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Old 02-05-2012, 10:48 AM   #1111
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I take the SN Magnesium Malate, too.
Just ran out and have no money to get more right now (I want to order a bucket of glutamine**, too, after reading the Hyperlipid post you linked to, Auntie Em!!!) so I'm
going to try the MOM water! Forgot about that, but have a bottle of seltzer in the fridge from the last time I meant to make it!
I have tons of the Natural Calm but it causes serious stomach troubles for me.

Hope you all are doing well.
I'd been trying JUDDD and IF but have trouble working my Metformin into the schedule...more bad stomach troubles if I don't take them with enough food...have been doing the "Leptin Reset" high-protein breakfast for a little over a week and while I'm not losing yet, weight is very stable, I have no cravings or urges to snack, and it seems to be helping me sleep better.

I have the big breakfast and then one or two small snack-sized meals (like a bowl of soup, a green salad, or a bit of ham & cheese) much later...
at least 5 hours, sometimes 7 or 8 with no desire to eat.

I like IF but for some reason I was having a harder and harder time falling asleep every day, and I thought there might be a connection to the time I was eating. Dr Kruse doesn't recommend IF for people who may be leptin resistant...maybe once a majority of this weight is off, I will return to IF. It seems a great way to eat & live...so many fewer dishes!!!

**L-glutamine supplementation induces insulin res... [Diabetologia. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI
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Old 02-06-2012, 05:02 AM   #1112
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PirateJenny, thanks for the report about Natural Calm. I'll stick with the SN Magn. malate and the magn-seltzer water. The off-brands of milk of magnesia are the ones without the hypochlorite (bleach).

The magn-water is an economical way to get more magn, due to the increased bioavailability.

I take my supplements with food, too. You are daring doing JUDDD and IF. I like the steadiness of regular meals.

For some reason, which I do not know, taking more Vit D. seems to help with satiety, for me.

Jenny, I'm glad you are doing so well!

Best wishes to all for a very nice morning.
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:48 AM   #1113
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I take at least 1000mg of mag sometimes 1500mg daily and have for eleven years since I had Lyme disease in 2000. It was the only thing that quieted the severe joint pain I was having and if I miss a day the joint pain comes back quickly. I read that the Lyme bacteria depletes magnesium from the body and suspect I still have some bacteria living in my bones where the antibiotics (even IV) couldn't reach it. Anyway the mag does the trick.
Pirate Jenny - I experimented with JUDDD and found it didn't work for my blood glucose levels at all. I take met too so maybe that has something to do with it. Now I eat breakfast at 7, dinner at 6pm, and an evening snack. Works well for me. My diet is meat, eggs, lc dairy, and a scant amount of lc veg, nuts, and seeds - maybe 1/4 cup a day combined. I do sometimes grind the nuts and seeds and make a pancake type thing or a minute muffin but mostly I'm meat, egg, and cheese.
I, too, had stomach upset from the natural calm. Have a canister in the cupboard I should throw out. Sigh - will I ever learn not to buy the fad product of the month?

I so enjoy all the posts from the ladies on this thread. We are all trying so hard to find what works best for us and though each is different, it is so good to have someone to share the journey with. Best wishes to all.
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:10 PM   #1114
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I have Natural Calm but have never used the entire dose....started w a lower amt and never moved up.

I've been doing some JUDDDING and have not yet figured out the ideal system but I am liking it and feel that it may actually reduce my discomfort/inflammation.
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:03 PM   #1115
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Message from KT

Hello all,

I am sorry, my husband has passed away on 1/27. After a long struggle to find a hospital to accept him for heart transplant, he was finally accepted for a total artificial heart by one of the top surgeons in the country. The thinking was that he would not survive a long wait for a real heart due to high antibodies (it would be a rare match to find a heart he would not reject). He passed away after the surgery (he was never taken off of anesthesia, so he never woke up). His heart failure caused multiple problems that resulted in his body being unable to cope with the stress of the surgery. Oddly, the biopsies and testing reflected that his organs were actually in better shape than they actually were. Nonetheless, we knew it would be high risk; it was very difficult to find a surgeon that would accept his case and give him a chance because of his issues, especially the radiation damage/scarring to the chest (which caused his heart problems) which were thought to place him at high risk for surgery.

We were thankful for that chance, and we fully believed he would survive. He did not have to live without hope - and for that I am grateful. We did not in any way talk as if we thought he would not make it, because we really did believe.

It will probably be a while before I am up to coming back to post. I am happy to see the thread still alive and to find your kind thoughts. I appreciate it.

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Old 02-07-2012, 12:07 AM   #1116
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Key Tones, I am so terribly sorry. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

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Old 02-07-2012, 04:53 AM   #1117
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KT, I am very sorry. You are in my prayers, and am sending you best thoughts.
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Old 02-07-2012, 05:44 AM   #1118
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K.T. I am so sorry to hear this devastating news. My heart goes out to you and your family. There are no words to help but please know, that there are people like myself, who have gotten to know you through this kind of odd way and really care.
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:22 AM   #1119
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So sorry to read this. Love to you, KT.
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:55 AM   #1120
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I'm so sorry. This breaks my heart. Take care of yourself, K T.
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Old 02-07-2012, 11:01 AM   #1121
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K.T. - Oh so sorry to read this news. Hugs and prayers to you.
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Old 02-09-2012, 05:33 PM   #1122
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Thank you for you kind thoughts and replies. It means a lot; I really appreciate it. This is such a wonderful support group--I am so happy to find you all here.

I'm not sure when I will be up to regular posting - I hope soon! I will need to my weight is up with all the unhealthy hospital food.
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Old 02-10-2012, 08:52 AM   #1123
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KT, thanks for posting. I'm sending you all good thoughts. I'll look forward to your next posts, whenever that is.

I've been reading bits about the relationship between histamine and estrogen, especially in middle-aged women, and histamine-related weight gain.

Dr. Deans mentions it here. I've read about it at a couple of other blogs, but as I'm not sure about the science at very many other blogs, I am hesitant to post links which I think might be a tad "iffy".

If you all have references or personal experience of the something with elevated histamines and estrogen (seems to be that they elevate each other) mediating weight gain, could you post? Thanks.

ETA: Lucas Tafur has an interesting post up about Adipose Tissue and Immunity.

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Old 02-10-2012, 09:58 AM   #1124
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Here is Jamie Scott's post on histamines, which includes some on the relationship of estrogen, PMS, and histamine.

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Old 02-10-2012, 12:16 PM   #1125
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I hope you will be back to posting regularly too K.T.

Auntie Em, again thank you for the valuable information. The link for Dr. Deans didn't work for me but I will find it - I am sure.
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Old 02-11-2012, 07:24 AM   #1126
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Cathy, I think I might have tried to post a link from my documents and not from Dr. Dean's blog. Here is another try:

Evolutionary Psychiatry: New Podcast Interview, and My Thoughts on "Food Reward"

The histamine info is in the comments.

ETA: How much Vit. K2 do you all try to consume?

There is a list of amounts in various foods, in this article by Chris Masterjohn.

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Old 02-14-2012, 10:03 AM   #1127
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Ran across this page from the Nutrition and Metabolism site from their symposium:

Take-Home Messages From The 2011 Nutrition & Metabolism Society Symposium In Baltimore | ASBP | Specialists in Bariatric Medicine

The title is Take Home Messages from the ...Symposium.

I found it quite interesting.

A tiny excerpt:

Dr. Richard Feinman–“Review of Biochemistry of Ketone Bodies”

Ketones are the body’s preferred fuel (not carbs) because they are protein sparing
Energy doesn’t just come from carbohydrates–acetyl CoA provides it from fat and protein
Gluconeogenesis is a normal part of a fasted state–everyone experiences some form of it
Eating low-carb is “fed” starvation by mimicking it metabolically
Glucose can’t come from dietary fat but ketones bodies step in as the fuel source
Ketone bodies are glucose-sparing because it forces glucose to come from protein
Insulin falls significantly during starvation or low-carb diets
As ketones rise when carbs are reduced, insulin and glucose drops
Ketone bodies kick in to repress reliance on glycolysis by generating acetyl CoA for energy
Glucose can come from dietary carbs, glycogen or gluconeogenesis
Ketones are an alternative fuel the body can use for optimal health
Studies are needed to examine whether high-carb or low-carb diets are best for energy


...

Dr. Stephen Phinney–“Human Keto-Adaptation: Physiology and Function”

Keto-adaptation (the term he coined) occurs when ketones become your body’s fuel source
Keto-adaptation can happen within 2-3 weeks of eating an 80/15/5 diet of fat/protein/carbs
Study of a very low-carb ketogenic diet and exercise found they exercise MORE
Another study of fit bike riders on very low-carb ketogenic diet led to negative nitrogen balance
When you eat low-carb, you change your body at the cellular level
Ketone bodies are an essential fuel for your organs
The future research on low-carb diets should observe renal ketone and urate excretion
Inflammation and fatty acid composition impact should also be closely examined
Why do low-carb diets fail? Fat-phobia or the wrong kind of fats consumed.


You'll recognize almost all the speakers' names.
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Old 02-14-2012, 10:33 AM   #1128
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Thanks, Auntie Em, for posting that this morning. It's things I read over and over, but I forget over and over. I just finished reading Phinney's (and Volek) book (The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living) and he writes of the same thing. I get so worried that I begin to doubt, but I "know" Phinney's right. Thanks for the reminder.
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:10 PM   #1129
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Since we love (or try to love ) offal & organs & such around here...

I bought some chorizo a while back--I don't remember from where, but it might have been WalMart--and froze it. I defrosted it this morning and the ingredients include lymph nodes. Lymph nodes!!! I've never heard of these being eaten!!!

It also has salivary glands and "fat (cheeks)".

Well...it looks like sausage, so I'm gonna cook it up anyway!
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:38 PM   #1130
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Fabulous link Auntie Em. I am particularly interested in the information on cancer. I have a relative that is going through chemo at the moment and wonder how to broach the subject of nutrition with her.... or if I even should. I just find the information so compelling....

Thanks for posting it. I am still waiting for my copy of the Art and Science of Low Carb living....been a month now!!
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Old 02-15-2012, 05:43 AM   #1131
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Hi, RedTeapot, Jenny, and Cathy.

Jenny, how did the lymph nodes taste? Do you know which ones they were? I have no idea if the nodes from different parts of the body give different nutrients.

Cathy, Dr. Kurt Harris has a comment somewhere on his blog that if he had cancer he would go ketogenic, and only eat organic, grass-fed, etc., with no chemicals, additives, etc., of any kind. That staying in my mind. I remember talking with a lady, one day at the grocery store who was looking for chocolate with real vanilla, rather than vanillin, for someone who had cancer. The petro-chemicals in foods and fragrances are very damaging. Do you know about beta glucans? I've read posts of folks taking mega-doses to recover from chemo, or using it in place of chemo.


RedTeapot, it's really nice to have you post in these threads. There aren't too many of us.

I cut out the cheese and feel better. I don't know whether it is the amines or the casein in the cheese, but I'm breathing more easily without it, and more clothes fit less snugly. I may make some mascarpone with hwc and lemon juice, and the hwc/hh yoghurt in small amounts is still all right.

Best wishes to you all for a lovely morning.
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Old 02-15-2012, 09:08 AM   #1132
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I agree w KH, ketogenic for ca...

I think Groves and Dr K are great for maintaining/improving health but when the bell's about to ring, ketogenic!

Clackley, maybe give her the ketogic-diet-resource site.
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Old 02-15-2012, 09:21 AM   #1133
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Jenny, that's funny about the chorizo. I had a lymph node positive cancer--it would perhaps make me feel a little funny eating it. Maybe not. My husband loves chorizo and scrapple. I haven't looked to see if lymph nodes are in it. So much else is....

Re the Vitamin K

While I could afford it, I used the Butter Oil made according to Weston Price's recommendations. If I could afford it, I'd still use it. Now I take the Jarrow bone forumla when I think about it, but I'm going to look into the Thorne formula (thanks, Auntie, for the link). I have eaten natto many years ago when I was macrobiotic--it wasn't bad, really, but I don't think I will go that route again. So, as I can't afford grass fed, yes, I do worry about not getting the Vitamin. Sometimes I buy good Irish butter, but I find it always precipitates a weight gain. I can't moderate my use of it. Yet, the Weston Price butter oil was not particularly tasty--I just thought of it as medicine that I'd chase down with water!

So, what does everyone do to get K2?
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Old 02-15-2012, 09:22 AM   #1134
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Jem, that ketogenic diet resource is a nice site. You recommended it earlier and I've really enjoyed reading there. Thanks!

ETA: RedTeapot, I eat pastured butter and egg yolks for extra K2, otherwise, I count on the K2 in beef and cream. I use 1-2 tsps. of pastured butter per day. I try to eat at least 2 egg yolks per day. Once in a while, I miss a day, and some days I eat 4 yolks.

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Old 02-15-2012, 09:36 AM   #1135
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I have tried to eat a ketogenic diet for 5 or 6 years. I corresponded with the German scientists who were doing the study and featured in Time several years ago. There is so much now about it and I'm glad because I do believe it's helpful--although wasn't there some contradictory evidence that Lucas Tafur posted?


"Glucose restriction for cancer treatment seems reasonable given the evidence on the dependence of most types of cancer on glucose for cell growth and proliferation. Unfortunately, the picture is not that simple (30). Although restricting glucose is a good idea, specially for glucose-dependent tumors, the evidence shows that cancer cells also feed on glutamine. More surprinsingly, some types of cancer can grow on fatty acids (31). Restricting glucose reduces insulin levels, which promotes cancer growth. Nevertheless, ideal levels of blood glucose and insulin for treating cancer can only be achieved via calorie restriction. In fact, many supporters of ketogenic diets for cancer often cite the study of Zuccoli et al (32) on the management of glioblastoma. But very few mention what is stated in the study:
"Due to the hyperuricemia the patient was gradually shifted to a calorie restricted non-ketogenic diet, which also delivered a total of about 600 kcal/day. This diet maintained low blood glucose levels and slightly elevated (++) urine ketone levels due to the low calorie content of the diet."
Despite switching to a non-ketogenic (by definition) diet, the patient still showed progress. In my opinion, besides glucose and protein restriction, calorie restriction (and probably fasting) is the dominant factor for achieving success during cancer treatment."

It's difficult for me to understand completely what he's saying (not very smart, I guess), but I guess the main point is that why it works isn't that simple. Definitely glucose restriction--yes--but look where he says cancer can feed on glutamine and some fatty acids. And that low insulin can feed cancer, too. I guess his final point about calorie and protein as well as glucose restriction is the most important point in this confusing thing for me.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:28 PM   #1136
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Auntie Em--
I ended up chickening out on the chorizo! I looked it up on chowhound and some people mentioned that "superior" chorizo is made with other parts, like pork loin, and the stuff made with glands and nodes is yucky! Also, my son stayed home from school yesterday & he's a vegetarian, so I decided to save the project for another day in case it has a strong or unpleasant smell.
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Old 02-15-2012, 09:28 PM   #1137
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What I do know about cancer from my macrobiotic/vegan/raw romp is that none of those diets help....or not for any length of time.

I spent some time at Hippocrates in the early eighties and was surprised at how cancer pt lost their last bit of strength following a raw, healing diet.

Macrobiotics would sometimes provide a short remission, or slow down, but when the ca returned, it was vicious and death followed shortly.

I have probably seen more cancer in vegetarians and I don't mean those who came upon it to heal the disease. I mean vegetarians who got cancer.

....and that is why I would never choose any vegetarian diet.

AND my mother ate an organic, whole grain/vegie based diet and died from pancreatic ca.
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Old 02-16-2012, 03:20 AM   #1138
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RedTeapot, thanks for posting about that. I didn't work my way through that post of Lucas'. I'm glad you've had such success staying ketogenic. I, too, really like it.

Jenny, hope you can cook some offal soon. Liver is the easiest for me to obtain. I have to drive a good ways to get brains. I haven't ventured into other organs, etc.

Jem, I've heard that from others about macrobiotics. I am very sorry about your mother.
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Old 02-16-2012, 06:49 AM   #1139
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Jem, I would never suggest macrobiotics works either; however, there have been notable instances where it did seem to help. Maybe it was just the radical change or lowering of calories/maybe glucose that did it. I've also seen instances where it didn't. Two of my macrobiotic teachers/counselors died of cancer--one teacher did smoke and was very liberal in his diet(I shared meals with them). These teachers were featured in the 1982 Life magazine about macrobiotis/cancer with Dr. Anthony Sattilaro on the cover. Remember Sattilaro had written a book about how he cured himself of metastatic cancer with macrobiotics. Later, I believe he died. Although the macro community I was involved in said he could no longer stick to the diet. I believe both Kushi's wife and daughter developed cancer as well, but I don't know how they actually ate. I had been vegetarian and then become macrobiotic in 1982. I ate that way for many years, but I found it difficult to sustain. I went from being thin to becoming quite obese. Although I understood the yin/yang theory, I developed intense cravings. It didn't work for me,and I transitioned very abruptly from macrobiotics to Induction Atkins (72) in 1997. I lost weight. I conquered my cravings. I developed cancer. I don't think macrobiotics caused it. Of course I don't blame meat/eggs. Maybe it was the release of the estrogen in all my fat that caused it? Maybe it was growing up in the 1950s with all the pollutants we accepted. Macrobiotics when it is done as was suggested by my counselors was not grain heavy. Lots of miso soup with sea veggies, a little rice or other special grain, small servings of cooked greens, very small servings of beans like aduki, shiitake mushrooms, other special seansonings, tea....if anything, it was lacking in protein and fat, I guess! But it did cause severe cravings.

When I was dx, everyone and his brother had ideas about what I should do. Most people recommended, even my doctors, a vegetarian diet. I wouldn't have gone there again for anything--I did not want to gain weight. I got so many weird suggestions from people that I had considered normal. It was overwhelming. So I would never suggest anything to any cancer patient. At the time of dx, I think most people are just too shell-shocked to do anything. Very few people want to think they are responsible for cancer especially at that time. There is just too much else to deal with. While people don't mean to point out blame, suggesting a change in diet seems to do so. So, what I would offer and do offer a friend who is newly dx is concern, care, books,etc.

Now, if someone asked me (and no cancer patient has), I would tell them about a ketogenic diet. I used it all though my treatment and it helped so much. I think the small servings of protein saved me from ever being sick. In my support group, most of the women were gaining weight and eating all the comfort food they could stomach. I do try to tell people about eating small servings of protein during chemo, but, really, no one has taken me up on it that I know of. Most seem to feel that they're going to eat what they can stomach when they can stomach it. Years and years ago, when I was still macrobiotic, I offered to cook for a friend who was dying of breast cancer. Her response was that she had no energy to eat anything and when she did, if she could stomach pepsi, then she' drink it. I shudder to think how ignorant I must have sounded to this dear woman.

Sorry to go on and on, but I have such strong feelings about all of this.

I also had to edit this because I've given such a bare outline of my specific macro diet. I forgot fermented veggies (big part--I learned to make special pickled veggies) and so forth. I don't know--nothing is as simple as it seems with cancer. Once a person is dx, the cancer can be in his/her body, you know? It just lurks. While I don't believe macro diet will help, it is also true that I could still get it a new cancer or metastasize the old one, and it wouldn't be my ketogenic diet's fault. I believe Taubes said something about that in GCBC, didn't he?

Last edited by coffeepot; 02-16-2012 at 07:27 AM..
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Old 02-16-2012, 09:43 AM   #1140
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The link between cancer and diet also concerns me. My DH is fighting CA that they now believe has metatasized. He has been doing a lower carb diet (about 80gms a day) for 10 years for weight maintenance. The first thing my in laws said was that the crazy diet I have had him on is to blame for his CA. Very hurtful. He is now going even lower carb but not yet ketogenic in the hopes of slowing the CA cells. He did lc throughout the first rounds of radiation and chemo and did very well as far as keeping strength and appetite.
Everything I have read indicates CA mostly feeds on glucose so a ketogenic diet makes sense but I don't think it offers a cure just another weapon in the arsenal. I pray every day that I'll have my DH for many more years and hope I predecease him. I eat a ketogenic diet but my goal has been controlling diabetes. Now I wish I had encouraged DH to stay at my vlc/high fat/ low protein levels all along. Hindsight is always perfect.
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