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Old 05-09-2011, 12:00 AM   #451
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I've heard something like this...maybe in the Shangri-La Diet, as well as other sources...

...that the more variety you have, the more you tend to eat/overeat. If you limit yourself to the same few (nutritious) foods every day, your calorie intake will be more in line with what you really need.

So it kinda cracks me up when I see advertising for product lines/diets saying that all the variety they offer (40 flavors of yogurt!) will help you not get bored with your weight loss plan. Umm, no. That's not how it works!

All of my life I have been around people who fast regularly (for cleansing or healing, or spiritual reasons, not necessarily for weight loss) and as a child was forced by my parents to fast when they did. One pseudo-fast is called the mono-diet; you choose one food and can eat as much of it as you want. Usually brown rice is suggested, but avocados or eggs might be a more balanced option.

I have often considered trying to limit myself to simpler foods, but never make it past a meal or two without pulling out the hot sauce or mustard or SOMETHING! As a person who LOVES different flavors & lots of spices, I bet I have at least 40 jars of sauces, dressings, pickles, & curry pastes in my fridge!!!
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:11 AM   #452
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Good Morning.

I like simple. I like simple shopping, simple cooking, simple eating, simple washing up.

I have a couple of old cookbooks which address using spices and sauces to stimulate appetite in those who are recovering from illness.

Butter, a few herbs and black pepper serve me well. I like meat to taste of meat, not something else. Same for eggs, cheese, cream or fish, or those few vegetables. To me, strong spices and fancy sauces are disguises.

Food symbolizes so many different things to us. I enjoy my meals and look forward to them, but I don't need them to be entertaining or decorative. I prefer to eat my own cooking, rather than go to a restaurant. I sometimes wonder if we all naturally gravitate towards the way of eating we had as children. We assimilate so very much of our family culture and the social milieu of our young years.

In reading the menu thread at the Maintainers' forum, it looks as though each one has found food that works well for maintenance and preferences, and that each one pretty much stays with those things, unless in weight loss mode, or there is some special occasion for which that person chose to eat different foods.

Best wishes to all for a lovely morning.
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Old 05-09-2011, 05:46 AM   #453
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Pirate Jenny- I am like you, I swear I needed a second fridge for the copious amounts of hot sauce we have and condiments. That article from KT made me think, I was just looking back over my weight loss journal, and when I lost the most weight, I stuck to very simple, meat, eggs, cheese, no frankenfoods, and meat with not many sauces or accompaniments. I need to get my mojo back, I am still managing to lose, but lost 6 pound last month, I need to keep at 10-12 per month and it really is my own fault, a Mexican dinner here, Mothers Day cupcakes and brownies, then I get so mad at myself. The thing is, when being strict on LC and sticking to simple foods, I really don't crave the other stuff. I have a big hunk of beef in the crock pot with onions and salt and pepper and I am eating that meat all week, and sticking to plain stuff. I can always let the carb kings add whatever they want to their food. So my goal is to get 10 pounds off by Memorial Day and I know I can if I eat simply and go to the gym 5-6 days a week, and drink plenty of water!
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:04 AM   #454
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Everyone is so different. Some would not make LC a way of life w/o variety. We never know where we fit until we arrive at that crossroad.

Many that are really strict go off the deep end w carb binges when they could've just had something less damaging.
Then there are those who have no weight or binge eating issues but go lc for health reasons; suddenly carbs become binge food.

Auntie Em I started a post re BG yesterday but got called out so lost it. I'll try to remember; Petro says not to worry about BG readings since A1C will tell the tale.
Then some primal eater gets an increase in A1C and one of our LC bloggers says that A1C is inaccurate.
Dr B (who actually has YEARS of experience) says any higher readings are causing damage.

So, you pick your guru and decide if you can chance it.
I will not follow anyone just because their opinion fits my lifestyle...I need some proof or at least some solid, long term experience.
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:27 AM   #455
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Hi, Jem. Thanks for your post. I, too, take both Peter Dobromylskyj's and Dr. Bernstein's words seriously. Dr. B's book made such an impression on me that I follow his 6-12-12, constant protein, and small numbers.

I don't remember the question I asked you, and can't find my post. But, I was interested in your own experiences.

Dr. Deans has been posting about brain chemistry, and food which nourishes, supplements and such, as well as genetics. It's been interesting food for thought.

I agree with Peter about no gurus.

Thinking for ourselves and understanding as much of the science as we can, IMO, is vital. I like what you wrote about proof or solid, long-term experience.

Hope your day is going very nicely.
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Old 05-09-2011, 10:10 PM   #456
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I have tossed a few things to get back to basics. I think I can't have the BBQ pork rinds around!!!

I can usually get down to eliminating all but a few questionable things. Right now, it is sweeteners, dairy, and chocolate.

Amber/Bejewelme is a weight loss machine! Interesting, I have seen Reva post the same sort of message - avoid treats, eat dishes plain without condiments. Hmmm, I wouldn't even want to eat a hamburger that way, seriously! I have to think about that.

Ugh, being away all weekend means I am behind on cooking! No soup on hand!

Oh, that reminds me! My MIL says that she cracks chicken bones with a clean pair of pliars! Isn't that cool? I have never heard of that. She says she does it to make the soup taste better. My husband's family are farmers that grew up in the mid-west. My MIL doesn't read books on nutrition and hasn't heard of the paleo diet.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:17 AM   #457
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Hi, KT. I've seen folks use pliers on bones, and have seen plenty of pairs of pliers in kitchen drawers. I use beef bones, but don't know if I would want to take a saw to them.

Hope you all are having a lovely start today.
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:18 AM   #458
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LT- yeah I know for a fact when I eat simpler I lose more the problem is I get bored, I use the liquid splenda, the EZSweetz, I dont have a problem with artificial sweeteners, although I know they are probably not the best at least they don't give me problems, like some girls get bad headaches and stuff from them. GOtta stick to it, I got on a new skirt from Old Navy and it is big, I cant believe it, it is an XL, 2 weeks back at the gym and I gained weight but I swear I lost inches, so I am trying not to sweat the scale, I feel like I am never going to get under 200!!!!
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:40 AM   #459
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Here is an interesting article on artificial sweeteners. I heard Gary Taubes comment that this may be the subject of his next article or book. I hope so as he is great at getting at the actual science!

Do Artificial Sweeteners Cause an Insulin Spike? | Mark's Daily Apple
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:11 AM   #460
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Yes it would be interested in hearing Taubes's thoughts. I do agree that I build up a tolerance where I need more and more splenda for it to taste sweet, but I only use the liquid form, the powdered form just doesnt taste sweet enough to me. I am now putting 3 drops in my coffee, my BF took a sip and thought I was nuts
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:18 AM   #461
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Clackley/Cathy - great article! Thank you for posting! I would love to hear Taubes on this!!!

Heh, I only *talk* about giving up sweeteners. Maybe someday. I am on my third week with no coffee, and therefore my sweetener intake is down substantially which means my intake of cream is down.

Not that this has resulted in any weight loss!

Yet! (I never give up! shakes fist vigorously)

I am not getting on the scale until this Mother's Day bloating has blown over. Road food, holiday restaurant meals (even on plan, gosh, what do they put in the food), and being trapped in a car (um, for me this always results in a digestive 'back up') makes for scary weigh ins!!!

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Old 05-10-2011, 03:13 PM   #462
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Hi, all.

I know it was only a rat test, but this trial showed that sodium saccharin, sodium cyclamate, and stevioside, and acesulfame-K, each increased insulin production. There is only an abstract, none of the links show a full text, except for members, payment, etc.



Effects of Artificial Sweeteners on Insulin Release and Cationic Fluxes in Rat Pancreatic Islets


Willy J. Malaissea, , Anne Vanonderbergena, Karim Louchamia, Hassan Jijaklia and Francine Malaisse-Lagaea
aLaboratory of Experimental Medicine, Brussels Free University, 808 Route de Lennik, B-1070 Brussels, Belgium
Received 29 November 1997; accepted 1 February 1998. Available online 23 November 1998.
Abstract
β-l-Glucose pentaacetate, but not α-d-galactose pentaacetate, was recently reported to taste bitter and to stimulate insulin release. This finding led, in the present study, to the investigation of the effects of both bitter and non-bitter artificial sweeteners on insulin release and cationic fluxes in isolated rat pancreatic islets. Sodium saccharin (1.0–10.0 mM), sodium cyclamate (5.0–10.0 mM), stevioside (1.0 mM) and acesulfame-K (1.0–15.0 mM), all of which display a bitter taste, augmented insulin release from islets incubated in the presence of 7.0 mM d-glucose. In contrast, aspartame (1.0–10.0 mM), which is devoid of bitter taste, failed to affect insulin secretion. A positive secretory response to acesulfame-K was still observed when the extracellular K+ concentration was adjusted to the same value as that in control media. No major changes in 86Rb and 45Ca outflow from pre-labelled perifused islets could be attributed to the saccharin, cyclamic or acesulfame anions. It is proposed that the insulinotropic action of some artificial sweeteners and, possibly, that of selected hexose pentaacetate esters may require G-protein-coupled receptors similar to those operative in the recognition of bitter compounds by taste buds.

Keywords: Artificial sweeteners; Pancreatic islets; Insulin release


Pubmed has some great stuff. Too bad I don't have Peter Dobromylskyj's knowledge and talent in deciphering the reports!

Here's a report of a test on mice, showing that the artificial sweeteners, saccharin, sucralose, and acesulfame-K, increases insulin secretion:

Sweet taste receptor expressed in pancreatic beta-... [PLoS One. 2009] - PubMed result

Here is the full text.

An excerpt:

From a practical point of view, the present study raises an interesting possibility that agonists for the sweet taste receptor may be good therapeutic candidates to augment insulin secretion. For this purpose, the putative compounds or artificial sweeteners should be absorbed efficiently as an intact molecule and should have access to β-cells via circulation. Since artificial sweeteners are not fuel, they provide insulin secretagogues without affecting the metabolism. Given that sweet taste receptor agonists increase calcium and especially cAMP in β-cells, they can be useful stimulators of insulin secretion. In this regard, it should be mentioned that sucralose is an artificial sweetener and used as a noncaloric sweeteners to reduce the intake of sugars. It is shown that the compound does not affect the glycemic control in diabetic patients [22], [23]. However, since sucralose increases insulin secretion in a dose-dependent manner, high dose of the compound may aggravate hypoglycemia.


Another excerpt:

To determine the function of the sweet taste receptor expressed in MIN6 cells, we examined whether artificial sweeteners affected insulin secretion. As shown in Figure 2A, sucralose stimulated insulin secretion in the presence of a low concentration of glucose. Likewise, saccharin stimulated insulin secretion and acesulfame-K was much more potent. Note that 50 mM mannitol did not affect insulin secretion (data not shown). Saccharin and acesulfame-K also increased insulin secretion induced by a high concentration of glucose. Figure 2B depicts the dose-response relationship of the sucralose effect. The effect of sucralose was evident at a concentration of 50 mM. As shown in Figure 2C, sucralose augmented glucose-induced insulin secretion. Hence, agonists of the sweet taste receptor in the taste buds of the tongue were able to induce insulin secretion from MIN6 cells.


and:

Conclusions

Sweet taste receptor is expressed in β-cells, and activation of this receptor induces insulin secretion by Ca2+ and cAMP-dependent mechanisms.




I don't know the search tricks to find all trials on a subject at Pubmed. It's a giant place.

There may be trials which show other things.

Those came up at the top of the search list with the phrases:

"saccharine, insulin response", and "sucralose, insulin response".

If someone is an ace at using Pubmed and would like to post away, I'd enjoy reading whatever is found.

Best wishes to all for a very lovely evening.

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Old 05-10-2011, 07:46 PM   #463
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I indulged heavily in dairy after my Whole 30 (which lasted 22 days). And have decided that dairy is not my true love after all.

I needed to be really strict to really see it.
It does not cause digestive issues and in fact the ease of digestion is why I've kept it.

But I just lost that 'feeling great' , light on my feet element when I added dairy back.

After the three week strict paleo, I didn't seem to need it anymore and it was so clear.

So I'm into using a bit of cream in coffee, ghee for cooking and the rest is about the same as always; a few nuts, some fruit......

I'm planning to try some organic, refined CO just to see if I can tolerate it w/o getting cold sores.
Reading Peat made me think it might be the residual coconut in EVCO, so what the heck.
I do love the taste of EVCO and will still use it in cooking where the flavor is needed.

Last night I was watching Bourdain's No Reservations and he started by saying he's on cholesterol meds.
When the doc said he needed to stop eating butter, he figured he'd just use a high quality OO......
Short story; Giving up pork was the deal breaker. He said he'd rather take the meds than give up pork....He's a kick.

He always has a ton of fatty meat of some sort and it makes my mouth water, but, I know that all that fat causes me misery.

I'm going to Portland this weekend and am thinking crispy duck at my fav dim sum place. Will have to suffer a little I guess.
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Old 05-10-2011, 08:05 PM   #464
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Auntie Em,

I didn't understand all of that on sweeteners. I do know I would be better off without them!

Jem51 - that was a great trial on dairy! And funny on Bordain taking the medicine to keep his pork.

I'm still working on dropping the fat to see if it helps with the weight loss. I switched to sweet potatoes at the same time. It feels pretty good. This with sunlight and all the eggs, and some full-fat greek yogurt (my "sour cream" on the sweet potato) and a tablespoon of goat milk in my soup, and I am feeling pretty happy!

My current recipe for eggs is to beat 2 eggs with 2 tablespoons of gelatin, stir into boiling water removed from heat and chicken bullion (or stock broth if I am home), add chinese 5 spice and cayenne pepper and a little goat's milk. Yum!!!

I'm just not able to bring myself to eat much meat lately. I look in the meat case and walk away.

I had some smoked sardines, bones in, skin on (tails too!), for the calcium boost this week. Gosh, those weren't nearly as good as oysters! (But oysters don't have calcium.) I don't like the idea of eating out of cans (I will only do it once or twice per week), I will check the asian market again. I hope to find some frozen sardines. I just plain feel better when I eat seafood over other meats. I don't know why. Fortunately, it is high in B12.
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Old 05-11-2011, 03:35 AM   #465
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Hi, KT. Hope the trip to the Asian market is fruitful.

Jem, I'm sorry about the cold sores. I find the co helps prevent them. Hmmm, could it be sensitivity to salicylates? Hope the minimal dairy works well for you.

Best wishes to all for a day of beautiful moments.
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Old 05-11-2011, 06:45 AM   #466
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Jem- I love Anthony Bourdain, get his book on tape, it is hysterical listening to him read it, and tell all his stories, that dude has lived. He is so skinny too, just like my BF, can eat all that stuff, and not get fat, but the cholesterol can still get them.

I have CO everywhere in my house now, I am using it on my scars, I cook with it, I love it it is by far the best thing ever, I would imagine it would really help cold sores, I had like an allergic welt on my face from this face cream my Mom gave me, OMG it looked like a tumor I slathered the CO on for 2 nights and it disappeared! I cant eat it plain, but I enjoy cooking with it, I like Ghee as well
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Old 05-11-2011, 06:50 AM   #467
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Auntie Em, I'm pretty sure it's not salicylates since I take aspirin w/o any problem.

I thought it was CO specifically until I got about a week into Whole 30. I let it go since any change in diet can disrupt but after 2 wks, I knew it had to be the coconut milk which I was consuming daily.
The reason I quit Whole 30 is because w/o the coconut milk, I felt too limited.

KT, it'll be interesting to see where you end up.

Anyway, it appears that I am sensitive to some compound in coconut but can cosume some w/o problem. It has only been when the quantities have been large on a regular basis.
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Old 05-11-2011, 08:56 AM   #468
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Hi, Bejewelme.

Jem, I wish I knew what it was. I'll take a look at Emma Davie's blog and see if there is something I've missed. I'll post if I find something.

ETA: Couldn't find anything specific in Emma's blog, except a mention about high levels of polyphenols, but no details about them.

Found a couple of mentions other places of folks taking Monolaurin or Lauricidin for the benefits of coconut oil, without the high levels of arginine, which can trigger cold sores.

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Old 05-11-2011, 09:06 AM   #469
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Jem51 - I can't tolerate EVCO either. Makes my tongue and back of my throat tingle and I just feel awful when I eat it but I can do the organic refined CO. Don't know what they take out (other than the coconut flavor!) but I really feel the difference.

So is the refined still good for us as a healthy oil or am I missing any benefits using refined? I don't have any problem with butter - maybe I should just use that?

Hope you find what works for you. I'm like you would love to do even higher fat but my gut doesn't tolerate it- reflux and vomiting ooops TMI sorry!
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Old 05-11-2011, 10:13 AM   #470
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Hi, Shunsweets. Mmmm, butter is nice, I agree.

Question for the ODers, if you'd care to answer:

I've been thinking more often about the ratio of fat to protein and healing.

What have you noticed about how you feel, your energy levels, health problems, etc., clearing up at different ratios?

My height = P:1 basis of 69.55, and at Dr. K's fat ratio 2-3, that is 139-208g/FAT/d. I haven't always tracked, but if I eat the 208g/FAT/d, I gain weight. If I go below 1.5F:1P per day, I notice that I don't feel like smiling as much.

Anyone care to report on experiences with the fat ratios?

Thanks very much.

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Old 05-11-2011, 12:30 PM   #471
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Hi Auntie Em!

I am still following Dr. K's diet. (I did go off plan the last 2 weekends which was planned).

I do have more energy, I don't know if it's from the higher fat or the extra carbs. I think I should lower my fat to the 1.5 ratio so maybe I can see some weight loss. I haven't weighed myself so I don't know if I've gained. I don't think I have.

I was drinking cream and milk together with ice cold water and had no problems meeting the high fat ratio. But I need to quench my thirst with water instead because I do love the cream/milk mixture.

I am scared that eating all this fat is going to make me gain. Dr. K is so confident that the high fat will not make you gain so I'm going to give it a fair shot. I will be o.k. as long as I don't start gaining.

I just bought Julia Child's cookbook about French cooking! Hopefully there will be some good recipes in it for high fat cooking!
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Old 05-11-2011, 12:31 PM   #472
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Old 05-11-2011, 02:16 PM   #473
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Hi All! Whewww! I just finished reading through all the back posts on this thread since I haven't checked over here in over two weeks- and you ladies are the Posting Queens! Great information and links. Ty!

I am still sticking with my vlc woe and watching to keep my protein low. I get a big boost of fat from taking 1 tbsp of coconut in my tea- and i usually drink about 3 cups a day. I got onto it in early December when i did a big candida kill off and have been stuck on it since. I believe it really helps with appetite reduction. I also love it for scratchs and on my skin and scalp...

I have been thinking about the eating more plainly thing and it may really be something to that... I switched off coffee to tea because i can drink decaffinated herbal tea with out any stevia or cinnamon stick or coconut milk (like i want in coffee). It is really gonna be another mental leap to give up stevia and the "taste of sweet". I don't eat any of the LC snacks or recipes, and let dairy go (except for butter) back in December too. I know though that i must be very insulin resistant, and need to seriously look at everything that will cause me to secrete insulin. Including cigarettes. I know, I know- i HAVE to quit. I am currently saying that when i get to 279 i'll do it- so that i will have some room for a couple of rebound gain pounds and NOT go back over 300... But recently all that i have been reading about miniscule changes in your insulin levels and the fat storage/no fat burning that takes place- i am feeling like no cigs may actually help me lose weight? I know when i quit New Year's eve 1999 (i swore i wasn't smoking in the new millenium) i gained 50 pounds in the next 5 months... and even though i stayed stopped for a little over 5 years, it was struggling with a diet that i talked myself into picking them up again... I know part of why i have not been successful with quitting in the last few years is that i am afraid i will gain weight, and that is so contra to everything i am trying to do- it just sort of has a grip on me. But now i don't know... I really feel good now. I am calm, not stressed out, not struggling with my woe or hungry or craving, I am showing up at the gym for aqua aerobics 3x a week religiously- it might actually be a good time to test if i can stop smoking AND lose weight...?

Btw- i reallylike Anthony Bourdain's show too. I love the places he takes you in his segments. I wonder how high is his cholesterol? I'd bet he could get a lot of lipid profile improvement (not that it matters?) by abstaining from all the alcohol he drinks- keep the pork, limit his carbs, and lose the statins...oh well...
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Old 05-11-2011, 02:40 PM   #474
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Joannamaria, thanks for posting about the fats. I, too, find cream very easy to eat, and have to limit it.

Julie, I wish you much success.
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Old 05-11-2011, 02:53 PM   #475
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Hi All,

Hope you are doing great and continuing all that in-depth nutritional research. I truly appreciate all your posts and have already learned so much!

I too am a person who likes their hot sauce, garlic, herbs, spices. I don't think they make me overeat. I feel if I limited them, I may slip into higher-carb eating due to extreme food boredom. Which, BTW, has happened before. What living would be living if one can't enjoy their food at least a bit. I have given up so many foods already. Of course, I am sure bland food works well for many.

My DH did the shopping this week and he forgot to buy the liver!!! I was looking forward to cooking some with onions and red wine.
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Old 05-11-2011, 06:49 PM   #476
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Auntie Em, I've tried to keep to the 1.5 to 1 fat to protein ratio. I know this is Dr. K's weight loss suggestion, but it is all I can do to maintain this ratio. I don't really need to lose any more weight.

I've outlined my 3 day orgy in Las Vegas in a few threads, but in case you missed (or ignored) it, I ate 3000 calories in meat, eggs and cheese for three days last week. In addition, I drank from 9am to midnight without interruption.
I gained 7! pounds. For the 8 days since I've returned, I've lost 5 of those pounds. I'm 172 now.

I guess I'm not quite as dedicated as some. On the plus side, I'm pretty good at reversing my indiscressions.

Keytones...and other members of this thread. This is without a doubt the most educational and interesting thread on this site.

I don't post a lot, but I'm always here.
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Old 05-11-2011, 07:53 PM   #477
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Auntie Em,

Most of my weight loss has come with a lower fat level than I am eating, and I know that I need to get back to that.

I've noticed I am able to lose weight on higher fat if I really watch my calories, which is hard to stick to. I did really well when I experimented with the ketogenic diet for epileptic children. That was a couple of years ago.

When I tried it again more recently, I lost weight, but as soon as I started eating more protein, I gained the weight back quickly.

When I started Kwasniewski, I dropped a few pounds, and have not experienced any further losses, just bouncing around. A couple of road trips, I think, have interfered. I have had some digestive upsets and hives, which I think have been mostly stress related, and with all of this I have been eating a lot of fat and very little vegetable matter (which means peaceful digestion!), I decided to just wait until things settle down before I really make a big effort at weight loss. My husband has a couple of minor surgeries coming up, when that blows over, and he gets better, I will see what I can do. In the meantime, I am working on just hanging in there and learning as much as possible.

I have to say the hives really seem to be settling down. I think the switch to sweet potatoes has helped, and also knowing that my husband is going to get some help as well.

CalRon - Good to hear from you!!! I'm glad you are still reading and enjoying the thread. That is quite a compliment, I thank you. I am quite fascinated with my reading as of late, as well as so many great contributions! We have a terrific thread going.

That is amazing how quickly you dropped that gain!!! Wow, you are doing well!!!

Heh, Las Vegas, I think I would have had more treats, but that is because I don't drink. My doc says I don't have the enzymes to break down alcohol. I don't really get a buzz, I just get super ill when I drink.

Joannamaria, Julie, Eliza, and anyone I've missed - good to hear from you!

Julie - I have read that smoking suppresses insulin, I think that is a factor. Of course, so does restricting carbs. I haven't been a smoker, so I haven't looked into it.
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Old 05-11-2011, 07:54 PM   #478
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Shunsweets, there's been a discussion re coconut oil on another LC forum. It's Ray Peat's guidelines.
Anyway, Peat does say that peop can be sensitive to EVCO due to the volume of plant residue.
It is best to check the company's info on how it's processed. The organic stuff seems to be refined w/o chemicals so it is best. But always good to check.

I live near Eugene, home of mountainroseherbs and will pick some up and give it a try. It'd be nice to find it makes a difference.
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Old 05-11-2011, 08:36 PM   #479
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Hey guys...I'm so disheartened, frustrated, and tired. I've been trying not to cry for the last 7 hours or so!

I went to a new doctor today & I was actually looking forward to the visit! I prepared so carefully; wrote a list of questions & concerns, wrote down the tests I wanted to ask for, even brought in "Why We Get Fat", "The Diabetes Solution", and "The Rosedale Diet" to show him that I've really been trying to educate myself. I ended up, as I often do at the doctor's, too intimidated & angry to get the information I needed.

I wish visiting the doc was like visiting a therapist, where you actually have an hour scheduled & they're supposed to listen to you! Not interrupt you & get angry when you ask them to explain their decisions.

My doc told me to eat like a gorilla (Fuhrman diet)
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Old 05-11-2011, 09:39 PM   #480
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I don't get into it w docs at all but have been lucky to have great NP's.
They always seem to practice in a more wholistic manner.
The NP I was seeing moved and I am now scheduled to see the doc. We'll see what she says....
But I'm an RN so I am not following blindly so it all seems to work out okay.
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