-2012, 02:29 PM   #105
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Thanks, Auntie Em. I found an article called "Omega 6 and 3 in nuts, oils, meat and fish. Tools to get it right." over on Paleo nutrition blog (one small ad, so I was afraid to post a link). It seems very understandable. Working through the Bill Landis stuff now.

Geez, these charts sure make mutton seem like a good idea.
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Old 01-28-2012, 01:37 PM   #106
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Hi Auntie Em - I'm was wanting to read up on Omega 3 and 6 information and here I find it. Thank you again for all the interesting posts.

And jem51 - I love the piggy picture you have!! So cute!
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Old 01-29-2012, 05:40 AM   #107
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Cathy, I can well understand the worries. I'll keep her in my prayers. I agree that travel to other countries is of great benefit.

LCShadows, how do you make the mutton palatable? I tried lamb twice and couldn't stand the taste or smell. Oh well. I stick with beef, wild salmon, egg yolks, and occasionally, chicken livers.

SpikersMom, thanks for your kind thoughts.

If anyone finds other useful info on Omega 3 or 6, could you please post it? I'd like to see source references to verify the amounts.

Hope you all are having a very nice Sunday.
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Old 01-29-2012, 07:50 AM   #108
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Auntie Em - I'm with you regarding the lamb. My husband loves it. He has made it many different ways over the years trying to convert me. I can't stand the stuff!!
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Old 01-30-2012, 05:47 AM   #109
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I love lamb but it has to be grass fed. That is why I vastly prefer New Zealand lamb. Local lamb is grain fed.
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Old 01-30-2012, 09:23 AM   #110
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I like lamb too but can only afford it as a treat maybe once a year.
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:55 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shunsweets View Post
I like lamb too but can only afford it as a treat maybe once a year.
I love lamb but I can only afford it when I find it in the bin of meats that are expiring. My shop puts out a slice of lamb leg with the bone (LOVE the marrow!) marked down $3 - $5 off the normal price and I snatch it up whenever I see it.

The bin's been pretty lamb-dry for a while. They put "dog bones" in there, too, and I grab them up and have a marrow feast when I see them.

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Old 01-30-2012, 12:55 PM   #112
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Hi, all.

I don't remember if I've posted Dr. Pennington's diet here. It is almost identical to what Dr. Blake Donaldson recommended for many of his patients. Dr. Donaldson also had many of his patients follow a plan with meat, meat fat, herbs and pepper, coffee, and water, but no vegetables or fruit. It depended on the person's health problem.

Here is the reference paper from which the following is excerpted.

With this diet you follow a definite routine which is as important as the diet itself. Have a regular hour for going to bed. Set your alarm clock for eight hours' sleep, never a minute more than that, and allow time for a thirty-minute walk before breakfast. It is not necessary to walk fast, but it is necessary to walk the full thirty minutes regularly.

Breakfast, lunch, and dinner are all the same type. You eat three big meals a
day and lose seven pounds of excess weight a month.

First course of each meal:

One-half pound [cooked weight] or more of fresh meat with the fat.

This part of the diet is unlimited. You can eat as much as you want. The proper proportion is three parts of lean to one part fat. Most of the meat you buy is not fat enough, so get extra beef kidney fat, slice and fry it to make up the proper proportion.

Good meats are roast beef, steak, roast lamb, lamb chops, stewed beef, fresh pork, and pork chops. Hamburger is all right if you grind it yourself just before it is cooked. Season the meat with black pepper before it is cooked or use paprika, celery seed, lemon, chopped parsley, or celery tops, or use other flavoring which does not contain salt.

Do not use time least particle of salt. Do not use foods which contain salt, such as soup, bacon. smoked ham, canned chicken, or fish containing salt, frankfurters, bologna, canned or spiced meat, or salted butter.

Second course of each meal:

This part of the diet is strictly limited. At each meal you have a choice of an ordinary portion of any one of the following: white potatoes, sweet potatoes, boiled rice, half grapefruit, grapes, slice of melon, a banana, a pear, raspberries or blueberries.

At the end of each meal have a cup of black coffee or tea without sugar. Do not use saccharine. [This was the only AS at that time.]

Be sure to drink six glasses of water every day before five o’clock. Your only
other beverage is half a lemon in a glass of water if you desire it.
This diet contains no bread, flour, salt, sugar, alcohol, or anything else not mentioned.


Dr. Donaldson and Dr. Kwasniewski were key inspiration in my daring to give up many green vegetables. They each have folks on starch and fruit, not green stuff, for carbs. Neither recommends much milk or cream. Dr. Donaldson's book tells of cases he treated: allergies, diabetes, arthritis, obesity.... (If I ever get a copy of Dr. K's, Homo Optimus, I'll compare much!)

Hope you are all having a very lovely day.

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Old 02-02-2012, 06:18 PM   #113
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Auntie Em, when I was a kid I loved mutton stew (made from sheep, not lambs), but I can never find mutton stew meat in the shops any more and no one seems to raise sheep around here. I'm not much on leg of lamb on a regular basis either, but is a nice change now and then. Mutton does have a distinctive odor but also tastes wonderfully rich in a stew.

Do you eat tubers? My doctor wants me to include 8+ oz of these a day while doing heavy resistance training. And why are green vegetables not desirable?
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Old 02-03-2012, 06:15 AM   #114
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Hi, LCShadows. I eat a few parsnips occasionally. They are my favorite root vegetable.

I eat herbs and a few small, leaf vegetables. I don't paint all green vegetables as categorically undesirable. Cooked chives and green onions seem to sit all right, for example, especially the ones I grow. I don't do well eating plants that are store-bought or that someone else has grown. I eat very low fiber, low FODMAP, and avoid goitrogens, and of course, nightshades. That makes the vegetable list small, for me. I also avoid certain alkaloids, such as chocolate. I'm not advocating this as necessarily useful for others; it just turned out to be helpful to me. We are all so different.

Dr. Blake Donaldson took his patients off of green vegetables due to allergies. I haven't read enough of Dr. Jan Kwasniewski's writings to know his reasons for not including green vegetables in his plan, other than indigestible fiber. Someone in the Dr. Kwasnieski Optimal Diet support thread might be able to post about that. I don't have his books, just info from the internet.

All plants have phytotoxins to protect themselves against disease, molds, predators, etc. Folks have differing abilities to handle the chemicals in plants.

Hope that helps a bit.

The "dirty carnivore" folks could tell you more about phytotoxins. I just read and experiment on myself.

All the best to you.

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Old 02-08-2012, 10:05 AM   #115
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Dr. Michael Eades on Ketosis:

Ketosis Cleans Our Cells

In going through and catching up on all the online issues of Science, I finally reached the most current issue, which contains an article of interest. Originally published in 1970 in the journal Nature, this article was featured in the current issue of Sage KE, an anti-aging supplement to Science, as a blast from the past in their Classic Papers section. The paper was the first to show that the accumulation of non-functional, or junk, proteins play a role in the aging process. This article caught my eye because of another I had read recently and had touched upon in a previous post.

Anti-aging scientists are now pretty sure that one of the forces behind the aging and senescence process is the junk protein matter that accumulates in the cells, hampering cellular function. If the junk builds up enough, it basically crowds out the working part of the cell, killing the cell off in the process. As this inexorable process proceeds, more and more cells function less and less well until we, as a being, cease to function. There are other processes driving the aging function besides this accumulation of cellular debris, but if we can make some headway with cleaning out the junk, then we should be able to make the cells, and by extension us, function better for longer.

We have little chemically-operated waste disposal systems in our cells called lysosomes. Cellular debris that gets hauled to the lysosomes and dumped in gets degraded into individual amino acids, which are released into the circulation and used to re-synthesize other, functional, proteins. The process of transporting the junk proteins to the lysosomes is handled by enzymes designed for that purpose found within the cells. As long as the enzymes are working up to snuff, the junk doesn’t accumulate. But as the Nature paper shows, the aging process takes its toll. Random errors in protein synthesis of these enzymes due to the aging process means that some end up being functional while others aren’t. The non-functional enzymes then not only don’t help haul the junk to the lysosomes, they themselves become junk. It’s easy to see what’s going to happen as time marches on.


But how can we slow this process and de-junk our cells?

Stay in ketoses a lot of the time. How do we stay in ketosis? By following a low-carbohydrate diet.

How does ketosis help us de-junk our cells?

A paper was published in the Journal of Biological Chemistry last year that tells the story. Ketones stimulate the process of chaperone-mediated autophagy (CMA). What is CMA? It is

a cellular process that allows cells to remove proteins, organelles, and foreign bodies from the cytosol [the watery interior of the cell] and deliver them to the lysosomes for degradation.

Why would the body be designed for ketones to stimulate CMA? Simple. Ketosis is one of the signs of long term starvation. Ketones are produced throughout the day and are perfectly normal, but sustained ketosis takes place during starvation and sends a message that the body needs to conserve both glucose and protein. The body begins to conserve glucose by signaling to many of the organs and tissues to start using ketones for energy instead of glucose. The body conserves protein by decreasing its use of glucose because in the absence of dietary carbohydrate (as in starvation) the body makes glucose out of protein. Conserving glucose by switching to ketones allows the body can preserve its protein stores. The other thing the body can do is to make sure that the protein it does break down to use for glucose formation comes from non-essential sources. What more non-essential source can we have than useless junk proteins floating around in the cells?

The ketones themselves stimulate the process of CMA to salvage all the junk protein to be used for glucose conversion. Ain’t nature great?

Now, all we have to do to slow the aging process is to stay in some degree of ketosis most of the time and let nature take her course and clean all the junk out of our cellular attics. How do we do that? Easy. Keep our carbohydrate intake at (or preferably below) 100 grams or so per day. Why that particular number? Let’s figure.

It takes about 200 grams of carbohydrate per day to provide glucose for all the structures in the body that require it. After a period of low-carbohydrate intake or starvation that amount required drops to about 130 grams per day because about 70 grams are replaced by ketones. We never really get below that because certain cells can’t convert totally to ketone use and continue to require some glucose. For instance, the red blood cells must use glucose for energy as do some cells in the kidneys and the brain and central nervous system. But not to worry, the liver can easily make 200 plus grams of sugar per day to ensure that these tissues get all they need. But the liver makes most of this glucose via a process called gluconeogenesis (the generation of ‘new’ glucose) out of protein.

So, if we decrease our carbohydrate intake to below, say, 50 grams per day, the amount advised in Protein Power and other enlightened books on carb restriction, we’re in a deficit to the tune of about 150 grams per day. No problema. The liver makes up the deficit out of protein. As we start making ketones to replace the glucose, the deficit drops to about 80 grams per day, which the liver can easily provide. But here is the neat part. Most of the glucose the liver makes won’t really come from protein from our tissues; it will come from the protein we eat. We’re not starving; we’re eating a high-protein diet. So we have plenty of protein to make glucose as we need it without robbing our muscles and other protein tissues that would get pillaged were we really starving.

But, deep in the bowels of our cells this fact is unknown. All the cells know is that ketones are all over the place, which is the signal to start the CMA process to break up junk protein.

We end up losing body fat, which is both burned for energy and converted to ketones to replace glucose, while at the same time we maintain our needed protein structures because we’re eating protein, and we de-gunk our cells. All while eating steak and eggs and lambchops and ham and…

It just one more reason the low-carb diet rules.


I like how much Dr. Eades promotes LC!

I have read 150g in other places where he has written 200. If I find a good source reference, I'll post it. If someone else has one, I'd like to read some good science.
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:40 PM   #116
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and we de-gunk our cells. All while eating steak and eggs and lambchops and ham and…
...and saying "yum yum yum nom nom yum yum!"

I was eating bacon and sunny-side eggs fried in bacon grease as I read that wonderful post. And de-gunking my cells! Gotta love it.

Thanks again for all the great stuff you post here, Auntie Em. I love reading the science that backs up what I'm eating as being really good for me. I already know it's good for me by how I feel and how I perform and what the scale says and what my glucose meter says. But my brain and gut are in cognitive assonance when I read the science you post here. And that rules!

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Old 02-09-2012, 08:24 AM   #117
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Hi, SparrowRose. Thanks for your kind thoughts. Dr. Eades does make a sound case for LCing, doesn't he? All the best to you.
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:32 AM   #118
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Lucas Tafur does a nice job of explaining how physiological IR occurs on a LCHF diet in this post. I really enjoy his blog. As with Peter Dobromylskyj's blog, I read the subject, the conclusion, and then piece my way through the parts I can understand, as best I can. The comments and responses to comments usually answer many of my questions.
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Old 02-10-2012, 12:16 PM   #119
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Enjoyed Lucas's post Auntie Em. As a long term vlc/ketogenic dieter and a diabetic I have often wondered if diet induced muscular IR makes my bgs seem higher than they are due to the physiologal IR. I know Docs who are savvy about ketogenic diets tell patients to "carb up" for a few days prior to a glucose tolerance test or their results will not be accurate due to the ketogenic diet.
All in all a moot point as clearly my body can't handle a normal carb load so I will continue the ketogenic, animal based, HF diet that has been working for me and fight the muscular IR with exercise. I don't see muscular IR as a negative thing for the body in fact I have far greater stamina with my keto adapted muscles.
These subjects are so complex but fascinating. I like to read them to affirm to myself that the path I follow is healthy- which is needed when all the mass media, family, and friends repeatedly worry about my high fat diet! We need a support thread for HF/vlc.
I guess this is it! Thanks again for all the sharing and links and best wishes to you for continued health and happiness.
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Old 02-11-2012, 07:29 AM   #120
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Shunsweets, I, too, have read of folks saying to eat 150g/CHO/d for at least three days before a GTT. I find rebounding a great help with improving mitochondrial function. When I rebound, faithfully, I notice marked improvements in every area. VLC and HF, with constant PRO is my plan, too.

Peter Dobromylskyj was the one who coined the term physiologic IR as opposed to pathologic IR. It is a crucial distinction. IMO, as crucial as the difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis.

I'm glad you are doing so well.
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