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Old 03-28-2011, 05:31 PM   #61
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Jem51,

Yes, Kwasniewski is genius, isn't he? Great score on the chicken parts. Since my neck and back are killing me, I have been working on eating these parts! I am sure there is tissue back there that needs some regeneration!

I am about to post another article I read about eating the entire animal instead of just the muscle. We shoot ourselves in the foot by eating only the muscle. Kwasniewski knows what he is talking about.

The cauli recipes - they are good. I have never bothered to rice the cauliflower for pizza, I just steam it until soft, let it drip dry for 20 minutes, then make it. I use a package of frozen cauliflower (or fresh) to 2 eggs and one cup of shredded cheese to make the crust. Or, steam the cauliflower soft, add feta cheese and pepper, oh my gosh this is better than mashed potatoes!

It is going well on the diet! I am sore as heck still from all the yardwork I did the other day and loading junk to take to the dump. Still holding at 227; I could be bloated from the soreness and well, I had a lot of sodium yesterday. I am very pleased!
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Old 03-28-2011, 05:45 PM   #62
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This is not the first time I have heard low carb could cause thyroid problems. Perhaps there is something to this because of eating only the muscle and not eating liver and skin and bone broth soups. If I find more, I will post it.

OK, here is the article by Chris Masterjohn of the Daily Lipid. It is more of an inquiry than an article. I like to read his write ups about cholesterol. I am waiting for him to research and write about whether we should be cooking yolks or not due to oxidation of the cholesterol. He is researaching.

The Daily Lipid: Anyone Doing Paleo Without Liver, Bones, Skin, and Greens?

In the meantime, I am headed for the asian market tonight to get some dried minnows. They eat the entire tiny fish this way, head and all (they are really small, the size of a mini safety pin). I will probably need to make my own; I know the pre-made ones have sugar (it tastes like soysauce, red pepper, a little garlic, green onion, sugar, vinegar). I don't know what they are called. I have read before that minnows are a good source of calcium in the asian diet. I had not thought about the aspect of eating the entire animal before. This might be the only way I can do it. Also, the smaller fish are supposed to be less contaminated with mercury.
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Old 03-28-2011, 10:00 PM   #63
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I don't know how lc you have to be and for what period to reduce thyroid function but mine was low the entire time I was vegetarian/vegan.
They gradually normalized after I changed to lc.

My most recent numbers were perfect (my NP does the whole panel). Also, I went through menopause during that time, so.....?

Ray Peat has plenty to say on this subject. He recommends potatoes and dairy products, as well. Also, he's the person who started me on gelatin.
Some of his ideas are very contradictory so people who try to follow his recommendations are usually confused.
Peat is also the first person who has been talking about cystiene in muscle meat being a problem in the long run.
Just in the past month or so have I read the other health bloggers mention it.....interesting stuff.

Dr K is much more clear even w the language barrier. But there is still some confusion, although, the basics are pretty clear.
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Old 03-28-2011, 10:17 PM   #64
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Jem51,

Thank you! I will check out Peat. Interesting, potatoes, dairy, gelatin, excellent.

I have heard many more times the vegan-soy based diet is so bad for the thyroid, I am sure it much worse for thyroid. I tried it once and became so lethargic, I don't know how people can do it. It is good to hear that you recovered on low carb!

Heh, I bought my "minnows" from the market. The clerk was so confused I had to point to the pre-made dish with the sugar and he said, "Oh, ANCHOVIES!" Heh, I am so silly. I bought whole anchovies dried. I couldn't find them because I thought they would be on the shelf, but they are kept in the freezer even though they are dried and salted (like beef jerky--asians eat all sorts of "fish jerky").

Ugh, they so salty, I am soaking them in water. The dehydrated ones never rehydrate, though, so no worries. I will then put them in light soy sauce, eryrithritol, red pepper, a little rice vinegar, and a little sesame oil for flavor. Hmm, I can't put them on rice, so I suppose I will have some cauliflower.

Oh, wait, potatoes! It is so funny, I keep forgetting to eat them!

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Old 03-29-2011, 08:33 AM   #65
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I don't know if you saw any talk of the study that compared a paleo diet w.....maybe it was mediterranian...can't remember.
Anyway the paleo included no more than 2 med potatoes daily and did not place limitations on fruit.

Even though the paleos consumed substantial amt of fruit along w the potatoes, blood glucose readings improved dramatically and much more so than the other group (of course).

Of course, the paleos ate no dairy. But I am not of the mind that dairy is a real culprit in diabetes. Except the obvious, such as skim milk. But since I don't use it, have never tested after......
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Old 03-29-2011, 10:58 AM   #66
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KT- can you eat the anchovies in olive oil in the jar they are yummy? I dont know about dried ones, that might gag me, I love the ones in the jar though I eat the whole jar if I make pizza or cesar salad, LOL
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Old 03-29-2011, 11:40 AM   #67
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Jem51--I didn't see the comparison on paleo but it makes total sense. I understand paleos see modern fruit as frankenfoods because they have been bred to be so large and sweet and select lower carb fruits like berries instead.

Bejewelme--thanks! I am working way to hard to get my food, LOL! I know people get anchovies to make pizza and salads, I always thought they were going to the asian market! I suppose I should just check the shelf where the tuna is! Wow, anchovies in olive oil sounds yum!
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Old 03-29-2011, 02:06 PM   #68
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Glad I found this thread. I read the book a couple of months ago. I haven't started yet though. I guess I haven't started yet because I'm just not sure what to eat. I don't eat organ meats, so I would be just eating cheese, egg and muscle meats. Which sounds like its okay as long as you add in enough fat. I would really love to find some recipes for high fat/low protein meals.

About the thyroid and low carb. I read Dr Broda Barns, he says that if you eat too much carb or protein it will be hard on the thyroid and you would need to up your thyroid meds. He says to lose weight you should be at 50g carb, 70g protein and 90g fat with 1300 calories. He started his patients on this diet in the 1930's. Most patients lost 2-3 lbs per week on this.

I can't find the other forums people were talking about. Maybe they would have some recipes.
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Old 03-29-2011, 02:55 PM   #69
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Welcome Goose1!

Thank you for the Barns diet/thyroid info. It is so interesting learning about this lower protein - 50 carb approach.

Kwasniewski isn't super strict about disallowing foods as long as off plan foods are used for flavoring/condiments. Of course, you can only go so far with 50 grams of protein and 50 carbs, esp. with the potato. I am thinking a chinese stir-fry one night on my vacation could work if I request no corn starch/no sugar. I'll be away for a few days this week.

Don't forget about making soups from bones. I made such a good chicken broth the other night! It is very gelatinous when cold so I think I did a good job with it - a little apple cider vinegar to draw out the calcium, and it was just some chicken wings I couldn't fit on the baking sheet for the family's hot wing treat, carrots, onions (I buy onions from Trader Joes in the freezer section - great to pull out for this!) and cauliflower. I simmered it for hours and added the veggies the last hour.

I need to go to a butcher shop and buy chicken backs/necks - I love that idea from Jem51, and also to stir in egg yolks (remove from heat first, I would think?). I might try pork bones; I haven't done that yet.

I have read so many times that a high calcium diet causes a significant boost in weight loss. I am a big believer in this, but not with yogurt/milk as it is usually stated in the health news.
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Old 03-29-2011, 05:09 PM   #70
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I tried to order the Optimal Nutrition book, I scanned the order form and e-mailed it.

I haven't heard anything back.

Keytones, did you hear back right away that they received your order? I sent the email to the publishing company in Poland.

I have been following this thread daily! I'm so happy you started this. I have been stalled over a year and want to give this a try.
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Old 03-29-2011, 05:22 PM   #71
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When I ordered the book I had to fax my visa number to them. Then the book came in about 2 weeks.
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Old 03-29-2011, 05:27 PM   #72
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Joannamaria,

Thanks for popping in! I would love to hear your take on the book.

No, they never replied to my email. I attached the order form as a pdf to the email. Apparently, they received it just fine. It took weeks to get here!

Don't freak out about a year-long stall. I was stalled at 265 forever, it was several months. I am sure I have longer stalls in my future. I have lost all my weight in my 40s. It is possible!

I am down another pound to 226 today. Seriously, I think minimal protein is key for me. Also, in line with what Kwasniewski says for the obese, I am not eating as much fat as recommended for everyone else--this is obviously where to cut calories.

50 grams of protein, 50 carbs, and just enough fat to satisfy. I think I am understanding this now--if you eat just barely enough protein, then you don't have any to spare protein to convert to glucose.

I noticed I had to eat more the two days following that huge amount of yard work and trash hauling I did, but my appetite is back down yesterday and today. My thoughts are if I were a gym rat I would need more protein than 50 grams. Of course, his bag is treating patients with ailments--he is not working with bodybuilders or anything. LOL, no risk in that for me anyway.

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Old 03-29-2011, 05:50 PM   #73
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KT- I am glad you are getting the hang of this, I am cheering you to the century club you are so close!!!!!!!! I love anchovies, I ate half a jar tonight on cesar salad, that was my dinner and then protein shake since it seemed light on protein and I did my workout, 1 hour of cardio tonight and ab machines.
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Old 03-29-2011, 06:03 PM   #74
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KT, I was about 15# more a$$ than now when I found Eat Fat Get Thin. I changed my ratios and bam! those #'s just fell off. I was amazing.

To temper your egg yolks; beat the yolk(s) a few strokes then add a spoonful of hot stock while beating. Do this a few times til it's warmed up then add it to the soup whisking all the while.
The soup should be done and at serving temp when you do this so don't heat it again.
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Old 03-29-2011, 06:08 PM   #75
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Bejewelme,

Heh, I had anchovies for a snack tonight, they were so good! Just a tiny bit of sesame oil and it changes the flavor. It scared my daughter, though, she wouldn't come near them and my husband can't look.

Sigh, my daughter won't drink the egg yolk shakes, even though she drank them just fine and thought they were good several times before she knew! Oh well, she likes easy over eggs anyway.

Good you on the workouts! Oh my gosh, I wish I had that kind of drive. I might do Callanetics again, you should see the pics this girl posted. I've done those before and liked them. These are mostly just posing/stretching exercises with tiny movements!!!

CALLANETICS AFTER 40 HOURS pICTURES (NO DIET)

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Old 03-29-2011, 06:17 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jem51 View Post
KT, I was about 15# more a$$ than now when I found Eat Fat Get Thin. I changed my ratios and bam! those #'s just fell off. I was amazing.

To temper your egg yolks; beat the yolk(s) a few strokes then add a spoonful of hot stock while beating. Do this a few times til it's warmed up then add it to the soup whisking all the while.
The soup should be done and at serving temp when you do this so don't heat it again.
Oh, thank you for the egg yolk in soup instructions!

I have Eat Fat Get Thin; I should pull that out to review. I order stacks of books at a time and skim them and they run together in my mind. Excellent work on the weight loss! Very encouraging!
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Old 03-30-2011, 06:26 AM   #77
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Joannamaria,

Thanks for popping in! I would love to hear your take on the book.

No, they never replied to my email. I attached the order form as a pdf to the email. Apparently, they received it just fine. It took weeks to get here!

Don't freak out about a year-long stall. I was stalled at 265 forever, it was several months. I am sure I have longer stalls in my future. I have lost all my weight in my 40s. It is possible!

I am down another pound to 226 today. Seriously, I think minimal protein is key for me. Also, in line with what Kwasniewski says for the obese, I am not eating as much fat as recommended for everyone else--this is obviously where to cut calories.

50 grams of protein, 50 carbs, and just enough fat to satisfy. I think I am understanding this now--if you eat just barely enough protein, then you don't have any to spare protein to convert to glucose.

I noticed I had to eat more the two days following that huge amount of yard work and trash hauling I did, but my appetite is back down yesterday and today. My thoughts are if I were a gym rat I would need more protein than 50 grams. Of course, his bag is treating patients with ailments--he is not working with bodybuilders or anything. LOL, no risk in that for me anyway.
Hi Keytones! This is great that this is working for you!

I did the ratio they have on the Optimal diet site and according to them I need 52 grams of protein, 130-182 grams of fat and 26 grams of carbs. I'm not very tall, only 5 feet.

In the book does it say to eat 50 carbs?

Thanks!
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Old 03-30-2011, 06:27 AM   #78
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When I ordered the book I had to fax my visa number to them. Then the book came in about 2 weeks.
Thanks for the information. I scanned the order form and attached it to hotmail, I hope they got it!
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Old 03-30-2011, 07:35 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Joannamaria View Post
Thanks for the information. I scanned the order form and attached it to hotmail, I hope they got it!
Your welcome. I forgot you could scan it, I couldn't because my husband was away on business. I still don't know how to scan things.
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Old 03-30-2011, 10:27 AM   #80
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I read that the netfirm site is not JK authorised but some guy who follows the plan. That is probably my confusion; he has sort of made his own plan and then throws it in as if JK wrote it himself.

The site is good for OD basic info but just be aware.

I googled around trying to find the reference to soaking liver in lemon juice to reduce smell/strong flavor.
It seems that just straight up lemon juice for the day will do it. I'm assuming that a rinse is in order before cooking.

KT, JK has a recipe for egg white bread and recommends saving up the whites (freezer) then when you have enough.....Obviously not enough fat so plenty of butter would be in order.
I haven't done that since I have a dog (garbage disposal should've been her name).

I also see a recipe for milkshake using orange juice and cream. Sounds like an easy way to keep ketosis at bay.
I may try this today but have navels so will just take away the peel and pith and pop the mess in the magic bullet. Adding an egg yolk wouldn't hurt since I am still just hitting 2/daily.

I still have the problem w too much fat since my chicken skin lunch became an acidy lump several hours after consuming.
It's fine, really, I'll just be at the lower end of the fat ratio.
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Old 03-30-2011, 10:58 AM   #81
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I made the egg white bread. I used a regular bread pan. It fell a bit in the middle. I think next time I would just use a round cake pan. I thought it tasted pretty good. I did feel a little guilty eating it since it has white flour in it.
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Old 03-30-2011, 05:05 PM   #82
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Hi all,

I haven't been avoiding this site, my computer was down since Sunday and I've been without internet service. I didn't realize how addicting the internet is.

I'm doing fine on the limitation of protein, but I'll never get to the 200-300 grams of fat. Also, when I have a 4 egg meal, I'm really hungry a few hours later. This is something I haven't experienced in almost a year of near zero carb.

I read online about protein limits which is based on height. You have to convert your height to centimeters and subtract 100 from the number. I'm 6'2" or 74" and this works out to 188 centimeters or 88 grams of protein. I'm able to get 130+ grams of fat which is far short of the requirement.

I'm only eating 1500-1600 calories a day which I don't believe is enough.
I'm still playing around with it.
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Old 03-30-2011, 07:51 PM   #83
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Goose, did you let the bread cool in the oven. That is supposed to help w falling. I still get it to some degree w oopsies, etc but they are flourless so I sort of expect it....still yummy.

Ron, that's the problem. If you cannot consume that much fat (I can't) then where do the cals come from? Then if you're eating near zero vegetation, you can't even bump up fat on salads or vegies.
My digestion is nearly halted by very high fat. Makes me miserable.

Of course, w both Groves and JK, dairy is not limited, which helps. But still, if I do the calculations, I never seem to get beyond 65 on a regular basis.

Really, I'm okay w that. Certainly it's still higher fat.
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Old 03-30-2011, 08:30 PM   #84
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All - I'm just popping in to say hi; I've been out all day (tired) and I am leaving in the morning for a roadtrip (college tours).

Jonnamaria - yes, the book says 50 carbs. This is to prevent the stress on the body of converting protein to glucose. Please note he is known for treating various illnesses with his diet, so preventing the body from carrying out an unnecessary job for someone that is ill is important.
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Old 03-31-2011, 08:04 AM   #85
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Jem, yes I left the bread in the oven to cool. It still taste good, just doesn't look as nice.
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Old 03-31-2011, 05:36 PM   #86
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I'm still here too!

I am trying to do this diet. I feel scared though eating the extra carbs.

I hope this will work for me, I'm thinking it will because I used to eat LOTS of protein. Maybe all the protein I was eating was stalling me.

Hope everyone is having a nice evening!
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Old 03-31-2011, 07:18 PM   #87
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KT- wow those pics are something, I was thinking I would stuff like that while recouping found out no gym is because raised blood pressure from exercise can create more bruising and swelling, so I thought I would stand around striking my yoga poses with Frankenstein arms, LOL

I am glad you like the anchovies they are tasty never added sesame oil, I scarf them down too fast!!!

Did I tell you about the Turkey Creek pork rinds? OMG they are so good I have never tried a pork rind that I liked they are freaking awesome!!! I am so glad I found a salty crunchy vehicle!
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Old 04-01-2011, 06:34 PM   #88
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My last post lamented that I'd never get to the 250 or so fat grams required by this plan.

In a post on PaNu some time ago Dr. Harris suggested drinking cream.

I dismissed this out of hand, but in an effort to meet the requirements of this plan I tried it today. I drank 4 oz at 411 calories with 44 grams of fat and 2.7 grams protein. I'm very sceptical, but I'll give it a fair try. 2 weeks or so.

It certainly does change the ratios.
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Old 04-01-2011, 10:27 PM   #89
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I think I've hit the fat wall!!

Am struggling w acid. EVERYTHING causes it. Terrible.

Gotta back off the fat some...I was so loving all the butter and such.
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Old 04-01-2011, 10:56 PM   #90
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,341
Gallery: Key Tones
Stats: 312/212/??? 5/10" The real age 49
WOE: 2014 Nutritional Ketosis Experiment Begins
Start Date: LC'05,'10Paleo,'13 S.Guyenet+S.Roberts'14C.Kresser
Hi All,

I'm on a road trip, so I don't have a lot of time to read/post.

Bejewelme - yep, I ordered the pork rinds! I can't wait to get them!

Jem51--sorry to hear about the acid! I don't know what to suggest. Tomato sauce seems to do it to me.

Oh my GOSH eggs benedict are so good! I'm glad you suggested this; IHOP had them.

CalRon--I love this post by Kurt Harris. He calls cream diesel fuel; I love that. It is interesting to read his responses to the comments and questions that follow it.

PaNu - P

I am thinking of buying half and half. It has only 10 carbs per cup per nutritiondata.com. Kwasniewski suggests mixing milk with cream in his book (I think it was 30% of the drink?). I know they have it at Costco.

I am a little worried myself about the diet; my skin is getting very dry and my hives are getting worse (had to take Zyrtec last night). I am suspecting the eggs since I have increased them and I haven't been able to get much cream or butter on the road trip. I hate to jump to conclusions, though, since I always have some allergic reaction going and it could just be something about the trip. We'll see when I get home.

I am eating way too much! Wow, restaurant food is sooo good. I won't be weighing right away when I get home!
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