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Old 05-12-2012, 09:03 AM   #1171
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Thank you all!

Gary Taubes in Newsweek!!!!!

Why the Campaign to Stop America's Obesity Crisis Keeps Failing - The Daily Beast

Amber, I am so sorry about your job loss. I am really pulling for you in findng something that you will like better. And great that you are still not smoking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Old 05-16-2012, 08:49 PM   #1172
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Hi everyone.

Sounds like life is happening.....

I was thinking that we should have a LCHF sub forum.
What do you think the moderators would say?

Dr K, Eat Fat Get Thin and any other plan that fits in providing it has a specifically high percentage of fat.

I know, I know, EFGT has it's own sub forum but it has not been used as such for years.
It has the stickies that could be moved quite easily.

So, anyway, the stickies for the various plans at the top, as usual, sample meal/menu, food porn, of course......

What do you think? And what to do to achieve it......
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:35 AM   #1173
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KT, I'm glad you posted. You are doing such nice things for yourself.

Bejewelme, congratulations on being tobacco-free! Am sending you good thoughts for what is next for you.

Cathy, and . Hope you are doing really well!

Shunsweets, do you use extra yolks, per Dr. K? Any offal? I'm glad you are doing so well.

Jem, hi! I think a LCHF sub-forum would be useful. I, too, think the EFGT sub-forum could be expanded to include other LCHF plans, and perhaps some stickies or threads of history/science on LCHF. (As usual, I like reading about the pioneers and the science. ) I'd add my menus and "whatnot". I don't know how expanding the sub-fora works here. Perhaps a request in the Webmaster sub-forum? Those of us who would be interested could add our posts to the request.

I'm counting, weighing and measuring these days, and tracking in a notebook. Am using less cream and more beef fat, which seems to suit me.

Best wishes to everyone for a very lovely week!

It is delightful to have you all posting in this thread again. I've missed this thread.
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Old 05-21-2012, 12:48 PM   #1174
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Auntie Em, so good to hear from you!! I was about to put out a 'missing persons' announcement to try and rouse you!!

I too have missed this thread and am very happy to some of us are present and accounted for!

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Old 05-21-2012, 02:39 PM   #1175
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I'm still here and life is definitely happening for me. I got married in
March and we've been going like teenagers ever since (and before).

I am having no trouble maintaining and my wife loves my way of eating,

We have danced at least a few dances every night since we met in November.
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Old 05-21-2012, 04:39 PM   #1176
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Seems like all are present and accounted for! So glad to hear from everyone.

AuntieEm - I do use extra yolks. Often make an omlette with 1 egg and 2 yolks, a couple strips of cut up bacon and a sprinkle of parmesan (I use the cheap green can stuff as that's what I have and can afford). I aim for 120gm fat, 50 protein, and 20 carb but don't stress if I am lower - almost never higher. I don't eat offal.

CalRon - how nice your new wife likes your diet. What are you cooking these days?

Clackley - would you share your IF plan? I tried Juddd but it wasn't for me. My bgs spiked on up days and I never felt good. I eat two meals a day now breakfast and dinner and that seems to work much better.

Bought a 5 lb slab of sliced, smoked pork belly. Wow - rich, fatty deliciousness. Wish I had access to it more often.
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Old 05-23-2012, 06:02 AM   #1177
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Ron, how nice to have you post here. I'm glad you and your wife are faring so splendidly.

Cathy, I posted a few things in answer to some questions about Meat and Eggs recently. I sometimes click on your name and check most recent post and threads to see "where you are", so to speak.

Shunsweets, that meal sounds grand. My ratios are similar. I gained a few pounds over the winter, so am being strict these days. Carbs in the low 20s. Protein 50-60 and Fat 80-110. Am still fiddling with content of the food plan to try to get rid of allergic reactions. I finally bought a copy of Dr. Richard Mackarness' "Not all in the Mind", and was delighted to find that he wrote about meeting Dr. Donaldson. No new information in the book, just delightful to read Dr. Mackarness' writing. Am checking some things he mentioned, and will post if I find something useful.

Do you know what kind of wood was used to smoke the pork belly? I've enjoyed meat and fish smoked with mesquite or hickory.

Best wishes to all.

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Old 05-23-2012, 09:09 PM   #1178
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KT, that journaling sounds great!! So many little things can be forgotten and then something triggers the memory and one realizes how important.....

Sounds like you're doing some positive physical stuff, as well. Walking and hiking, just that connection w nature is so healing....'tis the season.

Dr K plan seems to be good for you. I remember you saying you're not a fan of vegies so that works, huh?

I seem to eat less produce but my evening meal tends to be smaller and often is some meat sauteed w some vegies or a soup.

Still love the Groves plan which is similar except less specific re where the carbs come from.

Oh, except you are ketogenic?

Ron, I'm so happy that all is well. I keep waiting to see the avatar change.....

Happy summer, everyone.
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Old 05-24-2012, 05:24 AM   #1179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shunsweets View Post

Clackley - would you share your IF plan? I tried Juddd but it wasn't for me. My bgs spiked on up days and I never felt good. I eat two meals a day now breakfast and dinner and that seems to work much better.

Bought a 5 lb slab of sliced, smoked pork belly. Wow - rich, fatty deliciousness. Wish I had access to it more often.
I simply fast from one evening to the next. I allow myself 2 coffees. I try to do this 2 days per week. When my fasting time is up, I have a snack and then my regular low carb meal.
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Old 05-24-2012, 03:48 PM   #1180
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Shunsweets, how is your husband?

It's been a while but I remember he was battling cancer.....hope it's all going well and he is winning.
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Old 05-24-2012, 04:27 PM   #1181
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Oh, and back to the subject of LCHF sub forum; I sent a pm to administrator this morning so hopefully this idea will at least be considered.

If anyone here feels compelled, you could send her a pm supporting the idea.

I love our little group and the discussion. All this information would be so helpful to those who are searching....

Auntie Em, your journal is lost so I could not tell you about my big supermarket scores; 3# tub of Daisy SC, $1.50
2 1# Rose Valley organic, unsalted butter $2.50 each
4 packages Niman Ranch Kentucky Bourban sausage 79 CENTS each!!

I love Niman Ranch products and have never paid full price....whenever there's a deal, I fill the freezer.

The butter will be turned into ghee tomorrow since I have pastured butter vacuum sealed for just eaten.

I used to buy these big tubs of SC but quit when I started living alone...BUT I am up for the challenge.
It'll be great for summer weather dressings.....coleslaw, mock tater salad or just a bed time snack....yummoo.

I decided to make some revolution rolls tomorrow for the weekend....good way to use some of that butter!!

Anyone doing anything exciting for the wknd?
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Old 05-25-2012, 05:34 AM   #1182
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Hi Jem. I'll be watching for the high fat sub forum if it comes about. If not maybe we can keep in touch here. I've been reading the studies coming out of Sweden supporting HF for diabetics. Amazing that the AMA and ADA are so shocked by these results. Maybe they will finally wise up and start giving better dietary advice to diabetics. Really their current reccomendations are borderline malpractice!

My husband is still fighting CA. He has taken the last 2 months off treatment to regain some strength and because he is discouraged that despite surgery, radiation, and chemo his CA is still active. He goes for his next set of tests in June and may have to resume chemo then if he will agree. Good news is he is feeling quite well right now and enjoying life. Thank you for asking.

We have the 3 grandchildren here for the next 3 days. Ages 10, 5, and 3. Very busy, happy time. I shudder at their diet but that is not my battle. Their parents believe in letting the children eat whatever they want - sigh. So no exercise for me the next couple of days unless one counts chasing after children and swimming in the river lol.

Never looked at the journals here on LCF's. Didn't realize people were sharing shopping tips and finds. May have to do a search! I must shop today even with the childrenas we are out of everything and I can only fit in shopping on my days off so must get to it.

I'm off the next 2 days but working memorial Day so no plans. Maybe DH and I will grill a tasty rib eye as our holiday treat.

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Old 05-25-2012, 05:38 AM   #1183
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Jem, here is the missing thread "journal". I think threads go into an archive if they are not posted in for 30 days. Congratulations on your finds!

Nothing unusual these days. The hummingbirds and fireflies are starting to appear. I've got a batch of hh yoghurt incubating, and am reading Dr. Richard Mackarness' book, Not All in the Mind, from 1976 about allergies. It has some good information about Dr. Blake Donaldson, pre-agricultural eating, and is excellent reading.

Sending you all good thoughts for a happy, healthy day.
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:51 AM   #1184
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Well, my request got turned down. They reviewed our thread and decided there're not enough members.

I understand but was hoping that they would see that it would be more active if 1) combined w EFGT and other high fat plans. 2) Realise how many questions go w/o real answers pm ML, EFGT, etc.

Maybe it'll happen later....

If we ever need to start a new thread, maybe rename it to include others.......

I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed but knowing that you all are here makes it fine, just fine!!
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Old 05-25-2012, 12:15 PM   #1185
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Thanks for trying Jem.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:27 PM   #1186
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Jem, thanks for trying. I think the Paleo sub-forum came about due to so many threads being posted about it. To me, LCHF is the crux of LC, but it looks as though those of us who think that way are few in number. I, too, think that if all the LCHF threads were put in a sub-forum that it would attract more folks. Drs. Donaldson and MacKarness made great impressions on me, and then Dr. K via Peter, rather wrapped up that necessity, for me. Thanks again for trying!

Shunsweets, I didn't see your post earlier. Am sending you and your DH good thoughts and praying for him to be well.
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:16 AM   #1187
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Jem, and anyone else interested. I am not very good with details on a computer. I have been able to post a picture to my profile at my user control panel, but can't transfer it to my avatar spot. When I click on my name, it shows a picture of my wife and I. Presumably, if you click my name, you will see it.
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Old 06-02-2012, 09:17 AM   #1188
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Lovely photo CalRon. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 06-03-2012, 09:11 AM   #1189
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Ron, it does appear. I, too, think it is a lovely photo. I'm glad you are doing so well.

Best wishes, all, for a very nice Sunday.
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Old 06-05-2012, 07:56 PM   #1190
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Ron - you are a great looking couple!
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Old 06-06-2012, 08:24 PM   #1191
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Wow, Ron, really nice picture. You two look great together.
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:35 AM   #1192
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Hi All--just a quick update. I'm only 7 pounds away from cracking that elusive 100 pound weight loss. I was as high as 244 recently. I think I've been at it about 6-7 weeks; I can't remember exactly. Down 25 pounds.

I've scaled back the exercise a bit after feeling very poorly trying to do too much. I landed at the doctor's office questioning why I was feeling so horrible; she found I was OK but exhausting myself on low calories doing strenuous exercise. Above average stress echocardiogram (they put me on a treadmill, pushed me to my max heart rate of @175 and waited for me to drop, but I didn't, so they took me off).

Fasting Total Cholesterol: 148
Low Density Lipprotein (LDL) 87
High Density Lipoprotein (HDL) 41
Triglyceride 54
Cholesterol/HDL Ratio 3.61

I need to get my HDL up, but other than that, it seems acceptable. I think low because I have been undereating. I will admit I am curious if what I am doing will result in easy or difficult maintenance. Honestly, I have to try. I want to get healthier.

I am reading through some Lyle McDonald material out of curiosity. He writes books on ketogenic dieting for body builders. I think they cycle through eating carbohydrates on workout days, then back to ketosis afterwards.

He actually says generally people following a low carb diet are not truly eating a high fat diet in the sense people believe. People tend to drop total calories through a reduction in appetite, which reduction comes from the carbohydrates. Fat and protein intake tend to be steady. Suddenly, the fat is a high percentage because of the reduced calories, but fat intake in terms of grams tends not to change much.

Isn't that interesting. I think true in my case. I've thought it is like eating a meal as usual in the typical portions minus the bread/potato/rice (or other carbs) and no sugar. The fat that might have been in the carb servings might be utilized as bacon or cheese or butter or something. Is this how you feel? It got me a long way but I have been stuck until kicking things up lately. Well, I think perhaps...it is hard to remember. I haven't eaten the old carb ways since 2005, save vacations and during some periods of stress.

I am purposely eating less fat trying to lose weight, which is something Kwasniewski has discussed somewhere. There just isn't anything else that can go. I'll return to eating more fat sometime when I am ready to maintain.
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Old 06-10-2012, 12:48 PM   #1193
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KT, I'll be thinking of those seven pounds leaving. I'm glad you are doing so well.

Yes, I've read a couple of places about Dr. K saying to go down to 1.5 on the fat intake until one loses the weight.

I'm counting, weighing and measuring these days. And working on the allergy symptoms by rotating foods, per the rotation diet that Dr. Theron Randolph used. I read about it in Not All in the Mind, by Dr. Richard Mackarness, and am finding it helpful. I got Dr. Randolph's book, Allergies: Your Hidden Enemy, too, which gave a bit more background.

Am still doing 20-25g/CHO, mostly 50-60g/PRO (sometimes up to 70), and fat at 1.5 - 2 of PRO. Once in a while the fat is lower or higher. But that ca. 20%PRO and 80% FAT seems to suit me well.

About the meal contents: I, too, have noticed that I eat meat, fat, and the 4-6g/CHO, which is basically a standard meal without the sweets and starches. I have to keep the PFC ratios where I feel well, or I get out of kilter, which can lead to going off the food plan. The proportions of meat and fat aren't so "standard" for me, as the 80/20 ratios requires that I deliberately add fat. Leaving out the extra fat would put me in very low calorie. I feel much better since making sure that I have one ounce of fat for each three ounces of meat.

I am taking a break from drinking tea, and only drinking decaf coffee every few days, and notice that I feel better.

The little changes do add up to making progress, in my experience.

I'd be interested to know what the others think about meal contents and proportions of PRO and FAT.

Hope everyone is doing really well.
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Old 06-11-2012, 09:00 AM   #1194
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Auntie Em - my ratios are very similar to yours. I eat more eggs and less meats in my diet and don't have a problem getting 80-85% fat every day. I am sometimes short on protein and will have to remind myself to grab on ounce of whatever meat I am making for DH.

I drink a large coffee with cream and sweetener very morning and water the rest of the time. In the cold months I might have tea or just hot water but now ice water is my drink of choice.

Maintaining at my desired weight and full of energy on this diet and keeping myself off insulin for now with bgs in my target ranges. Hope it all keeps working for me as well as it has been for this past year. I do have multiple allergies that are problematic and rely on lots of benadryl and keep lots of trigger foods out of my diet but it is all manageable with a bit of vigilance.

Hello to all and hope you are enjoying health and happiness.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:38 AM   #1195
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Shunsweets, I'm glad you posted. It's nice to have company on these amounts and proportions. I've been enjoying thinking of you eating so similarly.

Congratulations on your blood sugar success! That is wonderful! What a great achievement.

I, too, keep the diphenhydramine handy and avoid trigger foods. (I use generic brands, and find I don't really miss the Benadryl.) I drink more beef broth since starting the break from tea. And I sometimes put a drop or two or three of lemon essence (am not sure what it's called...it's in a small bottle, sold in the baking supply aisle) in seltzer water. I use saccharin tablets sometimes, but they are a trigger for allergic reactions, so I have to limit them. And the saccharin probably disturbs intestinal flora, enzymes, etc.

I was eating more eggs, but am doing Dr. Ted Randolph's rotation diet to try to calm down the allergic reactions, so they come on "test" days, for now.

Inositol powder calms down several of the allergic reactions for me, and magnesium helps, too. I like the afibber magnesium water recipe. Baking soda in water helps me, sometimes, as well.

I, too, have to make an effort to meet the PRO requirement for the day. I'm tracking carefully these days, with rotating the foods, which helps with keeping my amounts right.

Best wishes to all.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:38 AM   #1196
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Hi, all. I hope you are faring splendidly this week.

I started a new thread, in case it should interest you:

Dr. Richard Mackarness and Clinical Ecology.


I made some bone and marrow broth yesterday, and decided to use the fat for spreadable "butter", and quite enjoyed it. I used some on beef liver, and some on hb eggs. Stefansson wrote in The Fat of the Land, that marrow fat stays soft. It's nicely true. It is quite easy to spread and has a pleasant taste, IMO. I enjoy finding something new to use in my food plan.

Sending you all smiles and

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Old 07-08-2012, 11:45 AM   #1197
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Stan posted something interesting about Dr. K's recommending animal fats over vegetable.

Here is the text of the post and the comments:


Unknown keto+glucose oxygen-sparing metabolism?
.
I came across this in the following papers. May be a false lead, may be not.

"Cerebral metabolic adaptation and ketone metabolism after
brain injury", Mayumi L Prins, 2008

"In vivo 13C NMR studies of compartmentalized cerebral carbohydrate metabolism", Rolf Gruetter, 2002

"Brain Metabolism during Fasting", 0.E.OWEN et al., 1967

The papers review ketone and glucose metabolism in brain tissue. Among many of the issues discussed one finds that at a time of trauma, injury, hypoxia or during birth, brain tissue switches to some unspecified (unknown?) type of metabolism characterised by:
increased processing of glucose through the pentose phosphate pathway (PPP),
increased expression of ketone-metabolizing enzymes,
relative reduction of oxygen use and CO2 release, in comparision with the overall rate of metabolism.
It is important to notice that PPP, as described in the literature is a pure glucose pathway oxydative-reductive (oxygen-sparing as compared with the normal glucose oxidative pathway) that is normally associated with NADPH production, used in reductive biosynthesis reactions within cells (e.g. fatty acid synthesis, RNA, cholesterol etc). Based on the known biochemistry, PPP is not supposed to have anything to do with ketone bodies or fatty acid metabolism in general.

Ketone metabolism on the other hand is not oxygen-sparing at all! A simple stoichometric analysis indicate similar oxygen usage per calorie compared with glucose oxidation (but with a significantly reduced carbon dioxide production!).

It is very hard to reconcile 1 and 2 with 3 unless one postulates that a new yet unnamed metabolic process is taking place that oxidizes ketone bodies and at the same time reduces (i.e. takes oxygen out of) glucose, with PPP being a side effect. (It cannot be the traditional anaerobic glucose metabolism because of the reported deficit of lactate)

Quotes (first paper):
Although glycolytic activity is 38% greater in adults than fetal brain, the processing of glucose through the pentose phosphate pathway was 164% higher within the fetal brain compared with adults.
Hypoxic injury reduces oxygen availability and thus decreases oxidative glucose metabolism resulting in increased lactate production. High tolerance to hypoxia has been associated with increased plasma ketone levels...
In addition to neuroprotection from seizures, administration of ketones has been shown to provide protection after hypoxia/ischemia (Table 3).

My comment:

- hard to reconcile with the known metabolism of ketones which requires similar amount of oxygen as glucose (per calorie).

Quote (second paper):
The landmark study by Fox and Raichle in the late 1980s suggested that there is indeed a large increase in glucose metabolism that exceeds the changes in oxygen metabolism (Fox et al., 1988). The concept of uncoupled oxygen metabolism has been supported by reports of small increases in brain lactate during focal activation (Prichard et al., 1991), that initially were very controversial (Merboldt et al., 1992) and that are very difficult to perform. The relatively small magnitude of change in brain lactate is difficult to reconcile with the reported large uncoupling between oxygen and glucose consumption (Madsen et al., 1999).
My comment:

- a well known anaerobic (no oxygen) metabolism involves conversion of glucose to lactate, thus the lack of lactate, is the paradox indicating an unknown oxygen-sparing pathway.

Quote (third paper):

...as stated before, 2.81 mmoles/liter of CO2, should have been produced, with a theoretical respiratory quotient of 0.92 instead of the observed 1.90 mmoles/liter, resulting in a quotient of 0.62. To our knowledge, this deficit in CO2 production can only be explained by a carboxylation [see wiki] reaction with the venous effluent transporting the CO2 in a form not liberated by the acidification used in the standard manometric technique for determination of CO2 and HCO3. According to most observations, the respiratory quotient of brain, which glucose serves as sole energy source, is close to unity (2,3,25). Brain, however, contains enzymes for all the major metabolic pathways (29-31), including fixation of CO2 (31,32); and oxidation of keto acids has been demonstrated in vitro (30,33,34). In addition, Kety et al. (35) noted decreased respiratory quotients in patients in diabetic ketoacidosis; but direct utilization of keto acids has not been found in this condition (3) or in fat-fed animals (36). Guettstein et al. also observed decreased respiratory quotients in patients with cerebral arteriosclerosis (37). Additional indirect evidence for a novel carboxylation reaction which would result in a low quotient has been Sacks' studies on glucose-14C oxidation in human brain whereby only 50% of glucose-carbon that is oxidized is recovered in effluent CO2 and HCO3,(38).

My comment:

Reduction of respiratory quotient to 0.62 meant that the process releases less CO2 than should have been base don the known and expected metabolic pathway. That indicates that the unknown metabolic process does not oxidize carbon to CO2 but leaves it in the residua, while probably (speculating) oxidizing only the hydrogen from ketone bodies with the oxygen atoms reduced from glucose. The result is less need for external oxygen input and less CO2 production. (Mental note: next post about Dr. Jan Kwasniewski!)

(Kudos for Dr. Dav0 for pointing out those papers, and his work on ketone metabolism, please keep it up!)
.
Posted by Stan (Heretic) at 6/02/2012 03:03:00 PM Labels: ketogenic diet, oxygen-sparing metabolism
...
2 comments:

FredT said...
Fat burning produces more h20, less co2 than CHO burning. Co2/O2 ratio is 0.7 for fat, and about 1.0 for CHO, but how can you measure the water production? The issue of testing is we measure what we can measure. Also Fat burning produces more waste heat, but what do I know.

Sat Jun 02, 04:36:00 PM 2012
Stan (Heretic) said...
That was the whole point. They measured CO2 but if the metabolic pathway does not release it then it is going to slip under the radar without detection. Water cannot be easily traced except if they used deuterium.

It remind me seeing some study reporting that all known metabolic energy sources provide only account for only ~70% of the power that heart is delivering. That is probably because of the measuring methods are insensitive to hydrogen pathways if they only track carbon residua, or because of some yet unknown type of fuel.

Interesting isn't it?

Dr. Jan Kwasniewski has always been stressing an importance of hydrogen transport. His way of arguing that fat (animal fat) is the superior fuel was because it contains more hydrogen, and that the reason polyunsaturated fats are not so good is because they contain less H. I used to think that this was a silly argument. Not anymore.


I'm looking forward to his next post on Dr. K.

Last edited by Auntie Em; 07-08-2012 at 11:46 AM.. Reason: corrected some spacing
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Old 07-15-2012, 01:53 PM   #1198
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I found DrK a week ago and added it to my JUDDD regime. I'm happy to find this thread and will spend days reading back. I'm trying to keep the percentages while still doing UD and DD. DDs are a trial but I'm losing weight at a faster rate. I posted today's meals on Optimal Diet (Dr. Jan Kwasniewski) Daily Menus: with your adaptations, :)

KT, thank you for starting this thread. Information about this plan is scarce.
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Old 07-16-2012, 09:24 AM   #1199
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Oropendola - thank you for your post. I am curious to see your results.

What are you cutting on your down days? Are you still eating your minimum protein requirement?
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Old 07-16-2012, 01:31 PM   #1200
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The Johnson calculator recommends 368 calories but I didn't do well there.

7/16 DD
B: Protein Shake Nectar Sweets DrK 1/2 scoop, coconut oil
S: Turmeric Almond Gluc Jello
L: mayo, egg, mustard
S: black olives 4
D: Hormel Turkey Chili 1/4C, coconut oil 1T
S: beets 1/3 C, salad 1C, Blue Cheese dressing

7.94% 30.13 Total Carb Grams
13.26% 26.38 Total Protein
70.63% 62.46 Total Fat
796 Total Calories
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