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Old 03-19-2011, 07:53 PM   #1
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Kwasniewski's Optimal Diet

I'm starting this diet today. I ordered the books from Poland in February, and they finally arrived! Fascinating.

1) Eat primarily eggs, because they are the best source of protein and an entire chicken is formed from the yolk (meaning, there is nutrition for all parts of the body)

2) The next best source of food is high-fat dairy - butter, cream, cheese

3) Meat is considered a "third place" food; muscle meats are too lean and "one-sided" as they must be supplemented by fat. Organ meats are more valuable (but recognize these are not widely-available in the US) because your body must rebuild organ cells much more quickly than your muscle cells. Pork is considered the best source of protein because it is most similar to the human body (for all you bacon lovers out there, score for you). Cartiledge, connective tissue, bone marrow, pork rind are important to prevent osteoporosis and protect your spine and joints.

Animal fats must be the main source of energy; egg yolks contain the best biological fat value. Bone marrow is also very good, dairy fat is considered very valuable. Unsaturated fat is non-essential and should be limited to 1-2% of fat intake.

50 grams of carbohydrates should be eaten to avoid forcing the body to make glucose; a maximum of 100 grams of carbs are allowed. 150 grams is considered a danger zone. He recommends that they be eaten in the form of potatoes as fiber is not required by the body and sugars should be avoided. Fruits and vegetables contain fiber (considered non-essential because they cannot be digested) and sugar (considered harmful) and to obtain vitamin/mineral benefit such vast quantities would be required that he believes these are too expensive for the benefit and too voluminous for the digestive tract and best treated as "condiments" for flavoring food. I can't believe bread/flour is allowed, but they are but only in minimal quantities and not in the form purchased from the store--these must be made according to receipes.

I am still reading; I will post more as l learn more.
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Old 03-19-2011, 11:42 PM   #2
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You could have a great breakfast. Hash browns, bacon and eggs fried in butter. Sounds good.
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Old 03-19-2011, 11:53 PM   #3
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Oh my gosh, my husband leapt to that conclusion very quickly, you should have seen his face!!!! He has not quite made it to "low carb" yet, just reduced carbs (but he is losing weight just fine as is).

I actually ate a small serving of potatoes au gratin style tonight I made myself with butter and melted gouda. It was so nice for a change! I had no other vegetables today.

I usually only have potatoes on a holiday. Wow, I like this.
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Old 03-20-2011, 12:04 AM   #4
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What I wouldn't do for a potato pancake.......
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Old 03-20-2011, 12:21 AM   #5
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I hope it works. I am willing to give up all the salad, spinach, blueberries, and cauliflower in the world forever if this works.
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Old 03-20-2011, 06:06 AM   #6
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I loved it until I got to the 50g of carbs per day so they body doesn't have to make glucose. Does the author back this claim up with any science? Does he talk about what this does to insulin levels? Sorry if I am coming across less than supportive but I would love to understand the thinking.
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Old 03-20-2011, 07:13 AM   #7
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I want to subscribe to this thread.

I do know that PaNu and Hyperlipid blogs think very highly of this man.

Thanks for getting this started.
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Old 03-20-2011, 12:40 PM   #8
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Clackley,

Unfortunately, Kwasniewski is on his own. He has been criticized in his country for his ideas which goes against conventional wisdom. I hate to say it, but he conducted his own studies. I understand from what I have read about him ouside the book (so far) that he has fed various farm animals and rats various diet and conducted experiments and autopsies to come up with his diet. Of course, he also has his clinical experience in treating patients.

I understand he presents his diet as a healing diet, which does address obesity if obese, and causes weight gain if ill and underweight as well. On the back cover of one of the books, illnesses addressed: sclerosis, Buerger's disease, rheumatic illness, digestive tract ailments, high blood pressure, and diabetes. I understand patients come to him from all over the country and fly in from outside the country for treatment with his diet.

Since he sees ill patients, some extremely ill, I can understand his principal of taking stress off the body by not forcing it to make glucose. My husband has heart failure (from heart valve problems - he is not critical, he is OK and working but tired and on a lot of meds), so I am interested in this aspect. I am encouraged because Kwasniewski has mentioned symptoms of heart failure responding to the diet in his book.

CalRon and Clackley - yes, I bought the books based on reading PaNu and Peter at Hyperlipid. It was Clackley and Auntie Em that turned me on to these blogs.

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Old 03-20-2011, 01:11 PM   #9
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I've heard of him and did try his plan once a long time ago. It seemed like there was
alot of fat in it and there was some sort of ratio of fat to protein..Is that right?
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Old 03-20-2011, 01:39 PM   #10
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I am very interested in this diet. I can't wait to see what you think.
Please keep us posted on it!
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Old 03-20-2011, 01:58 PM   #11
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Not to intervene..But this was on The Optimal Diet site..

The principles of the Optimal Diet
The main principle of this dietary model is a marked increase in the consumption of fat, and the reduction in the consumption carbohydrate, as the energy source for the body. There are, however, strict rules on the proportion between the three main food components, protein, fat and carbohydrates, which need to be followed (with few exceptions) in order to achieve claimed benefits of the Optimal Diet.
The ideal proportion between the main food components of protein, fat and carbohydrates should be in the range of:
m m 1 : 2.5 - 3.5 : 0.5
In order to work out the correct daily food intake using this proportion, one has to know how many grams of protein needs to be ingested in a day to satisfy body's requirements. This amount varies from person to person and depends on a "due body weight". Due body weight, in kilograms, is equal to person's height in centimetres less 100 (± 10%). Thus, for a person 160 cm tall, a due body weight is 60 kg ± 6 kg.
A correct amount of protein to be consumed in a day is approx. 1 g per 1 kilogram of a due body weight. Thus, a 60 kg person needs to consume 60 ± 6 g of protein to satisfy body's daily needs. Any excess of protein, above the daily requirement, is converted by the body to fat, provided energy requirements are met by other components.
Having worked out the amount of protein, one can then calculate the amount of other components in a daily menu. Thus, for our typical 60 kg person, the consumption of 60 g of protein has to be accompanied by between 150 to 210 g of fat, and 30 to 50 g of carbohydrate in order to follow the principles of the Optimal Diet.
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Old 03-20-2011, 02:26 PM   #12
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RE: ratios - yes, I am trying to sort this out. The ratios depend upon the quality of the protein eaten. If eating eggs, the highest quality protein, then less is needed. His diet book says:

1 protein to 2.5 to 3.5 fat to 1/2 carb.

I found this a little confusing and unclear.

To further explain, he says if eating a food that has fewer than 2.5 grams of fat to 1 gram of protein, additional fat needs to be added. An egg yolk is great; however, a whole egg is a bit high in protein so cooking in butter resolves this.

His belief is that protein should be kept on the low end, around 50 grams for an average healthy person (ugh, he does not state male or female). He says too much protein is hard on the body, at 120 to 150 grams, the body has to work to convert it in order to expel the nitrogen, which by necessity takes a lot of hydrogen to do so (one atom of nitrogen takes three atoms of hydrogen), which gives the kidneys too much work to do.

It is easy to remember - 50-ish grams of protein (I think this is sound for me), 50-ish grams of carbs, don't eat lean protein (or at least add fat butter/cream).

There are recipes but you need a gram scale to follow them. I don't know that I'll bother with this; I understand what he means with his formulas now.

He does say that eventually, people following his diet naturally adjust to eating small quantities of food only two to three times per day. This takes time for the digestive tract that has been stretched out with high volumes of food as most people have been pushing their digestive systems to this high level of stress, but it does contract, it does happen in time.

CarolynF - Hmm, the website doesn't seem to match the book as far as the protein requirement. I am only on page 41 right now of Optimal Nutrition though. I did read two websites before I bought the books; I just need a lot of "reasons" to really buy into something. I like to understand the rationiale.

For anyone considering the books, I would just get Optimal Nutrition. His other book, Homo Optimus, is bizzare because it is full of his religious views.

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Old 03-20-2011, 04:37 PM   #13
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I have observed many try this plan but have not ever seen anyone (at least women) succeed.

Two of the high ranking OD reps have died from stomach ca so I might be a little careful when it comes to processed meats. Petro from hyperlipid had some discussion about it.
You can certainly just go by ratios instead of exactly the same products.

There is an American site which is quite different and makes it sound just straight up lc.
Another lc site has some followers and many ex followes. I'm sure you can find it by googling.
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Old 03-20-2011, 04:38 PM   #14
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Interesting.

For me a high fat, low protein, low carb diet works best at stabilising my blood sugar (I have diabetes) and maintaining my weight where I like it.

Thanks for sharing this Keytones. I'll be following along to read your findings and checking out the optimal site.
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Old 03-20-2011, 05:32 PM   #15
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I weigh roughly 80 kilos so this means
80 grams protein: I'm presently trying to stay between 70-90 after usually consuming 130 +

Fat would come it at 200 grams using the low end multiplier (2.5)
I don't believe I could eat this much fat. 150 grams is a high day for me.

Carbs calls for 40 and I am also diabetic, without meds and I doubt I could keep my numbers where I want if I go up to 40.

It also totals 2440 calories which is 500 more than I eat now.

It looks like an 80% fat diet with carbs and protein making up the rest.
I will shoot for 80% fat, but not in those quantities.

I'm sure there will be more as you read further. Anxiously awaiting.
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Old 03-20-2011, 07:01 PM   #16
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I have observed many try this plan but have not ever seen anyone (at least women) succeed.

Two of the high ranking OD reps have died from stomach ca so I might be a little careful when it comes to processed meats. Petro from hyperlipid had some discussion about it.
You can certainly just go by ratios instead of exactly the same products.

There is an American site which is quite different and makes it sound just straight up lc.
Another lc site has some followers and many ex followes. I'm sure you can find it by googling.
I really don't know exactly what he means by processed meat since the introduction to the book says some of the foods he refers to are not widely available in the US. He does say to avoid nitrates and pesticides and sugar, so I wonder what this cancer is about? I wonder if he changed his recommendations over time? The books I have are from 1999/2000.

I assumed that he meant to eat meats that have organs and connective tissue and such blended in. I'm not foolish enough to try to live on hot dogs or pepperoni or whatever, but yeah, I can see that people might think that!

I can't purchase a lot of high sodium items due to my husband's heart condition, so this is going to be an egg-focused diet for us.

I am still going to make my chicken stews (but see that I will need to cream them based on his recommendations) and I bought some wild king salmon today. He doesn't recommend eating fish, but wild-caught salmon is some of the few omega-3 foods we have left. I have been making grass-fed meatloaf and will also continue to do this occasionally. I do have some sausages, but I buy Applegate (I think Fawn/Misty mentioned this--uncured, no nitrites) and blend 2 links into 12 egg casseroles for flavor and to keep the sodium down.

The cover of the book has a picture of what looks like prime rib. I don't think he means not to eat muscle meat at all, it is just in "third place" as a choice of food to eat, with eggs first and high-fat dairy second.

I wonder why the low success rate? 50 carbs is not so different than other plans. The potato recommendation is somewhat of a relief for me; I have a lot of food sensitives and problems with hives. So many fruit and vegetables cause me digestive upsets and rashes. I was hoping I could be like an Inuit and live VLC but the fatigue was really getting to me when I tried it. Potatoes don't bother me. I didn't have hives last night! That was a nice relief, but I will only know in time if this sticks.

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Old 03-20-2011, 07:23 PM   #17
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I weigh roughly 80 kilos so this means
80 grams protein: I'm presently trying to stay between 70-90 after usually consuming 130 +

Fat would come it at 200 grams using the low end multiplier (2.5)
I don't believe I could eat this much fat. 150 grams is a high day for me.

Carbs calls for 40 and I am also diabetic, without meds and I doubt I could keep my numbers where I want if I go up to 40.

It also totals 2440 calories which is 500 more than I eat now.

It looks like an 80% fat diet with carbs and protein making up the rest.
I will shoot for 80% fat, but not in those quantities.

I'm sure there will be more as you read further. Anxiously awaiting.
I don't see the formula in the book you are referring to as to protein but will keep an eye out. His book Homus Optimus says it is 70% fat, 20% protein, 10% carbs diet. I am only a few chapters into that book as well.

I am not familiar with the Optimal Diet as to how it works with diabetes. My A1c is 5.6 now with no meds so I am comfortable with 50 carbs for me at this point but will definitely continue to go to my doctor for monitoring.
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Old 03-20-2011, 09:06 PM   #18
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Ha! I found a food list, p. 57.

These are in decending order of the position they should take in the diet. Processed meat is #9 and fish, which he thinks is a poor choise, is #11, so obviously processed meat should not be emphasized. I'm leaving off most of the descriptions, I think it is obvious what he means.

Read high fat so I don't have to keep typing it (like high-fat cheese - he does not mean low fat, lean, or fat-free anything here)

On protein, he says it again (on p. 59) 50 grams without stating male/female, there is no formula for weight of the person, and fat should be 150-200 grams (or 5-7 ounces). Again, he is not talking about weight loss here. Perhaps he gets into it later.


1) animal fats

2) chicken eggs

3) cheese

4) cream

5) all meats, preferably pork

6) giblets

7) giblet and meat gelatins

8) stocks and broth containing fat (NOTE: he says elsewhere to make with small amounts of vegetables - like onion, garlic, spices, 2 tablespoons of tomato paste, and limit to a small bowl)

9) cold cuts, sausages, and processed meats (NOTE I do not recommend)

10) poultry

11) fish

Acceptable: plant fats (but he said limit to 1-2% of fat earlier), milk (but mix with 30% cream), low-carb as possible cooked vegetables, potato (limit to one medium per day), berries, nuts/seeds/coconut flakes (plant fats, limit), mayo (plant fat, limit), condiments (watch for sugar)

Avoid: The avoid list is long, I'm not up for typing it all because it is so repetitive - basically, don't eat sugar, rice/grains/pasta/flours, starches, high-carb vegetables and fruits, peas/beans, skim milk, and to hold back on salt. He is against artificial sweeteners, esp. aspratame and saccharine.
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Old 03-20-2011, 09:47 PM   #19
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Finally, p. 70, he talks about the diet and obesity. OH, so interesting! If obese, the formula changes because of burning off internal fat stores. OK, new formula:

1.5 to 2 grams of fat per gram of protein

...and on carbs:

There are some instances of the obese, while attaining health effects of the diet, do not lose weight because their bodies do not produce an enzyme: lipoprotein lipase.

Obese people have a very low level of this enzyme. Once on the optimal diet, in 90% of people, this enzyme rapidly rises. However, this enzyme does not increase in a slight percentage of the very obese. These people cannot release fat into the bloodstream.

When weight loss is going slowly, one thing to try is to avoid eating carbohydrates at breakfast and lunch.

Hmm, I'm trying to figure out what he means here---I think he means to push the carbs to dinner, and make that the only thing you eat at dinner (or before bed), then says if you do this and wake up not hungry, it is proof that it worked. I don't understand. OK, I'm going to stop paraphrasing now:

"A body must invest a lot of energy to burn off carbohydrates in the evening. Since no fat was consumed with the meal, that energy must come from its own fat supply. This leads to the burning off of the body's own fat and consequently weight loss."

Uh-oh, OK, I'm going to stop quoting because I think it might upset people. He thinks it is a mistake to eat little or no carbs and does not believe that this causes faster weight loss. I don't see a rationale other than going back to explain that the tissues require glucose and they must be supplied or the body will convert protein.

Hmm, OK, he says that this diet will not necessarily help someone that is more than double their genetically predisposed weight slim down to a normal weight but could help them lose 10 to 15%. Well, I will give him points for not claiming this diet is a miracle cure for everything/everyone.

= = = =

I am really confused now because this is not what I recall reading on the PaNu blog about this diet--I thought if one could not lose weight the recommendation was to go to 85% fat. Perhaps there is more somewhere else in the book, or the other book. Stay tuned.

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Old 03-20-2011, 10:25 PM   #20
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Yes, I think something is lost in the translation.
There is an Australian group....don't know if they are still active but the website still exists.
If you google, you'll find the official American site which may or may not clear up some confusion.
One thing I was always confused about is the idea of not mixing 'fuels'...carbs and fat.
The recipes don't indicate that at all, unless I missed something.

I did see something about a follower who eats small amts low glycemic fruit instead of starch and only fermented cream.
But if you have no sensitivities, go by the book! Why complicate things.

BUT, one thing I'm pretty sure of; Oopsies fit pretty well into this plan.
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Old 03-20-2011, 10:34 PM   #21
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Yes, I think something is lost in the translation.
There is an Australian group....don't know if they are still active but the website still exists.
If you google, you'll find the official American site which may or may not clear up some confusion.
One thing I was always confused about is the idea of not mixing 'fuels'...carbs and fat.
The recipes don't indicate that at all, unless I missed something.

I did see something about a follower who eats small amts low glycemic fruit instead of starch and only fermented cream.
But if you have no sensitivities, go by the book! Why complicate things.

BUT, one thing I'm pretty sure of; Oopsies fit pretty well into this plan.
Thanks, I will check these out.

I love learning about nutrition; I can never point to just one book that seems to contain all the pieces. I love learning about the rationale behind eating eggs.

The other take away I have here to try is to avoid fiber to see if I can get my digestive tract to contract further (shrink down) and bring my appetite down, cause me to eat less. That would be great.

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Old 03-21-2011, 04:28 PM   #22
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Even his carb allowance is still in the lc category. Anyway take a look at some of the plans peop follow that are not; Dr OZ, vegan, rice diet. It really appears that you can follow any plan on this board even though it states lc support.

Other boards are not so relaxed.

I read on one of the OD sites that the guy does not use starch but fills his carb allowance w low glycemic fruit (berries, grapefruit, orange).

Although, Dr K claims to control diabetes, I don't know how to ignore my higher BG readings brought on by a small amt potatoes. Maybe it settles after a bit.

There was a recent study that compared a paleo plan w meditteranian or something. The paleo plan included no more than 2 med potatoes and no limits on fruit. The end result was that the paleo had better glucose control.

So I just wonder....Haven't seen that question addressed anywhere. If you come accross it, let me know.
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Old 03-21-2011, 06:34 PM   #23
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I used to eat 2 eggs scrambled in CO and 1 to 1.5 oz bacon for breakfast every day. Then simply meat for lunch and dinner. Less than 2000 calories, but very high in protein.

Then I started intermittant fasting since I was never hungry. I dropped the breakfast and just ate meat for the 2 meals. Roast beef, pork or most often 70-30 ground beef.

What I'm going to take from his diet is the importance of eggs and butter.

Today My first of 2 meals was 2 eggs and 2 egg yolks scrambled in 1 oz butter plus 1.65 oz bacon. Put another ounce of butter on the eggs.
This was 900+ calories with 82% fat, 17% protein and 1 % carbs.

My second meal was 9.8 oz 70-30 ground beef. 82% fat, 18% protein.
I was well satisfied and came in with 82-17-1 macro ratio. 1834 calories for the day.
I'll stick with this for a while and keep following the thread to learn more.

I do have a question on CO since I haven't seen it mentioned. I have a large stock of it and prefer using it to butter for cooking. Any opinions

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Old 03-21-2011, 08:49 PM   #24
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Subscribing to this thread. very interesting might have to give it a try.
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Old 03-21-2011, 09:49 PM   #25
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I used to eat 2 eggs scrambled in CO and 1 to 1.5 oz bacon for breakfast every day. Then simply meat for lunch and dinner. Less than 2000 calories, but very high in protein.

Then I started intermittant fasting since I was never hungry. I dropped the breakfast and just ate meat for the 2 meals. Roast beef, pork or most often 70-30 ground beef.

What I'm going to take from his diet is the importance of eggs and butter.

Today My first of 2 meals was 2 eggs and 2 egg yolks scrambled in 1 oz butter plus 1.65 oz bacon. Put another ounce of butter on the eggs.
This was 900+ calories with 82% fat, 17% protein and 1 % carbs.

My second meal was 9.8 oz 70-30 ground beef. 82% fat, 18% protein.
I was well satisfied and came in with 82-17-1 macro ratio. 1834 calories for the day.
I'll stick with this for a while and keep following the thread to learn more.

I do have a question on CO since I haven't seen it mentioned. I have a large stock of it and prefer using it to butter for cooking. Any opinions
CalRon,

Yes! This is just what Kwasniewski means to happen. The protein in eggs is so high quality and is just what the body needs so it is not necessary to eat as much protein.

I am very optimistic about the diet; I have more energy from the carbs. I am very cautious not to eat too much. I ate a tablespoon of shredded potato with lunch (egg casserole) and tonight a palm-sized portion sliced thin and baked with butter with more egg casserole. I had a lot of pep in my step today climbing a steep hill!

My understanding is Kwasnewiski is not strict concerning foods not on the recommended list if used as condiments. Also, his book does mention coconut flakes. I don't see a reason not to cook with it if you like it.

I'm glad you're enjoying the thread!
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Old 03-21-2011, 10:09 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by jem51 View Post
Even his carb allowance is still in the lc category. Anyway take a look at some of the plans peop follow that are not; Dr OZ, vegan, rice diet. It really appears that you can follow any plan on this board even though it states lc support.

Other boards are not so relaxed.

I read on one of the OD sites that the guy does not use starch but fills his carb allowance w low glycemic fruit (berries, grapefruit, orange).

Although, Dr K claims to control diabetes, I don't know how to ignore my higher BG readings brought on by a small amt potatoes. Maybe it settles after a bit.

There was a recent study that compared a paleo plan w meditteranian or something. The paleo plan included no more than 2 med potatoes and no limits on fruit. The end result was that the paleo had better glucose control.

So I just wonder....Haven't seen that question addressed anywhere. If you come accross it, let me know.
I read that he does not maintain any websites about the diet. Much of what is out there on the internet apparently are interpretations what he has written in his books and papers. I just don't see much in the way of "rules" in the book.

I know Kwasnewiski believes in his diet for diabetes; I am not comfortable with the idea that there is enough information in the Kwasniewski book for this purpose - it is nothing like the instructions provided by Dr. Bernstein.

I really like this board. I know what you mean about other boards. There is no way I would touch the thread about the Optimal Diet I have read elsewhere - I am really not interested in arguing about my interpretation of his diet.

Last edited by Key Tones; 03-21-2011 at 10:11 PM..
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Old 03-21-2011, 11:34 PM   #27
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Kwasniewski's Soups

Kwasniewski strongly believes in eating soup stocks and these make significant portion of optimal nutrition, as they provide high-value fat.

He said something earlier in the book about bone as well- if there were enough nutrients in the diet from bone (as well as other "parts" left on the butcher's floor--tissue, membrane, sinews, and connective tissue), there would be no osteoporosis or diseases attacking people's joints and spines.

Of great importance is to make the soup stock from meat bone due to the high nutritive value of bone marrow, which ranks right behind the fat found in egg yolks. Fortunately, these can be made so inexpensively. He warns that these soups do not keep long and suggests packing them in sterilized jars or freezing when making in quantities.

Cream of Tomato Soup:

2 tablespoons of tomato paste
2 pints of stock broth
3 tablespoons of butter
15 ounces of cream
spices (bay leaf, garlic, onion, salt pepper)

Cream of Celery Soup

100 grams of onion
50 grams of celery
2 pints of stock broth
8 egg yolks stirred in

Stock broth:

6 1/2 pounds of thick chopped pork and beef bones, chopped into small pieces
cover with 1/2 inch water
add 9 ounces beef tallow to give broth flavor
simmer 3 hours
strain the stock
press tallow and marrow through a sieve, add to broth
chop the bits of meat into small pieces, add to broth
bring to boil again
pour into steam-sterilized jars, seal with alcohol sterilized lids
let cool, then refrigerate

(note: I've tried beef marrow broth, not a fan, I'm using chicken bones simmered with a little apple cider vinegar per Fawn's instructions to draw out the calcium, and freeze-I have no clue about jars. I don't know what beef tallow is, just typing up instructions)

Last edited by Key Tones; 03-21-2011 at 11:35 PM..
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Old 03-22-2011, 01:11 AM   #28
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This is interesting info that you are relaying from his book. Thanks!

I wish you lots of success! Keep us posted!
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Old 03-22-2011, 05:28 AM   #29
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Key Tones, fabulous thread!! I am really anxious to see how you and hubby do with this diet. Thank you so much for sharing!!!
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:59 AM   #30
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CalRon, I think Dr K means to avoid ketosis, so adding the recommended carbs is not optional in his plan.
Keytones please correct me if I'm wrong....there is much I don't remember.

The American site does seem to be connected w Dr K and he answers some questions. I was wrong in my first post when I said that it seemed like the changes made it straight up lc.....I cannot remember where that was but remember that it was another country.

About curing/controlling diabetes; I completely agree that this lc plan can achieve that but what if you are pre diabetic/insulin resistant and already lc? Do you see any mention of it.
I don't know if BG will settle gradually and the fluctuations can just be ignored (scary) until then.
I'm not talking wild fluctuations but still....

Here's an example; I ate a cheese pancake (1 t coconut flour) w/o notable increase.
For lunch a potatoe salad made w 3 oz, and egg, a little chopped celery and onion, mayo and sour cream. I have to say that I enjoyed it and there was 0 intestinal distress.
My 1 hr pp was 128, 2 hr was 132. I was not happy w the second reading.

I can eat a sm serving of legumes w/o signif. rise so it is not all starch but potato? I wonder.

Maybe I can ask on one of the forums if they are active. That may be the reason for the guy using low GL fruits for his carbs.

I have made beef stock but tallow gives me birps that gross me out. In my carnivore attempts I made jerky and pemmican. The latter became dog food due to the repeating of the tallow. I make chicken stock same as you.
I do use Great Lakes kosher gelatin just about any place I can.

About the starch; If you can't tolerate wheat, Bobs Redmill (?) makes potato flour made from dehydrated ground up potato, also potato starch. There's also tapioca flour.
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