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Old 07-09-2011, 04:32 PM   #31
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I am a big fan of yours Auntie Em. Hope I can be an 'audience' at very least.
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Old 07-09-2011, 06:23 PM   #32
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A little off topic, but I have been maintaining in the low 170's and I consider my real weight 170. I always eat right, but often drink too much and gain a few pounds.

Well on June 25 I weighed 174. I decided, after reading a few success stories about egg fasts, that I would try something like that. I remember in my weight loss days, trying the egg (and meat) fast twice for 4 days at a time and losing 5 and 4 pounds, and it held.

So I ate my normal breakfast: 3 egg yolks, 1/4 cup shredded cheese scrambled in two Tsps CO and 2 pieces bacon. 607 calories, 83% fat and 22 grams protein. For lunch the same exact meal. Dinner: my usual 6-7 oz meat, an occasional green veg.

I also curtailed my booze input and had 2 highballs (Jack Daniels and water) about 3-4 times a week. No more happy hour splurges.

The happy result was a loss of 6 pounds in two weeks, much of it water, I'm sure. But, at least two real pounds off.
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Old 07-10-2011, 11:55 AM   #33
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Hi, everyone. It's nice to see the "regulars" here. Thanks for your kind thoughts.

Ron, congratulations on your successes! Have you looked at the Slankers website? There is much nutritional information there, including a bit on alcohol lowering DHA levels, in the article on brain function.

The Slankers site is also full of many reasons to eat only pastured animal foods.

Best wishes to all.
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Old 07-10-2011, 12:03 PM   #34
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Ron, that is really great news!!!
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:28 AM   #35
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Stan Bleszynski has an interesting post up at his blog about animal fats and preventing osteoporosis. His comment after the post states that eating the animal fats is the best thing one can do if one already has osteoporosis:

Heretic: Animal protein and osteoporosis myth

His comments of a few years ago at Hyperlipid about the sensitivity to carbs on the first couple of years on a VLC food plan, and the subsequent adaptations were most encouraging. He and PaleoPhil are two of the bloggers whose comments I find useful at various food/nutrition blogs.

Best wishes to all in healthy carnivory!
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Old 08-18-2011, 11:16 AM   #36
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No interesting blog articles to post.

Will just report that I find I am enjoying eating only those herbs and leaves which I grow, and enjoying not eating plant matter from the stores. Eating basil or mint seems to be a nice way to finish a meal.

This week's food prep:

- skillet full of beef bacon and chicken livers, in green onions and chives
- HWC yoghurt
- HB eggs
- pressure cooker roast from grass-fed beef

Finished off a large pile of burgers this week. Some eaten cold. Some re-heated with herbs and topped with a bit of Swiss cheese.

Enjoyed a few, small steaks this week. The store had budget cut steaks for the same price as ground beef. That wasn't a hard choice to make.

Best wishes to all for happy VVLC living.
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Old 08-22-2011, 08:36 AM   #37
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I've been meaning to post this in this thread. Am not at my own computer, so will add the missing links when I have my own computer again. I typed this up from the book I have. It was Mrs. Stefansson's preface that gave me a lightline with which to embrace the blogs, forums, and modern books on LC and VLC.

It was her preface that gave me the courage to eat a mostly animal food diet, which I had been thinking about for some time. Her husband, the Arctic explorer, is popular among some who only eat fatty meat and water. In his book, Fat of the Land, Mr. Stefansson refers to eating organ meats, bones, as well as milk, cream, butter, etc. on this "diet". In this preface, it is interesting to note that Mr. and Mrs. Stefansson ate grapefruit, cream, eggs, and butter, and drank coffee and wine, as small parts of their mostly meat diet.

The following preface wasn't put online at the above link to Dr. Richard MacKarness', Eat Fat and Grow Slim, as the online edition is from an earlier English edition. The preface is in the 1959, Doubleday and Company, New York edition. I have left the punctuation and use of italics as in the book. I put line spaces between paragraphs, rather than indenting the paragraphs.



"The Preface" to Eat Fat and Grow Slim, written by Evelyn Stefansson, April 22, 1959:

One morning at breakfast, the autumn of 1955, my explorer-anthropologist husband, Vilhjalmur Stefansson, asked me if he might return to the Stone Age Eskimo sort of all-meat diet he had thrived on during the most active part of his arctic work. Two years before, he had suffered a mild cerebral thrombosis, from which he had practically recovered. But he had not yet succeeded in losing the ten pounds of overweight his doctor wanted him to be rid of. By will power and near starvation, he had now and then lost a few of them; but the pounds always came back when his will power broke down. Doubtless partly through these failures, Stef had brown a bit unhappy, at times grouchy.

My first reaction to his Stone Age diet proposal was dismay. I have three jobs. I lecture, in and out of town, and enjoy the innumerable extracurricular activities of our New England college town of Hanover, New Hampshire. Forenoons I write books about the arctic, "for teen-agers and uninformed adults," to be able to afford the luxury of being librarian afternoons of the large polar library my husband and I acquired when we were free-lance writers and government contractors, which library now belongs to Dartmouth College. I take part in a course called the Arctic Seminar, and last winter was director. I sing in madrigal groups and act in experimental theater plays. Only by a miserly budgeting of time do I manage these things. "In addition," I thought to myself, "I am now supposed to prepare two menus!"

But aloud I said: "Of course, dear." And we began to plan.

To my astonished delight, contrary to all my previous thinking, the Stone Age diet not only proved effective in getting rid of Stef's overweight, but was also cheaper, simpler, and easier to prepare than our regular mixed diet had been. Far from requiring more time, it took less. Instead of adding housekeeping burdens, it relieved them. Almost imperceptibly Stef's diet became my diet. Time was saved in not shopping for, not preparing, not cooking, and not washing up after unrequired dishes, among them vegetables, salads, and desserts.

Some of our friends say: "We would go on a meat diet too, but we couldn't possibly afford it." That started me investigating the actual cost of the diet. Unlike salads and desserts, which often do not keep, meat is as good several days later as the day it was cooked. There is no waste. I found our food bills were lower than they had been. But I attribute this to our fondness for mutton. Fortunately for us it is an unfashionable meat, which means it is cheap. We both like it, and thanks to our deep freeze, we buy fat old sheep at anything from twenty-two to thirty-three cents a pound and proceed to live on the fat of the land. We also buy beef, usually beef marrow. European cooks appreciate marrow, but most people in our country have never even tasted it, poor things.

When you eat as a primitive Eskimo does, you live on lean and fat meats. A typical Stefansson dinner is a rare or medium sirloin steak and coffee. The coffee is freshly ground. If there is enough fat on the steak we take our coffee black, otherwise heavy cream is added. Sometimes we have a bottle of wine. We have no bread, no starchy vegetables, no desserts. Rather often we eat half a grapefruit. We eat eggs for breakfast, two for Stef, one for me, with lots of butter.

Startling improvements in health came to Stef after several weeks on the new diet. He began to lose his overweight almost at once, and lost steadily, eating as much as he pleased and feeling satisfied the while. He lost seventeen pounds, then his weight remained stationary, although the amount he ate was the same. From being slightly irritable and depressed, he became once more his old ebullient, optimistic self. By eating mutton he became a lamb.

An unlooked-for and remarkable change was the disappearance of his arthritis, which had troubled him for years and which he thought of as a natural result of aging. One of his knees was so stiff he walked up and down stairs a step at a time, and he always sat on the aisle in a theater so he could extend his stiff leg comfortably.

Several times a night he would be awakened by pain in his hips and shoulder when he lay too long on one side; then he had to turn over and lie on the other side. Without noticing the change at first, Stef was one day startled to find himself walking up and down stairs, using both legs equally. He stopped in the middle of our stairs; then walked down again and up again. He could not remember which knee had been stiff!

Conclusion: The Stone Age all-meat diet is wholesome. It is an eat-all-you-want reducing diet that permits you to forget you are dieting--no hunger pangs remind you. It saves time and money. Best of all, it improves the temperament. It somehow makes one feel optimistic, mildly euphoric.

Epilogue: Stef used to love his role of being a thorn in the flesh of nutritionists. But in 1957 an article appeared in the august journal of the American Medical Association confirming what Stef had known for years from his anthropology and his own experience. The author of this book has also popularized Stef's diet in England, with the blessing of staid British medical folk.

Was it with the faintest trace of disappointment in his voice that Stef turned to me, after a strenuous nutrition discussion, and said: "I have always been right. But now I am becoming orthodox! I shall have to find myself a new heresy."

April 22, 1959. Evelyn Stefansson




Hope this information helps a bit. I find this book most useful, even though some of the scientific theory of biochemistry has since been further researched.

---

ETA: According to this short biography, Mr. and Mrs. Stefansson started this meat diet in 1955. There is no footnote for this information, and thus, I am unable to verify the statement. Mr. Stefansson, (November 3, 1879 – August 26, 1962), seems to have kept the meat diet from 1955 to, at least, 1959, when Mrs. Stefansson wrote the preface.




In 1955 he adopted a "stone-age" diet—high-fat, low-carbohydrate, mostly meat—which he credited with helping him maintain fitness and health.

---

It would be most useful to be able to read reports later than Mrs. Stefansson's of 1959, as to how they fared, on the meat diet, from 1959 to his death in 1962, if they did, in fact, continue it. I have yet to find out if she kept the diet after he died. She died in 2009:

Evelyn Stefansson Nef, author and philanthropist, 1913-2009 | The University of Chicago
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Old 08-23-2011, 03:21 AM   #38
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Thank you, I enjoyed reading that. I have read from several sources that there are many simple traditional diets that maintain health.

My immediate forbears maintained very good health on a varied diet high in dairy & grain, low in meat, dictated probably by what was available, economical & what they produced. Alas, I had to give up the grain but have a strong preference for dairy.
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Old 08-23-2011, 05:50 AM   #39
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I enjoyed the article. Thank you for posting it.
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Old 08-24-2011, 10:02 AM   #40
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Hi Heidi and Cathy. I really enjoyed Mrs. Stefansson's preface and thought someone else might, too. I'm glad you did.

Heidi, I like cheese, cream, and yoghurt, too. I don't miss the grains at all.
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Old 08-27-2011, 01:21 AM   #41
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Thanks for the preface! The improvements to one's health can be serendipitous to say the least! I can't recall the last time I was ill either...LCing Rocks!
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Old 08-27-2011, 03:22 PM   #42
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Chiody, how nice to have you post here. I'm glad you enjoyed Mrs. Stefansson's preface.

How grand that you are doing so very well. Your success is a delightful inspiration.

I agree, LCing is splendid!
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Old 09-19-2011, 12:39 PM   #43
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In case it is of interest, here is the report of Drs. McClellan and Dubois, of the 1930 Bellevue Experiment:


http://www.jbc.org/content/87/3/651.full.pdf

And here is Stefansson's book, The Fat of the Land, online.

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Old 10-12-2011, 10:30 AM   #44
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Here is the page at Dr. Barry Groves' site, Second Opinions, on Dr. Lutz's diet for Multiple Sclerosis, and then Dr. Kwasniewski's. (I can't put in a link, as Dr. Groves has advertisements at his site. His site has a search function. The word "Lutz" will bring up this information.)

Part 3: A Diet for Multiple Sclerosis

The veteran, Austrian low-carbohydrate doctor, Wolfgang Lutz started to work with low-carb in 1957. After seeing the remarkable benefits in other conditions but unable to convince his colleagues of the correctness of his ideas, it seemed to him that the only way he could do so would be to prove its success in a so-far 'incurable' disease. In collaboration with neurologist, Prof. Dr. Kurt Eschel, Lutz conducted a systematic investigation of the effects of carbohydrate restriction on MS.[1]

The two doctors put the group of patients they gathered for the trial straight onto a diet very low in carbohydrates, 20-30g per day at the most. The sort of menu they suggested to these patients was approximately as follows:

For breakfast, 2 eggs with bacon, a cup of cream and a cup of black coffee;
For mid-morning snack, cheese with butter;
For lunch, meat or fish (cooked with butter or lard), vegetables and sometimes, for dessert, a small helping of stewed fruit, low in sugar, or a sweet omelette with a small quantity of jam;
In the evening, cold cuts of meat, cheese, butter, and mayonnaise.
Patients were not allowed to eat bread or anything that contained a cereal flour.
For drinks, patients were permitted water, unsweetened grapefruit and tomato juice, tea and coffee without sugar, soda water and a moderate amount of alcohol.
Dr Lutz told me 'apart from a transient constipation that we put down to the comparative lack of roughage in the new diet, these patients generally managed the actual dietary changeover without great difficulty and soon gained an appetite for more fat. However, response to the diet was not beneficial to all participants in terms of the course of the disease itself, for whilst there were some very encouraging results, sadly the condition of a few of the participants worsened.'

The experience taught Lutz three very important lessons. The first of these was that it could take time for the body to accomplish what is really a major change in fuel supply. When someone switches from a very high to an extremely low carbohydrate diet, this means that the body's metabolism, which has been used to obtaining a great deal of its energy from glucose, now has to get used to burning fat as its main fuel. It seems, said Lutz 'that, even in our innards, habits linger! I think I that, initially, I underestimated the nervous system's need for the carbohydrate to which it was habituated and that I overestimated its ability to switch quickly to the burning of fat.'

The second lesson he learnt was that, because it can take time for the body to switch fuel supplies, it is important not to reduce carbohydrates too fast. Some people manage the transition in a few days, for others it takes several weeks or even several months. In this trial, it was those patients who were the most ill to start with who had most difficulty adapting to the new diet and who were most likely to worsen with the changeover.

The third lesson he learnt was that, for certain people and for certain diseases as well as MS, it is important not to reduce carbohydrates below a specific amount, as this could cause unnecessary complications. In the trial, some patients with MS were fine and thrived on such a low amount of carbohydrate, but it troubled others.

Lutz, therefore, abandoned the radical approach that he had started out with, and adopted a more moderate procedure. From that point on, he says 'I never again saw any increase of spasticity in patients with multiple sclerosis that I put on the diet. Thereafter, results were consistent and, time after time, confirmed the real value of treating multiple sclerosis by carbohydrate restriction'.

In that early trial of thirty-six patients, no success was achieved with patients who'd had multoiple sclerosis longer than five years, or who were already experiencing progressive and continual decline. But the results were very positive with people who had had the disease for a shorter period. Patients who had been diagnosed with MS within the previous six months were consistently helped by the diet, as were those who had had multiple sclerosis for less than five years and whose illness came in stages: these people either gained full or almost full remission or, at the very least, they improved to how they had been before the last step down. So, amongst the thirty-six people on the diet of that time, there were a few 'miracle cures' — patients who 'took up their beds and walked', or at least put their sticks in the corner and walked. Lutz and Eckel knew of several of these patients who had kept to the diet and were still free of relapse, even years later.

Lutz was not an Multiple Sclerosis specialist, so saw only a small number of patients with MS. However, he did have a total of fifty-three patients, all of whom he treated with a low-carb diet. He says:

'The amount of improvement one can hope for does depend on the situation at the beginning of treatment. Obviously, whatever the illness, certain things are no longer changeable. With multiple sclerosis, once the brain and bone marrow are so infiltrated with scary foci that a nerve of any length has no chance of reaching its destination without losing its isolation (and therefore its conductivity), one can only hope for limited improvement. If, before starting the diet, patients can no longer walk, if there is already paralysis of the bladder or bowels, then the hope of a return of lost functions is only slight and often the most one can hope for is to arrest decline.

'But this arrest in further decline, in my experience, one may indeed hope for.' says Lutz. 'In all the time since I adopted a gradual approach to carbohydrate reduction with multiple sclerosis patients, I have not witnessed deterioration in the condition of a single person that kept to the diet, only improvement in so far as this was still possible. How I wish that I could convince neurologists of the value of carbohydrate restriction in the treatment of multiple sclerosis. All too often there is a general defeatism that surrounds this condition, and especially as regards diet, as the following case history illustrates:

'At a clinic in Vienna, a young girl was told that no special diet was necessary. She received all the usual therapeutic measures, but in spite of this, her condition continued to deteriorate. She came to me and I put her on my low carbohydrate diet. Almost immediately she started to show signs of considerable improvement; after six months, the patient was practically free of symptoms and all her paralysis and sensory disturbances had disappeared. Two years later she telephoned me to ask if she could go to Morocco with her boyfriend. A year later still, her mother rang to ask whether I thought pregnancy would be harmful to her daughter. I heard that after three years on the diet she had stayed well and was still doing fine.
'


Dr Lutz's protocol was to reduce the amount of carbohydrate in the patient's diet very gradually from their accustomed amount to a certain level, usually not less than 110g. Then, step by step, each month he would reduce the amount by about 12g, until reaching that level of carbohydrate which was required for long-term daily use: about 70g a day.

Dr Jan Kwasnieski's experiences
Dr Wolfgang Lutz is not alone in pioneering low-carb diets in MS, either in using this method of treatment or in having success with it. In Poland, Dr Jan Kwasnieski has had similar success for the past thirty years with a total of 212 patients: 131 women and 81 men. He says that someone with MS can expect the following benefits:[2]

A full cure from the disease, which often happens provided the disease has not been of long duration. On occasion, a cure has been possible in individuals suffering for as long as 5 years.


A halt in the progression of the disease (always).


An improvement in the physical condition and a reduction of disease symptoms (to a varied extent).


An elimination (practically total) of new attacks of the disease provided the optimal nutrition is continued indefinitely.


Achievement of the highest degree of resistance to all sorts of infection.
For this disease, however, Dr Kwasnieski recommends not just a very low-carb, high-fat diet with proportions similar to those in this article, but also one that includes animal brains. He points out that good results in the USA have been achieved with sausages which incorporated brains. Unfortunately, since the BSE scares of the 1980s, brains are no longer available in Britain. A shame really, not just for the treatment of MS, but because, as a client of mine said after sampling them on holiday in France, 'they're yummy!'

Conclusion
MS is considered by conventional physicians to be incurable. It is currently treated with drugs that are mostly palliative. The evidence from both population studies and from clinical observations strongly suggests that, whatever stage the disease has reached, it can be halted with diet alone. The evidence also strongly suggests that, if it is less than five years from first diagnosis, there is a good possibility that the condition can be reversed and you can lead a normal, symptom-free life.

The treatment is the diet recommended in this article as far as proportions of carbohydrates to protein to fat are concerned, together with the removal of all products made with cereals (wheat, oats, rye, barley, rice) and liquid milk.

References
[1]. Eckel K, Lutz W. Über die Behandlung der Multiple Sklerose mittels Kohlenhydratentzuges. Wien Klin Wschr 1961; 493-5.

[2]. Kwasnieski J, Chylinski M. Homo Optimus. Wydawnictwo WGP, Warsaw, 2000, 144-8. And personal interview, September 2006


I realized, in looking at this information again, that Dr. Lutz's early diet recommendations, are quite similar to what my food plan ended up being, sans fruits and their juices, and jam. I drink tea rather than coffee. I started at circa 30-35g/CHO/d and experimented occasionally with fewer. I found that at approximately 10 1/2 months that eating fewer than 20g/CHO/d was easy, comfortable and a stable level of carbs for me. I needed the 10 1/2 months to adjust. I still find that 10-20g/CHO/d is the nicest. I occasionally eat fewer, but it stresses me. On rare days, the g/d are 20-30. The fluctuations seem to be natural.

There are some interesting threads at the Paleo and Carnivore forums these days on ketogenic diets. Am hoping that more ketogenic blogs will appear.

Best wishes to all.

Last edited by Auntie Em; 10-12-2011 at 10:31 AM.. Reason: added some information
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Old 10-12-2011, 02:09 PM   #45
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Thank you Auntie Em, I have copied and pasted this info to my sister (who has one near and dear with M.S.).
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Old 10-13-2011, 03:57 AM   #46
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Thanks, Auntie Em, interesting read.
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Old 10-13-2011, 01:39 PM   #47
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Hi, Cathy. I hope the Lutz diet helps. From what I've read, staying off wheat seems to be criticial for MS. I finally got a copy of Dr. Lutz's book, Life Without Bread, which is very interesting, if inelegantly translated, and way too short. It would be great to have reports on how Dr. Lutz handled individual cases, as Dr. Blake Donaldson wrote in his book, Strong Medicine.

Hi, Heidi. Thanks for your kind post.

I hope you both are doing splendidly.

ETA: I started a blog a while back at wordpress on wholesome nourishment, ancestral food, etc. It's called silvertimeoflife, in case you'd like to read some things I couldn't figure out how to post here at LCF. Hope I've done all the set-up properly so that you can read it.

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Old 10-21-2011, 11:30 AM   #48
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Here is the link to the blog:

Auntie Em's blog on Wholesome Nourishment: Ancestral &, for me, Ketogenic | Eating and living regeneratively….

The links to Dr. Benjamin Sandler's writings are particular interesting.

Best wishes to all for a healthy, happy week-end.
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Old 10-21-2011, 11:44 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auntie Em View Post
Here is the link to the blog:

Auntie Em's blog on Wholesome Nourishment: Ancestral &, for me, Ketogenic | Eating and living regeneratively….

The links to Dr. Benjamin Sandler's writings are particular interesting.

Best wishes to all for a healthy, happy week-end.
Wow you have been very busy!!! Thanks for all the invaluable info!!!
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Old 10-21-2011, 11:46 AM   #50
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Hi, Sistertzu. Thanks for your kind thoughts. Hope you are doing very well.

There are some pdf files at the blog, of books, which I couldn't figure out how to post here at LCF. Hence, the wordpress blog.
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Old 10-21-2011, 12:49 PM   #51
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I'm well as I hope you are!

I so appreciate your vast knowledge and help. I still have a bit of trouble with my eyes getting red I guess from the absence of carbs. When that happens I know it's time to up my carbs a bit and take a bit of lysine. Still haven't found anything else to help with that.
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Old 10-26-2011, 08:34 AM   #52
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Sistertzu, thanks for your kind post. I, too, am one of those who must eat a few carbs. If you don't mind a question, what do you notice the lysine helps with? I take lysine to avoid canker sores. Staying off nightshades, chocolate, coffee, and citrus took care of most of the trouble, but too much tea or too much stress can trigger them. I find lysine helps a great deal.
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Old 10-26-2011, 12:26 PM   #53
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Sistertzu, thanks for your kind post. I, too, am one of those who must eat a few carbs. If you don't mind a question, what do you notice the lysine helps with? I take lysine to avoid canker sores. Staying off nightshades, chocolate, coffee, and citrus took care of most of the trouble, but too much tea or too much stress can trigger them. I find lysine helps a great deal.
Oh yes lysine has been a godsend for hubby, myself and several friends that I have shared that knowledge with about cold sores.

Lysine helps somewhat with the eye redness, it hasn't been a total cure. I try to have some kind of vegetable a least once a day that seems to keep the redness diminished along with eye drops. I try not to use eye drops to much because I understand you can get addicted. Yeah stress triggers a lot! It's just so weird that if I eat more total carbs the eye redness disappears. I haven't been able to correlate it with anything else.
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Old 10-27-2011, 05:18 AM   #54
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Sistertzu, do you happen to know how the lysine helps with the eye redness? The folks at the dirty carnivore forum might have some good ideas about eye redness, if you're interested in posting there.

I haven't had redness, but have noticed that if I don't eat enough carbs that my eyes feel constricted inside. It's not easy to describe. If I go too low on carbs, it really feels that my body is working way, way too hard. Dr. Blake Donaldson mentioned in his book, Strong Medicine, that some people need plant carbs at each meal, that not everyone does well without them.

I, too, find that eating some kind of vegetable each day helps. I can go a day here and there without plants, but I feel better when I eat a bit of plant matter.

Hope you find the ideal amounts and solve the eye redness. It took me a very long time, about 10 1/2 months, to adapt to eating VLC. It was a great change from eating LC.

Last edited by Auntie Em; 10-27-2011 at 05:20 AM..
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Old 10-27-2011, 08:47 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auntie Em View Post
Sistertzu, do you happen to know how the lysine helps with the eye redness? The folks at the dirty carnivore forum might have some good ideas about eye redness, if you're interested in posting there.

I haven't had redness, but have noticed that if I don't eat enough carbs that my eyes feel constricted inside. It's not easy to describe. If I go too low on carbs, it really feels that my body is working way, way too hard. Dr. Blake Donaldson mentioned in his book, Strong Medicine, that some people need plant carbs at each meal, that not everyone does well without them.

I, too, find that eating some kind of vegetable each day helps. I can go a day here and there without plants, but I feel better when I eat a bit of plant matter.

Hope you find the ideal amounts and solve the eye redness. It took me a very long time, about 10 1/2 months, to adapt to eating VLC. It was a great change from eating LC.
That's a good question, I don't know. I have read that one cause of red eyes is being lysine deficient. A couple people have mentioned that to me so I tried it and it did seem to help with the redness. I totally understand about my eyes feeling constricted that's exactly it, although I have redness too, that's a better way of describing it. I will look up dirty carnivore. Thanks for all your help.
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Old 10-27-2011, 09:22 AM   #56
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Sistertzu, the folks at Dirty Carnivores seem to me to be the best informed of the ketogenic diet forums I have found. They have keen interest in health, good science, and most have been ketogenic for years.

I use bee pollen for a pinch of carbs when the symptoms of too few carbs start. I was using lemon juice, but bee pollen is easier, and it is locally collected, which is more in keeping with my parameters of eating locally grown/raised foods. I find I feel stronger, have more poise and endurance in eating foods in season, and from the area I live in, within the parameter of eating foods which are as similar as I can find to those of my ancestors.

Hope you can solve the eye redness dilemma soon.
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:10 PM   #57
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I can get bee pollen from the farmers market. I'm going to research bee pollen, thanks.
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Old 10-27-2011, 05:47 PM   #58
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Stay alert when shopping for bee pollen in the markets....much of it comes from China.
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:16 PM   #59
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Thanks for the tip. I do get mine at the farmers market from a local source.
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Old 10-30-2011, 01:01 PM   #60
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I use locally gathered bee pollen to try to help with allergies. I like using it for my bit of carbs sometimes, as it is a tad bitter, and doesn't trigger carb cravings for me.
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