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Old 04-12-2011, 08:04 PM   #181
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I just finished reading the Kwasniewski thread on another forum. It was over 2 years old ant 125 pages. Most people it seems don't stick with this plan, at least not the way it is written in the book. Most of the people have a hard time sticking to such a low protein amount. I know I've been having a tough time with that. I've been trying to do it for the last week and end up eating around 70-80g.

I'll have to re-read my Barry Groves book, I think he allows more protein, other than that I think the 2 plans pretty similar.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:48 PM   #182
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Yes. This thread and you guys are great!

Bejewelme- Congrats on the arm surgery. No more batwings! Yeah! I hope to have some plastic surgeries, but i don't know...I doubt my insurance will pay for it, and i know i won't be able to pay for it unless a financial miracle takes place...Right now i am just plodding along pushing the weights through the water and waiting to see how i look a hundred pounds from now...
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Old 04-12-2011, 10:32 PM   #183
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Jem51 - cool that on the Whole 30 challenge!!! I would love to hear how you feel after the 30 days.

I'm a big baby about giving up some things, I wish I could be that cool!

Juliemb414 and Goose1 - I am obviously not exactly following the plan, yet I am taken in by his recommendations and rationale to eat less muscle meat and more of the "other parts" and to eat more fat and less protein.

Perhaps in time I will lower my protein further. Kwasniewski did say it takes time to adjust to the diet and in time, people do eat less.

I really think I am getting so much more calcium with these daily bone broths; that can only be a good thing!

I ate more fat today (plain avocado for breakfast and lunch) and had the gelatin and potato first tonight before the soup and pork rinds. Wow, it was more filling today than ever!

You might notice I've pushed my protein and carbs to the evening. This is to keep my insulin releases in response to food as infrequent as possible - I think it is difficult to lose weight releasing insulin all day long. I'm eating fat for breakfast and lunch, you see. Tomorrow I'm going to have just coffee with cream for breakfast, then avocado for lunch.

I used to keep whey powder in my desk for an emergency boost. Now, I am keeping....gelatin! I can get a pretty quick gelatin snack going in a tall 2-cup mug at work. I just put about 1/2 cup, maybe 2/3 cup of water in the bottom, microwave to boiling, add 1 tablespoon of gelatin, stir well. Add flavoring (I use 2 packets of propel zero powder from Target), then ice to the top, stir. It gels up much more quickly this way.

OK, I have been clear of hives for several days. I added cream back to my diet yesterday and today. So far, so good.

After looking at the cheese I haven't been eating, two of which have molded over (although months from expiration), I think perhaps Atkins was right about the mold in the cheese (he says mozzarella is OK) and nuts being culprits. Here's hoping for no reactions to the cream! I really want to take advantage of the dairy fat, it is so high in vitamins, and I can only eat so much butter.

Clackley and Amber/Bejewelme - wow, this is good information to know about the silicone healing sheets! I will keep them in mind.

Amber - oh, good idea on the towels! I could make a bed "spa" for my husband with super warm epsom salt towels.
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Old 04-12-2011, 11:13 PM   #184
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French Paradox...NOT

Brilliant. There is no French paradox. The headers in bold are actually links if you go to Peter's site.

Peter at Hyperlypid:

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.c...paradoxes.html

Paradoxes

Most of us have heard about the French Paradox, which basically says that the French eat masses of saturated fat and have a particularly low rate of heart disease. The usual explanation is that they are protected by all that red wine or their relaxed lifestyle or.... Unfortunately these do not protect the pasta based cuisine consumers of Italy. Quote "in contrast to the French Paradox, which examined how the indulgent French diet could produce favorable health outcomes, the studies of the Mediterranean diet has had the reverse effect in Italy". So do we now have a paradox within a paradox?

But then what about the

Spanish paradox Those naughty Spaniards are eating more fat and less carbs and getting LESS heart disease, now there's a suprise. Good job their medical system is so marvelous.

Sri Lanka paradox In Srilanka they eat <25% calories from fat and still get lots of heart disease. Tut tut.

Israeli paradox The Israelis eat buckets of polyunsaturated fat yet have a much higher heart attack rate than Europe.

Japanese paradox Not only are the naughty Japanese eating more fat, but it is RAISING THEIR SERUM CHOLESTEROL. GASP. So why is their heart attack rate dropping? Easy.

There is even an American paradox!

Particularly note the phrase in that last abstract

"a greater saturated fat intake is associated with less progression of coronary atherosclerosis, whereas carbohydrate intake is associated with a greater progression"

The basic puzzlement in all of these is that the more fat, particularly saturated fat, a nation consumes the LOWER its incidence of heart disease. Low fat consumption, or increased polyunsaturate consumption, INCREASES heart disease.

Of course all paradoxes resolve when you realise saturated fat is not the cause of heart disease....

Peter

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Old 04-13-2011, 03:46 AM   #185
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Julie- I didn't have the $ either but apparently the credit union does for a low %, LOL I said I earned this and did it, I felt guilty spending the $ when we are getting married buying a new house, etc, but I thought you know, I hate my arms, and I worked too hard to just hate the body I am getting. Has not been easy but not too bad either! Waiting until after 40 to lose 100 pounds unfortunately left a lot of skin and being a tanner and a smoker didnt help, some people lose 100 pounds and look great, you are wise just keep losing and deal with it when the time comes, I am still about 30-40 pounds from goal but was close enough for the arms to have it done to allow healing before the wedding! I am glad I did it.

I removed the scar sheet after wearing it all day it says to wash it and the incision and reapply, I thought maybe I will remove them at night, Holy Crap, in one day I am seriously amazed!!!!! Some of the puffy areas that stuck out so far are actually now flush with my arm!!!!! I am wearing these things all day every day! It says it will even help scars that are up to 10 years old, so I would have to give them a glowing recommendation!

KT- have a good day!!!!!
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Old 04-13-2011, 04:53 AM   #186
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Hi all,
Still here following this thread. Having a hard time keeping protein down to 70 grams a day. I know I have gone a little over that on some days, but still a lot less than before. Having EVCO and cream in my coffee to increase my fat. Still eating 4 eggs a day. Getting tired of liver sausage
I have re-discovered how much I love avocados!

KT-I eat fat only for breakfast already. Thinking about doing it for lunch also. Guacamole and pork rinds sounds good!

Gonna roast some bones and make some broth this weekend. I like to drink hot broth when I am hungry, but don't want to eat any more food.

Amber, I will be in the same boat as you with the bat wings. I already have them and have a LONG way to go still. Congrats on your surgery!

Have a great day everybody!
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Old 04-13-2011, 06:24 AM   #187
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Love Peter's blog and his sense of humour! I haven't read that one - great that he is so prolific!
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Old 04-14-2011, 09:03 AM   #188
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I want to share my successes this past week. I have incorporated info from this woe into what I was doing (atkins) by way of eating more eggs, more liver and more dairy. I also began supplements of magnesium, calcium and B vitamins. I also have refined my I.F. by narrowing the eating window to 4 - 8.

I have been stalled and slowly gaining weight over the past 6.5 months despite my efforts. I made it all the way back to 180 (last week). This morning I am at 177.5. That is 2.5 lbs. in one week! Simply amazing for me. I am not confident that my stall has broken - I need to get below my 172.5 before I will! But I am feeling hopeful and btw, very good!
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Old 04-14-2011, 09:18 AM   #189
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Good for you Cathy! I hope you continue having success with this woe.
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Old 04-14-2011, 09:21 AM   #190
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Clackey yeah for you!!!!! Stalls are so very frustrating you must be thrilled, wonderful how a few little tweaks makes all the difference!!!!!I am sure you will keep losing if you stick to these changes!! I am a big believer in supplements!
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Old 04-14-2011, 09:36 AM   #191
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Thank you!!! I was never a believer in supplements but to be honest, had never investigated it much. I also was 'burned' by the old vit C fiasco of years ago. But what KT and others have posted and my own reading have 'brought me around'. I am very excited about it all!

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Old 04-14-2011, 09:59 AM   #192
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Wow, Clackley!!! This is very good news, very encouraging! Excellent work!!!

I will post more later, busy day at work

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Old 04-14-2011, 10:31 AM   #193
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Clackley, I'm grateful for your story about your 6.5 month stall.
I've been low-carbing since September, and trying the Optimal Diet for almost a month, and have been seeing NO weight loss. That is, I lost about 8lbs during the first 3 months when I had a very active job, and have regained about 12lbs since getting laid off the first week of January.

I'm not looking for advice, here...there are plenty of other threads about eliminating soy, gluten, nuts, artificial sweeteners, etc. It will take time for me to figure out if something specific is stalling me...I'm also going to see my psychiatrist on May 10th, and talk about a medication change. I'm on bupropion (Welbutrin) and he has repeatedly told me that it "shouldn't" cause weight gain, but I have gained 100lbs in the last 4 years that I've been on it!

I have bipolar disorder, and for a good 20 years before I started medication, I was usually severely depressed & often suicidal, having manic episodes every 2 weeks, making abrupt and self-destructive decisions...If I have to choose between being overweight but emotionally functional, and possibly losing weight on a new or no medication, but being a wreck again and wanting to hurt myself almost all the time...well, fat & (mostly) happy it is!

The thing is, I like this WOE! I am less hungry, in a better mood, sleeping better, have no edema (my hands and feet used to swell terribly every night, and my weight fluctuations were much more drastic); shopping has been cheaper & cooking/cleaning up have been easier since I've mostly been eating eggs for the last 2 weeks!

I hope y'all don't mind that I'm posting all this here instead of some other, perhaps more appropriate thread, but I've gotten rather attached to the people on this one!
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Old 04-14-2011, 11:11 AM   #194
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I know you will find the answer for you. It is a struggle but as you say, this woe is so good in so many ways! Please continue to post here cause I like the folks here too and have learned so much even when I thought I knew pretty much all I needed to! Ha, not even close!!!
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Old 04-14-2011, 11:38 AM   #195
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This is awesome news Clackey!

May I ask the brand and how many of the supps you're taking?
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Old 04-14-2011, 11:40 AM   #196
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Pirate Jenny,

I'm glad to see you post! I don't post very often, but I do read this thread.

The people on here are very nice!
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Old 04-14-2011, 11:57 AM   #197
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Jenny- Being happy with the WOE is a good thing, and you being balanced is a better thing. Not having the edema and other benefits shows that the diet probably agrees with you. This is probably obvious but do you keep a food journal? Maybe there is one item affecting you? Maybe post here if you are comfortable what you eating and maybe the girls can ID something? Speak with your doctor but I would leery of changing a script that is causing you good results otherwise! You will do it hun, you will find that one thing that is messing you up, just as Clackley is now moving, the diet can be funny at times, all of a sudden you may experience a large loss and things will move! It will happen!
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Old 04-14-2011, 12:07 PM   #198
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This is awesome news Clackey!

May I ask the brand and how many of the supps you're taking?
Gladly! This came from the information given here! First is zinc which I am getting by diet (oysters!). Magnesium citrate (Natural Calm), Health Balance B50 complex 50mg and Kirkland calcium 350mg.

I am investigating others as well and likely will add to this list.
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Old 04-14-2011, 07:46 PM   #199
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Thanks Clackey!

I have gotten so many great ideas from this thread. I made the avocado soup..it was great.

I also bought some of the pork rinds that bejewelme/Amber suggested. I like them way better then other brands that I've had, and now have ordered some other flavors like Key Tones did.

I also made the drink Key Tones makes with the propel, and gelatine.

Thank-you all to all the great suggestions.
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Old 04-14-2011, 11:20 PM   #200
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Kimmarie - if you try the fat-based breakfast and lunch, let me know what you think! I'm glad you're following the thread! I'm making soup this weekend, too, of course. I hope the butcher has chicken backs this week.

Clackley - RE: supplements - I understand what you mean. I am looking to limit to a few targeted supplements.

Low stomach acid has really peaked my interest. What is the point in buying 60 supplements when perhaps the issue is low stomach acid, something that occurs as we get older? I'll try to find the Danny Roddy post about this - that's where I pulled the number 60 from. It is my hope that the zinc really does the trick here.

Oysters! Clackley, excellent, natural sources are best, thank you!

PirateJenny - it is good news that you are doing well on the diet. This is very important. I hope your doc is able to help you figure out more solutions. I am sorry to hear you've gone through so much; I know that makes it so much harder.

Joannamaria - I really think the gelatin is so filling and a great option! I didn't realize over-eating protein, specifically muscle meats, was problematic until I looked into this diet.

OK, I a bit more work to do before bed! Quarter-end work is piling up on me, so if you hear less from me for the next two weeks, do not be concerned.
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Old 04-15-2011, 03:58 AM   #201
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Cathy, congrats on your loss! I take the same supplements and feel great.

KT, Haven't done the fat for lunch yet, my work schedule has been crazy and I haven't planned well enough (to make smashed avocado to take in the car). Will try this weekend, along with the broth.

PirateJenny, glad you are feeling better! I have felt so much better on LC, that I don't have to take wellbutrin anymore. I gained weight on it too.

The talk about pork rinds reminds me I have some spicy microwave pork rinds that would taste good with avocado. That would qualify as a fat-based meal, right?

Ate too much protein yesterday, feeling a little puffy and BS is up a little this morning. Learning experience!

Have a great day everyone.
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Old 04-15-2011, 11:07 AM   #202
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All - I've decided to look into some of Dr. Ray Peat's recommendations on thyroid. I am not following Peat's diet (high carb), but I am curious about his recommendations. He personally has a thyroid issue. One of the things that attracted me is his recommendation to eat gelatin.

The reason I am reading Peat, and one of the reasons I looked into Kwasniewski, is that I have read more than once that the high protein ketogenic type diet can cause a thyroid issue. (I believe the vegetarian/vegan diet is MUCH worse for thyroid, no doubt). I have wondered if this has something to do with long-term stalls (or even people that say they start to gain after so many years - have you seen poor Jimmy Moore's posts? He is the guy that broadcasts the Living Low Carb radio shows. He says after years on low carb with no change to his diet he has gained 50 pounds and can't figure out what is wrong. He is on a five day fast right now, posting youtube videos on FB).

So, I will post what I learn, if I think it might have merit, and to see what you think.

Here is one. Cruciferous vegetables, can be problematic. He says avoid in some places in the book, and in other places, he says if eaten, they should be cooked throughly.

Wow, cauliflower is in a lot of LC recipes, fortunately, usually cooked. Who doesn't love brocolli? I think people usually eat this lightly cooked/steamed. FYI.

OK, so I looked this up. Soybeans (I knew this) and cruciferous vegetables (how did I miss this) contain goitrogens. Hmph. Yet, if I cook the cauliflower throughly, it breaks the cellulose membranes and becomes more of a simple sugar food (per Dr. Bernstein). Sigh.

Kwasniewski believes in using vegetables as condiments anyway. I have to avoid most of them for the digestive issues.

What do you think? Did you already know this about?

Do not be concerned; I am not looking to take everyone on a wild goose chase on the diet. Some of Peat's thinking seems consistent with Kwasniewski. I'll look for rationale on the gelatin and post it as well.

Kimmarie -pork rinds are a mix of protein (collagen type) and fat. With the avocado dip, it would be mostly fat.

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Old 04-15-2011, 11:19 AM   #203
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KT
Thanks for this info. I knew some of it, but not all of it.

I know who Jimmy Moore is but I didn't know he was having problems. I can so relate to him. I haven't gained 50 pounds but have gained some so I understand his frustration.

I wonder why he's gaining?

Wouldn't it be nice to have an appt with some of these experts like Dr. Harris or Gary Taubes?
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Old 04-15-2011, 11:28 AM   #204
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KT
Thanks for this info. I knew some of it, but not all of it.

I know who Jimmy Moore is but I didn't know he was having problems. I can so relate to him. I haven't gained 50 pounds but have gained some so I understand his frustration.

I wonder why he's gaining?

Wouldn't it be nice to have an appt with some of these experts like Dr. Harris or Gary Taubes?
I don't know why he's gaining. I just discovered him recently. I found a few posts online from last year that he suspects thyroid but his doc says his thyroid is normal (how many times have we read this on the board). His morning temperature was only 96.5, however. That is low and suspect. That was last year. I'm just on my lunch break so I can't keep searching.

The other thing to keep in mind here is that I have not read anything conclusive that points to low carb as the problem. Any long term diet can slow the metabolism. I suspect (and I am no expert) that the low carb diet knocks out one's hunger and allows a person to cut calories long term. I think this could be one component of a complex issue.

I have been on my low carb diet for over five years, so I am concerned. I want to be sure I am not screwing myself in some way with my food choices.

OK, I have to get back to work.
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Old 04-15-2011, 11:30 AM   #205
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Wowsa - I did not know this!! I had to look up goitroten - my 'something new' for the day!! Very interesting. Wikipedi's explaination....

Goitrogen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It seems plausible and actually makes a lot of sense to me. If you think of all the people who have turned to VLC (myself included) to achieve weight loss .... they would be limiting a lot of these foods that have goitrogen. I wonder too, if this causes hunger?

I love that avocados and saturated fat are known foods that stimulate the thyroid. Bring on the guacamole and pork rinds!!! Actually, I am going to have avocado soup and egg salad 'sandwich' for my meal today but I will be having it with further confidence that it is going to be helpful!

Jimmy Moore is a brave soul. I can hardly make it to 4 o'clock without any solids and I have hwc in my coffee until then!!!
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Old 04-15-2011, 04:20 PM   #206
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Jimmy Moore eats a lot of junk food in order to promote his sponsers products.

He has IR and still drinks diet soda and eats Atkins and other sweet bars.

A few years ago when he went sweet free, he lost a bunch of weight to the 220's but, he couldn't resist adding sweets back into his diet and it went downhill from there.

I think he's basically a salesman and not to be considered a guru.

He does have good guests, however.
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:24 PM   #207
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Ron:
Glad to hear you say that, I looked at his posts before and thought wow he eats a lot of foods that would make me stall or gain! The Frankenfoods will do it, and I fall prey to them too! And then I can only blame myself, seriously hidden carbs add up and 2 carbs here 3 carbs there are just enough to get me out of ketosis, I can tell! I just ate SF pudding, I know I shouldnt have but sometimes I deal with it rather than binge on something that is not low carb or sugar free.
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:54 PM   #208
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I don't think Jimmy is a good example. He eats a lot of stuff!! and probably does not own up to those bites that he sneaks from his spouse.

He has proven, however, that carb addiction can rear it's ugly head at any moment.
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Old 04-15-2011, 07:08 PM   #209
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Wow, I didn't realize Jimmy ate the junk!!! Hmph. It seems if he lost the weight giving up the LC sweets he should understand the problem!

This is good to know, thanks!

And, yes, I suppose...who knows what anyone else is really doing.
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Old 04-15-2011, 07:34 PM   #210
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Keytones,

It's easy to jump on Jimmy, who is less than perfect. He probably knows that his downfall is sweets. He simply can't resist. He wants to moderate.

I understand this. My problem is booze. I still drink about 10 drinks a week.
I know I could do better with less, or none, but I continue to drink.

Some things I can control and I do, some things I can only moderate, and Thank god I can, so I empathise. This vlc way of life has made it easier for me to control my drinking.

I have only this major weakness and I'm thankful. I'm 95% in the health camp. I used to drink 10 drinks a night. I'm happy with where I ended up.
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