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Old 05-06-2011, 01:57 PM   #421
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Clackley, I'm sorry about your mother

In the last hour or so since I posted, I have been thinking about my grandmother, who passed away at the age of 84. I know that doesn't sound tragically young, but many people on the Mexican side of my family have lived well into their late 90s!!! They lived on lard--and liver, and bone broth, and tripas, cabeza, and lengua!

Grandma was diabetic and spent many years struggling with high blood pressure and "arthuritis" I remember her switching from butter and lard to margarine, and her doctor only allowing her one egg a week.

I wonder if she would have lived longer--or at least not been so sick the last few years of her life, or if her diabetes would not have developed--if the anti-saturated fat propaganda had never proliferated.

Ever since I found out about Ancel Keys, he's been #2 on the list of People I Would Consider Assassinating If I Had a Time Machine!
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Old 05-06-2011, 01:58 PM   #422
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I think CO falls into both categories; healthy and hype.

Dr Fife is probably the one who really got it started but even he states that virus were killed in a petri dish. There is nothing concrete about virus being killed on the DNA or nerve pathways, etc, and as far as sx diminishing; viruses are just like that.
I've had AIDS pt that were at deaths door then walked out of the hospital a week later feeling great.

Dr Newport wanted her husband on a ketogenic diet but mixing CO w his morning oatmeal was easier than changing woe.
The metabolizing of CO leaves ketones same as if we burn body fat.
In other words the ketones are from the CO not because it is causing our bodies to give up fat. Peop are very confused by this and don't understand how they can be 'in ketosis' and not lose weight.
If CO is consumed, it may be only from the CO.

So, that said, CO is probably healthy to consume if one can tolerate it. But, like everything else, I really don't know for sure.....but it can't hurt, at least, one would hope.
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Old 05-06-2011, 02:13 PM   #423
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Cathy, I'm very sorry about your mother.

Jenny, I wish the your grandmother had had an old-fashioned doctor. If you do get to make that time travel trip, could you go back far enough to prevent Mr. Keys from starting his dastardly projects? Maybe he could be sent to another planet at a young age....

Jem, yes, Dr. Newport's diet for her husband is strange. I could understand VLC Paleo plus the coconut oil or MCT oil.

I forgot to post something about coconut oil. Coconut is very high in salicylates. If someone is sensitive to salicylates, it could trigger whatever troubles that person gets.
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Old 05-06-2011, 03:34 PM   #424
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Thanks for all the responses. I'm going to continue to eat CO as a healthy fat but remain skeptical of some of the miracle health claims made for it. I had read about Dr Newport and had the same thoughts that a ketogenic diet must by definition be lc and that she might simply be seeing ketones from the CO being metabolized.

I have seen kids in the hospital on strict ketogenic diets for epilepsy and autism and they did take MCT oil to increase ketone levels but also maintained a stringent lc diet. Who knows how much help the oil really was other than to make their labs look higher in ketones. Still it appears ketosis is helpful in some brain problems so maybe Alzheimer's is next on the list. My mom is in a nursing home in the end stages of dementia from vascular damage due to years of high bg levels. Hurts to think if she had just known about lc she might still have her memories today. So sad, almost criminal.

OK. Thanks again everyone. Back to lurkdom LOL.
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Old 05-06-2011, 03:38 PM   #425
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Shunsweets, I'm sorry that happened to your mother. I'm sending you both lots of good thoughts.
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:59 PM   #426
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Good evening, all!

Just wanted to share a quick mess of thoughts after commenting on another thread where someone ate an entire head of cabbage early in the day, then couldn't stop eating all day. ...

A few pages back, I commented that I'm eating smaller amounts of food--not necessarily less calories, but less bulk. I'm also eating less frequently (hardly snacking at all) & having fewer cravings. I still get hungry, and I still enjoy my food, but I don't particularly care what I eat--I'm not driven by crazy urges!

One of the anecdotes in Dr Bernstein's book is about a girl whose blood sugar was wildly out of control, and he discovered that she was eating an entire head of lettuce as a "snack". He goes on to explain that distention of the stomach causes blood sugar spikes, regardless of calorie/carb intake.

My sister--who is, effortlessly, extremely thin--once told me that she thought the "hype" of guzzling water to lose weight was counterproductive. "It stretches out your stomach, and then you have to eat more to feel full."

Think about bariatric surgery--I think she might have had something there!!!

I have always felt weird/selfish about trying to trick myself into feeling full by eating large amounts of low-calorie foods--hello, Weight Watchers? Not just from a nutritional point of view, but because a friend of mine who had just returned to the US from Nepal pointed out the absurdity of spending money on food with no calories.

umm--have to run, and I can't seem to tie this all neatly together...but I Dr B!
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:15 PM   #427
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Hello all, and welcome Shunsweets!

I hate to post and run, I had to work late, run errands, and we are headed out of town to visit the MIL for mother's day! Tired.

I always enjoy conversation on this thread! Thank you all for your posts and support and kind words.

Here's to remembering our mothers and grandmothers this Mother's Day weekend, and I am so sorry to hear, Cathy/Clackley, PirateJenny & Shunsweets. Hugs to you all

Auntie Em - Good info. on the salicylates in coconut oil!

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Old 05-07-2011, 03:29 AM   #428
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Jenny, I agree about drinking too much water all at once and the too-many LC vegs, etc. I've posted several places recently about what Dr. Bernstein has said about gut distension raising blood sugar. It's in the section of the book on Chinese Restaurant effect, pp. 95-96, and he mentions it a few other places, too. Here is the end of that section: Thus, if you eat enough to feel stuffed, your blood sugar can go up by a large amount, even if you eat something indigestible, such as sawdust. The first lesson here is: Don't stuff yourself. The second lesson is: There's no such thing as a freebie. (Except for noncaloric fluids that flow through the intestines without causing distension.) Any solid food you eat can raise blood sugar. I have heard Dr. B say, in recordings of talks, and in his monthly broadcasts, that if he ate a handful of pebbles, it would raise his blood sugar.

I think eating so that the hunger is gone, but not enough so that one feels comfortably full, is a state which can sometimes be uncomfortable or can have a bit of a frightening emptiness. Being willing to let that little bit of space and not-full feeling be there is part of what getting slender and staying slender is for me, and I've read that in quite a few posts by others. I find it means I have to follow that old saying, "Eat for your hunger, not for your appetite."

One of the things I like about my food plan is that I can tell much better when I am actually hungry, when the hunger is fed, what is thirst and not hunger, etc. There can be a bit of that empty-&-wanting-something feeling, immediately after I eat; and I'm guessing it is some kind of appetite hormone that doesn't subside as quickly as would be more comfortable. Dr. Deans has posted about this recently.

I agree about it's being absurd to spend money on food with no nourishment. And I can not afford to eat calories that do not help my health.

KT, I wish you a lovely week-end.

ETA: Dr. Michael Eades has a new post up at his blog, on the Gary Taubes' book, Why We Get Fat, and some very nice explanations. Worth looking at. I can't post the link as he has ads on his blog.

And an interesting article on phyto-toxins: Plants Bite Back: The Surprising, All-Natural Anti-Nutrients and Toxins in Plant Foods

Here is an excerpt, the section on oxalates:

OXALATES: CASTING STONES

Oxalates are indigestible compounds in foods that prevent the proper absorption of calcium. Contrary to popular belief, oxalates are not significantly neutralized by cooking. The foods highest in oxalates are soyprotein, spinach and rhubarb.77 Years ago, these rarely posed a problem because soy protein isolate had yet to be invented, and few people other than Popeye ate much spinach. Fewer still ever ate rhubarb. But as William Shaw, PhD points out (see page 40) many health conscious people now eat a gigantic spinach salad every day, thinking it’s the ticket to good health. Instead, it can be a ticket to kidney stones, vulvodynia and other oxalate-related health problems.
Other oxalate-containing foods likely to be eaten to excess are peanuts and chocolate. Given that these popular and addictive foods can represent whole food groups to vegans, caution is warranted. Although studies on rice, wheat, rye and soy indicate that phytates cause more calcium binding than oxalates, such foods are high in both anti-nutrients. Increased calcium excretion and increased oxalic acid excretion ride tandem and have been linked to osteoporosis. Finally, health practitioners treating autism have found that oxalate-containing foods must be eliminated from the diet, as well as products containing gluten, casein and soy, before any real progress can be made in treating this tragic condition.79




Hope you all are having a lovely start today.

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Old 05-07-2011, 06:02 AM   #429
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I've been thinking more about what Dr. Bernstein wrote:

There's no such thing as a freebie. (Except for noncaloric fluids that flow through the intestines without causing distension.)

I'm going to do an experiment: drinking water, tea, and the occasional decaf coffee, without cream, co, or lemon juice. Just plain. I'd like to improve insulin sensitivity, and it has come to adjusting wherever I can, as my food plan is as good as the current recommendations say to do. Dr. Blake Donaldson even told his patients to not drink seltzer water, and to not use artificial sweeteners. Anyone else who usually puts something in the water, tea, coffee, or decaf, wish to try this?

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Old 05-07-2011, 06:15 AM   #430
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I just finished Dr. Eades' blog and it was very enjoyable. Thanks for the tip Auntie Em! I am looking forward to the other links you provided - later today!

I would have to consider your proposal for liquids. I am very attached to my morning coffee/hwc and sweetener.....but I will give it some thought.
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Old 05-07-2011, 07:19 AM   #431
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Cathy, it has taken some months for me to get ready to drink my tea plain. It just worked out that my tea-drinking and Dr. Bernstein's statements fit together.

Hope your day is going very nicely.
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Old 05-07-2011, 08:41 AM   #432
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I love Dr B. However, I have experiences w foods that actually lower or do not increase BG that he would be surprised about.

Remember when fiber was the rage? I followed GO-diet for quite a while which is LC/high fiber, yogurt (they are the peop who took yogurt to the lab).....I discovered that the high fiber items had no effect which is why Dr B recommends those bran crackers.
But the kicker is that if I added bran to a higher carb item, like oat bran and made porridge, my BG would not increase noticably and at 2 hr pp would be in the 80's.
Those numbers just don't exist since I started LC back in the late 90's. And it was probably 2003ish before my fasting numbers became pre D.
Now sometimes I wonder if I am really diabetic at all or just on the wrong diet.

Obviously LC (of some sort) is the best way to go but tweaking has become necessary. Eating to meter has become mine.
(This also relieves some of the stress around good/bad food....like spinach!)

I agree w the gut distension and see this in pt as well but not BG. Just lack of motility as the gut becomes more distended. Doesn't matter how soft the stool is.
Same w starch/grain based diets. But not vegan raw fooders; I've always said that nothing stays long enough to cause these problems but there are other problems.

I just wanted to make a comment about CO; I didn't mean that it was useless and it clearly has a place in ketogenic diets for dementia, epilepsy, etc.
But the thing is that these diets don't need to be VLC/ZC if MCT/CO can achieve this.

At some point I looked over the diet for epilepsy and it did include some fruit, which surprised me. Maybe it's because otherwise it would be too strict to follow.
That was what Dr Newport decided, for sure.

It is possible that w LC, all would be right w the world even w/o supplement, but could peop stick to it?
If you poke around the LC forums long enough, you get the feeling that most cannot stick to it.
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Old 05-07-2011, 04:48 PM   #433
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Jem, thanks very much for your post. Have you read Peter Dobromylskyj's blog article on physiologic insulin resistance, in which he mentions why LCers have higher fasting blood sugar levels? Here's one, and another. He has a series on the subject. If those appeal to you, I'd be interested in your comments, if you'd care to post anything.

Very interesting about the fiber not raising blood sugar.

Do you find you have to adjust very much to eat to your meter? I've read several posts on diabetes forums of folks saying that eating-to-meter works best for them.

Do you think that gut distension causing higher blood sugar is variable depending on metabolism, pancreatic health, LC diet, etc.?

Hope your evening is going very well.

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Old 05-08-2011, 04:52 AM   #434
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KT- wanted to wish you and all the smart girls on here a Happy Mother's Day!!! I hope the families are kind to you all today!
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Old 05-08-2011, 06:52 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by piratejenny View Post
Clackley, I'm sorry about your mother

In the last hour or so since I posted, I have been thinking about my grandmother, who passed away at the age of 84. I know that doesn't sound tragically young, but many people on the Mexican side of my family have lived well into their late 90s!!! They lived on lard--and liver, and bone broth, and tripas, cabeza, and lengua!

Grandma was diabetic and spent many years struggling with high blood pressure and "arthuritis" I remember her switching from butter and lard to margarine, and her doctor only allowing her one egg a week.

I wonder if she would have lived longer--or at least not been so sick the last few years of her life, or if her diabetes would not have developed--if the anti-saturated fat propaganda had never proliferated.

Ever since I found out about Ancel Keys, he's been #2 on the list of People I Would Consider Assassinating If I Had a Time Machine!
I hear you! It is such a huge travesty, I can barely speak about it. The live's that have been negatively impacted, lost or ruined. I don't think I am overstating it. To think that my beloved Mother could have been here today to celebrate her, makes me weep.
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Old 05-08-2011, 07:12 AM   #436
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Happy Mother's Day to all Moms!

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Old 05-08-2011, 07:21 AM   #437
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Happy mom's day.
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Old 05-08-2011, 07:33 AM   #438
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I've been away for a while and you guys have posted so much interesting info in the meantime, I will be spending days going back and following all the links Thanks for your tireless research.

I have a couple of questions ....

I have bones simmering in the crockpot, broth comes out so yummy. Question: if you roast the bones, does that in any way degrade the calcium or bone marrow and what roasting temp is safe?

Liver: since its job is to cleanse, does it have any of the toxins it has cleansed out of the animal's body still in it when cooked? When I was little my grandparents used to cook liver and onions in red wine, it was OK to eat, but I never thought of cooking liver before I read the posts here.
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Old 05-08-2011, 08:15 AM   #439
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Hi Eliza! I have been wondering where you were!

Love you questions but don't have an answer.
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Old 05-08-2011, 08:51 AM   #440
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Hi Eliza! I have been wondering where you were!

Love you questions but don't have an answer.
Hi Cathy,

Hope all is well with you and your doggies are doing great. I started feeding my furbaby mostly bones and meat and eggs (she loves them raw), and she is doing just awesome. I found out Rachel Ray has a new dog food type called Just 6 (without too many fillers and just 6 ingredients) that is decent in price and eliminates most fillers that harm our dogs. I bought a bag and have been using it occasionally.

I hope someone posts about the bone roasting/liver questions. I know liver is good for us but still concerned about it having too many toxins. Otherwise I have no problem cooking or eating it.

P.S. I've been away due to being swamped and overworked at work and having some issues to deal with at home, but I'm back. Nice to know I was missed

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Old 05-08-2011, 09:02 AM   #441
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Glad you are back and you have been missed!

Dogs are doing well and glad to hear your fur baby is enjoying her new diet. I am completely opposed to prepared dog food at this point in time for my girls. One thing I haven't mentioned is that my 5 yr. had the nasty 'habit' of occasionally having mistake b.m.s in the house - always louse and watery. She was so ashamed. Well that hasn't happened since October. That is the timing that they started to go completely home made. So you can understand that I have a lot of motivation to keep them on their current regime!

It is my understanding that liver is actually 'cleaner' than muscle meat or other as it is it's job to expel toxins....
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Old 05-08-2011, 09:08 AM   #442
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Hi, Eliza. I like your questions, too. I went through Hyperlipid (Peter Dobromylskyj's blog), but didn't find anything that seemed to address those things. If the answers are there, they may be in the comments, and didn't show on the search results.

There might be posts on those questions at a carnivore or Paleo forum.

Hope you are doing very well.
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Old 05-08-2011, 09:11 AM   #443
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Thanks, Auntie Em

I will keep searching.
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Old 05-08-2011, 09:16 AM   #444
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Cathy, your poor dog, feeling so embarrassed She didn't understand she was allergic to that stuff...

It irks me when people say ....People food is bad for dogs, just give them doggie food...My SIL wouldn't let me give her dogs even a piece of meat from my plate. The poor things just watch me with those big begging eyes.

I am asking, how did "man's best friend" survive for thousands of years off of scraps from their master's table? Or in the wild? Pet food manufacturers have done a great job convincing all, including the Vet community, to perpetuate this fallacy for profit. Sad, just sad!
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Old 05-08-2011, 09:37 AM   #445
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Eliza, it is sad, isn't it? Advertising is the business of selling lies to convince folks they need things they don't, IMO.
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Old 05-08-2011, 10:41 AM   #446
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Hi Eliza! I wish I could answer your questions, but I don't really know about liver :/

A lot of people use roasted bones for broth (I think we talked about it a few pages ago), and it's a traditional way of preparing marrow bones; usually at 450 degrees. So I'm pretty sure it doesn't "degrade" the marrow, but I don't know about the calcium. Kinda doubt it, though.

When I lived in Central America, I don't remember ever even seeing dry dog food for sale anywhere! We went to the butcher's once a week and got something called "bofe de res" (oh dear...for 30 years I have not known what part of the cow that was...it's lungs!!!), boiled it in a big pot of rice, and that's what dogs ate! They loved it!!!
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Old 05-08-2011, 11:05 AM   #447
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Hi Eliza! I wish I could answer your questions, but I don't really know about liver :/

A lot of people use roasted bones for broth (I think we talked about it a few pages ago), and it's a traditional way of preparing marrow bones; usually at 450 degrees. So I'm pretty sure it doesn't "degrade" the marrow, but I don't know about the calcium. Kinda doubt it, though.

When I lived in Central America, I don't remember ever even seeing dry dog food for sale anywhere! We went to the butcher's once a week and got something called "bofe de res" (oh dear...for 30 years I have not known what part of the cow that was...it's lungs!!!), boiled it in a big pot of rice, and that's what dogs ate! They loved it!!!
Hey, thanks Jenny!
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Old 05-08-2011, 06:21 PM   #448
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Check out this thread about liver toxins, pretty good
Do toxins get concentrated in the liver? | Hunter-Gatherer

Also when I roasted the bones, after I put it in the pot to simmer, someone said to add AC vinegar to help leech the calcium, my broth was delicious, I never knew about the roasting and adding vinegar, now regular stock will never do!!!!

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Old 05-08-2011, 07:14 PM   #449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bejewelme View Post
Check out this thread about liver toxins, pretty good
Do toxins get concentrated in the liver? | Hunter-Gatherer

Also when I roasted the bones, after I put it in the pot to simmer, someone said to add AC vinegar to help leech the calcium, my broth was delicious, I never knew about the roasting and adding vinegar, now regular stock will never do!!!!

Amber
Thanks Amber , very informative! About 2 months ago someone told me about the vinegar and I've been adding it in ever since, feels good to know it get so much more calcium out into the broth.

Last edited by Eliza_Jazz; 05-08-2011 at 07:15 PM..
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Old 05-08-2011, 10:39 PM   #450
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Hello all,

Happy Mother's Day! Well, it is still Mother's Day in Seattle, late as it is!

Good to see you again, Eliza Jazz!

Here is a post by Chris Kessler, the Healthy Skeptic, on liver. I had always heard that toxins are stored in the fat. I am reading through Chris Kessler's blog as of late. This seems to be in line:

http://thehealthyskeptic.org/natures...tent-superfood

- - - - - - - -

Oh my gosh, I read such an interesting article! Hmmm, I think I might try eating the blandest foods possible after this weekend (refering to the experiment involving actual humans later in the article).

Stephen Guyenet

Whole Health Source: Food Reward: a Dominant Factor in Obesity, Part II
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Last edited by Key Tones; 05-08-2011 at 11:04 PM..
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